To Sexual Partners

[Sally]

Probably everything that could be said has been said here (and on other threads) *but*, of course, I've thought of something else.

Put simply, sex bores and/or annoys asexuals. But it's even worse than boredom, because if they are having sex with a partner they love in order to try to maintain a relationship, along with being boring and annoying, sex is also frought with anxiety, because asexuals don't usually *do* sex very well and know that their partner will know that they don't like it; thus, they're not giving their partner a *really good time*. Not at all a good scenario to have to look forward to into the future.

The difference in what happens in a sexual/asexual marriage is this:

The sexual gets a little of what they want, but not as much as they want.

The asexual must do what they *never* want to do, as much as they can stand.

Is that fairly clear?

I think we should talk in those terms, not the "deaf/blind" terms, because we really don't know each other's experiences. No sexual can know what an asexual feels during sex, anymore than an asexual can know what a sexual feels. Let's stop with the subjective experiences talk, and just concentrate on what people like and dislike. That's what we're *really* talking about here.

I REALLY dislike sex. You REALLY like sex. So what's the compromise?

And then we get to the real nub: There may be no satisfactory compromise.

If the sexual doesn't allow him/herself to recognize that there may be no compromise, then it will be just a constant campaign to get the asexual to accommodate the sexual, because in this world, the sexual is the default. (Just as--back to the hated deaf/blind analogy--hearing and seeing people are the default.) The norm is the default, and asexuals very well know that. THAT...rather than "missing" the experience of sex...is what makes us feel crappy when confronted with a semi-demanding sexual. We DON'T want sex, and we DON'T want to be made to feel crappy because of our dislike.

Well, that's another lecture, isn't it.

[Olivier]

Lumping asexuals together with analogies of the deaf and blind DOES imply a similarity

Indeed, I do think asexuality and deafness have much in common. I did not claim that they are not similar (in fact I defended the view that they are), but that there's no need to see either as a disability. Seeing either as a disability to me implies that utter conformity with norms is a goal, and that's not a theory I subscribe to. If you want the clearest parallel between the deaf community and the asexual one, I think it's political. Read any deaf forum/political statement and the rhetoric of "we don't want/need to be fixed/pitied, we just want to get on with being ourselves" is practically identical to what you read daily on AVEN. I maintain that as much as you take offense at being compared to a group seen by some as disabled, you give just as much offense by saying of the deaf: "Please let nobody think or say we're like them".

But still, lets just talk about sex :)

Put simply, sex bores and/or annoys asexuals. But it's even worse than boredom, because if they are having sex with a partner they love in order to try to maintain a relationship, along with being boring and annoying, sex is also frought with anxiety, because asexuals don't usually *do* sex very well and know that their partner will know that they don't like it; thus, they're not giving their partner a *really good time*. Not at all a good scenario to have to look forward to into the future.

The difference in what happens in a sexual/asexual marriage is this:

The sexual gets a little of what they want, but not as much as they want.

The asexual must do what they *never* want to do, as much as they can stand.

Is that fairly clear?

It is, but my point is that there's more symmetry in the situation than you portray...

Put simply, abstinence frustrates and/or annoys sexuals. But it's even worse than frustration, because if they are minimising sex with a partner they love in order to try to maintain a relationship, along with being frustrating and annoying, abstinence is also fraught with anxiety, because sexuals don't usually *do* abstinence in the face of desire very well and know that their partner will know that they're frustrated; thus, they're not giving their partner a real lack of pressure. And even if they have sex, the sexual may feel that their sexual fulfillment is tainted by feelings of selfishness. Not at all a good scenario to have to look forward to into the future.

The difference in what happens in a sexual/asexual marriage is this:

The asexual gets quite a lot of what they want (sex-free intimacy), but not *all* the time.

The sexual must do what they *never* want to do (abstain in the face of sexual desire, and even during sex know they are sexually undesired), as much as they can stand.

And really it's not as bad as all that. When sex is given and accepted as a gift, and never demanded, then that generosity makes up for the lack of desire. Both are expressions of love, and unless one or both parties is determined to insist on love being delivered in the exact form that they idealise, solutions are possible. Good communication can help the both partners feel that their sexuality is accepted, and not seen as selfish, and likewise can provide reassurance that any sacrifices are being made willingly out of love, not out of fear of ending the relationship.

I don't expect my wife to suddenly develop raging sexual desire for me, no matter how nice that would be for me, and she does not expect that I would be happy to give up sex entirely, and rely solely on non-physical intimacy, no matter how strong and rewarding that side of our relationship is for us both.

But I agree with you, sometimes what people want is just too different, and there's no overlap. But until both sides accept that there's a gap, and both start working to bridge it, you don't know if the gap's too wide. If one or both parties insist on standing on their bank of the river, and waiting for the other to build the bridge all by themselves, then even if the gap is small enough, and gets bridged, then the solo bridge-builder may still be bitter that their partner got to stay right where they wanted and didn't lift a finger to help.

But it most certainly cuts both ways. We've had a couple of rough patches in the sexual side of our marriage, and I've experienced the strains that come from each side, sexual and asexual, quitting with the bridge building. I wouldn't say one's any worse than the other. I'm just glad we were able to sort it out each time, and I think the fact that at different times we've both been guilty of standing back and letting the other do all the compromising is oddly helpful, as neither of us has the high moral ground, and we both know what's like when the other isn't pulling their share.

[Sally]

I maintain that as much as you take offense at being compared to a group seen by some as disabled, you give just as much offense by saying of the deaf: "Please let nobody think or say we're like them".

The asexual gets quite a lot of what they want (sex-free intimacy), but not *all* the time.

This is an interesting conversation, so I'll continue it.

