what is grey/demi?

[Guest]

I really don't care what you think about me PiF. I do know that you disagree with me so you decide to make me look bad the best way you can.

So I didnt support this forum...who cares. At least I'm not saying that greys don't exist.

And stop being a drama llama, it makes me sad X_X

[Member33070]

Agh I so so so so wish I could explain it really really well with backup right now...

Alas, I am still without my links...please don't make me break down and hand write them...and type out code on an iPhone...you know I'll do it though...

But whoever feels like googling "aven wiki gray a" and posting that quote...that will explain quite a bit. *twiddles thumbs*

There's a similar page on there if you search for "demisexual" and if you search in the search box on the wiki for "primary and secondary" the top suggestion will explain that difference between primary and secondary attraction and desire.

I feel so helpless right now AGH.

Typing something up on my laptop to post when the wifi place opens tomorrow...

[PiF]

does this secondary asexual attraction version appear outside of aven wiki?

[Midnight-Poetry]

Aven Wiki states a Gray A includes but is not limited to:

* do not normally experience sexual attraction, but do experience it sometimes

* experience sexual attraction, but a low sex drive

* experience sexual attraction and drive, but not strongly enough to want to act on them

* people who can enjoy and desire sex, but only under very limited and specific circumstances

* people who experience some parts of sexuality but not others

However, backing up my previous post I am not using some BS made up long term attraction definition and hoping you accept it. People develop sexual attraction via association. People who do this may not have initial physical attraction.

Not meaning to degrade the gray-a community in anyway, but a simple form of this (over time development of sexual attraction) is fetishism. Take someone into BDSM who has no desire for sex outside certain scenarios. This is an example of someone who has developed an association over time as opposed to having instant connection.

Edit: I also find it curious you would support a forum on a topic you are confused about before clarifying prior to its initiation.

[Guest]

Edit: I also find it curious you would support a forum on a topic you are confused about before clarifying prior to its initiation.

I find this curious too. I also find it curious that you feel the need to call me out for posting in here because I didn't support it when in fact one of the reason why I didnt support it was because of threads like these.

[Member33070]

You guys!!! No being rude in the pretty new forum!!! You're making me sad. :(

PiF can be seen here as asking a question that I'm sure a lot of people are wondering when they hear about grays. What IS the difference? What IS a gray or a Demi? Does this analogy work, or this one, etc?

People are going to think we don't exist if we can't even properly explain what we are.

Getting defensive and resorting to name calling and rudeness is not helping our efforts. Please remember that this forum is on a trial period and if it turns into a place of hate and arguing it might not stick around.

Therefore I will not tolerate it. Please watch yourselves. Think about what you say. We're here to learn and teach. If someone says something incorrect, simply provide the correct, sourced information. Calling them stupid or something isn't going to make you look smarter.

[PiF]

so..just aven wiki then?

Edit: I also find it curious you would support a forum on a topic you are confused about before clarifying prior to its initiation.

i supported strongly the forum because there was/is a need for it..irrelevant of my personal feeling in regards to the grey/demi/semi spectrum

[Member33070]

there are some things I am still confused abot myself, and I'm...what...the catalyst of this forum? I think all of us can admit we don't know absolutely everything about grayness. Remember, efforts like these to have subforums (and offsite forums) dedicated to it are a brand new idea. Not a lot of talking has been done on these topics, at least not in the detail that I imagine it could be.

There are some things that are still fuzzy and that is one goal of the subforum here - to figure those things out. To talk through them and work it all out.

This phone is absolute hell to type on guys...

[Midnight-Poetry]

It was directed to PiF.

[Member33070]

I will have an amazing explanation for you by noon PST tomorrow, PiF. Okay?

Aven wiki is just the only thing I know off the top of my head on how to search for.

[PiF]

i've just read wiki as i can't find any other explanation of this new fangled two tier definition of sexual attraction

in wiki..(insertgrey/semi/demi/pan) many feel sexual attraction but...

and wether some like the question being asked..the bit most will see as a direct contradiction is they feel sexual attraction

now..the answer that anyone who is unsure and comes looking in this forum..should be based on something more than aven wiki

and should have more substance to it than just..well it is wether you agree or not..because most know sexual attraction as even the english dictionary describes it..sexual attraction

birdy..no worries or rush

i never have found aven wiki to reliable anyway

[MadRat]

If you were heterosexual man (attracted to many, many women) and then you felt sexually attracted to one man (only one in your whole life), would you consider yourself bisexual because of it? I doubt it. So I don´t think I should regard myself as sexual only because of one special person. It´s not normal feeling for me to be sexually attracted to someone. I can´t label myself according to this abnormal feeling. I label myself according to my normal, usual feelings.

