For 30-somethings and those around that age

[CompassRose]

Hm... OK... Learning from my own mistakes: never show shocking videos!

Or at least have a more specific warning so we can decide better if they might bother us. :)

[CompassRose]

Okay I'm really starting to hate my hair. Its so fecking Christian! (apologies to christians)

That's totally not my image of Christians. Most of the Christian women I know have long hair, which is probably less fashionable around here.

[CompassRose]

I came on AVEN this morning and clicked on something I'd never noticed before - a list of the top 20 posters for the day. There were 8 regulars from this thread on the list, and together we were responsible for about 30% of the posts.

I downloaded an MSN app for my phone, but I haven't had time to try it out and make an account.

[Lady Girl]

The other incident was maybe 15 years ago, a punk kid tried to grab my purse outside a grocery store and run off. I took hold of the strap before he got it off my shoulder, but this resulted in me being whipped around, tripping backwards, bouncing my head off the concrete, and being dragged a ways down the sidewalk. We both screamed obsenities at one another and commanded each other to let go. No one in the store came out to help, but someone came dashing across the parking lot shouting at him and the kid finally let go and ran off.

Something similar happened to me in Liverpool a few years ago. I was in a park in the city centre, sitting and minding my own business, I think I was reading something, when I was approached by six young men asking if I had money, or a mobile phone, or cigarettes. When I said no, they grabbed me, dragged me off the bench, threw me to the concrete floor and started to kick and punch me, all six of them.

The last thing I saw before I got kicked in the head and blacked out was everyone else within 300 yards walking very quickly in the opposite direction, rather than trying to help. Ever since then, I've had very little faith in the British people...

Deal this is WAAAAAY worse than what happened to me. It's awful! I hope you healed from this horrifying experience.

[Lady Girl]

I came on AVEN this morning and clicked on something I'd never noticed before - a list of the top 20 posters for the day. There were 8 regulars from this thread on the list, and together we were responsible for about 30% of the posts.

I downloaded an MSN app for my phone, but I haven't had time to try it out and make an account.

I need to find this....

I try to be a Christian (they will know us by our love) and my hair is long. And certainly not offended...there are bad people claiming to be Christian. That's why I say I try, I prefer not to claim to be one.

[CompassRose]

Never fear my dears, Dex is okay, he's just taking a little break from the mayhem :)

His only problem will be to read about... how many pages? :) 5? 6? :)

At a minimum!

[CompassRose]

I came on AVEN this morning and clicked on something I'd never noticed before - a list of the top 20 posters for the day. There were 8 regulars from this thread on the list, and together we were responsible for about 30% of the posts.

I downloaded an MSN app for my phone, but I haven't had time to try it out and make an account.

I need to find this....

I try to be a Christian (they will know us by our love) and my hair is long. And certainly not offended...there are bad people claiming to be Christian. That's why I say I try, I prefer not to claim to be one.

Deal, you don't have to take responsibility for anyone else' actions. Believe whatever you choose. :)

I'm not a Christian, but I believe in love, and I have seen the positive power of Christian faith in the lives of my sister and brother-in-law and their children. :)

I'd go to the app store and search for MSN, see what comes up. There's bound to be at least one useful free app for that.

[Guest]

deàlradh, what an awful story! I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yikes! Lady... same to you! "Dragged on concrete" is something I'm glad isn't in my anecdote list. You guys are champs for handling it.

So, you guys want a little case study for today? We have a client right now for whom we're trying to enforce parenting time. We'll call him father. His ex... we'll call her mother... has been refusing to let him see his daughter. Mom thinks that daughter was sexually assaulted while at dad's house by dad's nephews (child's older cousins). The boys are 13, the daughter is 10. Mom brought daughter to a clinic we have here in Portland that does sexual assault check-ups on children. They have a team of social workers, psychologists, and doctors... you bring your kid in and first the parent is interviewed. Then the child is interviewed. Then the child gets a medical exam and they're done. A report is generated to determine what, if anything, happened to the kiddo. In this case, daughter said that her cousins were touching her "down there" on several occasions.. Dad thinks daughter is lying and that it's actually mom's stepson who is molesting daughter... he thinks this because he had a talk with daughter and she agreed with him that it was her stepbrother. Meanwhile, when dad does have custody of daughter and they all go out with his stepsons, he'll say things like "oh we can't go there because **** can't go" and essentially blaming daughter for ruining their good times and freedom. He is also focused on mom, who he says is just trying to punish him, and that mom was

The thing is, HE is our client. What do we do? What do you guys think of the situation?