First point above: No, asexuals don't take offense at being compared to a disabled group. We're not thinking, "No, we're not like them!" I understand deaf people wanting to be proactive (it's similar to the developmentally disabled advocacy groups which say "we're people first"). However, being deaf or being blind is greatly hampering in ordinary society. You need separate literature if you're blind, and a cane, seeing eye dog or companion; if you're deaf, you need to read lips or use a TTY system by phone. If you're asexual, UNLESS you are involved with a sexual person who wants sex, there's no accommodation needed. You can just live your life; the world is the same for sexual and asexual.

It's only--ONLY--when you are in a relationship with a sexual that you experience any "handicaps." So a sexual doesn't really have a good idea of how an asexual lives, because they may only see the A in juxtaposition to what the sexual wants.

That's why we don't like having asexuality being compared to other conditions that are normally thought of as hampering or limiting or "special". We're simply people who don't like sex.

Second point: No, in a sexual/asexual relationship, the asexual doesn't get what they want (sex-free intimacy). I know that first-hand. I always was aware that my partner wanted what I couldn't give, even when I would try to give it to him. Happy sex-free intimacy doesn't happen when one person is satisfied and the other isn't, unless the asexual partner is pretty stupid and insensitive. Most of us aren't. So, in sexual relationships between a sexual and an asexual, I don't think anyone is getting what they want. In other areas of the relationship, yes, depending on the people.

I've long since gone past the point of repeating myself so...

[Olivier]

*is feeling a bit "dog with a bone" himself*

First point above:

...

It's only--ONLY--when you are in a relationship with a sexual that you experience any "handicaps." So a sexual doesn't really have a good idea of how an asexual lives, because they may only see the A in juxtaposition to what the sexual wants.

But that's the only context the comparison was made in

Second point: No, in a sexual/asexual relationship, the asexual doesn't get what they want (sex-free intimacy). I know that first-hand. I always was aware that my partner wanted what I couldn't give, even when I would try to give it to him. Happy sex-free intimacy doesn't happen when one person is satisfied and the other isn't, unless the asexual partner is pretty stupid and insensitive. Most of us aren't. So, in sexual relationships between a sexual and an asexual, I don't think anyone is getting what they want. In other areas of the relationship, yes, depending on the people.

But the sexual doesn't get what they want (to be sexually desired), either. And as a sexual, I'm also aware that I can't give my partner what she wants, or more specifically I can't change myself to be non-sexual, just by trying, and trying in fact was a disaster, just as it can be for asexuals who try to will themselves into being sexual.

But I will stand up and say I'm damned happy in my relationship where neither of us "gets what we want". Once we both take into account what we want for the relationship, not just for ourselves, then it's easier for behaviour to follow and become what's best for the relationship, and not just for ourselves, too. Even though neither of us is attaining, or even pursuing, our ideal, it's not like putting the relationship first is denying ourselves our true natures, because the relationship just doesn't exist independently of us. It's not some third thing that comes before our own needs, it is us, and both of us get a great deal of satisfaction from it thriving, certainly more satisfaction that we would get by imposing our needs unilaterally on the other and seeing them miserable as a result.

A real key here is that we've moved past compromising just on quantity of sex. If that's the only compromise, then some of the dynamics you cite will come into play, for sure. Instead we're coming up with many more "pseudosexual" things that are a bit more win-win, while still also having sex sometimes, and doing nothing plenty, too. While I like sex, I also like non-sexual intimacy, so it's not really a case of my wife feeling like I'm frustrated by that, so that does provide common ground. And likewise we've found things that have a sexual element for me that aren't an imposition on my wife in the way that intercourse is, and we win there too.

I guess just to mangle my own analogy about bridges over rivers, we've had quite some success by taking a break from bridge-maintenance and just mucking about together in boats. And learning to laugh if we screw up and end up in the river

[sexless_sue]

I'm married to an asexual going on 11 years now.He is my second husband as my first one passed away.I enjoyed lots of sex in the first marriage but have not had any I can remember in this marriage.I have been on an emotional rollercoaster for 11 years not knowing what the problem was.He would often explain it away with things like your tubes are tied and you can't give me any children,your to fat,he's to tired and many more reasons not to have sex. So I have felt inadequate and lost my self esteem.Anytime I bring up the subject he gives me another reason for not wanting sex(usually my fault). After finding this site lots of things have fallen into place for me. So if I can be of use to anyone in the form of answering some questions feel free to ask me anything. Some of you might want to know why we have stayed together so long!Well I do love him and for some strange reason attracted to him.I often tell him that the one thing that would make our marriage perfect would be sex.But because no sex ever ,it makes me not trust him either.I also wonder why I stay married and if this marriage can still work!Is love enough?There is just so much turmoil inside of me for him making a choice of no sex,I feel cheated because I don't have a say!

Thanks for listening.

[Olivier]

There is just so much turmoil inside of me for him making a choice of no sex,I feel cheated because I don't have a say!

Hi Sue, and welcome

This is a point that comes up over and over again in this forum, and I wonder if anyone wants to take a swing at it:

Given that it's a crime for a sexual to impose sexual behaviour on your partner (or anyone) without consent, but possible for someone to impose abstinence on another within a relationship, how come it's the asexual partners are the ones who feel pressured, when they have the control? Of course the sexual can bully, or leave the relationship, but those are an option for the asexual, too, so I'm not sure that squares up the ledger. Mutual consent being required for sex, but not for abstinence, is one of the few non-symmetrical issues in asexual/sexual relationships, and it runs in the asexual's favour. Is it unreasonable, or too cynical, to expect that the availability of a one-sided power will be abused by some? And should this abuse not be called abuse?

And why is the (often just as constant) pressure of sexual frustration so often trivialised? Is it just from a lack of empathy derived from not sharing the emotion, or a view that sex is a luxury, not a basic need?

(and while I'm feeling up for a debate, let's not have one about rape - I'm sure everyone here agrees that mutual consent being required for sex is a good idea, and that rape is abhorrent, and that withholding sex and rape should not be regarded as equivalent - it's just the power/control implications of the fact that they're different that interests me)

[happylife]

So I have felt inadequate and lost my self esteem.Anytime I bring up the subject he gives me another reason for not wanting sex(usually my fault). After finding this site lots of things have fallen into place for me.

