• Announcements

    • Kisa the Krampus

      World Watch Archiving Project

      Hello everyone, Please read this thread before posting to World Watch Thank you.
    • Kelly

      New team members needed   12/01/16

      Voting has started.  See:   http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/151245-new-project-team-member-needed-resources-and-survey-director-voting/ http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/151372-new-declass-team-members-needed-new-voting-thread/  
    • Kisa the Krampus

      Avenues Jan/Feb 2017   01/09/17

      The newest issue of Avenues is out Jan/Feb

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Daisy G.

Homosexuality and Religion

79 posts in this topic

In my opinion, Christians who bash LGBTQ+ people and demonize them aren't behaving like true Christians. Yes, a lot of denominations believe that homosexuality is a sin, but most also believe that every single person is a sinner. They should be accepting and understanding. It's too bad that a lot of radical (because that's what they are, if they're demonizing the people themselves) church figures choose to voice their disagreement with homosexuality through vile, and hateful terms. It makes all Christians look bigoted.

That said, I think dismissing religion and faith as a whole is just as bad as dismissing asexuality, or homosexuality, or whatever other orientation you may have. People have done some horrible things in the the name of faith, but people will do horrible things in the name of just about anything. It doesn't make faith in itself wrong.

I identify myself first as a follower of Jesus before I do as an asexual. It's a major part of who I am. And I don't see anything wrong with asexuality in terms of Christian faith - I always just considered myself celibate, before I found out that I fit the dictionary definition of asexual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, Christians who bash LGBTQ+ people and demonize them aren't behaving like true Christians. Yes, a lot of denominations believe that homosexuality is a sin, but most also believe that every single person is a sinner. They should be accepting and understanding. It's too bad that a lot of radical (because that's what they are, if they're demonizing the people themselves) church figures choose to voice their disagreement with homosexuality through vile, and hateful terms. It makes all Christians look bigoted.

That said, I think dismissing religion and faith as a whole is just as bad as dismissing asexuality, or homosexuality, or whatever other orientation you may have. People have done some horrible things in the the name of faith, but people will do horrible things in the name of just about anything. It doesn't make faith in itself wrong.

I identify myself first as a follower of Jesus before I do as an asexual. It's a major part of who I am. And I don't see anything wrong with asexuality in terms of Christian faith - I always just considered myself celibate, before I found out that I fit the dictionary definition of asexual.

YES!! well said, Daisy G!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was raised Christian my whole life. I am a confirmed member of the area Lutherin church. I no longer believe in god.

The Lutherin church thingy which my church is apart of allows homosexuals to be pastors at their churches. Yet, when our pastor left the call commitee (the ones incharge of looking for a new pastor) very activly worked not to have a homosexual pastor.

With their comments, looks and demeaning ways they have chased two gay guys out over time. One last year and one three years ago. The guy's family also no longer attend.

TL;DR The sect ( I think that's the word) my church belongs to allows and does not condem other sexualities. The majority of the members, on the otherhand, do. I think I know 15 people in that church that don't.

It saddens me to think that before highschool that I was one of those people, because that was what I was taught.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I grew up Lutheran and one Pastor at my church was gay. Nobody really had a problem with that (or at least never said they did). Some religions are much more tolerant than others. I guess I'm just lucky I grew up in a tolerant one. I never even knew that some sexual orientations weren't accepted in certain religions until I was about 13. It was a shock when I found out. I couldn't believe the irony that a group of people preaching love and peace could be so hateful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, although the bible says some stuff about homosexuality and blargh, it only ever mentions it in the form of sex/rape, so I don't see anything wrong with two people of the same gender simply loving each other, the bible supports loving other people, it doesn't say there is a 'right' or 'wrong' way to love someone.

I'm not a theologist so I can't really comment much on what kind of love is referenced for example in the bible: is it sexual love, romantic love, platonic love (brotherly/sisterly), or is love being used to refer to acceptance in general.

It still seems to me that for example in the bible love is being used as a universal term that encompasses all kinds of love. There seem to be passages that condemn the "love" between two homosexuals. Indeed, does love refer to sexual relationship, romantic relationship, or what??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BIBLE QUOTE LEVITICUS

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

That's from the Jewish scriptures -- the Torah. It was written (by men) at a time when the idea was to propagate the earth, and obviously men having sex with men don't bring more children.