[NamTar]

there is a clear and good reason why grey/demis would have questions asked as the difference appears that many do have a sexual attraction..which is completely opposite to the definition of asexuality

I think hazmat already explained that:

sexual=can experience primary sexual attraction

grey=doesn't experience primary, only secondary

asexual=none of the above

I'm going to give the same definition for gray-A as I gave on the KoST forum.

Similar to the dual definition model...

Gray-A:

1. Someone who experiences sexual attraction with low frequency, low intensity, in narrow circumstances, or ambiguously.

2. Someone who identifies as gray-A.

I'm going to really hammer on the possibility of low intensity sexual attraction or ambiguous sexual attraction, since they have not been mentioned up to this point. Saying that you either feel sexually attracted to someone or you don't is a binary--and for many people a false binary.

Thank you for that. I am one of the ambiguous ones, also low frequency (a few times in my life) and low intensity, so essentially that is why I identify more with asexuality than sexuality.

[PiF]

As a definition

If i steal a sweet from a shop ... and another steals 100k from a bank.... Are we both thieves?

Of course... We both steal.. The amounts are of no consequence

see i have always said you define as you wan't ... It's your right

But to explain to others why there is a clear contradiction and the only thing you can point to is a made up distinction by aven wiki... isn't enough

You know when newbies come lookin they are looking for more...and we need to be clearer when they do come

[nleseul]

now..the answer that anyone who is unsure and comes looking in this forum..should be based on something more than aven wiki

You do know that if you reject the AVEN wiki as a source, then you pretty much have no support for the definition of asexuality as "lack of sexual attraction" either, right?

[PiF]

of course your'e wrong nie ..as i'm pretty sure the definition was around a loooonnnnnggggg time well before aven wiki

aven wiki is a source of information that gives one websites opinions on a subject..please do not think aven speaks for all asexuals or aven is the only asexual site

[Epochryphal]

See, this does not feel like a safe space for the greys, demis and semisexuals it was created for, because when we get upset about someone coming into our forum and not listening to our (initially very patient) 101-explanation and calling for "more sources" and repeatedly dismissing our identities, words, and experiences… when we get frustrated, we get called out for not being patient enough, not working hard enough. Who was rude first? I mean really now. I extra-appreciate the threats to delete the forum because we're pointing out ways it's unsafe. We are not just here to learn and teach, we are here to support demis and greys, and there is damage being done when people continue to ignore correct information and put down our self-definitions - damage to us and to future readers.

Part of this forum is for those of us who identify as grey, demi, or semisexual to explore what that means for us, in a safe environment, without judgment, and from *there* begin to better define what those words mean. The idea of this forum should NOT be "to sit there and constantly educate asexuals about greys and demi's." If you were worried it would be divisive, well, that is how.

AVENwiki entries have come about through extensive community dialogue. They are condensed, certainly, and you may not be able to see the process that went into them, but to dismiss them as "only one source" and "not reliable" is to write off huge conversations and models which multiple people have invested time into. And it is furthermore ridiculous to call for sources about our identities other than our lived experiences. Great to get more than just AVENites' opinions. But to insist on that, on AVEN? What? Google it, put it into tumblr, good heavens.

It is ridiculous to create a binary, wherein if anyone feels sexual attraction at all, then omg they feel sexual attraction instantly sexual because, y'know, all experiences of sexual attraction are the same. Just like all prison sentences for all sizes of theft are the same, right? Oh wait- no. Under a certain amount and there's no prison time at all. Oh look, that's a good metaphor.

Also, for the record, primary vs secondary sexual attraction is one particular model, Rabger's model, and the AVENwiki article links to a more detailed discussion. Not everyone likes this model. Sometimes demisexuals are defined as experiencing secondary sexual attraction only – which translates to the more common definition, that they only experience sexual attraction after forming an emotional connection.

