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What kind of space do you want?


Siggy

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So now that the Gray Area exists, what kind of space do you want it to be?

Do you want it to be a 101 space, to explain gray/demi to questioning people, and to the larger asexual community?

Do you want it to be a safe space, where we can say what we like without having to worry about outsiders' misunderstandings?

Do you want it to be a 102 space, where we make progress in our collective understanding, rather than going in circles?

Do you want it to be an activist space, used as a launching point for specific actions?

Or perhaps something else I haven't thought of?

(Even if you want it to be all these things, pick your favorite!)

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The thing is we can't do 102 without the 101 otherwise we get...yea -_-

I think what we should do is have a pinned thread explaining 101 stuff and for questions (I can ask the muserants mod to move the "grey resource thread" and "ask a grey" here if we don't want to start over).

Then we can potentially use the rest of the forum as a safe space.

That's my idea anyway

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Just seconding what Tea said. That was kinda what I was hoping the forum would be when it started.

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There was a vision for this forum when it was created.

Perhaps people are forgetting that a lot of work went into this and it wasn't just a "hmm, we should have a forum - poof!" It took a lot of convincing, a lot of thinking, a lot of hard work. I know a lot of new people who showed up here don't realize that, but we (me, as well as some other hard-working supporters) had to essentially convince all of AVEN that this was a good idea.

Anyway, I'll simplify it and answer your questions.

Do you want it to be a 101 space, to explain gray/demi to questioning people, and to the larger asexual community?

Yes. This is probably key at the moment. We don't have a ton of visibility. People are going to have questions and we need to develop suitable, reasonable, confident answers to them. It's part of visibility work.

We have to ask the tough questions. We can't hide behind a definition, or get mad at the people asking the questions. You have to face the battle confidently and calmly.

Just like coming out as asexual or whatever - where people call them "late bloomers". Someone in this situation can't cry and say they're being mean, and stupid, and obviously don't understand. That's not a proper reaction and it doesn't help anything. They have to formulate a good argument as to why they're not a "late bloomer", to the best of their knowledge.

Applying this to us, we need to ask the tough questions in here before they get asked out in the real world by people with less patience. It's going to be hard, but throw your feelings aside and just think. Think about things in general.

Don't spin things to mean something that's not intended. Don't take on a reactionary approach to everything. Look under the surface and ask questions. Why is this person who doesn't understand saying these things? Why am I reacting this way in response? Talk it out. Share ideas.

Do you want it to be a safe space, where we can say what we like without having to worry about outsiders' misunderstandings?

I don't like the way this question is phrased. I would like it to be a "safe space" for everyone.

This question makes it sound too much like we would be tolerating "saying what we like", which in other threads has come to over-generalizing sexuals, and things of that nature. I don't appreciate that, personally, and I know of some other people who feel the same way.

So, yes, I believe it should be a "safe space" for grays in that their definition of themselves would not be questioned (provided they explain their definition so that it is clear and not confusing to others). However, the "saying what we like" bit needs to be respectful of everyone else as well.

Outsiders will have their misunderstandings, and an important part of being a good resource is to clarify, help to fix those misunderstandings, and to educate. Please remember the general purpose of the entire AVEN forum - it is for education and visibility.

Do you want it to be a 102 space, where we make progress in our collective understanding, rather than going in circles?

This is an important aspect as well. We need to work on sharing experiences and understanding ourselves. There will be some "going in circles", especially when everyone is confused and nobody can agree on anything. There will be some bumpy roads and some arguing. It's to be expected of something new, and especially of something where peoples' personal definitions of themselves are involved. If we keep the emotions out of it and try not to read too much into a simple question, or a simple bit of confusion or misunderstanding, I think we'll be a whole lot better off.

Again, to explain what I mean by relating it to a common thing with asexuals - if someone were to tell one of them, "well, I don't think you're asexual", is the best reaction to stand there and stomp their feet and cry and claim that they're being "erased"? No. This is the opportunity to ask the person who questions it what they are thinking and feeling to reach a better understanding. In this situation, the best course of action would be for them to ask, "Well, why don't you think I'm asexual?" They would get the answer - it might be, "Well, you said this guy was handsome". Then they would reply, calmly and confidently, with reasons that they are still are asexual - "We can find people aesthetically attractive. The definition of asexuality is simply 'a lack of sexual attraction towards others'. Finding someone handsome doesn't necessarily mean I find them sexually attractive." They take the opportunity to educate and be a good face for the movement.

