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what is grey/demi?


PiF

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and having one's experiences generally fit into the expectations of one's own context (specifically about what is considered a normal level of attraction).

What is the normal level? Where does one find out?

Lucinda

Here's a little anecdote from earlier today. I started a thread in Sexual Allies/ Partners section asking for a description of people's "sexual landscapes". I have always considered my libido to be "medium." Pamcakes described her libido as "high". And yet I require more sex per week than Pamcakes to feel fully sexually satisfied.

Just goes to show ya that we have no idea what average is.

This, and your description of "subjective vs. objective" that I asked you about earlier, makes me think that perhaps a poll in which we ask...objective? facts?...should be made, instead of one that focuses on "low, medium, and high". Something like "how many people in your life have you been attracted to in this fashion?" and "if you had a perfect situation, how often would you want sex of this level?" That sort of thing.

Thoughts?

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This, and your description of "subjective vs. objective" that I asked you about earlier, makes me think that perhaps a poll in which we ask...objective? facts?...should be made, instead of one that focuses on "low, medium, and high". Something like "how many people in your life have you been attracted to in this fashion?" and "if you had a perfect situation, how often would you want sex of this level?" That sort of thing.

Thoughts?

Could do, and it'd probably be interesting and educational. I personally am not all that interested in the intricacies of individual preferences, so that's not something I would necessarily volunteer to put together, but yes, I think the results would be interesting and I would certainly answer such a survey. :)

The major limitation I see is that someone speculating about what they would want or hope to have in the future is not particularly objective. focus would have to be on what's already happened in the person's life, not on future projections.

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^ Mmm, yeah, good point.

But...hmm. Then I feel like I'd get a lot of flak for basing an orientation on experiences or behavior. :blink:

I'll think on the best way to do this. Obviously I'll want to give the other poll a bit of time to get processed and get some votes.

And you know me, I love making polls. LOL. Except when there's the freaking SQL error that makes it die. :evil:

Thanks for the input. :wub:

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Honestly I see it this way

We can do poll

after poll

after poll

and we won't get anywhere because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NORMAL.

Before this thread started there was zero identity policing, zero intolerance of labels, zero stupidity like this and now we're looking for "normal"

I'm out.

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We're not trying to define "normal". :blink:

We're trying to have a look at the spectrum, and see what a "gray" is like and what a "sexual" is like, and perhaps even what an "asexual" is like (although we kind of have that one pinned down a bit better, I think) because it seems that there are some misconceptions floating around.

Right?

I'm not obsessed with the labels either but I am curious about the spectrum.

There is no "normal". There is no perfect example, and it's going to mean something different across the board still. But if we're going to get anywhere with this forum...

we need to know what the fuck "gray" means to each of us.

Because it seems like we all have a varying opinion.

Seriously.

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On the one hand everyone is saying that there is no such thing as normal, and then you keep trying to define normal.

How can you do both?

Oh, I'm definitely NOT trying to do that. I just stepped out for a second and realized that my statement "no one knows what average is" absolutely implies the existence of "average", but I didn't mean it like that. I was just making a separate point that our own judgments about where we sit in relation to each other are often based on misconceptions.

Personally, I just think people should be encouraged to get to know the details of the people around them because we're all different in our own ways.

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The only varying opinions I've seen about greys are in this thread to be honest. And half of them were said AFTER people came out as a form of identity policing.

I found this on tumblr:

tumblr_lrfxr5lmLF1r18vqko1_1280.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1316232362&Signature=7nxyQS7NkboETd2oroK%2BQHLfbUo%3D

Do you really think that this thread is being helpful to the grey-a community if we keep alienating people like this?

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????

WHY do they feel erased?

I'm so freaking confused.

If this thread or anything in the forum is bothering someone, TELL ME.

I want to know. I want to help. I want to understand, and hear the truth, especially if I have anything to do with making anyone feel like shit.