Grey-asexuals, however, may experience primary and/or secondary sexual attraction, and may do so with low intensity, low frequency, in narrow circumstances, or ambiguously (to steal Siggy's definition). It does not have to follow an emotional connection.

Yes, greys "fill in the gradient" between asexual and sexual. But this is not to say that asexual is one tiny point, sexual is another, and everyone else is grey. This is like saying: gender binary, man is one tiny point, woman is the other, and most people fall in-between and are therefore genderqueer. Nope.

First off, not everyone feels they fit "in-between" man and woman or as some combination (I sure don't; I'm not even on that spectrum); similarly, some demi folks might not feel like a mix so much as on a different scale (I don't think "halfway" makes much sense). Secondly, this devalues the experience of people who actually identify as genderqueer or grey, by saying "well most people aren't absolutely in this tiny point at the end of the scale anyway, they're like you." There are issues specific to actively identifying outside these binaries.

And those end points, are actually much bigger ranges. "Man" and "Woman" encompass a lot of room. So does "Sexual," and yes, so does "Asexual." There are variations/gradients within those categories. It is not that sexual = white, asexual = black, and all grey = grey-asexuals. It is that sexual = white-ish and grey-white, asexual = black-ish and grey-black, and grey = grey, with liberty to blur those boundaries a little bit too.

To say that grey or demi is common and default and idealized is to erase the struggles of people who have had to coin those words to describe themselves and their experience of difference. Most people feel no need to search for these words, just go on living their lives without internal conflict or identity crisis. That is a big enough difference to say this is not "normal." Yes, we are going to react vehemently because you are asserting that there is no problem here and no difference in lived experience between us and the people it doesn't bother, so we're making a big deal out of nothing. You, who, oh yes, have not identified or felt this way. Surprise, you are wrong.

It doesn't matter how much someone grey "appears" sexual, just as it doesn't matter how much someone asexual "appears" sexual. What matters is internal experience and the identity they tell you. You don't have to understand, but you best Respect. And you don't do that by whining "I don't understand, I think you're wrong."

[eamonn]

From what I've seen, most people define "demisexual" as people who develop sexual feelings only for those with whom they have some kind of emotional (usually romantic) bond. And PiF is right in saying that these people are, "technically" sexual. Still, they might feel out of place in society, so the point is moot. I do think there are probably a lot of people around who don't feel "primary" sexual attraction all that much.

So, demisexuality is fairly easy to pin down. Grey-asexual is much more difficult, but it almost seems paradoxical to try to pin it down. After all, the "grey" refers to ambiguity, does it not? It's for those who don't fit into absolute asexuality (i.e. no attraction whatsoever) but also feel out of place amongst broader sexual culture.

The AVEN definition of asexual actually includes people who feel "little or no" sexual attraction, and thereby includes some people who might count as "grey". But then, the AVEN definition was made to be inclusive, after all.

[michaeld]

It's like defining light versus dark. Technically and strictly, dark means absolutely no light at all. But if you were receiving one photon per second, it would be a little ridiculous to call it anything but dark.

[Guest]

See, this does not feel like a safe space for the greys, demis and semisexuals it was created for, because when we get upset about someone coming into our forum and not listening to our (initially very patient) 101-explanation and calling for "more sources" and repeatedly dismissing our identities, words, and experiences… when we get frustrated, we get called out for not being patient enough, not working hard enough. Who was rude first? I mean really now. I extra-appreciate the threats to delete the forum because we're pointing out ways it's unsafe. We are not just here to learn and teach, we are here to support demis and greys, and there is damage being done when people continue to ignore correct information and put down our self-definitions - damage to us and to future readers.

Part of this forum is for those of us who identify as grey, demi, or semisexual to explore what that means for us, in a safe environment, without judgment, and from *there* begin to better define what those words mean. The idea of this forum should NOT be "to sit there and constantly educate asexuals about greys and demi's." If you were worried it would be divisive, well, that is how.

AVENwiki entries have come about through extensive community dialogue. They are condensed, certainly, and you may not be able to see the process that went into them, but to dismiss them as "only one source" and "not reliable" is to write off huge conversations and models which multiple people have invested time into. And it is furthermore ridiculous to call for sources about our identities other than our lived experiences. Great to get more than just AVENites' opinions. But to insist on that, on AVEN? What? Google it, put it into tumblr, good heavens.