However, as you might have realized - it's hard to educate without knowing the answers. Just like it's hard to explain vector calculus to your mother if you know nothing about vector calculus. Figuring out the definitions is a key step. If it turns out that it's not a collective definition (by which I mean - everyone uses the same definition - like with asexuality here in AVEN) and that everyone has their own understanding of it, perhaps that is what is needed, an explanation following the label. For example, "I identify as gray because I experience sexual attraction but it is not as often as I believe it is for sexual people." Someone else may have another definition for it, and I feel it's important to make that distinction if we can't agree on one definition.

Do you want it to be an activist space, used as a launching point for specific actions?

You mean like visibility projects? I think before we even consider getting this going, we need to get ourselves straightened out first.

Start with our own understanding, a "team huddle" if you will. Develop a game plan, course of action, methods of understanding, ideas, terminology, share experiences, etc.

From there, move on to building confidence, answering questions, developing answers to common misconception questions, etc.

Then, once we are confident, yet calm - visibility comes in. But I believe that visibility would come with the confidence, proper definitions, and proper rebuttals to misconceptions.

And with that, I leave you for a bit.

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primarily this should be like aven is supposed to be..a 101 information share

the rest of the choices i feel will be organic and will find thier own place and standing

this safe space nonsense worries me..because as we have seen by some..safe space means they do not want anyone to think differently than them..if however you mean a safe space to be open to all views then yes that would make sense

the last bit about activist?? i didn't really get..i'm hoping it didn't mean your own pt?..certianly if as a forum you feel under represented within the pt..pt elections are upon us and you can have a say or stand if you wish

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AVEN has always ridden a delicate compromise on the safe space issue. These days I prefer to call AVEN a quasi-safe space. Outright attacks on orientations are not allowed; neither is the explicit invalidation of people's identity. But apart from that it's reasonably open.

There are people who think AVEN is nowhere near safe enough, and thereby sanctions attacks on and erasures of asexuals/greys/fluid people/trans people/etc. And then there are people who think it's over-coddled to the exclusion of the free expression of ideas. You simply can't please everyone.

I'm happy with AVEN as it is. But I think it's important to recognise its limitations. If anyone is expecting it to be a fully safe space, or if anyone is expecting it to be completely open to challenges, they will be disappointed.

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I can't reply to the other posts in this thread, already, there is so much hostility and dismissiveness and excuse-making.

I don't think this can be a safe space, much as that's what I'd prioritize it being (descending order here).

I don't this this can be a 102 space without being safe for greys in the first place.

And I don't think it can be a 101 for greys when it isn't safe for greys, either. How are we supposed to do visibility and advocate for ourselves when we aren't comfortable talking about ourselves? Maybe it can be a 101 for/by asexuals and sexuals *about* greys. It won't be a very good one.

And activist threads can go in the activist forum I think; devoting this whole forum to it seems unnecessary.

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i do feel this safe place is a rubbish thing trying to be imposed by some who want no one other than 100% confirmed greys in here

why..simple lets look at you epoc

been here 21 months..only posted 27 times and almost all of them..within the last few weeks and in the grey forum

after being here so long why do you suddenly feel safe enough to post most of your inputs into the very forum you say is not safe to do so?

i am starting to feel some rather than welcoming all into grey..are trying to put a wall up

we have a saying in the uk.. if your names not on the list your not coming in..some i feel are trying to do that heer

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I think it should be a safe space first, and then a 101 - I agree with Epochryphal that it won't be a very good 101 forum if the people the forum is about don't feel comfortable talking about themselves. The 102 and activist stuff would be nice, but I'd personally hold off on pushing that aspect until a good core of greys/semis/demis has gotten established.

To me, making this a safe space comes down to two things: no erasing, and no identity policing. Which is.. pretty much the AVEN rules, isn't it? :D

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Well I'd imagine the space does not have to be fully safe for greys to feel comfortable posting here. AVEN is not and never has been fully safe - even for asexuals - but lots of asexuals (myself included) are OK posting here.

If it was a fully safe space, in the sense the term is usually used, there would be no discussions about the validity of fluidity. That would have been cut off right at the start. There would be no discussions about whether repulsed asexuals really should be considered asexual. There would be no discussions about speculative links between asexuality and autism or introversion or depression. Etc etc etc.

What is actually disallowed on AVEN are outright attacks on orientations and that goes for greys too. If someone tells a self-identifying Grey that they are not one, they contravene the ToS. If someone says that Grey Asexuality doesn't exist, that will get sanctioned. Ditto for "Asexual" or any other orientation.

So it's quasi-safe. Does that make some people uncomfortable? I'd imagine so, and it's not just greys. I certainly don't like the fact some people feel uncomfortable here. Anything but; it actually upsets me a great deal. But I do understand that the expectation that AVEN is entirely safe is probably unrealistic, and has never been promised as far as I know.