I didn't lose all that sleep and allow my grades to drop and all that to get this forum started for nothing, you guys. Yeah, keep that in mind. I put a ton of effort into this, I'm not just going to drop it now. I do care. This is important to me, even if it doesn't always seem that way. I've been going through a lot of shit lately (including homelessness), so if you're just popping in for a quick read, please keep that in mind. I might not be making perfect sense right now, and I've tried to point that out whenever I felt confused. Some of the stuff I've said I've since taken back and since revised...it's a discussion. We're learning from each other.

None of this should be taken as gospel, it's all a bunch of peoples' opinions. Nobody is "policing" anyone. We're just trying to understand. It's just a discussion and no erasure is intended on my part, at least. I just want to understand. I'm asking tough questions and encouraging others to do the same in order to understand better.

It's much better that we pin this down ourselves than let other people out in the world pin it down for us. I'm not happy with just taking a definition and not analyzing it. Having a subforum like this is new. It's going to create some questions and drama. We need to discuss. If anyone feels antagonized, speak up. But there's going to be some disagreements - it's normal.

If you want in on this discussion, PARTICIPATE. Don't whine about it anonymously - most of us will never see that and we can't help or fix anything without understanding the cause and WHY you feel like that.

The only reason this discussion turned into what it did was because people had different opinions of what "gray" meant. Since that became obvious, we've been trying to pin down what it does actually mean, and we haven't seemed to have gotten anywhere, really. There may not have been differing opinions before - but you know why? NOBODY TALKED ABOUT IT IN THIS MUCH DETAIL BEFORE. There was nowhere to do so. Nobody asked the tough questions.

All we've got for a definition is "somewhere between asexual and sexual"...and yes, that does exist, and I understand that. All these other models...not everyone agrees with them.

The thing I'm trying to do is figure out what this means exactly so that it is explainable to other people. I want us all to reach a conclusion, ideally. *shrug* That's why I've stuck around this thread.

And I'll admit, part of my confusion and issue stems from the fact that I can't tell whether I'm gray or sexual, and that bothers me. I don't know how to tell. I don't think anyone can tell me how to tell.

That's where most of my questions are stemming from, and I'm not trying to erase anyone else's identity. If I choose to throw my labels out, it doesn't mean I'm throwing everyone's labels out. I respect your labels. I just don't understand mine. Until I do, I don't feel comfortable using them.

*long, long, long sigh*

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Being told that there is nothing between asexual and sexual?

Being accused of slut-shaming

Having polls around the forums to try to find the definition of normal?

Being told that since I don't fit everybody else's definition of a grey then I'm questioning my definition?

I'm only naming a few problems this thread has that may have led the person to feel erased. Obviously I can't speak for them, but maybe they DID try to say something here and maybe we didn't listen. We're so busy trying to come up with definitions that we forgot to actually try to deal with the issues that face us in the middle.

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Being told that there is nothing between asexual and sexual?

That specific part of the topic was saying that there is "asexual" (lack of sexual attraction) and "sexual" (its opposite - where one experiences sexual attraction).

Gray was not "erased" - we were trying to figure out if it is better described as a subset of asexuality, a subset of sexuality, or neither.

We were also trying to figure out where the borders lie between asexual, gray, and sexual.

If the border cannot be clearly determined, it's hard to tell the difference between gray and sexual, or between gray and asexual, isn't it?

That's all.

Being accused of slut-shaming

Where, and what the hell does that even mean?

Having polls around the forums to try to find the definition of normal?

Not defining normal. It even says right in the poll in bright red letters:

"We're not criticizing anyone's definitions of themselves in these polls. We're just asking about them."

Who said we were trying to "define normal"? I was just trying to figure out what the word means to each person who uses it, in order to try to understand.

Being told that since I don't fit everybody else's definition of a grey then I'm questioning my definition?

Again, where?

We don't have an agreed-upon definition of gray. So how could your definition (or anyone else's) be criticized right now?