It is ridiculous to create a binary, wherein if anyone feels sexual attraction at all, then omg they feel sexual attraction instantly sexual because, y'know, all experiences of sexual attraction are the same. Just like all prison sentences for all sizes of theft are the same, right? Oh wait- no. Under a certain amount and there's no prison time at all. Oh look, that's a good metaphor.

Also, for the record, primary vs secondary sexual attraction is one particular model, Rabger's model, and the AVENwiki article links to a more detailed discussion. Not everyone likes this model. Sometimes demisexuals are defined as experiencing secondary sexual attraction only – which translates to the more common definition, that they only experience sexual attraction after forming an emotional connection.

Grey-asexuals, however, may experience primary and/or secondary sexual attraction, and may do so with low intensity, low frequency, in narrow circumstances, or ambiguously (to steal Siggy's definition). It does not have to follow an emotional connection.

Yes, greys "fill in the gradient" between asexual and sexual. But this is not to say that asexual is one tiny point, sexual is another, and everyone else is grey. This is like saying: gender binary, man is one tiny point, woman is the other, and most people fall in-between and are therefore genderqueer. Nope.

First off, not everyone feels they fit "in-between" man and woman or as some combination (I sure don't; I'm not even on that spectrum); similarly, some demi folks might not feel like a mix so much as on a different scale (I don't think "halfway" makes much sense). Secondly, this devalues the experience of people who actually identify as genderqueer or grey, by saying "well most people aren't absolutely in this tiny point at the end of the scale anyway, they're like you." There are issues specific to actively identifying outside these binaries.

And those end points, are actually much bigger ranges. "Man" and "Woman" encompass a lot of room. So does "Sexual," and yes, so does "Asexual." There are variations/gradients within those categories. It is not that sexual = white, asexual = black, and all grey = grey-asexuals. It is that sexual = white-ish and grey-white, asexual = black-ish and grey-black, and grey = grey, with liberty to blur those boundaries a little bit too.

To say that grey or demi is common and default and idealized is to erase the struggles of people who have had to coin those words to describe themselves and their experience of difference. Most people feel no need to search for these words, just go on living their lives without internal conflict or identity crisis. That is a big enough difference to say this is not "normal." Yes, we are going to react vehemently because you are asserting that there is no problem here and no difference in lived experience between us and the people it doesn't bother, so we're making a big deal out of nothing. You, who, oh yes, have not identified or felt this way. Surprise, you are wrong.

It doesn't matter how much someone grey "appears" sexual, just as it doesn't matter how much someone asexual "appears" sexual. What matters is internal experience and the identity they tell you. You don't have to understand, but you best Respect. And you don't do that by whining "I don't understand, I think you're wrong."

Posts like these need a like button. I really wish this was a safe space. Truly I do. But the way that people are treating it makes me feel more unwelcome here than before. I know I didn't support this forum idea when it started but I was willing to do something called "change my mind" if the idea actually turned out to be a good one. It turns out that although Birdwing had good intentions for this forum, it isn't being used the way that she expected it to or in a way that can help us as a community. Instead it has been extremely divisive already.

So now I'm going to open this up to all of AVEN: is this area supposed to be a safe-space or not?

[PiF]

It is a safe place .. One where you should be able to exchange opinions and views wether you agree or not

If however your not after such a place but one with ... If you don't agree with us then you can't come in ...pinned to the door then very little will be gained

Thankfully we have more open and willing for this forum to work than those saying.... mum ... Mum....he doesn't agree with me .. Shut the nasty place down

It's not a nasty place ... Never will be.. It needs to be the best informed because it's target audience is likely to be the biggest

Michael ... Your a contradiction in a nice way... Being a mathmatician you know incorrect and vague sums rarely gives the best information

And lets be honest that us what this is for

This forum will work, it will work well and if the right questions are asked... Should give many answers to those seeking them

[Member33070]

I admit that some of this arguing is a little rude but I'm not seeing a division yet. This forum is new and its not going to be perfect immediately. I appreciate that this important thing has been brought up - we need to gather these resources that we do have and put them in a stickied thread in here. I think it's much better that it's PiF asking these questions (an established member who knows us and is familiar somewhat with our sources) instead of a very very short tempered newbie or troll (who would not sit here and wait for us to get our resources together). I don't think PiF is trying to divide or shoot us down at all, and reacting that way isn't helping. Imagine that PiF IS a confused newbie member if it helps, and that you know nothing about them. Now are you going to sit there and say "Ahh, you're being mean, you're bein divisive, why can't you accept this one definition that I made up?" Fact is, people are going to be rude and divisive anywhere. You have to figure out the best way to deal with it, which in my opinion is - try to understand where the person is coming from and educate where you can.