Just a note: these are all my personal observations, and not any kind of official statement. I don't make or enforce the rules around here.

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that kinda removes an individuals ability to have an opinion michael surely?

What does?

If you mean a fully safe space: yes absolutely. Some opinions cannot be expressed in a safe space, no matter how sincere they are.

In fact that's true of AVEN too. I might have a perfectly sincere opinion that asexuality doesn't exist. (I don't, but just imagine.) I might have a perfectly sincere opinion that someone who calls themself asexual isn't one. If I tried to express these opinions here, I'd be warned or nudged - and rightly, because it's against the ToS.

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with regards to telling an individual i agree..however having a opinion as a generalisation i would have to disagree other wise it becomes very much like hogwarts and ..using the he who must not be named analogy of some subjects are totally out of bounds..which is difficult if your trying to give an accurate both/multiple sides discussion and allow people an open and honest input

anyway i think i'll leave the entire grey forum well alone from this point,,it seems to be very unwelcoming unless you are grey

And we are now in a position where asexuals... may have no go areas in an asexual forum

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with regards to telling an individual i agree..however having a opinion as a generalisation i would have to disagree other wise it becomes very much like hogwarts and ..using the he who must not be named analogy oy some subjects are totally out of bounds..which is difficult if your trying to give an accurate both/multiple sides discussion

I think there would definitely be some use in having an utterly unsafe space for the informed discussion of asexuality. I'm imagining somewhere that might exclude clueless people (unless they're willing to learn of course) and obvious trolls, but allow informed challenges, and yes even ones that could be seen as erasure or *-phobic. At some point we need a fully open battle of ideas. Ultimately this is what is needed for any system of thought to prevail.

The thing is though, I don't think AVEN is the place for this. AVEN is not primarily a research think-tank. It's first of all a support group for people who are often in very difficult personal situations. It's a support group for people who feel isolated, and need somewhere where some particular ideas - like the validity of their orientation - are just accepted.

I think this is my main point. Let's not be unrealistic about what AVEN is. It's not a fully safe space. It's not somewhere that all opinions are acceptable. It's somewhere in between fully safe and fully open. Where the line is exactly is something I don't know, and I'd love to get clarified. At least then everyone will know what the situation is, and not have any unrealistic expectations.

Anyway I've gone a little off-topic; sorry Siggy. Back to the main discussion.

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I think it should be a safe space first, and then a 101 - I agree with Epochryphal that it won't be a very good 101 forum if the people the forum is about don't feel comfortable talking about themselves. The 102 and activist stuff would be nice, but I'd personally hold off on pushing that aspect until a good core of greys/semis/demis has gotten established.

To me, making this a safe space comes down to two things: no erasing, and no identity policing. Which is.. pretty much the AVEN rules, isn't it? :D

I agree with this as well.

I do wonder why people are allowed to do erasing and identity politics here and not in other parts of the forum and dress it up as "101" or "102".

If we come up with a list of ground rules then maybe we CAN have 101 and a safe space as well.

Something like:

*No identity policing

*No erasing other people's orientations based on their experiences

*If anything is said in a manner that seems to fit one of the above, address it calmly (as in "it sounds like you said this, and I think it's bad because of this" instead of the attacking that happened on both sides)

etc.

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Guest member25959

My post was originally longer, but I decided that it wasn't worth writing such a lengthy post on this issue.

In short, you can't expect anywhere to be entirely ''safe'', especially not a (new) subforum on a larger forum.

I don't agree with the criticizing of and question of someone's identity, at all, but you can't expect it not to happen.

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EDIT: I'd like to nominate this thread for Most Passive Aggressive.

I wasn't being passive aggressive before, but I don't think it is possible to respond to this in a non-passive aggressive way. So I guess you win!

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I know this isn't my thread, but I like the idea behind it so I'm gonna ask for something:

If we can try not to snipe at each other (in this thread anyway) and come up with workable ideas then I think we'll all manage to make this forum work. Please?

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I agree that this thread could be very useful if we use it properly.

I'll just take this opportunity to share my personal vision of the Gray Area, which I don't expect anyone else to subscribe to:

  • Gray 101 - pinned directory thread that redirects to useful threads
  • Safe Space - most of the forum, people sharing their gray experiences
  • Gray 102 - a few threads, labelled with a "warning" eg. "Caution: Heavy Discussion", devoted to more theoretical exploration of the label

Of course, I'm also looking to forward to all those "Am I Gray/Demi?" threads that will inevitably pop up after time. :P

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Okay, now that other people have given input, I'll say what I think.

I have a strong personal preference for 102 spaces. However, I don't think this is possible on AVEN (because of the constant influx of newcomers), nor do I think it is desirable for the community as a whole. 101 spaces and safe spaces are much more necessary at this point.

