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Why are there more FtM asexuals than MtF?


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#31 Robotic Emu

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:31 AM

I have a theory...since trans-women are more ostracized for their identity, they are more likely to socialize on trans-related websites rather than AVEN. Many of them probably have high libidos due to unwanted testosterone.

I read sleep's anatomical theory, but it seems like most transmen here are pre-op or not planning to get srs. I definitely don't want it.

#32 SleepIncarnate

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:36 PM

I have a theory...since trans-women are more ostracized for their identity, they are more likely to socialize on trans-related websites rather than AVEN. Many of them probably have high libidos due to unwanted testosterone.

I read sleep's anatomical theory, but it seems like most transmen here are pre-op or not planning to get srs. I definitely don't want it.


That's my point, many trans men don't get genital reconstructive surgery (due to cost, effectiveness, etc.), many trans women do. There are those who can reconcile this and still live happy, sexual lives, and there are others who can't and thus live lives of celibacy. But celibate =/= asexual. As for the hormones and libido thing, that's an extreme generalization. I didn't really have much of a libido when I was under the influence of testosterone and what little I had completely disappeared after I got on hormone therapy. However, I know trans women whose libidos increased on hormone therapy, despite the massive reduction in testosterone, and live very happy sexual lives despite still having male genitals. There are trans men whose libidos never increase after starting T, some who only have brief spurts of libido, and others who are like Quagmire from Family Guy, wanting to screw anything that moves. Every person is different, every reaction to hormones is different. Labels of sexuality are just generalizations, just as there's that generalization of how hormones will affect someone.

But I do like your theory that we trans women may go to other websites. Let's take a look at societal gender stereotypes. Men are supposed to have more physical sexualities, while women are supposed to be more emotional. Being trans does not necessarily mean having a better insight into what parts of gender stereotypes are true or not, so it's entirely possible that a number of trans women who are asexual but not also aromantic just identify as straight, lesbian, bi etc., because they think that a desire for the emotional and a complete lack of desire for the physical is the standard for women. I know I certainly go to more lesbian sites and am fairly new to AVEN despite knowing I'm asexual for some time.

It may also be that because of how we are more openly ostracized within society (rather than invisible as our trans brothers are, which is a completely different form of discrimination), that more trans women go stealth. Thus, by that logic, there may be plenty of trans women on this site, but they no longer identify as trans women, but just as women, and without them being open about it, we will never know. And they avoid the trans sites and community for fear of outing themselves. This also skews any statistics there may be.

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#33 samepage1

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:18 AM

I have noticed that there are more female-born people in AVEN, and that there are a number of trans people in AVEN, so perhaps that might help explain why there are more FtM peeps in AVEN? :mellow:

On the other hand, if there are more female people on AVEN than male, wouldn't you expect more MtFs since they're female?

And, I didn't see it mentioned on here, but don't MtF persons outnumber FtM persons by something like 3 to 1, which makes it extremely astounding that there would be more FtM people on AVEN. I haven't paid much attention to the ratios on AVEN, but the claim seems tenuous to me. Then again, I find it quite astounding how few males there are on AVEN, whether cis- or trans-.

#34 Bye Bye Birdy

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:12 AM


I have noticed that there are more female-born people in AVEN, and that there are a number of trans people in AVEN, so perhaps that might help explain why there are more FtM peeps in AVEN?

On the other hand, if there are more female people on AVEN than male, wouldn't you expect more MtFs since they're female?

And, I didn't see it mentioned on here, but don't MtF persons outnumber FtM persons by something like 3 to 1, which makes it extremely astounding that there would be more FtM people on AVEN. I haven't paid much attention to the ratios on AVEN, but the claim seems tenuous to me. Then again, I find it quite astounding how few males there are on AVEN, whether cis- or trans-.


I think Kelly's point still stands. Biologically female people outnumber males on AVEN in overwhelming numbers. And yes, I'm equally astounded at the number of FtM people here, since statistically there are more MtF people in general. It does make me wonder whether asexuality is a more common phenomenon in biological females. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a connection.

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#35 Confabulase

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:12 AM

Biologically female

The biologist in me is a little bit curious: do you mean chromosomal, hormonal, gonadal, or genital sex, or secondary sex traits? Because biological sex determination is a little bit complicated, and I'm pretty confident you don't go around karyotyping everyone you meet.

#36 Bye Bye Birdy

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:22 PM


Biologically female

The biologist in me is a little bit curious: do you mean chromosomal, hormonal, gonadal, or genital sex, or secondary sex traits? Because biological sex determination is a little bit complicated, and I'm pretty confident you don't go around karyotyping everyone you meet.


I say biological merely to distinguish sex from "gender". Those who don't fit neatly into one biological sex or the other are, relatively speaking, pretty rare. I'm talking about people who were born genotypically female, with XX (or more rarely XO) chromosomes, and phenotypically female. Look, I'm not saying that there's a single trait all females share in common, I'm saying that as subsets of the human population, biological males and females have distinct differences. And there are always exceptions and outliers, of course. I'm saying most (not all) people on AVEN seem to me, from their own self reports, to be biologically female, even if their gender identity doesn't match up, and I'm just guessing that asexuality might be a more common phenomenon in the subset of the human population that was born biologically female. It might be worth investigating, no?