Our impressions, after meeting with everyone and reading everything, is that dad is sticking his head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge what happened because he doesn't want to be blamed for it. The boys may have just been being kids... kids sometimes experiment and touch each other... the problem is, no one is telling these boys that you can't touch other people! In all of this, the boys who actually did the touching are being completely ignored. Obviously they need to be told about good touches, bad touches, personal space, privacy, etc. And since dad is completely ignoring the problem, we're trying to hold off on reinstating his parenting time until we can impress upon him the importance of proper supervision.

[Guest]

Sweetex: Drastic haircuts are hard to deal with. I feel for ya! I prefer my hair to be in that awkward space between jawline and shoulder. If it touches my shoulder it is toooo long... if it doesn't fall below my jawline its too short. Wait, hang on, I bet I have a pic somewheres...

Yours is, I assume, longer than that?

[Midnight Lady]

Sweetex: Drastic haircuts are hard to deal with. I feel for ya! I prefer my hair to be in that awkward space between jawline and shoulder. If it touches my shoulder it is toooo long... if it doesn't fall below my jawline its too short. Wait, hang on, I bet I have a pic somewheres...

Yours is, I assume, longer than that?

I guess my hair would drive you crazy, Skull. :) It goes to the middle of my... hm... bottom part. :)

[Midnight Lady]

I downloaded an MSN app for my phone, but I haven't had time to try it out and make an account.

Way to go!

Also, Dex will have to read already at least 7-8 pages... :) AND! this time even without long-long quotations!!! :D

[Midnight Lady]

OK... yesterday night fever... today morning fever... Missed classes... F*, I hate when my body DEMANDS a rest instead of just gently hinting... Going to stay in bed the whole day... can't miss tomorrow classes (couldn't miss today's either, but unfortunately, I had to...)...

[Guest]

Sweetex: Drastic haircuts are hard to deal with. I feel for ya! I prefer my hair to be in that awkward space between jawline and shoulder. If it touches my shoulder it is toooo long... if it doesn't fall below my jawline its too short. Wait, hang on, I bet I have a pic somewheres...

Yours is, I assume, longer than that?

I guess my hair would drive you crazy, Skull. :) It goes to the middle of my... hm... bottom part. :)

My boss's sister's hair is like that! She came in with her jacket on and her hair was tucked in behind the jacket and hung down out of the bottom! I've always wanted long hair, but I just can't. My hair is waaaay too thick. It looks like crazy cat lady hair when its long.

[Midnight Lady]

Have just checked the email. Thanks, Heaven, one of the 2 teachers for today is also sick! It is bad to be glad about someone's sickness, but at least I won't miss her class (Symbolic logic)!

[Midnight Lady]

@ Lady So, tell us about your feelings about your quitting smoking. :) Have you found more positives?

[Midnight Lady]

My boss's sister's hair is like that! She came in with her jacket on and her hair was tucked in behind the jacket and hung down out of the bottom! I've always wanted long hair, but I just can't. My hair is waaaay too thick. It looks like crazy cat lady hair when its long.

I saw a girl at our college with hair going to the middle of her knees... and she was pretty tall...

[Guest]

My boss's sister's hair is like that! She came in with her jacket on and her hair was tucked in behind the jacket and hung down out of the bottom! I've always wanted long hair, but I just can't. My hair is waaaay too thick. It looks like crazy cat lady hair when its long.

I saw a girl at our college with hair going to the middle of her knees... and she was pretty tall...

I can't imagine how heavy that must be on the scalp.

So, Midnight, you know psychology... did you read my client story? How can we get him to recognize that he needs to re-adjust his attitude regarding his daughter and his role as caretaker? We like the guy... he means well and he's never hurt his kids... he just doesn't seem to get it, you know?

[CompassRose]

deàlradh, what an awful story! I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yikes! Lady... same to you! "Dragged on concrete" is something I'm glad isn't in my anecdote list. You guys are champs for handling it.