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone. I DO see where PiF is coming from, and I do see where everyone else is coming from. We need a good definition, and yet, at this point, we don't really have much to go on. That was one of the goals of the subforum, to pin this information down, and understand it. Perhaps if, once I gather the information that I do have later today for the stickies thread I'll try to make (please PM me anything you feel might be useful) I'll also post the goals of the subforum and that some of these things are still being worked on.

I am still on my phone and the wifi place doesn't open for a few hours. Please try not to blow up the forum in the meantime... Lol

[Guest member25959]

I'm coming into this debate a little late, but....at the moment, I don't think there is an actual solid definition of Asexuality, outside of AVEN, as is the same with many of the labels we use here, and...

Asexuality (sometimes referred to as nonsexuality), in its broadest sense, is the lack of sexual attraction and the lack of interest in and desire for sex

I've always looked at it this way. It doesn't matter what else is experienced, what else is felt, what we like and what we don't like, if we don't experience sexual attraction (or lack it), then that makes us Asexual. So personally, as far as I'm concerned, if one does not experience sexual attraction, they are considered Asexual in my book. Because as it stands, that's pretty much what Asexuality is.

[honor is all]

From what I've seen, most people define "demisexual" as people who develop sexual feelings only for those with whom they have some kind of emotional (usually romantic) bond. And PiF is right in saying that these people are, "technically" sexual. Still, they might feel out of place in society, so the point is moot. I do think there are probably a lot of people around who don't feel "primary" sexual attraction all that much.

So, demisexuality is fairly easy to pin down. Grey-asexual is much more difficult, but it almost seems paradoxical to try to pin it down. After all, the "grey" refers to ambiguity, does it not? It's for those who don't fit into absolute asexuality (i.e. no attraction whatsoever) but also feel out of place amongst broader sexual culture.

The AVEN definition of asexual actually includes people who feel "little or no" sexual attraction, and thereby includes some people who might count as "grey". But then, the AVEN definition was made to be inclusive, after all.

[Applause bows] My thoughts exactly Eamonn. I mean imagine this scenario: Office: A slim, long-legged woman in her mid-twenties walks in wearing a miniskirt.

Guy 1: Woooah, look at her legs!

Demi-guy: [matter o fact tone]: Yeah they are long. (supposing he is an aesthete he could even think they were beautiful)

Guy2: What do you mean yeah they are long. Don't you like totally wwanna do her?

Demi-guy: No.

Guys 1&2: But look at her legs.

Demi-guy: So. What do they have to do with me doing her. I don't even know her for god's sake.

And here is the difference and the reason why demi are almost as outcast as aces. Because most people can make the connection between physical attractivness and "doing" that person and demis can't. They have to know the person their personality, likes and dislikes, some core values, etcBtw as a full ace I totally get demi sexuality but still can't grasp primary sexuality. I mean seriously what do long legs or broad shoulders have anyhting to do with wanting to bed someone? <_<

[Jen2005]

I do want to point out that this was the first link I clicked on when I saw this because this is the exact question that I have not been able to answer fully. This is what I have been looking into and listening to people talk about just because it is NOT clear. And this topic, in itself, I believe is not only beneficial, but necessary. We just need to come up with some answer to post so that people coming in don't have to read all this to get the answer they are looking for.

From what I've read, the different types of attraction only apply when determining asexuality-demisexuality-sexuality distinction. That is the difference between demisexuality and grey-a. Grey-a is anything between asexuality (which has a clear line) and 'normal' sexuality (which does not have a clear line, and mostly depends on the individual's view of 'normal' sexuality).