All religious scriptures have to be taken in the context of when they were written.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the acts that we have a problem with, not the people.

That puzzles me, because gay people don't do anything straight people don't also do...

Not so. Homosexual relationships and the acts performed within (i.e. sex (or even just kissing etc) with another person of the same sex) are what I was referring to, which most heterosexual people do not do. I have nothing against homosexuals as individuals, just so long as they don't act on their desires and temptations.

In saying that, I won't condemn people for doing so; it's not my place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so. Homosexual relationships and the acts performed within (i.e. sex (or even just kissing etc) with another person of the same sex) are what I was referring to, which most heterosexual people do not do. I have nothing against homosexuals as individuals, just so long as they don't act on their desires and temptations.

In saying that, I won't condemn people for doing so; it's not my place.

You have no idea how many heterosexuals have anal sex with each other.

I assume you have something "against" a homosexual who does act on their desires and temptations? Would you agree that said homosexual has the right to have something against you if you act on your desires and temptations also?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the acts that we have a problem with, not the people.

That puzzles me, because gay people don't do anything straight people don't also do...

Not so. Homosexual relationships and the acts performed within (i.e. sex (or even just kissing etc) with another person of the same sex) are what I was referring to, which most heterosexual people do not do. I have nothing against homosexuals as individuals, just so long as they don't act on their desires and temptations.

In saying that, I won't condemn people for doing so; it's not my place.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm

I'm quite in touch with the Holy Spirit to the best of my abilities. I do not feel that liking women is a choice -or- a sin. I do firmly agree it is a mistranslation.

PS The Bible states directly that 'there is neither man nor woman, rich nor poof, slave nor owner in the Kingdom'. If gender doesn't exist to Jesus, then it doesn't exist tome either. Can't have homosexuality without gender.

Let me dig up the quote ; D its there and plain as day, hun.

Edit:

http://bible.cc/galatians/3-28.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS The Bible states directly that 'there is neither man nor woman, rich nor poof, slave nor owner in the Kingdom'. If gender doesn't exist to Jesus, then it doesn't exist tome either. Can't have homosexuality without gender.

I assume you're not English and thus you meant "poor".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS The Bible states directly that 'there is neither man nor woman, rich nor poof, slave nor owner in the Kingdom'. If gender doesn't exist to Jesus, then it doesn't exist tome either. Can't have homosexuality without gender.

I assume you're not English and thus you meant "poor".

-snort- typo. XDDD I will not edit that; just for the LOLs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS The Bible states directly that 'there is neither man nor woman, rich nor poof, slave nor owner in the Kingdom'. If gender doesn't exist to Jesus, then it doesn't exist tome either. Can't have homosexuality without gender.

I assume you're not English and thus you meant "poor".

-snort- typo. XDDD I will not edit that; just for the LOLs.

Aha -- you are English.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But anyway.

I don't see why He would judge us by our shell. It is just a house for the soul. WhenI read that verse, what I get is that our hearts are the same. That, we can all be different in the physical, but we are equal in the spiritual; there is no distinction in the spiritual. Sin does not carry more or less weight depending on gender. Nothing I can think of would even matter about gender. I think God creates you a certain way for His plan, such as rich or poor or male or female, but at the end of the day everything is equal. I dont see souls having gender, to be honest. I do not think of my special girl and think 'oh yes, female'. I forget. Sometimes I'm like 'o.o oh. She's...a she.' Because a soul doesnt play by the rules of the physical. And I believe God views gender as the same as rich or poor; a circumstance, but it shouldnt and doesnt define who you are.

PS The Bible states directly that 'there is neither man nor woman, rich nor poof, slave nor owner in the Kingdom'. If gender doesn't exist to Jesus, then it doesn't exist tome either. Can't have homosexuality without gender.

xD Yeah. I just speak Swedish, Finnish, and a bit of Danish; my grammar was lost with each language, so I appear foreign.

I assume you're not English and thus you meant "poor".

-snort- typo. XDDD I will not edit that; just for the LOLs.