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#37 BaronTheCat

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

I say biological merely to distinguish sex from "gender". Those who don't fit neatly into one biological sex or the other are, relatively speaking, pretty rare.


...and unless we consider transsexualism a psychological condition (which it most likely isn't), transsexuals are among those.

I'm just guessing that asexuality might be a more common phenomenon in the subset of the human population that was born biologically female. It might be worth investigating, no?


Yup, it might. But transmen are not biologically female. They are biologically transmen.

If asexuality really is more common among people born with female genitalia, including both women and transmen, the reason can't be as simple as "people with female brains are more likely to be asexual", if you believe something along those lines. Transmen don't have female brains (though some of them are feminine, which is something different!), and they are definitely not female sexuality-wise. If they were, they wouldn't be trans.
But... they live in a society where female-bodied people are expected to be sexually submissive to male-bodied people. That, they have in common with women. I suspect that it's more likely to become if not asexual, but sex-averse, during such circumstances. Esp if you don't even feel comfortable with your female body.

#38 5_♦♣

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:39 PM

Transmen are people born female who identify as male. In other words: They are biologically female as they're born in a female body. And no one said anything about 'female brains', at least I don't think so.

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#39 SleepIncarnate

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:47 PM

Again, how do you define biology? I'm a trans woman, born physically male, but my hormone levels are those of a woman, so in that sense, I'm biologically a female. If you're talking chromosomes, then where do you classify people who are XXY, XYY, YY, assigned female at birth but with an XY, assigned male at birth but with an XX, or any of the other variations? Which most people don't know what their chromosomal typing is. If you go by secondary sexual characteristics, then I'm intersxed, with both facial hair and breasts. You get the idea.
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#40 5_♦♣

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:01 PM

I mean in the sense of being FAAB and MAAB.

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#41 SleepIncarnate

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:25 PM

How is the arbitrary designation put upon us at birth by a doctor who may or may not have half a clue what he or she is doing a matter of biology?
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#42 Confabulase

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:28 PM

Biologically female

The biologist in me is a little bit curious: do you mean chromosomal, hormonal, gonadal, or genital sex, or secondary sex traits? Because biological sex determination is a little bit complicated, and I'm pretty confident you don't go around karyotyping everyone you meet.

I say biological merely to distinguish sex from "gender". Those who don't fit neatly into one biological sex or the other are, relatively speaking, pretty rare. I'm talking about people who were born genotypically female, with XX (or more rarely XO) chromosomes, and phenotypically female. Look, I'm not saying that there's a single trait all females share in common, I'm saying that as subsets of the human population, biological males and females have distinct differences. And there are always exceptions and outliers, of course. I'm saying most (not all) people on AVEN seem to me, from their own self reports, to be biologically female, even if their gender identity doesn't match up, and I'm just guessing that asexuality might be a more common phenomenon in the subset of the human population that was born biologically female. It might be worth investigating, no?

I'll admit up front, my tolerance for essentialism is pretty limited with people who decide to start threads by using 'MtF' and 'FtM' as nouns. Using terms that avoid having to talk about trans people as people, and that let you claim assigned sex is more important than anything else, are often a good early warning sign for bigotry. It's the kind of thinking that probably confounds the answer to the very question you're trying to ask. It might be worth investigating, no?

I mean in the sense of being FAAB and MAAB.

Then you could try using those as terms. Just maybe, y'know, if it's not too much trouble.

#43 Bye Bye Birdy

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:37 PM


Biologically female

The biologist in me is a little bit curious: do you mean chromosomal, hormonal, gonadal, or genital sex, or secondary sex traits? Because biological sex determination is a little bit complicated, and I'm pretty confident you don't go around karyotyping everyone you meet.

I say biological merely to distinguish sex from "gender". Those who don't fit neatly into one biological sex or the other are, relatively speaking, pretty rare. I'm talking about people who were born genotypically female, with XX (or more rarely XO) chromosomes, and phenotypically female. Look, I'm not saying that there's a single trait all females share in common, I'm saying that as subsets of the human population, biological males and females have distinct differences. And there are always exceptions and outliers, of course. I'm saying most (not all) people on AVEN seem to me, from their own self reports, to be biologically female, even if their gender identity doesn't match up, and I'm just guessing that asexuality might be a more common phenomenon in the subset of the human population that was born biologically female. It might be worth investigating, no?

I'll admit up front, my tolerance for essentialism is pretty limited with people who decide to start threads by using 'MtF' and 'FtM' as nouns. Using terms that avoid having to talk about trans people as people, and that let you claim assigned sex is more important than anything else, are often a good early warning sign for bigotry. It's the kind of thinking that probably confounds the answer to the very question you're trying to ask. It might be worth investigating, no?

I mean in the sense of being FAAB and MAAB.

Then you could try using those as terms. Just maybe, y'know, if it's not too much trouble.


Apologies. I am new to the terminology; I don't intend to offend or demean. I had to look up FAAB and MAAB, but yes--that's really the term I was searching for. First of all, I'm just speculating because it seems that the overwhelming majority of members are FAAB, but there is a great diversity of gender identities. I haven't noticed any possible connection between gender identity and asexuality, since transmen and females don't have the same gender--just the same birth-assigned sex, so I just wonder whether there's a connection between being FAAB and being asexual. Maybe not. It's just something I was thinking about.

