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Older Virgins were Laughed At Today......


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If I were a virgin I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in today, but I like the way your brain works. :rolleyes: But "now people are giving that gift freely to so many people it just defeats the purpose" isn't it a gift that can only be given once? inquiring minds want to know.

I applaud those folks that have had the gumption to know what they wanted and to stick to it, and it doesn't take religious vows to get there.

Thanks for you insight. :cake: :cake:

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I reject the notion that society states that you must have sex by a certain age or else you're labeled "weird". Individuals might think that, and it may be a familiar plot element in movies/books/etc., but I firmly believe that the vast majority of society simply doesn't care about your (plural) sexual life or lack thereof. To the idea that "a virgin would be boring in bed", I agree... kind of. But I think that boring is the wrong word; I think instead of "boring", it's meant they are simply "inexperienced" which is a tautology. That doesn't mean that the second time you have sex it will be any less "boring", but as you gain experience you become better at the activity-the same with everything else.

Thank you....I have been wondering why people thinks virgins would be boring in bed unless they are given a chance to learn (like a job interview, as some people stated), they can get better. I do agree with you on that one. :)

I have no idea why virginity would be valued. What's so special about it? Every animal reproduces sexually with many requiring sexual intercourse. It's a necessity of life. There is nothing special about it. Besides reproduction, sexual activity has been shown to be important in forming pair bond between individuals and showing rank in a social hierarchy.

I stated that virginity would be valued, because it is for your own spouse only. Like i stated, it is a 'wedding gift" to your husband or wife to share that love for him or her only. It is like a package that is waiting to be opened for the first time, and it is a special thing for the one you marry...it takes only one time! :)

I would say that your feelings expressed in the original post about sex are more the result of your upbringing than about asexuality or societies views towards virgins.

Well, you may be right because I was brought up to believe that virginity is not to be shared to just anyone you see out the door, but for the one you actually love with all of your heart and your mind....like i stated, it is like a special package to be opened. If you already opened that present, it isn't that special anymore....you already gave yourself away.

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But "now people are giving that gift freely to so many people it just defeats the purpose" isn't it a gift that can only be given once? inquiring minds want to know.

Yes, it is a gift given once...to your spouse....not to just anyone. But so many people thinks sex is just nothing special, of course, they already given themselves to someone out there, and then they have so many sexual partners, it is never special to them. But for the people who wants to save themselves for marriage or the like, to them it is special, because it is a seal that they love that person with all of their hearts....that's why when a man and a woman marries for the first time and they are still virgins, they consumate the marriage and that's what makes it special...if you give yourself to someone you don't love, the virginity is gone...you cannot take it back.

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I have no idea why virginity would be valued. What's so special about it? Every animal reproduces sexually with many requiring sexual intercourse. It's a necessity of life. There is nothing special about it. Besides reproduction, sexual activity has been shown to be important in forming pair bond between individuals and showing rank in a social hierarchy.

I stated that virginity would be valued, because it is for your own spouse only. Like i stated, it is a 'wedding gift" to your husband or wife to share that love for him or her only. It is like a package that is waiting to be opened for the first time, and it is a special thing for the one you marry...it takes only one time! :)

But why? I don't care that my spouse had dinner with someone before me, and I don't care that she said "I love you" to someone before me, and I don't care that she snuggled with someone before me... why is sex any different?

And what if your first sexual relationship falls apart? Are you now secondhand goods? What if your partner cheats on you, or abuses you, so you leave? Doomed to never have a relationship again because you're not a virgin?

Or what if you just don't like the person you slept with? Do you have to stay with them forever? Its the attitude that virginity is a gift that kept women shackled for so long. It really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, if it really is so valuable and so important, then the people who stone adulterers are right. The brothers who kill their sisters for getting divorced and bring shame on the family are right. I don't like it. Not one bit.

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So if your spouse gets hit by a Mack truck, would you never consider marriage again because there is no longer a special package to be used as a wedding gift? :huh: And perhaps you would never consider a widower in the first place?

Lucinda

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I have no idea why virginity would be valued. What's so special about it? Every animal reproduces sexually with many requiring sexual intercourse. It's a necessity of life. There is nothing special about it. Besides reproduction, sexual activity has been shown to be important in forming pair bond between individuals and showing rank in a social hierarchy.

I stated that virginity would be valued, because it is for your own spouse only. Like i stated, it is a 'wedding gift" to your husband or wife to share that love for him or her only. It is like a package that is waiting to be opened for the first time, and it is a special thing for the one you marry...it takes only one time! :)

But why? I don't care that my spouse had dinner with someone before me, and I don't care that she said "I love you" to someone before me, and I don't care that she snuggled with someone before me... why is sex any different?