Aha -- you are English.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so. Homosexual relationships and the acts performed within (i.e. sex (or even just kissing etc) with another person of the same sex) are what I was referring to, which most heterosexual people do not do. I have nothing against homosexuals as individuals, just so long as they don't act on their desires and temptations.

In saying that, I won't condemn people for doing so; it's not my place.

You have no idea how many heterosexuals have anal sex with each other.

I assume you have something "against" a homosexual who does act on their desires and temptations? Would you agree that said homosexual has the right to have something against you if you act on your desires and temptations also?

It's not about how they have sex, but who it's with. Also, again, it's not something against the PERSON but it's their ACTIONS I take issue with. As I said, it's not my place to condemn people. I might not like what they're doing but "love thy neighbour" applies.

It's the acts that we have a problem with, not the people.

That puzzles me, because gay people don't do anything straight people don't also do...

Not so. Homosexual relationships and the acts performed within (i.e. sex (or even just kissing etc) with another person of the same sex) are what I was referring to, which most heterosexual people do not do. I have nothing against homosexuals as individuals, just so long as they don't act on their desires and temptations.

In saying that, I won't condemn people for doing so; it's not my place.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm

I'm quite in touch with the Holy Spirit to the best of my abilities. I do not feel that liking women is a choice -or- a sin. I do firmly agree it is a mistranslation.

PS The Bible states directly that 'there is neither man nor woman, rich nor poof, slave nor owner in the Kingdom'. If gender doesn't exist to Jesus, then it doesn't exist tome either. Can't have homosexuality without gender.

Let me dig up the quote ; D its there and plain as day, hun.

Edit:

http://bible.cc/galatians/3-28.htm

That verse speaks to me more about equality. Remember that back when that was written, women didn't have the rights they do today. It was very much a man's world. That verse (in my interpretation) is saying that in God's eyes that inequality doesn't exist, not gender doesn't exist. However, I don't feel a debate is necessary or appropriate on this topic here, seeing that the thread is about religion and asexuality, not religion and gender or religion and homosexuality etc.

Edit: Sorry about the double post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope the OP and the members who posted in this thread don't mind, I fell in love with both conversations (asexuality and religion, and homosexuality and religion) and I'd like both of them to have the right space to go on without confusion. So I'm gonna quote a few posts that I find useful but were useful here as well, to bring the relevant bits about homosexuality to the new thread, and leave the original posts that discussed bot h topics here. Then i'm gonna split the 2 conversations, and link the one about homosexuality and religion, which will be hosted by Philosophy, Politics and Science Forum.

As for homosexuality

BIBLE QUOTE LEVITICUS

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Slightly grim don't you think? :mellow:

I wonder though, why so much hate for homosexuals, no matter what sin you commit, the punishment will be the same. God doesn't seem to differentiate, finite sin is a infinite insult to the infinite god etc... So when you lust for another, or even lie you've committed an infinite insult to god. I they should stop and worry about their own asses.

Islam is quite encouraging of heterosexual sexual relationships (within the context of marriage) - and it is something which is to be enjoyed (not simply for children as in Catholicism). Also, asceticism is generally frowned upon apart from in some Sufi sects.

However, any sexual relationships outside of marriage or which are not heterosexual are strongly discouraged

I am part of the episcopal church, and we actually have a gay bishop. :D The South part of our church really does need to work on accepting gay people, but all the episcopal kids down in the South where I live have no problems with gay relationships. Our parents on the other hand...

Note on that passage in Leviticus: turns out if you read the original Hebrew, it wasn't abomination in reference to homosexual acts. It was forbidden, and the word has no positive or negative connotations. If you go to Israel today, the same word would be used to get you to stay off the grass. It is an abomination to walk on this grass. :lol:

Ok, i hope this is not too confusing and we can start a good conversation about this topic. Link to the original thread: Asexuality and Religion.

Moving this thread to Philosophy, Politics and Science Forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, Christians who bash LGBTQ+ people and demonize them aren't behaving like true Christians.

How do you square this No True Scotsman argument with Leviticus 20:13? "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." The loving God of the Pentateuch speaks in no unclear terms that he abhors homosexual behaviour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the acts that we have a problem with, not the people.

That puzzles me, because gay people don't do anything straight people don't also do...