Nope.


#44 mycatdolores

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:14 AM

Since it's considered sexy for women to be attracted to to other women. I've lost count of the number of girls I went to high school with (and still go to college with) who claim to be bisexual but are actually doing it for the attention and/or to impress a guy. :rolleyes:


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#45 BaronTheCat

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:55 PM

Transmen are people born female who identify as male. In other words: They are biologically female as they're born in a female body. And no one said anything about 'female brains', at least I don't think so.


Nobody said anything about female brains. True. But this debate is about whether those of a certain body type are more likely to have a certain sexuality, and sexuality IS located in the brain.

You label transmen "biologically female" because of certain physical caracteristics. You make the same mistake as many others; it's easy to forget that the brain is A BODY PART as well as any other, and BIOLOGICAL as well as any other body part. Gender is a SEX CHARACTERISTIC just like hormones, genitalia, chromosomes, facial hair, breasts and so on. That it can be more fluid and sometimes hard to label, is because of the nature of the brain.Transmen are not biologically female (and not biologically male either, though I wish I was.)

The OP has a hypothesis, that there are more asexual transmen than asexual transwomen, and that this has something to do with there being more asexual women than men, and a question: why? Well, IF there is a link between body type regardless of gender, and level of sexuality, there are very few possible explanations. One is that transmen are (biologically) sexually female. But if they were, they wouldn't be trans. One is that some asexuality-gene is bound to the x-chromosome. That is not completely unbelievable, but it doesn't make transmen female anyway. Another possibility is that estrogen lowers sexuality. But as Sleep pointed out, hormones effect different individuals differently. All males have more testosterone than all females (except pre-hrt transpeople), but there are still women who are very sexual and men who are not. A third possibility is that female-bodied people have experiences that makes sex a less attractive activity (LOL) for some of them. They can become pregnant, they are expected to be submissive, many of them have experienced sexual harassment and even if they haven't, there's always the risk. Too many men don't respect their sexual integrity. Plus, men are more likely to enjoy sex physically than women, because of how their bodies function. Plus, there's stronger cultural pressure on male-bodied people to be very sexual, than on female-bodied people.

But what if the hypothesis is wrong? Maybe there really are more asexual transmen than transwomen, but it's unrelated to the number of biological females/males. Or the hypothesis could be wrong altogether.

There -seems- to be more transmen than transwomen on AVEN. What if more transwomen on AVEN are stealth? Emu said that most transguys on aven seem to be pre-op or not planning to get surgery. What if that has something to do with it? I've seen quite a few pre-op and non-op transwomen here too. Just check the avatars! I live full-time as male and I've had all the surgery and stuff. It seems my type here is as rare as full-time post-op transwomen. At least those who are open with being trans. And AVEN doesn't represent the world. What if the girls are elsewhere? And what if Sleep is right about more asexual-identified transmen being not innately asexual, but rather celibate, sex-averse, and/or asexual due to experience? I would probably not be asexual (only less sexual than most gay men) without my trans experience, but still identify as A because it's the easiest way to explain... so I'm one of those Sleep talks about.

I know A LOT of transmen outside AVEN. The GREAT MAJORITY of them are not asexual. They are normally or very sexual. I don't know many transwomen. Most of them seem to be normally sexual, though, and a few asexual (just like transmen).

#46 Bye Bye Birdy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:59 PM


Transmen are people born female who identify as male. In other words: They are biologically female as they're born in a female body. And no one said anything about 'female brains', at least I don't think so.


Nobody said anything about female brains. True. But this debate is about whether those of a certain body type are more likely to have a certain sexuality, and sexuality IS located in the brain.

You label transmen "biologically female" because of certain physical caracteristics. You make the same mistake as many others; it's easy to forget that the brain is A BODY PART as well as any other, and BIOLOGICAL as well as any other body part. Gender is a SEX CHARACTERISTIC just like hormones, genitalia, chromosomes, facial hair, breasts and so on. That it can be more fluid and sometimes hard to label, is because of the nature of the brain.Transmen are not biologically female (and not biologically male either, though I wish I was.)

The OP has a hypothesis, that there are more asexual transmen than asexual transwomen, and that this has something to do with there being more asexual women than men, and a question: why? Well, IF there is a link between body type regardless of gender, and level of sexuality, there are very few possible explanations. One is that transmen are (biologically) sexually female. But if they were, they wouldn't be trans. One is that some asexuality-gene is bound to the x-chromosome. That is not completely unbelievable, but it doesn't make transmen female anyway. Another possibility is that estrogen lowers sexuality. But as Sleep pointed out, hormones effect different individuals differently. All males have more testosterone than all females (except pre-hrt transpeople), but there are still women who are very sexual and men who are not. A third possibility is that female-bodied people have experiences that makes sex a less attractive activity (LOL) for some of them. They can become pregnant, they are expected to be submissive, many of them have experienced sexual harassment and even if they haven't, there's always the risk. Too many men don't respect their sexual integrity. Plus, men are more likely to enjoy sex physically than women, because of how their bodies function. Plus, there's stronger cultural pressure on male-bodied people to be very sexual, than on female-bodied people.