Now you know that it is not necessary to take all of his words thrown at you literally and get hurt,,(right?). It's just your husband doesn't want something you do. And you want something he doesn't. Simple as that. Do not let yourself have low self esteem because of that.

So if I can be of use to anyone in the form of answering some questions feel free to ask me anything. Some of you might want to know why we have stayed together so long!Well I do love him and for some strange reason attracted to him.

Here is the question. Why have you chosen to stay with your husband? For 11 years. Loving him.. I guess. I sometimes wonder why sexuals do not leave asexual partners when they are frustrated by lack of sex or too littl sex in their relationships.

I often tell him that the one thing that would make our marriage perfect would be sex.But because no sex ever ,it makes me not trust him either.I also wonder why I stay married and if this marriage can still work!Is love enough?There is just so much turmoil inside of me for him making a choice of no sex,I feel cheated because I don't Thanks for listening.

It seems like some kind of emotional power dynamics is being going on. I am a bit frustrated right now by not having a brilliant solution to this. I am sorry. :( Thank you for being here with us. I believe your telling us your experiences will help us understand sexuals better.

[happylife]

Mutual consent being required for sex, but not for abstinence, is one of the few non-symmetrical issues in asexual/sexual relationships, and it runs in the asexual's favour. Is it unreasonable, or too cynical, to expect that the availability of a one-sided power will be abused by some? And should this abuse not be called abuse?

And why is the (often just as constant) pressure of sexual frustration so often trivialised? Is it just from a lack of empathy derived from not sharing the emotion, or a view that sex is a luxury, not a basic need?

it does sound like an abusive behavior to me. maybe it's some sort of emotional abuse then. yeah.. emotional abuse. from other posts i got a feeling that being sexual can be painful sometimes.

[UltraViolet]

[ultraviolet] Lumping asexuals together with analogies of the deaf and blind DOES imply a similarity

[Olivier] Indeed, I do think asexuality and deafness have much in common. I did not claim that they are not similar (in fact I defended the view that they are), but that there's no need to see either as a disability. Seeing either as a disability to me implies that utter conformity with norms is a goal, and that's not a theory I subscribe to. If you want the clearest parallel between the deaf community and the asexual one, I think it's political. Read any deaf forum/political statement and the rhetoric of "we don't want/need to be fixed/pitied, we just want to get on with being ourselves" is practically identical to what you read daily on AVEN. I maintain that as much as you take offense at being compared to a group seen by some as disabled, you give just as much offense by saying of the deaf: "Please let nobody think or say we're like them".

I'm not trying to be offensive to the blind and deaf but the bottom line is - we are not like them - in day to day living anyway (their politics being the exception). I also do not like to subscribe to social norms but I can't help but be affected by them. Society does view being blind and deaf as a major handicap, and, as pointed out by Sally, being blind and deaf affects the entirety of their existence and their condition does impact society in general as well due to the special considerations needed to accomodate them. The last thing the AVEN commumity needs is to be viewed as having a disability be it one that "parallels" the blind and deaf or any other disability that society might want to pin on us. Asexuality only affects "society" if we have a sexual partner (tho for some couples the differences are easier to negotiate than with others). We do not need any special accomodation from society in general. I also say this again - in this day in age when many conditions can be fixed most blind and deaf people would want their conditions fixed whereas no asexuals (that I've seen or read about anyway) want to be "fixed".

[Olivier]

^^ Indeed the parallels are not exact, for all the reasons that you and Sally listed. But in the areas they line up, like politics and the difficulty of explaining an sexual/musical experience to someone who does not perceive such things, they sometimes line up very closely indeed. And I agree that a disability label is utterly inappropriate when in fact even the key political stance is more in line with treatment of minorities generally, not just the disabled.

One thing that follows from the impact of asexuality being less visible than, say, deafness is that the same things that make it invisible outside a relationship can also make it invisible inside a relationship, or even to an asexual themselves, which is why visibility projects are so important. I mean, nobody gets into a relationship only to discover later that only one partner can hear, but this happens with asexuality all the time. Where someone sits on the sexuality spectrum just seems harder to pin down in so many respects than something like hearing ability, which is relatively non-controversial to measure and define.

[sexless_sue]

Well it's me again.I have been asked why I stay in my sexless marriage and I think companionship has a lot to do with it.My husband and I do love each other still and even if no sex ...when I look in the future I can't imagine life without him.I have suffered many great losses in my life,my first husband died after a long illness and recently my oldest son.Maybe with these losses it has made me more tollerant of my sexless marriage or who knows maybe I'm just scared of being alone.It is helping me to figure things out by being on this site and listening to what people have to say.Ending a marriage should never be taken lightly is my belief but it's also hard to keep trying when sleeping in seperate rooms one wanting sex the other not!

[daddyhammer]

I wish I hadn't used the deaf/blind analogy. *Sorry*. Attempting to making a delicate point with the verbal equivalent of a sledge hammer is not a particularly kind thing to do.

"sex is also frought with anxiety, because asexuals don't usually *do* sex very well and know that their partner will know that they don't like it; thus, they're not giving their partner a *really good time*."

Thank you so much for that observation. Oddly enough, because of my lack of experience that applies more to me than my bf. I'm trying to relax and have fun with whatever degree of sexuality he's comfortable with at the moment... then being sincerely loving and grateful for the chance to express it.

Damn, I'm very much in love with him this morning. :)

[daddyhammer]

I REALLY dislike sex. You REALLY like sex. So what's the compromise?

My perception is "You really dislike sex. I really need sex."