So, you guys want a little case study for today? We have a client right now for whom we're trying to enforce parenting time. We'll call him father. His ex... we'll call her mother... has been refusing to let him see his daughter. Mom thinks that daughter was sexually assaulted while at dad's house by dad's nephews (child's older cousins). The boys are 13, the daughter is 10. Mom brought daughter to a clinic we have here in Portland that does sexual assault check-ups on children. They have a team of social workers, psychologists, and doctors... you bring your kid in and first the parent is interviewed. Then the child is interviewed. Then the child gets a medical exam and they're done. A report is generated to determine what, if anything, happened to the kiddo. In this case, daughter said that her cousins were touching her "down there" on several occasions.. Dad thinks daughter is lying and that it's actually mom's stepson who is molesting daughter... he thinks this because he had a talk with daughter and she agreed with him that it was her stepbrother. Meanwhile, when dad does have custody of daughter and they all go out with his stepsons, he'll say things like "oh we can't go there because **** can't go" and essentially blaming daughter for ruining their good times and freedom. He is also focused on mom, who he says is just trying to punish him, and that mom was

The thing is, HE is our client. What do we do? What do you guys think of the situation?

Our impressions, after meeting with everyone and reading everything, is that dad is sticking his head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge what happened because he doesn't want to be blamed for it. The boys may have just been being kids... kids sometimes experiment and touch each other... the problem is, no one is telling these boys that you can't touch other people! In all of this, the boys who actually did the touching are being completely ignored. Obviously they need to be told about good touches, bad touches, personal space, privacy, etc. And since dad is completely ignoring the problem, we're trying to hold off on reinstating his parenting time until we can impress upon him the importance of proper supervision.

What a story! Yech! It sound like Dad is currying favor with the stepsons at the expense of his daughter, that he's totally stuck in the "child as pawn" paradigm, and he doesn't know how to be an adult and stand up for his daughter. I would be really skeptical of what the daughter told him, since kids can sense what we want to hear, and he's not a trained interviewer so could very well have been leading her to tell him what he wanted to hear. At least Mom is doing something to protect the girl. Does the child have an advocate of her own with the courts? Is there a possibility of getting some kind of parenting class or family therapy ordered for the Dad? How about a court-ordered smack in the face, accompanied by "Grow up! You aren't the victim here! Take care of your daughter!" (repeated as needed) I don't think father and daughter should be permanently separated, but he really needs to step up here and be a grown-up. So yeah, I hope your strategy works out.

[CompassRose]

OK... yesterday night fever... today morning fever... Missed classes... F*, I hate when my body DEMANDS a rest instead of just gently hinting... Going to stay in bed the whole day... can't miss tomorrow classes (couldn't miss today's either, but unfortunately, I had to...)...

I'm sorry you're not feeling well. Drink lots of water and get lots of rest. Feel better quickly!

[CompassRose]

Sweetex: Drastic haircuts are hard to deal with. I feel for ya! I prefer my hair to be in that awkward space between jawline and shoulder. If it touches my shoulder it is toooo long... if it doesn't fall below my jawline its too short. Wait, hang on, I bet I have a pic somewheres...

Yours is, I assume, longer than that?

I guess my hair would drive you crazy, Skull. :) It goes to the middle of my... hm... bottom part. :)

My boss's sister's hair is like that! She came in with her jacket on and her hair was tucked in behind the jacket and hung down out of the bottom! I've always wanted long hair, but I just can't. My hair is waaaay too thick. It looks like crazy cat lady hair when its long.

Odd, all the crazy cat ladies I know have short hair...

Did you switch pictures after you posted that? I could have sworn you were looking the other way at first.

[Guest]

Sweetex: Drastic haircuts are hard to deal with. I feel for ya! I prefer my hair to be in that awkward space between jawline and shoulder. If it touches my shoulder it is toooo long... if it doesn't fall below my jawline its too short. Wait, hang on, I bet I have a pic somewheres...

Yours is, I assume, longer than that?

I guess my hair would drive you crazy, Skull. :) It goes to the middle of my... hm... bottom part. :)

My boss's sister's hair is like that! She came in with her jacket on and her hair was tucked in behind the jacket and hung down out of the bottom! I've always wanted long hair, but I just can't. My hair is waaaay too thick. It looks like crazy cat lady hair when its long.

Odd, all the crazy cat ladies I know have short hair...

Did you switch pictures after you posted that? I could have sworn you were looking the other way at first.

lol yes, I decided the second one showed my haircut better :D

And you're right... I was thinking specifically of The Simpsons crazy cat lady, but in real life they DO always have short hair. Weird.