And what if your first sexual relationship falls apart? Are you now secondhand goods? What if your partner cheats on you, or abuses you, so you leave? Doomed to never have a relationship again because you're not a virgin?

Or what if you just don't like the person you slept with? Do you have to stay with them forever? Its the attitude that virginity is a gift that kept women shackled for so long. It really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, if it really is so valuable and so important, then the people who stone adulterers are right. The brothers who kill their sisters for getting divorced and bring shame on the family are right. I don't like it. Not one bit.

Agreed with this. I do not understand why virginity should be this special gift to give to a spouce. Sex is something that everyone (or at least the vast majority) are capable of. There are many different ways to have it and many different ways to enjoy it. Why, then, should it be placed on this high pedistal of moral value? It seems to me that there are much more personal things that could be given to a spouse on a wedding day compared to something that anyone could do at virtually any time. Sex can certainly be a wonderful thing for those who enjoy it, I just don't understand the moral value that so many seem to wrap it up with.

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But why? I don't care that my spouse had dinner with someone before me, and I don't care that she said "I love you" to someone before me, and I don't care that she snuggled with someone before me... why is sex any different?

I don't mind marrying a divorced guy myself, even if I am a virgin. :) Sex is only a part of the relationship, not the whole thing....love, understanding, and caring for one another is more important. :)

And what if your first sexual relationship falls apart? Are you now secondhand goods? What if your partner cheats on you, or abuses you, so you leave? Doomed to never have a relationship again because you're not a virgin?

If i marry a man who isn't good in bed, and I truly love him, I will still love him because he's my husband...and we can practice together to make it better....the key word is working together, not seperately. :) If he cheats on me or abuse me, that is grounds for divorce...that's ok....I will never think of myself as a doomed woman because I am no longer a virgin. :) A lot of women leave because of those reasons, even if they were a virgin or not one anymore.

Or what if you just don't like the person you slept with? Do you have to stay with them forever? Its the attitude that virginity is a gift that kept women shackled for so long. It really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, if it really is so valuable and so important, then the people who stone adulterers are right. The brothers who kill their sisters for getting divorced and bring shame on the family are right. I don't like it. Not one bit.

That's why there's an engagement period before marriage....you learn about the spouse, see how he works with you, and etc....if he doesn't work out, you can end the engagement and find someone else more suitable for you. Like I said, sex is not the whole thing in life, it is only a part of a relationship. :) Sex does not have to be in the picture before marriage....you can find out beforehand when you talk about kids or what turns you on. :) Then you two can work it out after marriage....only if you two truly love each other. :)

People who stone adulterers happened back in the olden days way way before we all were born. :) Like I said, divorce is ok when someone cheats on you...it is not right to cheat. Nobody is going to stone anyone for that, besides cheating has always been wrong for years since even before the 1700s. :)

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So if your spouse gets hit by a Mack truck, would you never consider marriage again because there is no longer a special package to be used as a wedding gift? :huh: And perhaps you would never consider a widower in the first place?

Lucinda

If my spouse gets killed, that doesn't mean I am not marriagable again. There's a lot of people I know who remarried after their spouse had died. Like I said, virginity only takes one time to be taken away to your first spouse...but if he dies, I can still marry again, but I won't be a virgin, and my 2nd husband would understand that. :)

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But why? I don't care that my spouse had dinner with someone before me, and I don't care that she said "I love you" to someone before me, and I don't care that she snuggled with someone before me... why is sex any different?

I don't mind marrying a divorced guy myself, even if I am a virgin. :) Sex is only a part of the relationship, not the whole thing....love, understanding, and caring for one another is more important. :)

And what if your first sexual relationship falls apart? Are you now secondhand goods? What if your partner cheats on you, or abuses you, so you leave? Doomed to never have a relationship again because you're not a virgin?

If i marry a man who isn't good in bed, and I truly love him, I will still love him because he's my husband...and we can practice together to make it better....the key word is working together, not seperately. :) If he cheats on me or abuse me, that is grounds for divorce...that's ok....I will never think of myself as a doomed woman because I am no longer a virgin. :) A lot of women leave because of those reasons, even if they were a virgin or not one anymore.

Or what if you just don't like the person you slept with? Do you have to stay with them forever? Its the attitude that virginity is a gift that kept women shackled for so long. It really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, if it really is so valuable and so important, then the people who stone adulterers are right. The brothers who kill their sisters for getting divorced and bring shame on the family are right. I don't like it. Not one bit.