[happylife]

Well it's me again.I have been asked why I stay in my sexless marriage and I think companionship has a lot to do with it.My husband and I do love each other still and even if no sex ...when I look in the future I can't imagine life without him.I have suffered many great losses in my life,my first husband died after a long illness and recently my oldest son.Maybe with these losses it has made me more tollerant of my sexless marriage or who knows maybe I'm just scared of being alone.It is helping me to figure things out by being on this site and listening to what people have to say.Ending a marriage should never be taken lightly is my belief but it's also hard to keep trying when sleeping in seperate rooms one wanting sex the other not!

First off, I have to say I am greatly sorry to hear all you have told us. Your first husband's death and the recent loss of your oldest son. I can hardly imagine what it would be like to be you going through them all. My grandmother passed away a few years ago. Before she died she had been ill in bed for a long time. I was emotionally exhausted while taking care of her for about a year, also being grateful for her being alive. Her death tore me apart. But you have lost your husband and son! How can it be compared to my experience!

Reading posts on this site, I have become wondering why sexual people choose to stay with their spouses while even suffering from frustration. Now I know why. Thank you so much! Companionship. How stupid of me! How come I did not think this kind of spiritual & emotional bond could be formed in the relationship between a sexual and an asexual? Also I felt that "Companionship" was like someone else's thing. Not something reserved for me really. Thank you very much again!

There are various sorts of people here on AVEN, hanging out together and supporting one another. I hope what you will be reading on this site help you make a big progress in trying to find the way out.

P.S. Why don't you write up a post describing the current situation you are in and put it up on one of the boards so we can hear other people's opinions? I'd really love to listen to what other ANENites would have to say.

[Sally]

Given that it's a crime for a sexual to impose sexual behaviour on your partner (or anyone) without consent, but possible for someone to impose abstinence on another within a relationship, how come it's the asexual partners are the ones who feel pressured, when they have the control? Of course the sexual can bully, or leave the relationship, but those are an option for the asexual, too, so I'm not sure that squares up the ledger. Mutual consent being required for sex, but not for abstinence, is one of the few non-symmetrical issues in asexual/sexual relationships, and it runs in the asexual's favour. Is it unreasonable, or too cynical, to expect that the availability of a one-sided power will be abused by some? And should this abuse not be called abuse?

And why is the (often just as constant) pressure of sexual frustration so often trivialised? Is it just from a lack of empathy derived from not sharing the emotion, or a view that sex is a luxury, not a basic need?

(and while I'm feeling up for a debate, let's not have one about rape - I'm sure everyone here agrees that mutual consent being required for sex is a good idea, and that rape is abhorrent, and that withholding sex and rape should not be regarded as equivalent - it's just the power/control implications of the fact that they're different that interests me)

This is the real key to our debate. It is a crime (literally) to force yourself (your body, that is) on someone. In law, it's the privacy assumption, and if that privacy is violated, the person doing the violation is charged.

But in the situation we're talking about, there is no common-law assumption of the right of a sexual, say, to have their partner engage in sex with them. The sexual certainly has the right to SEEK sex with anyone they choose -- their partner, whoever. But if that person declines to have sex with them, they are not committing any crime, moral or otherwise, nor should they be pressured to feel that they are. The asexual (in this case, or it could be a sexual in another case) is asserting the privacy of their body (and their inclination/orientation) to refuse sex.

That may be exceedingly frustrating to the sexual, and I would not want to be a sexual in that relationship. Nor would I want to be the asexual. In my very long relationship with a sexual, I never charged him with any faults because I didn't want sex; I never directly refused; I did all that I could to please him. I think I'm more the norm than otherwise, so our conversation here should not talk about asexuals as though we were out there willfully frustrating our partners.

My conclusion remains: Olivier's situation may indeed be satisfactory because both partners feel the relationship is worth compromise. In some of the other relationships that posters have detailed on this thread and others, I can't see that it's worth it. Both partners are unhappy and both seem to be claiming that *they* are the victim and are the most unhappy of the pair. Ick -- who wants that kind of situation?

One more comment: Occasionally on this thread there's been a note of "marital right" -- the duty a marital partner has to have sex with his/her partner. I realize that's pretty universal, but it makes me very uneasy. 30 years ago when I was writing for a small newspaper, there was a case in the US where a wife refused her husband's demand for sex, and he forced himself on her, and she charged him with rape. There was uncertain law at that time whether that could be considered rape, because he was her husband and was owed the right to sex with her (as had been the case in marriage for thousands of years). I haven't read any posts that indicate that's happened with AVEN pairs, but the mere fact that one marital partner feels that marriage gives them the right to sex is uncomfortable to me, and indicates that that idea of "right" underlies all this discussion. Again -- a legal contract of any kind, including marriage, does not give anyone right to violate the privacy of anyone else's body -- male or female.

Don't everyone scream at me for that last comment. Just wanted to get it down on virtual paper.

[AVENCakes]

I REALLY dislike sex. You REALLY like sex. So what's the compromise?

My perception is "You really dislike sex. I really need sex."

My situation is "I really need to not have sex. You really need to." It's not just a dislike, sexual contact is an emotionally traumatic experience for me that I really can't and shouldn't have to tolerate. I realize this isn't true for all ases, but it's true for me.

Again -- a legal contract of any kind, including marriage, does not give anyone right to violate the privacy of anyone else's body -- male or female.

*applause* Definitely true. I hate it when people think that dating/marriage means you have a right to just about anything. Not just in s/a relationships, either.

[AnaV]

Hi

I have never been into a forum before and I have no idea how does it work, so I am sorry if I am replying to an existing pots or if I am something wrong, I just want to share my experience and try find a solution to my situation. I am sorry if it is long or boring, I just have no one to talk to about it.

My husband and I have been together for almost 3 years, we were in different countries for 22 months, so really together for almost a year. The first part of the relationship was sexually active, although I had the feeling that I was the one looking for sex constantly and it was rarely his initiative. The last few months before leaving my country he was sexually more active, and he had finish school and was on vacations. So I thought he was stressed before. We were apart for almost 2 years, and we finally "had" to get marry to get the visa for another country and be together.