Not so. Homosexual relationships and the acts performed within (i.e. sex (or even just kissing etc) with another person of the same sex) are what I was referring to, which most heterosexual people do not do. I have nothing against homosexuals as individuals, just so long as they don't act on their desires and temptations.

In saying that, I won't condemn people for doing so; it's not my place.

You just did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, Christians who bash LGBTQ+ people and demonize them aren't behaving like true Christians. Yes, a lot of denominations believe that homosexuality is a sin, but most also believe that every single person is a sinner. They should be accepting and understanding. It's too bad that a lot of radical (because that's what they are, if they're demonizing the people themselves) church figures choose to voice their disagreement with homosexuality through vile, and hateful terms. It makes all Christians look bigoted.

Gee. That's really interesting. If you're right, I don't think I've met anyone--and I mean anyone--who behaved like a "true Christian", being all accepting and understanding of everyone around them.

For one thing, we're supposed to be understanding, but never anywhere does it say we're just supposed to sit back and say "Dude, no big deal. You sin; I sin; we're forgiven; no sweat." We're supposed to call people out on stuff (privately, humbly, and lovingly, which I know a lot of people screw up, but I could go into a cycle of disclaimers about human nature here). Not doing that might give the impression that sinful behavior is approved. We're not supposed to sit back and just think sinning's groovy and we don't have to worry about it 'cause Jesus died. We're supposed to be making an effort to do right and not sin, and helping others out with the same goal. On the other hand, bashing and demonizing is going overboard and people who do it need to be corrected.

One caution: be careful about saying who is or isn't behaving like a true Christian. X is acceptable, Y is not, Z is, and so on, the list can become rather insidious. A true Christian isn't measured by behavior, regardless of what ATI and a number of other groups say. Focusing on behavior is inconsistent with an understanding of how sin works and how grace fits into things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, Christians who bash LGBTQ+ people and demonize them aren't behaving like true Christians.

How do you square this No True Scotsman argument with Leviticus 20:13? "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." The loving God of the Pentateuch speaks in no unclear terms that he abhors homosexual behaviour.

God isn't talking about homosexual behaviour as it is today, he's talking specifically about pederasty, which is a whole 'nother topic. It should also be taken in context of the times, when having lots of kids was a good thing and desirable for the family and for the faith (and homosexual acts didn't result in procreation). I'd argue that having lots of kids is slightly less important today, so I'd throw the whole homosexuality and birth control arguments right out the window, personally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an excellent challenge to the traditional interpretation of the Bible regarding homosexuality, from a friend of a friend at Harvard. I highly recommend a full reading, if you have the time. In a very thorough and scholarly way, the author addresses the main scriptures commonly cited in such debates.

http://matthewvines.tumblr.com/

Although I don't think his argument is 100% flawless, I nevertheless find it extremely convincing within the parameters of Protestant Christianity.

That's a fantastic link! Thanks for sharing it. I study theology, and whilst I don't believe homosexuality to be inherently sinful, I'm often confronted with people who do, and this is a really nice discussion on their terms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people misunderstand the teaching, so hopefully I can explain it.

The Bible is clear that the act is forbidden. That has nothing to do with being attracted to one sex or the other. If a man does not wish to marry a woman, or vice versa, then he is to remain celibate, whatever the reason. All sex outside marriage is forbidden.

Some might ask me, what about same-sex marriage? We believe that the reason God made marriage is to start families. God could have made us reproduce like plants. Hence, the purpose of getting married is to have children. Homosexual acts are closed to the gift of life (while infertile straight couples can still have children, just with a low probability). It follows that a man can only marry a woman (and vice versa), because he cannot reproduce with anyone (or anything) else.

Therefore homosexual acts fall under the category of fornication, which is sin. People who hate homosexuals (hate is also forbidden, by the way) somehow give straight people who fornicate more leeway than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people misunderstand the teaching, so hopefully I can explain it.

I don't know if you meant this, but this makes it sound like you, personally, believe to know for sure the right interpretation of the Bible, when there are many.

The Bible is clear that the act is forbidden. That has nothing to do with being attracted to one sex or the other. If a man does not wish to marry a woman, or vice versa, then he is to remain celibate, whatever the reason. All sex outside marriage is forbidden.