But what if the hypothesis is wrong? Maybe there really are more asexual transmen than transwomen, but it's unrelated to the number of biological females/males. Or the hypothesis could be wrong altogether.

There -seems- to be more transmen than transwomen on AVEN. What if more transwomen on AVEN are stealth? Emu said that most transguys on aven seem to be pre-op or not planning to get surgery. What if that has something to do with it? I've seen quite a few pre-op and non-op transwomen here too. Just check the avatars! I live full-time as male and I've had all the surgery and stuff. It seems my type here is as rare as full-time post-op transwomen. At least those who are open with being trans. And AVEN doesn't represent the world. What if the girls are elsewhere? And what if Sleep is right about more asexual-identified transmen being not innately asexual, but rather celibate, sex-averse, and/or asexual due to experience? I would probably not be asexual (only less sexual than most gay men) without my trans experience, but still identify as A because it's the easiest way to explain... so I'm one of those Sleep talks about.

I know A LOT of transmen outside AVEN. The GREAT MAJORITY of them are not asexual. They are normally or very sexual. I don't know many transwomen. Most of them seem to be normally sexual, though, and a few asexual (just like transmen).


All valid points! I'm really not trying to force a hypothesis on anyone, just wondering aloud...I think it's as valid a guess as any other. I think Sleep's idea is really worth thinking about, too.

And you're very right that the brain is a body part, same as any other. I completely recognize that. Transmen are not biologically female the way a cisfemale is, due to their psychology. But perhaps transmen and females have something in common that cismales do not, and perhaps it's linked to asexuality. But I don't know of any scientific studies on the matter, so your guess is as good as mine. Again, the last thing I want to do is to offend anyone, so please correct me (politely...) if I misuse terminology or otherwise misstate the facts. Thank you everyone for your input!

Nope.


#47 Skullery Maid

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:36 PM


Transmen are people born female who identify as male. In other words: They are biologically female as they're born in a female body. And no one said anything about 'female brains', at least I don't think so.


Nobody said anything about female brains. True. But this debate is about whether those of a certain body type are more likely to have a certain sexuality, and sexuality IS located in the brain.

You label transmen "biologically female" because of certain physical caracteristics. You make the same mistake as many others; it's easy to forget that the brain is A BODY PART as well as any other, and BIOLOGICAL as well as any other body part. Gender is a SEX CHARACTERISTIC just like hormones, genitalia, chromosomes, facial hair, breasts and so on. That it can be more fluid and sometimes hard to label, is because of the nature of the brain.Transmen are not biologically female (and not biologically male either, though I wish I was.)

The OP has a hypothesis, that there are more asexual transmen than asexual transwomen, and that this has something to do with there being more asexual women than men, and a question: why? Well, IF there is a link between body type regardless of gender, and level of sexuality, there are very few possible explanations. One is that transmen are (biologically) sexually female. But if they were, they wouldn't be trans. One is that some asexuality-gene is bound to the x-chromosome. That is not completely unbelievable, but it doesn't make transmen female anyway. Another possibility is that estrogen lowers sexuality. But as Sleep pointed out, hormones effect different individuals differently. All males have more testosterone than all females (except pre-hrt transpeople), but there are still women who are very sexual and men who are not. A third possibility is that female-bodied people have experiences that makes sex a less attractive activity (LOL) for some of them. They can become pregnant, they are expected to be submissive, many of them have experienced sexual harassment and even if they haven't, there's always the risk. Too many men don't respect their sexual integrity. Plus, men are more likely to enjoy sex physically than women, because of how their bodies function. Plus, there's stronger cultural pressure on male-bodied people to be very sexual, than on female-bodied people.

But what if the hypothesis is wrong? Maybe there really are more asexual transmen than transwomen, but it's unrelated to the number of biological females/males. Or the hypothesis could be wrong altogether.

There -seems- to be more transmen than transwomen on AVEN. What if more transwomen on AVEN are stealth? Emu said that most transguys on aven seem to be pre-op or not planning to get surgery. What if that has something to do with it? I've seen quite a few pre-op and non-op transwomen here too. Just check the avatars! I live full-time as male and I've had all the surgery and stuff. It seems my type here is as rare as full-time post-op transwomen. At least those who are open with being trans. And AVEN doesn't represent the world. What if the girls are elsewhere? And what if Sleep is right about more asexual-identified transmen being not innately asexual, but rather celibate, sex-averse, and/or asexual due to experience? I would probably not be asexual (only less sexual than most gay men) without my trans experience, but still identify as A because it's the easiest way to explain... so I'm one of those Sleep talks about.

I know A LOT of transmen outside AVEN. The GREAT MAJORITY of them are not asexual. They are normally or very sexual. I don't know many transwomen. Most of them seem to be normally sexual, though, and a few asexual (just like transmen).


This is a really interesting argument. I particularly appreciate that you acknowledged the role that culture/nature/social conditioning plays in psychology. Even if little Sara felt like a man since birth, little Sara was still treated like a female by everyone around her, and that does have an impact. Little Sara and little Greg were not treated the same, they did not receive the same messages, they were not socialized the same as they grew up. Therefore it doesn't surprise me if transmen may have different feelings about sexuality than transwomen, because, lets face it, sex messages are not the same for boys as they are for girls.