That's why there's an engagement period before marriage....you learn about the spouse, see how he works with you, and etc....if he doesn't work out, you can end the engagement and find someone else more suitable for you. Like I said, sex is not the whole thing in life, it is only a part of a relationship. :) Sex does not have to be in the picture before marriage....you can find out beforehand when you talk about kids or what turns you on. :) Then you two can work it out after marriage....only if you two truly love each other. :)

People who stone adulterers happened back in the olden days way way before we all were born. :) Like I said, divorce is ok when someone cheats on you...it is not right to cheat. Nobody is going to stone anyone for that, besides cheating has always been wrong for years since even before the 1700s. :)

hey, thanks for taking this conversation so well! I see from your responses that you may romanticize virginity (that sounds condescending but I don't mean it to be... I romanticize lots of stuff myself), but you don't actually hold virginity as a standard or requirement. I have no issue with that. :)

People still do get stoned, though. Not in the States, but other places they sure do. And every now and again it does happen here, because people from other cultures come and bring those cultures with them. Now, my personal opinion is that virginity is considered sacred because of sexism, and not the other way around. I kinda think the only reason virginity was ever lauded was as a way to control women... in cultures where a woman is required to be a virgin, its not uncommon for the men to frequent prostitutes. The double standard makes it pretty clear that its not virginity that's at issue as much as keeping women subservient.

I can't help but think that Nogitsune, wherever she may be, would be proud of my post here. :D

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Hmm, it's apparent that the ones who are interested in practicing their sexuality are split into two categories here. According to the first party, having sex is a mundane practice without much of an importance or implication. The other group glorifies it and considers it to have a very special meaning beyond the physical intimacy. I think both are valid philosophies for people interested in having sex :)

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I kinda think the only reason virginity was ever lauded was as a way to control women... in cultures where a woman is required to be a virgin, its not uncommon for the men to frequent prostitutes. The double standard makes it pretty clear that its not virginity that's at issue as much as keeping women subservient.

Or perhaps it is a tradition that is still carried down to ensure paternity, lineage, and inheritance?

Lucinda

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I kinda think the only reason virginity was ever lauded was as a way to control women... in cultures where a woman is required to be a virgin, its not uncommon for the men to frequent prostitutes. The double standard makes it pretty clear that its not virginity that's at issue as much as keeping women subservient.

Or perhaps it is a tradition that is still carried down to ensure paternity, lineage, and inheritance?

Lucinda

Definitely. I was including all that, probably unfairly, under "keeping women subservient". It seems to me that the concern isn't about the woman's lineage, and inheritance went to the husband, even if it was the wife's family.

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I kinda think the only reason virginity was ever lauded was as a way to control women... in cultures where a woman is required to be a virgin, its not uncommon for the men to frequent prostitutes. The double standard makes it pretty clear that its not virginity that's at issue as much as keeping women subservient.

Or perhaps it is a tradition that is still carried down to ensure paternity, lineage, and inheritance?

Lucinda

Definitely. I was including all that, probably unfairly, under "keeping women subservient". It seems to me that the concern isn't about the woman's lineage, and inheritance went to the husband, even if it was the wife's family.

It's for the husband and his family to be certain that any child born will be his child. That was the point of displaying a bloody sheet the morning after the marriage rites.

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People still do get stoned, though. Not in the States, but other places they sure do. And every now and again it does happen here, because people from other cultures come and bring those cultures with them.

I didn't know that still goes on in other places, and here. I don't think that's right that they are stoning people for that.

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It's for the husband and his family to be certain that any child born will be his child. That was the point of displaying a bloody sheet the morning after the marriage rites.

Yes, I read about that. They want to make sure the hymen was still intact when he married her.

But I do know this....a hymen can be broken in non-sexual ways...like gymnastics, and some sports, or anything that you were very active in, like dancing or horseback riding. It can rupture without the girl knowing it. It is not always been broken by having sex. But yes, it can also be broken by sex toys or tampons.

I already knew mine was broken already...and I am fine with that. :)

But that's why when I read about other countries value virginity by displaying a bloody sheet, I was like, what about those who broke it in a non-sexual way? I feel bad for her even though it wasn't her fault.

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But that's why when I read about other countries value virginity by displaying a bloody sheet, I was like, what about those who broke it in a non-sexual way?

They didn't know that. Bloody sheets happened hundreds of years ago.