So if a woman loves another woman, or a man another man, they can be a couple (out of marriage) but they can't have sex together, basically?

Some might ask me, what about same-sex marriage? We believe that the reason God made marriage is to start families. God could have made us reproduce like plants. Hence, the purpose of getting married is to have children. Homosexual acts are closed to the gift of life (while infertile straight couples can still have children, just with a low probability). It follows that a man can only marry a woman (and vice versa), because he cannot reproduce with anyone (or anything) else.

Many many man and women get married and DECIDE not to have children, for many different reasons. Please, if you can, reply these questions about marriage without children for choice:

1- Is it a sin? Will God punish them?

2- Is their marriage considered inferior than a marriage with children?

3- Is marriage's only purpose the one to have children? or is it ALSO the one to love and respect and take care of each other as a couple?

4- If you think the answer that marriage's purpose is not only children, can't 2 people of the same sex love each other the same as 2 people of different sex?

Therefore homosexual acts fall under the category of fornication, which is sin. People who hate homosexuals (hate is also forbidden, by the way) somehow give straight people who fornicate more leeway than that.

So, as I told you in the other thread, sexual orientation is not a choice. Basically this means that God will create me with an orientation just to then forbid me to act on this orientation? To forbid me to have one of the most common ways to share love (sexual intimacy) with the person I was born to be attracted to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, all Catholics know the proper interpretation of the Bible, because God gave us the Church to tell us. It was, after all, the Church that decided which books would be considered Scripture, and if the Bible is infallible, so is the Church that put it together.

The Church forbids contraception, so that takes care of some of your questions. And not everyone is called to marriage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yay, heterosexism.

So, the people who say sex with a person of the same gender is evil and smugly point at Leviticus, do you also stick with everything else Leviticus dictates? Like killing and banishing people? Not eating shellfish and pork?

Also, there's that thing about Ruth having loved Naomi as Adam loved Eve, and Christian weddings having borrowed Ruth's vow to Naomi since forever: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/ruth_naomi.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, all Catholics know the proper interpretation of the Bible, because God gave us the Church to tell us. It was, after all, the Church that decided which books would be considered Scripture, and if the Bible is infallible, so is the Church that put it together.

The Church forbids contraception, so that takes care of some of your questions. And not everyone is called to marriage.

Ouch, you see yourself as a god if you think that you know what is the right interpretation of the bible. There are countless interpretations of this writing as there countless different churches one for each sect of christianity. Who are you to say which interpretations are right and which are wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, as I told you in the other thread, sexual orientation is not a choice. Basically this means that God will create me with an orientation just to then forbid me to act on this orientation? To forbid me to have one of the most common ways to share love (sexual intimacy) with the person I was born to be attracted to?

There's a big problem with this idea, Ith. If people have no choice at all in their sexual orientation, no choice in who they're attracted to, does that imply no choice in what actions they take? "I am a gay male" automaically equals "I must have sex with guys and only guys"? If that's the case, what about pedophiles or serial killers, who are also born with ingrained and unchangeable desires. Does that give them a free pass because they didn't choose to want to do those things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I see myself as following God. I learned the correct interpretation through His Church.

The Catholic Church claims to be the voice of God. This is either true or it's blasphemy, just like when Jesus claimed to be God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If people have no choice at all in their sexual orientation, no choice in who they're attracted to, does that imply no choice in what actions they take? "I am a gay male" automaically equals "I must have sex with guys and only guys"? If that's the case, what about pedophiles or serial killers, who are also born with ingrained and unchangeable desires. Does that give them a free pass because they didn't choose to want to do those things?

Of course not. Orientation does not equal behavior. Orientation is feeling; behavior is doing.

No, I see myself as following God. I learned the correct interpretation through His Church.

The Catholic Church claims to be the voice of God. This is either true or it's blasphemy, just like when Jesus claimed to be God.

Jesus never claimed to be God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, Jesus did claim this. "I and the Father are one." "Before Abraham was, I am." ("I am" is God's name for Himself, given in Exodus.) "I am the way, the truth, and the life." "I am the Good Shepherd." And so on.

I notice you didn't address the fact that the Church claims to speak for God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.