Since we are living together our sex life is almost nonexistent, I had experience all those self esteem feelings, rejection, anger, etc. but I had hope that maybe was because of work issues, new life, everything very stressful. I have started to read recently about asexuality and I found this website today. I have read some of the post and I just feel like crying, I think there is no solution for our situation. i read about compromise and I kind of understand that asexulas are equal to sexuals, however, I can not imagine living a life without sex. It is very important to me, not only physically but emotionally. And according to what I have read, there is no option of change, because it is not a problem but a type of person or just a normal characteristic or aspect of life.

We have talked about it, he is reading or listening to me talking about the word asexual and I think he will define himself as asexual. I am very young, mid 20s and I just dont know if I should give up something that I consider so pretty and important (not saying that the rest is not, I just need a balance) for the rest of my life. I really will like some advice or a way to handle the situation, because recently I have started to have a lot of anger towards my husband, kind of blaming him for this situation, and I think it is not fare. I am understanding one (kind of) that he is not doing it on purpose. Thanks for all the help you can give me.

[Av2k]

AnaV

Your story is very similar to mine.

My girlfriend and I have been together almost 5 years, At first she wanted a lot of sex, and she was from overseas so we had to get married because of Visa Issues. Which was fine. I love her and wanted to marry her.

And then things changed and she wanted less and less sex. We have only had sex 1 time in the last 3 years.

It makes me feel like we are some elderly couple, but we are still in our 20's.

Its a really big problem, I love sex, maybe more then most people, and I cant live my life without it. But I love her so much and I dont want to live without her either.

We talked about it lots, And I understand she cant change who she is, She said she will sometimes have sex to make me feel happy. But I dont want that, Its not real if its just a job to her. It makes me feel sick.

Now the problem is all mine, it is no problem for her. I just have to suffer for the rest of my life. Or I break up with her, which will ruin both our lives (At least for some time)

It is a horrible thing to say but sometimes I wish I had never met her and fallen in love, because now I cannot leave.

One thing that makes me angry and jelous is that, I love sex, but she has had more sex then me and with more people. I know that seems petty, but it really annoys me.

And so I wonder if maybe I should just have sex with other people. With her knowledge of course. I know it would hurt her feelings. But I cannot live without sex. Sex that both people enjoy. I cannot live without her either.

Why should I be the only one who feels horrible.

Its very confusing and I dont know what to do. No one seems to have any helpful advice, most of the advice is well meaning but very hollow "You need better communication" for example..it doesnt help us.

I suppose there is no answer.

I know people here try to give advice and are well meaning, Advice like "you need good communication" we do have good communication, it doesnt help us. Or "Focus on the good parts of your life" or "Realise that she loves you" And I know this. But I need sex like I need to eat and breath. I cant just turn it off or ignore it.

So yea, I'm F**ked (but unfortunatly not in the literal sense)

[sonofzeal]

Sounds tough, Av2k. However, there are a variety of options out there, and hopefully you can find one that's enjoyable and satisfying for both you and your partner. Here are a few...

- sex once a week/month/etc - Some asexuals can actually handle sex if given enough time to mentally prepare, and some can even enjoy the experience enough for your needs. Giving the asexual control of the situation can often help.

- non-penetrative intercourse - Some asexuals will be fine with pleasuring their partner in non-penetrative ways, and for most sexuals this will be sufficient

- non-contact mutual masturbation - For asexuals who masturbate, but for whom any sexual contact is squicky (yes, this combination exists), this arrangement can sometimes work. Basically both partners masturbate in the same room, and can choose to watch eachother or not as their preference dictates. This provides the sexual with physical release coupled with at least some of the intimacy they crave from sex.

- assisted masturbation - This is like the previous one, except the asexual partner engages in some non-sexual activity that the sexual partner finds erotic. Possible candidates involve dancing, performing yoga or other exercises, or engaging in some sort of fetish activity. If the asexual is too squicked out by the sight of their sexual partner performing, a blind or webcam system can be arranged. Note that nudity is not required for this, depending on the tastes of the sexual partner in question. Also note that consent is very important; the asexual partner must be fully aware any time this is supposed to happen, even if they chose to turn a blind eye during the process.

- 3rd party sex - The sexual finds someone else to get sexual fulfillment with. This is only a last resort, and is often harmful to the relationship, but if there's a sufficient trust then it can work. The asexual will need to have total veto rights over partners, frequency, acts performed, and any specific engagements. I don't know of any success stories for this, but there's certainly not any success stories for just dumping them. Might be worth a try at least.

[Olivier]

Av2k,

It sounds like you two areas you could work on:

1) If your wife is willing to have sex out of love, rather than attraction, then you could work on taking a more positive view of what she's willing to do for you, and her loving motivations for that. Sure, its not ideal - but as you say you don't want to go looking for a sexual version of your wife, you want her, and so you need to accept things for what they are. She probably feels in just as much of a no-win situation if you're turning down the sex she is willing to have (not to mention that the "sexual sulk" is in itself extremely unattractive, and you really don't need any extra negatives in your sex life, I'm sure.)

2) Experiment with ways of making sex more satisfying for you, and less "sexual" for your wife. A common compromise is for the sexual partner to masturbate while the two of you are kissing/cuddling/stroking/showering/just being together. Some other ideas over here, if you're interested.

As you say you have good communication, what is you wife's explanation for why she went from wanting lots of sex, to just once in three years?

Also...

Now the problem is all mine, it is no problem for her. I just have to suffer for the rest of my life.

I suspect your eternal suffering is a problem for her, but she may feel that you are giving her no way to a solution that doesn't involve her capitulating to your demand that for you to be happy she must not only have sex, but want it, as well - which she may feel she can't do, and still be true to herself.