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Janus the Fox

Hmm, it's apparent that the ones who are interested in practicing their sexuality are split into two categories here. According to the first party, having sex is a mundane practice without much of an importance or implication. The other group glorifies it and considers it to have a very special meaning beyond the physical intimacy. I think both are valid philosophies for people interested in having sex :)

^ It is this I can relate to. I am that particular bi or asexual that is interested in practicing sex out of curisority, but I cant see it as a day to day importance. I see sex as a one off special opertunity, but also not required for day to day living.

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This thing about wanting it to be special I can relate to. Since I stopped having sex with the person who was my first, I many times gave up on opportunities to date other people, because I didn't want anybody else to create new memories for me, or to learn things about me that I'd shared with him already. I wanted him to be the only person in the world who would ever know what I was like in that way. From that point of view, I should have waited for marriage, but it seemed to me like I'd have more chance of growing two more heads than finding anyone sane to marry me.

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But that's why when I read about other countries value virginity by displaying a bloody sheet, I was like, what about those who broke it in a non-sexual way?

They didn't know that. Bloody sheets happened hundreds of years ago.

Or maybe they did know that, but didn't care. Think about that witch-test thing... if she floats, she's a witch, so we kill her, and if she sinks and drowns, she wasn't a witch. Even hundreds of years ago they had to have been laughing it up behind closed doors: "Can you believe people are buying John's new 'water test'? Hahahaha stupid women, kill 'em all!". Its not like all people were morons back then. Chauncer and Milton, Queen Elizabeth, St. Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Galileo, Bacon, Luther, Voltaire... smart people existed for just about ever. I refuse to believe that all the people involved in things like bloody sheets, stoning, and witch drowning were actually as dumb as they seem.

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But that's why when I read about other countries value virginity by displaying a bloody sheet, I was like, what about those who broke it in a non-sexual way?

They didn't know that. Bloody sheets happened hundreds of years ago.

Or maybe they did know that, but didn't care. Think about that witch-test thing... if she floats, she's a witch, so we kill her, and if she sinks and drowns, she wasn't a witch. Even hundreds of years ago they had to have been laughing it up behind closed doors: "Can you believe people are buying John's new 'water test'? Hahahaha stupid women, kill 'em all!". Its not like all people were morons back then. Chauncer and Milton, Queen Elizabeth, St. Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Galileo, Bacon, Luther, Voltaire... smart people existed for just about ever. I refuse to believe that all the people involved in things like bloody sheets, stoning, and witch drowning were actually as dumb as they seem.

It wasn't a question of being dumb, and I'm kind of surprised that you don't realize that. The Smart Famous People you list were certainly not synoymous with the women handmaidens/neighbors/relatives of the girl whose virginity was to be demonstrated by the bloody sheet any more than I am synonymous with a modern-day scientist. The women involved possibly knew that a non-bloody sheet didn't mean someone wasn't a virgin, since some of them would have been the "watchers" of the virgin in question and would have known that that virgin hadn't been fooling around. But they didn't have internal anatomical knowledge and thus didn't realize that what bled was the tissue known as a hymen, AND, more importantly, they were a part of a society which didn't reward that knowledge and in fact would have suppressed that knowledge. Women knew what they had to do and what they were not supposed to do or say.

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But that's why when I read about other countries value virginity by displaying a bloody sheet, I was like, what about those who broke it in a non-sexual way?

They didn't know that. Bloody sheets happened hundreds of years ago.

Or maybe they did know that, but didn't care. Think about that witch-test thing... if she floats, she's a witch, so we kill her, and if she sinks and drowns, she wasn't a witch. Even hundreds of years ago they had to have been laughing it up behind closed doors: "Can you believe people are buying John's new 'water test'? Hahahaha stupid women, kill 'em all!". Its not like all people were morons back then. Chauncer and Milton, Queen Elizabeth, St. Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Galileo, Bacon, Luther, Voltaire... smart people existed for just about ever. I refuse to believe that all the people involved in things like bloody sheets, stoning, and witch drowning were actually as dumb as they seem.

It wasn't a question of being dumb, and I'm kind of surprised that you don't realize that. The Smart Famous People you list were certainly not synoymous with the women handmaidens/neighbors/relatives of the girl whose virginity was to be demonstrated by the bloody sheet any more than I am synonymous with a modern-day scientist. The women involved possibly knew that a non-bloody sheet didn't mean someone wasn't a virgin, since some of them would have been the "watchers" of the virgin in question and would have known that that virgin hadn't been fooling around. But they didn't have internal anatomical knowledge and thus didn't realize that what bled was the tissue known as a hymen, AND, more importantly, they were a part of a society which didn't reward that knowledge and in fact would have suppressed that knowledge. Women knew what they had to do and what they were not supposed to do or say.

