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Why are there more FtM asexuals than MtF?


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BaronTheCat

Thought, Autism spectrum disorders have a higher incidence of asexuality and transgenderism. FtM transgenderism is very common in female-born autism.

Perhaps there is a relationship?

That's an interesting thought and worth researching.

Professor: If there's something biological that causes the apparently higher number of FTM individuals on this site, I doubt it's something that makes us more inclined to forum activity, but rather what was first suggested; that it's more likely for XX individuals to be asexual, for some reason. But I don't think there ARE more XX than XY transpeople on AVEN. There certainly was some years ago, but lately, I've seen a more even number I think.

And as for the suggestion that many FTM individuals on this site are "transtrenders", I doubt it very much. Not because I feel personally attacked by you (I don't), but because all FTM:s that I've seen posting here seem genuinely trans and have known it for a long time.

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Robotic Emu

Hmm...I don't think that the transtrender thing is true, every transperson I have talked to here seems legit, and if somebody was picking a trendy gender identity they would probably also pick a trendy sexual orientation. I think there is probably brain chemistry or hormonal correlations between being trans and asexual. It seems like there are a lot more genderqueer/agender/neutrois people on aven than transmen or transwomen.

When I first joined aven, I identifyed as female to neutrois instead of FTM. My relationship with my body and social gender was pretty much the same...but I felt to androgynous and opposed to bottom surgery to identify as male. I was still planning on taking T and having top surgery. The line between FTN vs. FTM seems more blurred than MTN vs. MTF...and this might cause more XX individuals to discuss gender on aven.

This article argued that higher T women had less desire for partnered sex but higher libidos. Given that pretransitional transmen often have higher levels of testosterone and higher incidence of PCOS, it seems like it would apply to them also.

http://www.livescience.com/21114-testosterone-sex-drive-masturbation.html

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I've heard that mtfs more often from not feel that their femininity stems from their sexuality. Not saying this is true of all, or even if its true at all, just what I've heard.

eamonn: actually, there are twice as many mtfs as ftms.

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  • 2 weeks later...

About the ftm being trendy. Yes people do get the impression that bisexuality is this trend..and it kind of is. But hey, maybe they are just open, maybe they are unsure, maybe they think it is cool! I don't know for sure so I am not going to doubt it really just because more people come out as it.

I saw a youtube video about two girls who had been dating as males and then decided to be females again. They got so much hate. It is okay to be confused and experiment with yourself. It is also okay to change your mind.

Maybe there is a reason for this 'trend' . Lets consider a trend a sudden increase in the occurrence of something ...Lets try to take away the idea of objects being used for some fun and then thrown out (like silly bands ). Maybe some people do that, but hey it was what they wanted to do right?

Anyway, maybe it seems like a trend , being ftm, because more girls are feeling like it is okay to not feel like the usual girl? Or they just aren't sure about themselves and now that they know about it they want to try it? I really don't know the cause, but I don't like assuming that people are just doing it to do it because other people are doing it. It also sucks when people think that is definitely what you are doing.

I also repeat- it is okay to change your mind!

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i actually know more mtf than ftm and even had a mtf roommate. Though both have it hard, mtf often are not just unacceptable to main society but are targets for bullies and even murder. so some try their best not to show their true selves depending on where they are and who they are with.

as for ftm being a trend-its not, but i can see how the idea had spread. Originally mainstream society think more masculine women were in "a phase" and were just tomboys. The very meaning of tomboy was also misunderstood. What mainstream society failed to take into account was that definition changes with culture too. For example, Tomboy by definition in most english speaking countries mean a girl that tends to be like one of the guys in mannerisms and sometimes appearance though nothing to do with orientation. But in some parts of asia-like thailand- Tom's are the equivalents of butch lesbians. One side of the world saying its a style-other side of the world saying its an orientation. Since some tomboys tend to look similar to some ftm, this leaves a mess of misunderstandings.

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I think the OP meant among Asexuals, not among the general population. (And even then, I think the OP meant on here in particular not too sure about that though-I ought to go read the original post again).

Just read the original post again and yep, the OP was talking about MTF and FTM Asexuals, on here in particular.

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This. While your point is well-meant, Torus Orion, it ignores the reality that transwomen do in general face a harder path than transmen.

And I know many disagree strongly, but I do think that AVEN's sex (sex assigned at birth, that is) ratio imbalance might be partially due the phenomenon of younger people feeling like being FtM transgender is trendy, and/or that the label fits them even when it doesn't necessarily.

Professor, I deleted parts of your quote so that I could address specific areas.