[Midnight Lady]

So, Midnight, you know psychology... did you read my client story? How can we get him to recognize that he needs to re-adjust his attitude regarding his daughter and his role as caretaker? We like the guy... he means well and he's never hurt his kids... he just doesn't seem to get it, you know?

Hm... I am really flattered by your words, Skull. But I can't say that I know psychology at all. I mean, even technically, since I have finished just 2 years of psyc BA (sure, I have had quite a few trainings for the volunteer projects I was involved with, but since they are oriented towards everyone who wants to give, they are not necessarily that scientific). But even after MA or PhD, I don't think people can KNOW psychology. What they have is the great experience with many people and stories. But then the thing is that to determine whether they are good specialists or not, their clients should see what exactly conclusions and knowledge those specialists took out of all those multiple cases, if you know what I mean.

Therefore, for this case, I can speak just from my understanding of it (of course, with some background, since I had my summer practicum with the family agency who is responsible for alike cases. They refer to social workers and vice verse. There were so many terrible stories at that agency. I was just terrified at times: how can parents do something like this to their children and each other? Therefore, I doubt I would be able to work in family therapy, especially with law cases. It is just horrific. I want rather to work with teenagers).

I will hide it, since it is long.

First of all, it reminded me of cases with child molestation we looked at during the classes in the 70s? or 60s? Whatever time frame, when the States courts were flooded with those files. How we looked at them in the classes was through the works of Loftus and other psychologists who specialize in eye-witnessing and false memories. With those kids, what they showed, was that:

Kids could be afraid of the adults (psychologists, social workers, judges) who asked them leading questions (eg. "Did your father touch you there?" etc). It was easier for kids to say "Yes" to many of those questions (since another research showed that kids have a tendency to agree with adults even when hey disagree). Therefore, it confuses me from the beginning: the girl seems to say "yes" about cousins and about stepbrother to her mom and to her dad. So, what was the conclusion? who touched her if someone did?

Another moment:

Were the cousins and stepbrother asked if they did it or not? did the psychologist talk to them? evaluate them?

How about mom's and dad's parenting style? were they evaluated as parents and guardians? I mean does he just say "No, I never talked to kids about it!" or did he talk? and the mother as well.

Why did she bring the child to the clinic anyway? If it was a touch, not physical damage - you know what I mean? What was the need for doing that? And did she bring the child to the clinic right away or did it happen only some time later? Honestly, from what you've said, I can't help seeing the mother IS manipulative herself.

Sorry that instead of giving answers I just asked much more questions! But it is just my style... I am very careful with giving opinions or advising, even in public forums... :redface: You might have noticed that... When someone posts a problem/question, lots of members start giving advice right away (eg. "Leave him, stay with him, beat him up!" whatever). But deep inside I can't help remembering what we learn in our classes. And it IS the fact that people when ask those questions shouldn't get advise, due to several factors:

1. They already know the answer;

2. They tell the story only from their point of view which can be absolutely false (to impress others, to seek for pity, or just because they see the situation that way);

3. They may follow that advice, and if it turns out to be wrong, they will blame you - not themselves.

Not your case, of course! But it is a habit now... before saying anything, ask for as many questions as possible...

However, for parents there are always special parenting courses (at least, there are in the agency I worked with and across Canada as well). So, they teach parents some useful skills. And what is more important, they are useful for everyone, not only for those people who happened to have problems with the Law.

[Guest]

What a story! Yech! It sound like Dad is currying favor with the stepsons at the expense of his daughter, that he's totally stuck in the "child as pawn" paradigm, and he doesn't know how to be an adult and stand up for his daughter. I would be really skeptical of what the daughter told him, since kids can sense what we want to hear, and he's not a trained interviewer so could very well have been leading her to tell him what he wanted to hear. At least Mom is doing something to protect the girl. Does the child have an advocate of her own with the courts? Is there a possibility of getting some kind of parenting class or family therapy ordered for the Dad? How about a court-ordered smack in the face, accompanied by "Grow up! You aren't the victim here! Take care of your daughter!" (repeated as needed) I don't think father and daughter should be permanently separated, but he really needs to step up here and be a grown-up. So yeah, I hope your strategy works out.

1. I didn't even think of it that way, but yes, it does sound like he's sucking up to the boys at the expense of the daughter.

2. None of us believe what the daughter told him. My boss talked to him and explained that she was probably scared of him so she told him what he wanted to hear.