The director of my local LGBT center draws a distinction between "safe" spaces and "brave" spaces. A safe space is somewhere where you can feel free to give your experiences without worrying about making yourself or your group look bad. For instance, on AVEN I can talk about my sexual experiences without worrying about onlookers concluding that asexuals are just "running away" from something. Because on AVEN we know better than that. A brave space is somewhere where you feel free to express your opinions, however politically incorrect. You expect to be criticized for these opinions, but there are no hard feelings and it doesn't discourage you from expressing opinions in the future.

The idea behind the distinction is that you can't have both, not fully. If a space is fully safe, people will hesitate to express unflattering opinions. If a space is fully brave, people will hesitate to talk about their experiences lest someone draw some strange conclusions from it.

I think at this point, a safer space makes more sense. I think there is a lack of safe space for grays. But it can't/won't be entirely safe, because it also needs to serve as 101. You know, pretty much everyone who flows through AVEN is gonna see this forum and say, "Demisexuality? Gray-A? What's that?"

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A safe space is somewhere where you can feel free to give your experiences without worrying about making yourself or your group look bad.

That was not what I'd understood by the term. I thought a safe space was somewhere that the in-group could expect to be free of bigotry, *-phobia, erasure, offensive misconceptions etc etc etc. (And of course actual violence, which I believe was how the term started.)

Unless I missed something, the objections to the current lot of discussions have little to do with Greys not being able to share their experiences for fear of making the group look bad.

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I'll be totally honest in that a lot of this terminology is new to me.

But the way you've described it, Siggy, that sounds like what we do need. I just want to make sure, if we can, that sexuals and asexuals will also feel fully welcome here. I have been contacted by some "non-grays" who have said that they feel uncomfortable here as well. It's difficult tonunderstand exactly why, but I think part of it is because nobody seems to feel comfy in here right now, lol...

Anyway... I do like the concept that Fae brought up (I think...cant see it now that I started typing) about having 102 spaces with huge, clear warnings as to what their intention is. I think 102 is important as well, probably because personally, that's where most of my interest lies at the moment.

I just don't want anyone to feel left out or unwelcome. I don't want anyone to feel squished or erased. I want people to be comfy with saying whatever, provided they're being respectful as best as they can.

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A safe space is somewhere where you can feel free to give your experiences without worrying about making yourself or your group look bad.

That was not what I'd understood by the term. I thought a safe space was somewhere that the in-group could expect to be free of bigotry, *-phobia, erasure, offensive misconceptions etc etc etc. (And of course actual violence, which I believe was how the term started.)

Unless I missed something, the objections to the current lot of discussions have little to do with Greys not being able to share their experiences for fear of making the group look bad.

Haha, well it's not like you can look these things up in a dictionary. That's just the description that came to mind. I don't think what you said is very different from what I said. But I think that a safe space excludes more than just bigotry, it also excludes some forms of legitimate discussion.

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But I think that a safe space excludes more than just bigotry, it also excludes some forms of legitimate discussion.

Agreed; for example views that are generally offensive to the in-group are usually off-limits in safe spaces, but they may be an entirely legitimate topic for discussion in other contexts.

It also occurs to me that a 102 space could be seen as another type of safe space, the point being that an understanding and agreement with the 101 material is a prerequisite for participation, meaning that a good many (possibly quite legitimate) discussions are out of bounds, just like in a safe space.

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Great Thief Yatagarasu

A safe place, thank you. This thread has, so far, mostly been used by us to try and define what grey-A and demi MEAN, which, if I'm being honest, I don't think we need to change the definition. At the same time, I've also seen both aces and sexuals alike come on here and question us and our feelings, effectively (in some cases) lumping greys with full sexuals using the logic "You've felt sexual attraction, therefore you're sexual." It's been REALLY disheartening. I mean, why can't we have some of the brilliant conversational topics that the other forum threads get?

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A safe place, thank you. This thread has, so far, mostly been used by us to try and define what grey-A and demi MEAN, which, if I'm being honest, I don't think we need to change the definition. At the same time, I've also seen both aces and sexuals alike come on here and question us and our feelings, effectively (in some cases) lumping greys with full sexuals using the logic "You've felt sexual attraction, therefore you're sexual." It's been REALLY disheartening. I mean, why can't we have some of the brilliant conversational topics that the other forum threads get?

Agreed. I do feel that part of the issue with this forum is that it seems that greys are held to a different standard than sexuals or asexuals. Like we're able to be poked and prodded while the other groups can't be. From this side...I don't like it much.

I do think that this forum can work well, but it won't work if we don't have members who are comfortable posting in here.

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