Like you, Baron, I know A LOT of transmen and they tend to be sexual (though I have one good friend who I wonder about their asexuality)... I don't really know many transwomen, at least not intimately enough, to estimate their sexualness.

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#48 SleepIncarnate

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 03:06 PM

This is a really interesting argument. I particularly appreciate that you acknowledged the role that culture/nature/social conditioning plays in psychology. Even if little Sara felt like a man since birth, little Sara was still treated like a female by everyone around her, and that does have an impact. Little Sara and little Greg were not treated the same, they did not receive the same messages, they were not socialized the same as they grew up. Therefore it doesn't surprise me if transmen may have different feelings about sexuality than transwomen, because, lets face it, sex messages are not the same for boys as they are for girls.

Like you, Baron, I know A LOT of transmen and they tend to be sexual (though I have one good friend who I wonder about their asexuality)... I don't really know many transwomen, at least not intimately enough, to estimate their sexualness.


Sexuality is itself extremely complex. And as you said, lots of sexual trans men, lots of sexual trans women too. Going back to hormones, testosterone is generally linked to libido, so much so that post-op trans women who haven't regained a libido and are bothered by it are often given a small dose of testosterone to re-spark it. And it's often (but not always) the case that we lose most. if not all, of our sex drive when we begin HRT because of the loss of that testosterone. If one were to go by this logic alone, then it would seem that there are less asexual trans men than trans women. However, we've seen that this logic doesn't work; hormones affect everyone differently. Some trans men get a brief 2 month burst of libido before going back to a low sex drive, others want to hump anything that moves. Some trans women lose all interest in sex, others become voracious sexual creatures.

Looking at socialization and culture growing up may give a clue, but again may not. My local trans community has two groups, one an under-30 group heavily populated by trans men 25 and under, the other a 30+ group that is mostly trans women at least 50 years old. Looking at the youth group, these guys are very definitely guys, and the few of us girls are very definitely girls (and the one genderqueer person we have is definitely a bit of both, or neither). Yet, when turning to the older group, a lot of those ladies still show very definite signs of male socialization, and I'm one of the most feminine there (and I was raised and lived even as an adult in a very male socialized culture, military). Yet the few guys in that group are very definitely guys, no matter where they are in transition. So socialization/culture has only a partial impact on gender. And even less of an impact on sexuality. Sure, women are encouraged to be submissive, especially in the bedroom, and not want sex except to have babies, but look at how sexualized our culture is, male and female.

I would say that asexuality, just as any other sexuality, manifests early, though we may try to live to societal stereotypes. Goddess knows I was very non-sexual even before HRT, with next to no libido, but I did at least try to have sex a few times before discovering I didn't like it, with either sex. I suspect it's more a matter of aversion to sex brought on by events within one's life (e.g. body issues. rape, etc.) than actual asexuality if there do appear to be more "asexual" trans men than trans women. And that AVEN is a small sampling of the overall, as BaronCat said. And many trans women here may be stealth, and others may be at other sites, more focused on their gender issues than their sexuality issues.

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#49 Bye Bye Birdy

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:25 PM


This is a really interesting argument. I particularly appreciate that you acknowledged the role that culture/nature/social conditioning plays in psychology. Even if little Sara felt like a man since birth, little Sara was still treated like a female by everyone around her, and that does have an impact. Little Sara and little Greg were not treated the same, they did not receive the same messages, they were not socialized the same as they grew up. Therefore it doesn't surprise me if transmen may have different feelings about sexuality than transwomen, because, lets face it, sex messages are not the same for boys as they are for girls.

Like you, Baron, I know A LOT of transmen and they tend to be sexual (though I have one good friend who I wonder about their asexuality)... I don't really know many transwomen, at least not intimately enough, to estimate their sexualness.


Sexuality is itself extremely complex. And as you said, lots of sexual trans men, lots of sexual trans women too. Going back to hormones, testosterone is generally linked to libido, so much so that post-op trans women who haven't regained a libido and are bothered by it are often given a small dose of testosterone to re-spark it. And it's often (but not always) the case that we lose most. if not all, of our sex drive when we begin HRT because of the loss of that testosterone. If one were to go by this logic alone, then it would seem that there are less asexual trans men than trans women. However, we've seen that this logic doesn't work; hormones affect everyone differently. Some trans men get a brief 2 month burst of libido before going back to a low sex drive, others want to hump anything that moves. Some trans women lose all interest in sex, others become voracious sexual creatures.

Looking at socialization and culture growing up may give a clue, but again may not. My local trans community has two groups, one an under-30 group heavily populated by trans men 25 and under, the other a 30+ group that is mostly trans women at least 50 years old. Looking at the youth group, these guys are very definitely guys, and the few of us girls are very definitely girls (and the one genderqueer person we have is definitely a bit of both, or neither). Yet, when turning to the older group, a lot of those ladies still show very definite signs of male socialization, and I'm one of the most feminine there (and I was raised and lived even as an adult in a very male socialized culture, military). Yet the few guys in that group are very definitely guys, no matter where they are in transition. So socialization/culture has only a partial impact on gender. And even less of an impact on sexuality. Sure, women are encouraged to be submissive, especially in the bedroom, and not want sex except to have babies, but look at how sexualized our culture is, male and female.