All we're trying to do is pin down a definition. Anyone who is taking this personally...none of it is talking about anyone specifically (except those few bits where people were being specific, and they used names...like when I was asking about my personal identity and got a few tips).

Ideally we should probably keep this topic general, and avoid investing personal feelings into it.

But yes. Honestly, I don't really like where this thread went at all and kind of wish I could delete it. I don't feel like we've gotten anywhere except considering a bunch of ideas (which was useful, but it's not really done in the best way I guess) and apparently pissing people off who thought we were trying to define them by discussing ideas.

I don't know what the heck to do really. Stay out of it for a bit? I'm going to have to anyway, I won't have internet for a while when I move into my new place.

*sigh* Yeah, okay.

*hugs forum* don't die.

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Being told that there is nothing between asexual and sexual?

That specific part of the topic was saying that there is "asexual" (lack of sexual attraction) and "sexual" (its opposite - where one experiences sexual attraction).

Gray was not "erased" - we were trying to figure out if it is better described as a subset of asexuality, a subset of sexuality, or neither.

We were also trying to figure out where the borders lie between asexual, gray, and sexual.

If the border cannot be clearly determined, it's hard to tell the difference between gray and sexual, or between gray and asexual, isn't it?

That's all.

But why do we need to find the borders at all. I mean does a bisexual person need borders if they've only been attracted to one person of the opposite sex? Is there a point when somebody stops being gay or straight and starts being bisexual or is that a fluke? Should my gay friend who was once romantically attracted to a woman suddenly start identifying as such even though it only happened in middle school?

Being accused of slut-shaming

Where, and what the hell does that even mean?

Slut shaming means that somebody is trying to make people (especially women) look bad because of their sexual experiences. By saying that my label was offensive to sexuals because "most sexuals are like that", you are inherently accusing me of slut-shaming because you are saying that my orientation was chosen as opposed to hypersexuality, which is not the case.

Having polls around the forums to try to find the definition of normal?

Not defining normal. It even says right in the poll in bright red letters:

"We're not criticizing anyone's definitions of themselves in these polls. We're just asking about them."

Who said we were trying to "define normal"? I was just trying to figure out what the word means to each person who uses it, in order to try to understand.

The polls are just making people more confused. And frankly if you want to figure out what the word means to each person it's better to ask them instead of polling them.

Being told that since I don't fit everybody else's definition of a grey then I'm questioning my definition?

Again, where?

I believe both Tea and Birdwing are questioning whether they should consider themselves "sexual" based on behavioral aspects which they haven't completely resolved at this time. I think that is a fair consideration regardless of AVEN's stance on the matter.

Does anyone care to discuss?

Lucinda

That help you?

We don't have an agreed-upon definition of gray. So how could your definition (or anyone else's) be criticized right now?

All we're trying to do is pin down a definition. Anyone who is taking this personally...none of it is talking about anyone specifically (except those few bits where people were being specific, and they used names...like when I was asking about my personal identity and got a few tips).

Ideally we should probably keep this topic general, and avoid investing personal feelings into it.

This isn't a discussion as much as it is erasure. The discussions seem to be happening on the other threads you made "what is grey" and "what is demi" People put in input. Nobody feels erased.

Why does this thread not feel that way

EDIT: I finished this after Birdwing's edit so... >_<

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I think it's a little weird to spend nine pages to discuss definitions, when it's not especially relevant to living life in the gray. That's the sort of thing you'd talk about if you were interested in grayness as an academic topic rather than an everyday fact about yourself. Well, I dunno. Perhaps the solution is to start discussion in new threads.

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This thread has been locked as it seems to have run its course through many directions/tangents/circles and has met a dead end. Please do not start any new threads pertaining to this matter for 3 days as a courtesy, though appropriate discussion may continue on existing threads. I advise all participants to take this time to review this thread, gather their thoughts, and formulate their positions, preferably in a succinct and clear manner that might be posted in a new, clean thread.

If you have any concerns about this thread, please PM me.

Faelights,

The Gray Area Co-mod.

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