[Sally]

But I cannot live without sex. Sex that both people enjoy. I cannot live without her either.

I'll say something that won't help you, AV2k, and others will probably disagree with me. However, here goes....

Yes, you can live without her. You lived without her before you met her. However, you may not be able to live WITH her without sex. So that may be your choice.

[eireen]

As i browsed the threads here, There's a thing that is running in my mind? Now am confused also. Am i asexual? Seems i got those signs lately. Is it possible that after a long period of time.. someone just realized that she/he is asexual?

[sonofzeal]

As i browsed the threads here, There's a thing that is running in my mind? Now am confused also. Am i asexual? Seems i got those signs lately. Is it possible that after a long period of time.. someone just realized that she/he is asexual?

Very possible! Most people don't grow up thinking it's an option, so they're unlikely to recognize it in themselves. It's especially subtle if they still feel romantic attraction, and aren't actively repulsed by sex. So yeah, totally possible.

[sexless sexual]

Oh my! So much to answer. Some of it I have already addressed in other threads on this site, not having found this one until today. For those who know my posts - apologies for repetition. For those who do not - feel free to look them up if something I say here is unclear; I've probably gone into more depth somewhere else.

My situation in brief: Husband and I married, both for the first time, later (age 40ish). We married for many reasons, all of them still very much valid. I cannot envision a life without him; the very thought is the stuff of nightmares He did not (and I suspect still does not) understand that he may be asexual. He kept putting me off with talks about how sex could be possible if [insert condition flavor of the day here.] When we married, I truly thought that sex, while important to me, was not so important that I needed it excessively. He thought it was ok, he guessed. Both of us were wrong. Now, 15 years later, 13 of them without any sexual contact of any kind (including cuddling, etc.), I have just learned that there is this thing which is a sexual orientation that does not want/need or have interest in sex -- at varying degrees, as with sexuality. And I have learned that sex is, in fact, vital to me. I found this group last Sat, the day that the subject finally surfaced in marriage counseling. We did not exactly lie to one another, but we were hugely mistaken in what we said.

The following thoughts are in no special order. Some are in direct comment to a previous post, but all are directed as yet another point of view to be shared with all, so I'm not going to do the quote stuff.

To the asexuals:

1. The "handicap" issue. Folks, the original mention, at least to this sexual, had nothing to do with handicap at all. What I took the post to mean is this: How do you explain music to someone who has never heard sound? How do you explain color to someone who has never seen at all? What is red? (A friend of mine without sight actually asked me that.) How can a sexual explain to an asexual what sex is for us? It's not a question of who is normal and who is not -- it's a question of how do you explain a concept for which the listener has no vocabulary?

Yes, those of us who really, really find the color red beautiful can be sad the the one we love more than any other in the world cannot experience this thing that gives us such pleasure. Not because the lack is a handicap, but because it means we can't share.

In this, we sexuals may have an advantage over you. We all have times when we are not interested in sex. Even those of us with high sex drives. So we can understand how someone might feel repulsed, at least sometimes. It is less of a stretch from that to understanding complete repulsion than it is for you to understand any degree of finding sex highly pleasurable.

2. I contend, although others in on this website disagree with me, that the cultural assumption in which we all grow up and live is for sex to be a part of marriage. The existence of sex in a marriage is taken so for granted that it would not occur to the vast majority of the population that it might not exist, let alone ask about it when they are in courtship. All other aspects are infinitely variable and unique to each couple -- how they have sex, what is or is not taboo, when they have sex, how often they have sex. Most marriages have periods of sexlessness, and most sexuals are aware of that. But it is assumed to be a temporary thing -- or a sign that there is a problem, either with the health of one partner or with the relationship, itself. So, we sexuals are not so much arguing that marriage gives us the "right" to sex as we are that the promise of sex was implicit in the marriage agreement between the partners. The denial of sex is to renege on the promises. Not maliciously, not purposefully. But it still hurts us.

3. Few of us are introspective enough to really analyze ourselves on a deep level, and almost all of us have something hidden from ourselves. In the US, anyway, the culture is such that sex is one of those areas where very little introspection happens, and it is also an area where anything "different" is hidden in a closet. Keep in mind that the tag of "asexual orientation" didn't even come up until the 1980's, and then only in research areas. It still is unheard of in most medical and scientific arenas, and as the mission of this very website attests, it is no more known in general consumption. Is it really so surprising that many sexuals could unknowingly marry an asexual?

4. We -- or at least I -- get it that you how you feel about sex is an immutable part of who you are; you are born with your sexual orientation, it is not a choice. Do you also get that this applies equally to a sexual? That their sexuality is also a part of who they are, and that denying that part of themselves comes at a cost?

In fact, for a sexual, denying sex is downright unhealthy. For me, denying who I was for 15 years led to seriously major depression. Both my husband and I do not want me to ever go down that black hole again. So denying my sexuality is not an option. I denied it because that way, I didn't press him, and I didn't experience the hurt. Now, I'm back to the hurt. What to do?

5. Why is sex so important? Why can't non-sexual things like cuddling and hugging be sufficient? First, because those are sexual - or at least can be. They are part of foreplay, and they usually follow sex. Not all hugs translate into sex; but at least some of them do.

Secondly, because sex is the ultimate cuddle. For me, at least, sex is love made manifest. It is a complete joining; we literally meld into one body. We touch everywhere. And all this intimacy is reserved for the spouse alone. It is where we come together, physically and emotionally, naked, pure and starkly honest. No agendas, no outer world. Just love made manifest. I enjoy the lesser displays of affection, of course. But yes, I feel a lack of the total package. There simply isn't any other way that is so complete.

Thirdly, because for us there is nothing baring the primitive instinct for sex. We can control it, we can manage it. But we cannot ignore it or deny it.