I would say that asexuality, just as any other sexuality, manifests early, though we may try to live to societal stereotypes. Goddess knows I was very non-sexual even before HRT, with next to no libido, but I did at least try to have sex a few times before discovering I didn't like it, with either sex. I suspect it's more a matter of aversion to sex brought on by events within one's life (e.g. body issues. rape, etc.) than actual asexuality if there do appear to be more "asexual" trans men than trans women. And that AVEN is a small sampling of the overall, as BaronCat said. And many trans women here may be stealth, and others may be at other sites, more focused on their gender issues than their sexuality issues.


Excellently put. It's definitely given me a few things to think about.

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#50 Typical Power

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:54 PM

My personal perspective: Women are more sexualized than men as objects. In the trans community a lot of trans women talk about autogynephilia. This focus is a reflection of society objectifying women as an object.

Being asexual, I didn't want to be sexualized. Therefor I had an aversion for quite some time to the idea of transitioning. I suppose it's possible that the sexualisation of being transgender would keep some asexual people with that attitude into the closet.

#51 BaronTheCat

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:24 AM

My personal perspective: Women are more sexualized than men as objects. In the trans community a lot of trans women talk about autogynephilia. This focus is a reflection of society objectifying women as an object.

Being asexual, I didn't want to be sexualized. Therefor I had an aversion for quite some time to the idea of transitioning. I suppose it's possible that the sexualisation of being transgender would keep some asexual people with that attitude into the closet.


That's an interesting point.

#52 Torus Orion

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:33 AM

I have noticed that there are more female-born people in AVEN, and that there are a number of trans people in AVEN, so perhaps that might help explain why there are more FtM peeps in AVEN? :mellow:



Ive noticed that there are more women on MOST internet sites. At least thats my experience on the diet, exercise, hobby, fitness, religion, sites I belong too. I think its because women are generally more talkative and social than males. Even on my male dominated sites there is much less activity.

I came here because I finally found something that fit the way Ive always felt. No other reason.

Also I rarely know whos what on here, since a large % make up stuff in the visible gender box. I also realize that its a fact that all websites have a % of people that use a diff ID. So Im not sure how anyone here would know how someone was born unless they state so, and even that may not be true.

Just an FYI, not all trans people ID as trans/FTM/MTF. In RT/Online I ID strictly as Male. I only mention FTM or trans status on a very few sites that openly discuss it.
So keep in mind that some of the females here may indeed be MTF, but choose not to disclose it or participate in those discussions.
Most of us have worked a long time to become ourselves, so some leave the past behind.

#53 Torus Orion

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:48 AM


Biologically female

The biologist in me is a little bit curious: do you mean chromosomal, hormonal, gonadal, or genital sex, or secondary sex traits? Because biological sex determination is a little bit complicated, and I'm pretty confident you don't go around karyotyping everyone you meet.



Great Point!

I was born Intersexed. Raised as a female, Looked masculine, mistaken for Butch, found out about being Intersexed in my 30s, and finally transitioned to Male in my 40s! Great Balls Alive! Pun fully intended! LMAO

#54 Torus Orion

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:55 AM

My guess would be that it's easier to be out as FtM than MtF. Just by the fact that women wearing men's clothes and generally being masculine is better accepted by society than the other way around. Even if a FtM doesn't pass well, he is probably less likely to get harassed. A MtF who doesn't pass well is quite likely to get a hell of a lot of negative attention.


The truth is.........

We both get harassed plenty. Esp when or if you go through that "in between stage" of looks. You dont quite look either, so dont fit in. Try going to a public toliet in that stage and see what happens! In my area even the RT FTMs plain tell you that unless you pass 100% they dont want to be seen with you. Its a hard road for us both. I dont think either had it nec harder than the other. We prob do face diff challenges at times.
Im thankful and Blessed to pass 100% now.

#55 Torus Orion

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:59 AM

Apparently it is (was?) cool/trendy/whatever to be bisexual...?


In the 90s in some US areas it was considered "chic" for straight women to experiment and call themselves "lipstick lesbians". Later they married men and forgot about it. It was very popular in Military and College settings.

#56 SleepIncarnate

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:12 PM

Just an FYI, not all trans people ID as trans/FTM/MTF. In RT/Online I ID strictly as Male. I only mention FTM or trans status on a very few sites that openly discuss it.
So keep in mind that some of the females here may indeed be MTF, but choose not to disclose it or participate in those discussions.
Most of us have worked a long time to become ourselves, so some leave the past behind.



We both get harassed plenty. Esp when or if you go through that "in between stage" of looks. You dont quite look either, so dont fit in. Try going to a public toliet in that stage and see what happens! In my area even the RT FTMs plain tell you that unless you pass 100% they dont want to be seen with you. Its a hard road for us both. I dont think either had it nec harder than the other. We prob do face diff challenges at times.
Im thankful and Blessed to pass 100% now.