Huh. My point being that had anyone given two flying leaps about women's health, women's bodies, or actually confirming their crazy theories, the answer would have been easily discoverable. Maybe dumb and not dumb are the wrong words, but I still maintain there was a lot of willful ignorance going on.

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Virginity is something to be proud of in one respect: It means you didn't succumb to peer pressure to have sex. Even sexual people sometimes have sex when they don't really want to for that reason.

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Virginity is something to be proud of in one respect: It means you didn't succumb to peer pressure to have sex. Even sexual people sometimes have sex when they don't really want to for that reason.

Since sexuality doesn't personally mean anything for me, I only consider being indifferent to virginity. Being proud or shameful about one's virginity would basically mean that you're trying to either put yourself above others (proud) or hide the truth about you from others in fear of rejection (shameful). There are exceptions to this premise that come to effect when the point of view is changed. One excellent exception is mentioned above, in my opinion. I think it's ok to hold on to your independence and freedom of choice, even if it would come at the cost of being proud. You can be proud for the sake of proudness (resembling arrogance), or you can be proud temporarily and in a calculated manner so as to achieve a goal that you value higher (independence).

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This really has nothing to do with sexuality. We could as well be talking about drinking or taking drugs. You don't think resisting peer pressure is something to be proud of?

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This really has nothing to do with sexuality. We could as well be talking about drinking or taking drugs. You don't think resisting peer pressure is something to be proud of?

I agree. Resisting peer pressure and staying true to yourself is hard, so if you manage it you have a right to be proud of it.

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This really has nothing to do with sexuality. We could as well be talking about drinking or taking drugs. You don't think resisting peer pressure is something to be proud of?

I agree. Resisting peer pressure and staying true to yourself is hard, so if you manage it you have a right to be proud of it.

Resisting peer pressure wasn't and isn't hard for me personally, but that of course doesn't mean that it might not universally be hard. I take in influence, consider it but ultimately make my own mind and do as I think is best. Why should your actions be solely based on the opinions of others unless one was desperate to gain their approval. An independent individual has little use for the approval of others. Anyway, you can be proud of whatever you feel like is worthy of being proud of, especially if it's experienced as a personal achievement.

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Virginity is something to be proud of in one respect: It means you didn't succumb to peer pressure to have sex. Even sexual people sometimes have sex when they don't really want to for that reason.

So are people who have had sex when they didn't really want to supposed to be ashamed? Because shame is the opposite of pride. Both seem a bit silly to me.

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Virginity is something to be proud of in one respect: It means you didn't succumb to peer pressure to have sex. Even sexual people sometimes have sex when they don't really want to for that reason.

So are people who have had sex when they didn't really want to supposed to be ashamed? Because shame is the opposite of pride. Both seem a bit silly to me.

You don´t have to think about opposite word... I think for me it would be surely sadness, regret, disappointment from myself, maybe selfhatred and even trauma...? And shame would only go together with all those things.

It doesn´t refer only to sex but to anything what I don´t want to do (for example taking drugs...).

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Hmm, I've been reading this entire thread and I'm not sure where to begin or where to start, so I'll toss in one prevalent opinion I have been wanting to share since page 1.

Virginity is an ancient term that in so many ways should simply be abolished for the sake of clarification. What is virginity these days? Medically speaking it's the hymen inside a woman's vagina, and for a man...? His "first time," simply put.

It seems to be a frequent occurrence that women actually lose their virginity to themselves(through self-exploration with sexual toys and masturbation) and not to the first man they choose to bed. I think everyone would benefit from just acknowledging the fact that virginity is a medieval term and a lot of people - both sexually active and inactive alike - would greatly benefit from just discarding it completely instead of making it seem like some drastic staple in a person's life.

I´ve never perceived virginity as a "problem" of hymen. For me, it´s more a problem of lack of sexual experinces. If I ever wanted to have sex, it´s more logical to say "I´ve never had sex - any kind of sex." than "I´m a virgin." And IMO it is important to tell it because when your partner knows you´re inexperienced he/she will take it slowly and gently and will get that you´re a little, or a lot :lol: lame (at least if this person isn´t total idiot). If you pretend to be experienced sex god/godess you´ll be treated this way. <_< I think you can´t pretend it successfuly anyway and you shouldn´t.

If I wanted to have sex (which is very improbable) I would be honest to my partner, even if it would be probably the end of relationship. *sigh*

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It wouldn't be the end of the relationship where there is genuine attraction. If a person lets you go for any reason, they just aren't that into you, and that means they aren't the right person for you either.

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