5a. I wonder if this analogy would help explain how hurtful and problematic the asexuality of a sexual's spouse can be. Consider that you have an asexual marriage with someone also asexual. Assume that both of you identify as heterosexual in your approach to romance and relationships. 5 years into the marriage, your spouse suddenly discovers (or realizes, or divulges) that he/she is, in fact, homosexual/lesbian. I.e., is actually romantically oriented away from you.

Doesn't your stomach fall out? Don't you feel a bit panicked? Hurt? Unsure of anything, particularly the validity of what you thought was your marriage to date?

6. Sex is not the main component of a marriage. Marriage has to be emotional, too, or it has too little energy to live. None of us are claiming that sex is the be all and end all of marriage. We're just pointing out that it is, for us, one of the important aspects. We don't want it in place of the romance. We want it in addition to the romance. Not to mention in addition to the companionship, the support, the playing, the growing, the workload ...

To all:

6a. Marriage is and has always been a social/legal/economic behavior. Long before any church declared authority over it, marriage is how property and succession was organized. Legally, what marriage does is to make two unrelated people not only related, but next of kin to one another. For those who ask what difference does a piece of paper make, this is my answer. It's not the paper that matters -- it's the societal privileges and responsibilities the paper represents which are important. One need not be married to love, one need not be married to have sex, and one need not love to be married. To legally define a new family; that takes either marriage or adoption.

7. I have come to believe after years of marriage that marriage is not about compromise, it's about consensus. In a 50/50 situation, no one wins and everyone loses. One of the hardest things adult humans do is to live together long-term. 50/50 won't cut it. It has to be everyone going 100 all the way. So it's not about the asexual compromising on sex sometimes, or the sexual compromising on limited sex. It has to be an arrangement that both can equally support with equal enthusiasm and dedication. Else, it will fail. Even in those marriages where the consensus is that one spouse will make the decision and the other will honor it, the decision is still a consensus, since both parties equally agreed to leave the decision where it is made.

8. The dilemma then, of sexual-asexual consensus is how do you handle two mutually exclusive goals?

9. The definition of "dilemma" is the forced choice between two equally unacceptable options. The only way out of a dilemma is to have more options. When you think of it, 2 is a ridiculous number. Something can be unique. But once there is more than one of something, what makes us think there aren't more, still?

To sexuals:

9. In the past 3 days both my husband and I have been happier together than anytime in the last 13. Acknowledging his asexuality (at least by me) freed me from self-doubt. It's not my fault, I'm still a desirable woman, I have done nothing wrong, I can stop beating myself. By the same token, it's not my husband's fault, either. I don't need to be angry, anymore. He cannot be what he isn't so pressuring him to give me the sex I want is pointless. The release of the pressure from me has made my husband more willing to venture some touches, again, since he can trust that they won't lead into the inevitable request for or argument about sex. The increased touching in turn makes me feel loved.

10. No, this is not yet equilibrium. I'm just saying how much knowing what the situation really is about means we can let go of all the incorrect assumptions and the baggage that goes with them. That alone is an improvement.

Some conclusions:

This is how I am approaching things right now. For reasons I have not gone into and won't (or I'll never stop typing!) my need to explore my sexuality is higher than it has ever been in my life. Quite high, in fact. So chastity is not an option. My husband is asexual (as he's proven over 13 years of no sex whatsoever.) Sex from him is equally not an option. So, we have the following plan of attack:

His task is to determine if he is truly asexual. The first step is to see his doctor. No, I don't think it's a medical or physical illness, but at his age, we can't rule that out. And it's time for him to start thinking about checking his prostate in any event, so he's kinda stuck with going, anyway. I think he is asexual, though I will be pleased if his doc does "solve" our "problem." The second step, though, if the doc can't help is for husband and our marriage counselor to do the deep introspection he has not done anytime before now.

He needs to determine just what does "sex" mean to him. What, specifically, is it he can't bring himself to do? What does he want? What does he need? And what can he do just because it would please me? (I don't think this is a bad exercise for any spouse, regardless of orientation!)

My task is to determine the same things for me. Just what is sex. What do I really need? What do I seriously want? What is a nice-to-have? What is dispensable? I, too, will get help from our marriage counselor.

When we have finished this, then we will know what it is we can or cannot do together. The better we match -- i.e., the more we can do together, the easier it will be for us to satisfy one another.

And for the things where we do not overlap?

Remember that the way out of a dilemma is to find new options. With a life-time struggle with depression, this is something I've learned to do. You take what it is you want/lack. Look at it in other ways until you can reduce the want to its basic kernel. If you want an object, what is it that the object will bring to you? If you want this kind of touch, what is it that the touch gives to you?

That kernel, the payoff of the want is what you really need to receive. How you receive it is less important than that you receive it at all. With that kernel identified, you can now look for other things that will bring the same payoff. And there are your other options.

It is possible that we will not find a solution for all the issues. There are ways we can meet other needs outside the marriage, or with other, drastic, measure. We'll cross that bridge if and when we reach it.

One thing we have already agreed on is that divorce is not an option at all, not for us. We are in so many vital ways perfectly matched, and it took us both a long time to find our match. I cannot envision how I could be happy without him, and he without me.

So, that's our methodology. The answers ... we have a lot of work ahead of us to find them.

I hope this is helpful to all and sundry -- or at least to someone.

[sonofzeal]

{snip}

Excellent post! Thank you very much for that! You have really excellent insight into the issues involved, and express them very well. The one thing I'd say to you is give yourself time for this to really sink in. It took me months to stop associating sex and romance, and while I think the process is worthwhile for everyone, I wouldn't expect it to be quick. Even when you intellectually know something, it takes a long time to associate or dissociate the concepts internally. So, take it slow, and do what you need to right now, but be prepared for the situation to shift as you begin internalizing these new things.

Best of luck. :)

[santanico]

First of all, you have my sympathy. You are in a nasty dilemma. I'm suffering from depression too, so I know what it feels like and how hard this is for you :( But ...