This. These. Whatever. I'm so open about it because a.) I'm in that in-between place where I can't hide it, and b.) I'm an activist. And it's just as common, if not more common, for trans women to shun those of us who are not read as cis women 100% of the time (I hate the word pass, it implies that we're trying to deceive, to pretend to be something we're not). Throw in the fact that trans women, with our increased visibility, face far more physical violence in the world (a combination of transphobia, misogyny, trans misogyny, and often racism) compared to our trans man brothers and genderqueer siblings. Their invisibility is their greatest problem, but sometimes also their greater defense. Or it was until there became more prominent trans men like Chaz Bono making people realize it's not just all one way. Now violence against them is increasing (though still nowhere near the levels we trans women face). So yeah, both groups hide sometimes, just the women do it more prevalently.
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#57 Torus Orion

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:53 AM

This. These. Whatever. I'm so open about it because a.) I'm in that in-between place where I can't hide it, and b.) I'm an activist. And it's just as common, if not more common, for trans women to shun those of us who are not read as cis women 100% of the time (I hate the word pass, it implies that we're trying to deceive, to pretend to be something we're not). Throw in the fact that trans women, with our increased visibility, face far more physical violence in the world (a combination of transphobia, misogyny, trans misogyny, and often racism) compared to our trans man brothers and genderqueer siblings. Their invisibility is their greatest problem, but sometimes also their greater defense. Or it was until there became more prominent trans men like Chaz Bono making people realize it's not just all one way. Now violence against them is increasing (though still nowhere near the levels we trans women face). So yeah, both groups hide sometimes, just the women do it more prevalently.
[/quote]

None of my comments were intended to offend or place anyone/grp into a specific box. I was merely trying to educate and clarify a little, since I was seeing so many "assumptions" being made about Trans/FTMs. I feel slightly qualified to speak on behalf of at least some in that grp.
I was also posting from a personal experience position. I realize that may not be the same for all areas of the state, US, world. Different circumstances may surely result in different outcomes.

The first set of my comments quoted was simply my attempt to clarify an assumption made by some previous posts about how many males/females/trans there were on the site. I was only trying to say that really no one knows whats on this site, because so many ID differently. Point being, not all trans here may be IDing as such. I could care less how people ID, just didnt want anyone thinking the stats here are accurate.

The second set of my comments quoted was my attempt to clarify the assumption that its easier to be FTM than MTF. I stick with what I said. Its no easy road in either direction. I realize that in general there is more violence towards women in our society. In my ans I was trying to be less general and more specific to the topic of trans women vs trans men, (this includes ones that ID male/female) since that was being directly addressed.

As for violence, I think it depends on where you are, as to the criminal stats of FTM or MTF. As an ex Law Enforcement person, I can say they will vary depending on location. Stats also depend on how they are reported. One prob here in TX is that many LEOs/Depts dont specify a crime with the "hate crime" designation when its against a LBGT individual. This is an ongoing problem. I know for a FACT that here in TX, ARMY, & USAF, there are quite a few wrongly reported or not reported at all.
That is one reason it may appear to be more offenses against MTFs. FTMs or male IDing people may be a lot less willing to report, or seek med attn, or counseling. For some its bravado, fear, or in my area being Military.

As for the "fact" that FTMs face less violence than MTF, I guess I need to move to your area. That has not been my observations or experiences in the areas Ive lived, or all my male dominated occupations. Reported cases seem about even. The question I DO have, is why only MTF cases seem to make the news. Is that why it seems more prevalent? Here in SA the only cases that make local news are MTFs, yet I know of plenty of FTM cases.

The poster I was quoting was questioning FTM/MTF, but used butchs as an example. I dont think that can be done, as they are diff issues. I agree that Butches are more accepted in society than MTFs. But comparing trans people to BF is like comparing apples to oranges.
I was much more accepted as a Butch, than I am as Trans. In the Mil and on my job I was seen as a Dyke. No biggie. OMG once I transitioned it was ON! People refused to deal with me, threatened to kill me, threats of sexual assault, harassed, vandalized, spit at me, physically challenged me, made it impossible to use a restroom, refused service, etc.
In areas/grps that know Im FTM ( or while in between looks stage as well ) I have to constantly evaluate my surroundings, change routes, be vigilant for attack, always on guard verbally and physically, just like MTFs.
Until you can truly be seen as your trans gender you will prob be faced with these issues, regardless of being MTF or FTM.

Maybe there is more violence for MTFs, it would make logical sense since there are more MTFs than FTMs (vis or not). Science is just getting to where more feel comfortable physically becoming FTM. Its one reason I was in my 40s when I started. I still dont think its easier to be FTM. All the things you named in your post are faced by FTMs as well.
I just want people here to be aware that being an FTM is NOT like being Butch. We are NOT viewed or accepted the same by society. Hell, even a LOT of the Butches turn against us. I wish being FTM WAS as simple as "just putting on mens clothes".

As for activism, I stand and applaud all of you on the front lines, as well as all that came before us. Without them and you all, we would not be as far along as we are at this time. To those that know Im FTM, Im quite open to discussion. I try to educate as much as possible. I sincerely believe knowledge is key. Perhaps people will not fear so much what they understand.
Ive had a few try to make me feel guilty for my desire to live as Male instead of an open FTM. Aint gonna happen! I refuse to feel guilty. Ive lived my whole life in service to my country in Army & AF, State, LBGT, Animals, Homeless, Vets, Disaster work, etc. I made many sacrifices, and gave up the freedom to live my life just to do so. I think its time now for me to live just a little of my last yrs for myself.