I greatly respect your opinion and your right to post it, but I will just ask that we "agree to disagree" with your first statement above.

In my comments I already stated that it may be true women/MTFs face more violence using the current incorrect reporting system.

However, I can not agree that one has it easier than the other. I do not believe its accurate or fair to say that one specific item out of the whole transition process can be pointed too as making it easier/harder as a whole, which was the point the OP was trying to make.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say MTFs have some challenges that are harder, with violence being an example. In all honesty the only reason I even replied to the discussion (OP), was because I found the use of the word / connotation of easier to be offensive. Then to use a single point out of hundreds of transition challenges faced by both, to make the assumption is absurd. There is NOTHING easy about changing you body, mind, and life. Its just that we have some different hurdles to cross.

To your last point, I agree whole heartedly.

I dont know about the "trendy" aspect, but a big YES to people of all ages throwing around the term FTM when it doesnt fit.

Up until a few yrs ago FTM was always used to denote a person that had underwent some type of physical body changes. TG was used for those Butches and others that just felt male or wanted to ID as male for their own reasons. Then over the last few yrs., as the internet grew, so did this new explosion of new "labels", and the misuse of others.

Now on some sites I see Butches that look totally female strutting around calling themselves FTM and demanding to be called Mr. They will say they have no intention of having surgery, using hormones, or making any real changes. They say they are claiming their masculinity. No problem, but that is not FTM. What is so wrong with being called Butch or TG?

Its very much like MTFs I know having to defend themselves and explain the difference between being transexual and being a transvestite. Wearing mens clothes and calling yourself Mr. doesnt make you FTM, just like a man wearing makeup and a dress doesnt make him MTF.

It muddies the water, causes more strife, confusion, and in this area causes more violence. It makes trying to educate people, get justice and equal rights very hard.

Ive noticed now when you look up the definition it has been changed. Maybe thats why so many younger people are using FTM. The new def. is so broad, it covers anyone with masculine feelings. Deciding to change your body goes much deeper than makeup and clothes, or wanting "to claim your masculinity". Most of us know we were born in the wrong body, and felt that way forever. We are not "claiming our mas/fem" as men and women. We feel as though we are Men & Women. We are not content to look one way and demand to be called something else. For us we can not be complete w/o the physical change and living life as we should.

Anyone can call themselves anything they desire. But its a bigger step to go to the next level and actually make physical changes that are mostly permanant. We cant just change clothes and go back to being called something else when it suits the situation. I think its that element of permanance thats the factor.

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  • 2 weeks later...
AsexualTransWoman

Just a simple question.

FtM asexuals seem to vastly outnumber MtF asexuals, at least here. Also, the only asexual I've met in person is FtM.

Why is that?

I don't know for certain why this is the case, but as an asexual trans woman I can hazard an educated guess.

If a trans man is getting regular T shots and this isn't causing a surge of desire for sexual activity, sexual people are more likely to take his asexual identification seriously.

But if a trans woman expresses no interest in sex, sexual people are more likely to think "not enough T", "bad experiences with tranny chasers", "lower dysphoria", etc.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It seems to me that society is more accepting of FtM than it is of MtF. If a biofemale wears khakis and a collared shirt, they don't get too many strange looks. But if a biomale wears a dress, people act as if they're diseased. There's a serious double standard, where biomales are expected to stick to the predefined gender roles a lot more closely than biofemales.

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Calligraphette_Coe

It seems to me that society is more accepting of FtM than it is of MtF. If a biofemale wears khakis and a collared shirt, they don't get too many strange looks. But if a biomale wears a dress, people act as if they're diseased. There's a serious double standard, where biomales are expected to stick to the predefined gender roles a lot more closely than biofemales.

It probably has to do with almost all present societies being patriarchal. I think if that were reversed, it would be FTMs in a matriarchal society who be subjected to the double standards, especially if hierarchy were inherent in the gestalt of that culture.

I also can't help but notice that, as usual, no allowance is made for people who fall in the no man's land of the false binary (sorry, bad pun), however small their number is. If you're androgynous, it's pretty much "Pick a side and stick with it (and it better be the one your physical sex assigns you to." I guess it will never be about freedom, only "The needs of the larger many outweigh the needs of the smaller few."

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Great Thief Yatagarasu

Thought, Autism spectrum disorders have a higher incidence of asexuality and transgenderism. FtM transgenderism is very common in female-born autism.

Perhaps there is a relationship?

That's an interesting thought and worth researching.

Professor: If there's something biological that causes the apparently higher number of FTM individuals on this site, I doubt it's something that makes us more inclined to forum activity, but rather what was first suggested; that it's more likely for XX individuals to be asexual, for some reason. But I don't think there ARE more XX than XY transpeople on AVEN. There certainly was some years ago, but lately, I've seen a more even number I think.