I contend, although others in on this website disagree with me, that the cultural assumption in which we all grow up and live is for sex to be a part of marriage.

Maybe sex is supposed to be part of marriage, but what's the point when you are married with an asexual? Do you think people should only be married when they are capable of having sex? Many people aren't capable for physical reasons like impotence or vaginism. And what about asexual couples, noone would expect them to have sex.

So, we sexuals are not so much arguing that marriage gives us the "right" to sex as we are that the promise of sex was implicit in the marriage agreement between the partners. The denial of sex is to renege on the promises. Not maliciously, not purposefully. But it still hurts us.

How can someone renege a promise without purpose (especially something they technically didn't promise in the first place)? That is an interesting understanding of the term 'renege'. It's absolutely OK to say that you are hurt. But I think it's not fair to say that you are hurt by your partner.

In the US, anyway, the culture is such that sex is one of those areas where very little introspection happens, and it is also an area where anything "different" is hidden in a closet. Keep in mind that the tag of "asexual orientation" didn't even come up until the 1980's, and then only in research areas. It still is unheard of in most medical and scientific arenas, and as the mission of this very website attests, it is no more known in general consumption. Is it really so surprising that many sexuals could unknowingly marry an asexual?

It's surprising to me because where I come from couples usullay have sex before marriage. It even often happens that friends of mine tell me about their sex lifes (BTW therefore I heard more than once about sex-less relationships, where one partner began to refuse sex, so your situation is not unusual at all).

But I understand you now, you are right, this can be completely different in other cultures (so forget what I posted yesterday in the other thread).

5a. I wonder if this analogy would help explain how hurtful and problematic the asexuality of a sexual's spouse can be. Consider that you have an asexual marriage with someone also asexual. Assume that both of you identify as heterosexual in your approach to romance and relationships. 5 years into the marriage, your spouse suddenly discovers (or realizes, or divulges) that he/she is, in fact, homosexual/lesbian. I.e., is actually romantically oriented away from you.

Doesn't your stomach fall out? Don't you feel a bit panicked? Hurt? Unsure of anything, particularly the validity of what you thought was your marriage to date?

Hm, does she still love me when her orientation has changed? If she does - no problem. If she does not - then we would very likely break up. It would be very sad, but that happens all the time, love doesn't always last forever. So I think you situation is different, but maybe just as sad.

[santanico]

sexless sexual, let me add one point: Are you sure your husband is even capable of having sex (at least penetration)? If he doesn't, that would maybe take this feeling from you that you are treated unfair. As for me, I am so asexual, I feel absolutely nothing in a sex situation, and therefore I don't get an erection (but maybe viagra would help me out? ;) ...interesting thought)

[Sally]

sexless sexual, let me add one point: Are you sure your husband is even capable of having sex (at least penetration)? If he doesn't, that would maybe take this feeling from you that you are treated unfair. As for me, I am so asexual, I feel absolutely nothing in a sex situation, and therefore I don't get an erection (but maybe viagra would help me out? ;) ...interesting thought)

No, it wouldn't. It doesn't provide desire, only blood engorgement.

[sexless sexual]

sexless sexual, let me add one point: Are you sure your husband is even capable of having sex (at least penetration)?

Yes, I am sure. He is, in fact, capable of an erection many sexuals would love to experience, at either end of the exchange. We had sex, although infrequently, during courtship, but our circumstances were such that the infrequency could have been lots of things. As I said in that other thread to which you refer, ours was a long-distance relationship further complicated by much business travel. Keep in mind, too, that we were not in the peak years of any man's sexuality -- 40ish. However, we discussed past lovers -- he had more than I, in fact -- we discussed children, we discussed all those things that smart, sane lovers discuss before marriage.

Sometimes, life is just a bitch.

No one needs to defend him to me. Yes, he mislead me (some could say downright lied) but that is just the surface story. The reality is he told me the truth as he understood it then. He was lying to himself, so he could be no more honest to me.

Yes, I feel cheated. Not by him. Just cheated. The gift of the past 3 days is that I can deal simply with the loss of my hopes/dreams, and figure out how to get past the hurt, rather than also carrying the anger, guilt and blame I directed at us both before my enlightenment.

It fuels my hope that we can find, and maintain, equilibrium.

[santanico]

sexless sexual, let me add one point: Are you sure your husband is even capable of having sex (at least penetration)? If he doesn't, that would maybe take this feeling from you that you are treated unfair. As for me, I am so asexual, I feel absolutely nothing in a sex situation, and therefore I don't get an erection (but maybe viagra would help me out? ;) ...interesting thought)

No, it wouldn't. It doesn't provide desire, only blood engorgement.

So you actually mean, it would make me have an erection (?)

We had sex, although infrequently, during courtship, but our circumstances were such that the infrequency could have been lots of things. As I said in that other thread to which you refer, ours was a long-distance relationship further complicated by much business travel. Keep in mind, too, that we were not in the peak years of any man's sexuality -- 40ish. However, we discussed past lovers -- he had more than I, in fact -- we discussed children, we discussed all those things that smart, sane lovers discuss before marriage.

Sometimes, life is just a bitch.

No one needs to defend him to me. Yes, he mislead me (some could say downright lied) but that is just the surface story.

Ah... I think now I understand why you think you have been betrayed and what do you mean with 'marriage is supposed to include having sex'! You think he purposely concealed from you before marriage that he didn't intend to have sex with you. If he did, I actually understand you. Did he admit that? I would have supposed that he didn't know himself when he proposed. Especially when you did have sex during courtship.

Plus: When you have had sex before, I would not be 100% sure that he is asexual. It sounds odd, but sometimes libido fades in a relationship, but would work outside the relationship. As I said before: this is not unusal. In these cases sex therapy may help to increase libido. If you want to know more about this I strongly recommend the book ''The New Male Sexuality' by Bernie Zilbergeld.