Anyway, Good Luck to you Sister. Maybe together we have helped a few others to understand our lives just a little better.

#58 SleepIncarnate

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:52 PM

Not going to quote your post to reply, it's a long post, but will address it. First, trans women are victimized for being trans more often because we're more visibly trans during that limbo period, whereas you guys tend to be more easily read as either butch women or feminine men. This goes back to the very nature of masculinity and femininity in our culture; it's ok for women to be masculine, but not for men to be feminine. That's not to say that trans men aren't victimized, it happens and it is becoming more frequent, but it's still nothing compared to how often it happens to trans women.

I suspect the reason you seem to think it happens equally is because you're seeing things as they happen to you. When you look at a larger scale, national or even international, a picture begins to form. And it's not just trans men who don't want to report. Trans women are often terrified of police, especially after an incident, because police often make things worse by about a magnitude of ten. Just take a look here. And cases of trans men do get reported, as you can see in that article, as well as here and here.

The fact is, even with the increasing violence against trans men, the level of violence against trans women is magnitudes greater. This is shown through studies, reports, TDoR, etc. And even if the local police may not report it as a hate crime, if it makes it into the news, the national and international level groups will latch onto it and spread the word. As trans women, we don't just face transphobia and cissexism like you guys do. We face misogyny and trans misogyny as well. And for our sisters of color, racism as well. A bit of a disturbing fact for you. Trans women make up roughly 8% of the entire LGBT community, but we make up nearly half of the victims of murder within the LGBT community. Trans women of color are twice as likely to be victims than white trans women.

As for numbers, there's actually not more of us. More trans women undergo surgeries, sure, but the numbers are fairly equal between male and female. It may seem that there's more of us because so many trans men live as butch women until later in their lives (which is more acceptable than feminine men), and because as a community, you guys are pretty invisible, but no, there's not more of us than there are of you. Which leads to the fact that because it's more acceptable for you to be viewed as "dykes" than it is for us to be viewed as "fags" (and yes, I served as well, I know full well what it's like, everyone loved the lesbians and hated the "gay guys"), many of us transition earlier. I know that transition was the reason I left the military rather than staying another decade to retire.

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#59 Typical Power

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 02:21 AM

Thought, Autism spectrum disorders have a higher incidence of asexuality and transgenderism. FtM transgenderism is very common in female-born autism.
Perhaps there is a relationship?

#60 Professor T. Pollution

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:28 AM

Not going to quote your post to reply, it's a long post, but will address it. First, trans women are victimized for being trans more often because we're more visibly trans during that limbo period, whereas you guys tend to be more easily read as either butch women or feminine men. This goes back to the very nature of masculinity and femininity in our culture; it's ok for women to be masculine, but not for men to be feminine. That's not to say that trans men aren't victimized, it happens and it is becoming more frequent, but it's still nothing compared to how often it happens to trans women.

I suspect the reason you seem to think it happens equally is because you're seeing things as they happen to you. When you look at a larger scale, national or even international, a picture begins to form. And it's not just trans men who don't want to report. Trans women are often terrified of police, especially after an incident, because police often make things worse by about a magnitude of ten. Just take a look here. And cases of trans men do get reported, as you can see in that article, as well as here and here.

The fact is, even with the increasing violence against trans men, the level of violence against trans women is magnitudes greater. This is shown through studies, reports, TDoR, etc. And even if the local police may not report it as a hate crime, if it makes it into the news, the national and international level groups will latch onto it and spread the word. As trans women, we don't just face transphobia and cissexism like you guys do. We face misogyny and trans misogyny as well. And for our sisters of color, racism as well. A bit of a disturbing fact for you. Trans women make up roughly 8% of the entire LGBT community, but we make up nearly half of the victims of murder within the LGBT community. Trans women of color are twice as likely to be victims than white trans women.

As for numbers, there's actually not more of us. More trans women undergo surgeries, sure, but the numbers are fairly equal between male and female. It may seem that there's more of us because so many trans men live as butch women until later in their lives (which is more acceptable than feminine men), and because as a community, you guys are pretty invisible, but no, there's not more of us than there are of you. Which leads to the fact that because it's more acceptable for you to be viewed as "dykes" than it is for us to be viewed as "fags" (and yes, I served as well, I know full well what it's like, everyone loved the lesbians and hated the "gay guys"), many of us transition earlier. I know that transition was the reason I left the military rather than staying another decade to retire.

This. While your point is well-meant, Torus Orion, it ignores the reality that transwomen do in general face a harder path than transmen.

As far as the sex-based imbalances on the site, I have suspected for a long time that it's due in part to socialization of FAAB people and partly to inborn differences between FAAB people (including FtMs) and MAAB people (including MtFs). Those inborn differences could be genetic, epigenetic, etc, but it does seem like they exist. In other words, on average, FAAB individuals are more likely to join and frequent fora of this sort, regardless of their gender.

And I know many disagree strongly, but I do think that AVEN's sex (sex assigned at birth, that is) ratio imbalance might be partially due the phenomenon of younger people feeling like being FtM transgender is trendy, and/or that the label fits them even when it doesn't necessarily.
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