And as for the suggestion that many FTM individuals on this site are "transtrenders", I doubt it very much. Not because I feel personally attacked by you (I don't), but because all FTM:s that I've seen posting here seem genuinely trans and have known it for a long time.

Sadly enough, Professor Simon Baron-Cohen (a leading expert on autism, and the guy who personally assessed me and some of the people I know) did a study which showed that FtM trans people have a higher rate of autistic traits...but his conclusion is horrifyingly cissexist. He pretty much claims that autistic girls are more likely to socialise with boys and have male interests, and that this can convince them that they're trans, and their autistic traits also make them so convinced of this that they go and transition. In other words, autistic FtM trans people aren't really trans, they're just confused and their autistic brains make them believe something that isn't true.

Fuck THAT noise.

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Sadly enough, Professor Simon Baron-Cohen (a leading expert on autism, and the guy who personally assessed me and some of the people I know) did a study which showed that FtM trans people have a higher rate of autistic traits...but his conclusion is horrifyingly cissexist. He pretty much claims that autistic girls are more likely to socialise with boys and have male interests, and that this can convince them that they're trans, and their autistic traits also make them so convinced of this that they go and transition. In other words, autistic FtM trans people aren't really trans, they're just confused and their autistic brains make them believe something that isn't true.

Fuck THAT noise.

I found the study you mentioned (in the future, if you could link to any studies you reference, that would be very helpful!): http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2011_Jones_transsexualautism_JADD.pdf

This, I take it, is the "horrifyingly cissexist" conclusion:

These are chromosomally female

individuals, who have felt masculinized since childhood,

and rather than simply assuming the GID is the primary

problem, the link between autistic traits and GID should be

explored. Clinically, even if only for a minority of individuals considering sex reassignment surgery (SRS), the

formulation of undiagnosed AS might be a helpful alternative to explore. Score on the AQ need not affect whether

the individual continues on their chosen path for SRS but

may help the person in examining the reasons behind their

choices and consequently make better informed decisions

about treatment and physical interventions.

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But if a trans woman expresses no interest in sex, sexual people are more likely to think "not enough T",

All the MTF's I've known who lacked interest in sex believed it was because of taking T blockers. Or at least that's what they said.

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Great Thief Yatagarasu

Sadly enough, Professor Simon Baron-Cohen (a leading expert on autism, and the guy who personally assessed me and some of the people I know) did a study which showed that FtM trans people have a higher rate of autistic traits...but his conclusion is horrifyingly cissexist. He pretty much claims that autistic girls are more likely to socialise with boys and have male interests, and that this can convince them that they're trans, and their autistic traits also make them so convinced of this that they go and transition. In other words, autistic FtM trans people aren't really trans, they're just confused and their autistic brains make them believe something that isn't true.

Fuck THAT noise.

I found the study you mentioned (in the future, if you could link to any studies you reference, that would be very helpful!): http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2011_Jones_transsexualautism_JADD.pdf

This, I take it, is the "horrifyingly cissexist" conclusion:

These are chromosomally female

individuals, who have felt masculinized since childhood,

and rather than simply assuming the GID is the primary

problem, the link between autistic traits and GID should be

explored. Clinically, even if only for a minority of individuals considering sex reassignment surgery (SRS), the

formulation of undiagnosed AS might be a helpful alternative to explore. Score on the AQ need not affect whether

the individual continues on their chosen path for SRS but

may help the person in examining the reasons behind their

choices and consequently make better informed decisions

about treatment and physical interventions.

Maybe that's the long version, but here's the version I found (in this article here):

Girls with a higher than average number level of autistic traits tend to have male-typical interests, showing a preference for systems over emotions...They prefer not to socialise with typical girls because they have different interests, and because typical girls on average have more advanced social skills. ...Both of these factors may lead girls with a higher number of autistic traits to socialize with boys, to believe they have a boy’s mind in a girls’s body, and to attribute their unhappiness to being a girl. ...If such girls do believe they have a boy’s mind in a girl’s body, their higher than average number of autistic traits may also mean they hold their beliefs very strongly, and pursue them to the logical conclusion: opting for sex reassignment surgery in adulthood. ...The awareness of the presence of autistic features may help these young people to explore the reasons behind their perceptions, and help them make more informed decisions about treatment.

Which I just read as "If you're an autistic FtM, then don't bother getting treatment for it, because you're probably WRONG and your poor little autistic mind is just hopelessly confused."

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