3. Tell me more about "child as pawn" paradigm. I've never heard that specifically, but my ex worked for Child Protective Services and she always talked about what she called "black sheep syndrome", where in a dysfunctional family one child was picked as the scapegoat for everything. Is it sort of like that?

4. A court-ordered smack in the face... see, if SHE was our client we'd do that in a heartbeat. And we still could... we know what a judge would say if we took it to court, so that's definitely an option... let him bring an enforcement suit knowing full well the court will impose restrictions. Ideally we'd like to see him pull his head out of his ass and start taking care of his kids. Like I said, he really is a nice guy but he just can't accept this situation for what it is.

[Guest]

the girl seems to say "yes" about cousins and about stepbrother to her mom and to her dad. So, what was the conclusion? who touched her if someone did?

Another moment:

Were the cousins and stepbrother asked if they did it or not? did the psychologist talk to them? evaluate them?

How about mom's and dad's parenting style? were they evaluated as parents and guardians? I mean does he just say "No, I never talked to kids about it!" or did he talk? and the mother as well.

Why did she bring the child to the clinic anyway? If it was a touch, not physical damage - you know what I mean? What was the need for doing that? And did she bring the child to the clinic right away or did it happen only some time later? Honestly, from what you've said, I can't help seeing the mother IS manipulative herself.

1. It seems like it was the cousins, not the brother. But no one knows. In her interviews with the psychologists she very clearly stated it was the boys and she talked about it with sufficient detail that they believed she was telling the truth. I've seen CARES reports before where they've said, point blank, this kid is being coached by a parent... or in a recent case I had, they said the kid wasn't actually molested and was just pulling stuff out of magazines and porn she saw. In this case, the report stated that she was actually touched by the cousins. That doesn't make it true, but its the best evidence we have.

2. No one has talked to the boys! Can you believe that? I think that's ludicrous too.

3. The mother IS manipulative and hates the father. The mother was also molested as a kid and dad says it makes her hypervigilant to the point where she freaks out all the time over nothing. She no doubt brought the kid in because he wanted it on record because of the divorce/ parenting time issue.

(I have a BA in psych too... but have no actual experience putting it to practice, and I can tell that you know a shit-ton more than I do about it! I have a kindergarten level knowledge compared to you!)

[Midnight Lady]

1. It seems like it was the cousins, not the brother. But no one knows. In her interviews with the psychologists she very clearly stated it was the boys and she talked about it with sufficient detail that they believed she was telling the truth. I've seen CARES reports before where they've said, point blank, this kid is being coached by a parent... or in a recent case I had, they said the kid wasn't actually molested and was just pulling stuff out of magazines and porn she saw. In this case, the report stated that she was actually touched by the cousins. That doesn't make it true, but its the best evidence we have.

2. No one has talked to the boys! Can you believe that? I think that's ludicrous too.

3. The mother IS manipulative and hates the father. The mother was also molested as a kid and dad says it makes her hypervigilant to the point where she freaks out all the time over nothing. She no doubt brought the kid in because he wanted it on record because of the divorce/ parenting time issue.

(I have a BA in psych too... but have no actual experience putting it to practice, and I can tell that you know a shit-ton more than I do about it! I have a kindergarten level knowledge compared to you!)

Oh, thanks, Skull, you are so sweet...

Hm... the missing point about the boys is weird... really... Also, I am not sure how the States system works. Not to say that I am sure about the Canadian one, but at least, after that summer I got the impression that even if it is just a lie, social workers will start keeping their eyes on the family.

As for the kids' stuff, it reminded me of our childhood (in the post soviet union, where, as everyone knows, there was NO sex - a very famous phrase from one of the ministers... :) Though, it was a phrase out of context, because she actually said "There is no sex in the Soviet Union ON TV"... :D ). The kids from the neighbourhood liked to go the basements and show each other... hm... you know what... This was considered to be a game called "jelly-fish". Don't ask me why they called it like this, I never played it. Though once 2 girls tried to invite me to play "the game", but even as a kid I was very suspicious, so, I didn't like their nasty facial expressions, and without knowing what it was about, I just said "No, I don't want to play that game anyway".