I think it would be easier if 'grey-a' wasn't really one category. As it stands, someone who feels that they have sex less than the average sexual (and thinks the average sexual never stops thinking of sex) is grey-a, and the person who thinks they felt sexual attraction a couple times, so they don't really want to be called asexual, but it was never acted on and they have never actually HAD sex - that person is also grey-a. they are two completely different extremes of it, but looking at this, grey-a, while it certainly exists, as its definition stands, is a useless title. You can say you are grey-a, but it tells the person you're speaking to absolutely nothing. Also, an accurate definition of 'normal sexuality' would be handy here. But looking at this environment and how much overthinking (use of this word is my opinion only and not meant offensively) goes into it, coming to a clear decision of what 'normal sexuality' is seems near to impossible.

This is based on what I've read and what I've heard from a friend of mine (claims she is technically asexual, but maybe falls into the grey-a area a little, depending on the definition of 'attraction' - again with definition problems). I, myself, am plain heterosexual. So this is just the opinion of an outside perspective. It's just what I've been able to find in my own attempts to understand conversations here.

[Guest]

I'm coming into this debate a little late, but....at the moment, I don't think there is an actual solid definition of Asexuality, outside of AVEN, as is the same with many of the labels we use here, and...

Asexuality (sometimes referred to as nonsexuality), in its broadest sense, is the lack of sexual attraction and the lack of interest in and desire for sex

I've always looked at it this way. It doesn't matter what else is experienced, what else is felt, what we like and what we don't like, if we don't experience sexual attraction (or lack it), then that makes us Asexual. So personally, as far as I'm concerned, if one does not experience sexual attraction, they are considered Asexual in my book. Because as it stands, that's pretty much what Asexuality is.

I don't mind that definition actually. I was thinking about it and I think it is better to say that greys and demis are on the asexual spectrum but aren't technically asexual.

[Member33070]

I started some explanation threads using some quotes from the wiki.

It should filter out the more massive misconceptions that seem to be floating around.

What is Gray:

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php?/topic/65451-what-is-gray/

What is Demi:

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php?/topic/65452-what-is-demi/

It's not as pretty or perfect as I want right now...but I am without housing and currently living with my parents. I need to hunt for apartments for fall. I hope this helps some.

[Guest]

From what I've seen, most people define "demisexual" as people who develop sexual feelings only for those with whom they have some kind of emotional (usually romantic) bond. And PiF is right in saying that these people are, "technically" sexual. Still, they might feel out of place in society, so the point is moot. I do think there are probably a lot of people around who don't feel "primary" sexual attraction all that much.

Thanks, Eamonn. There is just no way that gray is anything but "sexual". It takes a lot of self-serving wordsmithing to work backward into a position that "feeling sexual attraction" does not equal "sexual".

And it's also true that there are a lot of people who don't feel "primary" sexual attraction. Using that as a definition of "sexual" is, IMO, incorrect. It would be like if my friends and I all decided to call ourselves "fewsies" because when we go out, we only have "a few" drinks. And then jumping up and down saying "we're a minority! There are only 4 fewsies in the world!" When in actuality, there are gazillions... we're just the only ones using the term.

[NamTar]

As somebody said already, if people in these categories were "normal" and felt part of "normal" sexual culture, there would be no reason for them to even name themselves as something else. anyone who falls in the asexual spectrum is seen as damaged or abnormal by many people, and why would anyone bring that on themselves unless they felt at odds with "normal" sexuality?

Personally, I identify more with asexuals because I've been celibate for more than a decade and have no desire to act on any potential sexual urge, in the unlikely event I experience such urges, which I largely do not. I consider myself grey because I know I am capable of experiencing some sort of sexual attraction, but to me, this attraction seems very different than the way sexuals experience it.

But yeah, i'm getting a "greys don't exist" vibe from a lot of these posts. I see sexuality as a very complex spectrum, not a binary thing, and I think some experience some aspects and some people experience others.

[PiF]

But yeah, i'm getting a "greys don't exist" vibe from a lot of these posts. I see sexuality as a very complex spectrum, not a binary thing, and I think some experience some aspects and some people experience others.

the definition maybe not everyones cuppa tea...but make no doubt..demis/greys/semis..are as equally valid as people in aven as any other and i for one am sure it would be a worse place without them