So, it is quite natural for kids (unfortunately, really...). Now the question is "what about the girl herself?" Does she have supervised visits with her father or unsupervised? If they are supervised, what does a social worker say about her behaviour around her father? or her father around her? (it was one of my duties - to be a supervisor in one of such groups. No molestation, thank God! Just regular abuse and addition problems and aggressive behaviours... Oh, Jeeze... Did I say "just regular" ??? Those things are terrible to see, they can poison a person, because really, after looking at those stories, I don't even want to think about having kids...). If it is unsupervised, what check-ups takes place? Does anyone talk to her?

Hm... more questions... :redface: Feel free not to answer, because I understand, that it might be a confidentiality issue, since it IS a public forum...

[Guest]

No confidentiality issues unless I disclose identifying information like DOB, name, SS#, etc. So no worries!

Visits are unsupervised. My guess is that he'd get a order for supervised visits if we were to take it before a judge. That's why we're trying to work with him to figure this out... but we're not therapists and we're getting to that point where its going to be over our heads. There is a surprising amount of "counseling" that we do, though. I had to sit with a dad for over an hour one day and explain to him that kids going thru divorces are angry and he can't punish them just for being angry... blahblah. Off topic, sorry!

I agree with you about it being natural for kids to play show and tell with their bodies. Almost all kids have some sort of similar experience... I know I do. If someone were to have just talked to all the kids and said "I understand you're exploring your bodies, but everyone's body is their own special private place, and you can't touch them." or whatever you're supposed to say (I don't know!). But none of that happened. The boys were never talked to, the girl was shamed, brought to the doctor, and now the dad doesn't get to see her. The whole thing is just overblown.

Regular abuse... I know what you're saying! It's sad but true, at this point sexual abuse is such a big deal and finally getting dug out from under all the rocks its been hiding under that "regular abuse" is taking a backseat. There are limited resources. The worst cases get the most attention.

[Midnight Lady]

No confidentiality issues unless I disclose identifying information like DOB, name, SS#, etc. So no worries!

Visits are unsupervised. My guess is that he'd get a order for supervised visits if we were to take it before a judge. That's why we're trying to work with him to figure this out... but we're not therapists and we're getting to that point where its going to be over our heads. There is a surprising amount of "counseling" that we do, though. I had to sit with a dad for over an hour one day and explain to him that kids going thru divorces are angry and he can't punish them just for being angry... blahblah. Off topic, sorry!

I agree with you about it being natural for kids to play show and tell with their bodies. Almost all kids have some sort of similar experience... I know I do. If someone were to have just talked to all the kids and said "I understand you're exploring your bodies, but everyone's body is their own special private place, and you can't touch them." or whatever you're supposed to say (I don't know!). But none of that happened. The boys were never talked to, the girl was shamed, brought to the doctor, and now the dad doesn't get to see her. The whole thing is just overblown.

Regular abuse... I know what you're saying! It's sad but true, at this point sexual abuse is such a big deal and finally getting dug out from under all the rocks its been hiding under that "regular abuse" is taking a backseat. There are limited resources. The worst cases get the most attention.

OK, so, if he shows his will to attend special courses for parents and to go through the counselling, my guess is that it might be beneficial for him and for the case. Even if it goes to the court. But of course, till the next alarm. Then, in Canada, he wouldn't be allowed to have unsupervised visits for a long-long time (if the recess happened). Supervised visits are not bad, after all. I saw families, who would get unsupervised ones within 6 months or so. It was so warming! Those parents were progressing in front of my eyes and the other facilitator's eyes! (of course, another question, if it was the same after it turned into unsupervised. But as I said, in Canada, social workers are really like hawks. They will keep their eyes on the family for quite a while).

Those games things... Hm... I wish there was a universal answer! (in the North American style: one size fits all). How do we teach kids to be morally, emotionally, psychologically, developmentally fitted (hm... doesn't seem to be the right word...)? Sex education and other moral education at schools is for sure not an answer (though of course, it might be a tiny step towards it).

The kid I volunteered with told me about those lessons... Hm... the only thing she remembered from them was how everybody giggled and how embarrassing it was for her. Adults sometimes forget to listen to the kids. And here, in Canada, it looks like that many parents don't want to be responsible for any kind of education - they prefer schools to do the whole job. And when bullying, molesting, whatever happens, they start blaming the teachers (is it the same in the States?).

This tendency to look for a scapegoat always pisses me off! My doctrine is: "Everyone is to be blamed!". Teachers and parents should share the responsibility for sex and other kinds of information. Maybe, this dad and mom didn't talk to their kids about touching and stuff because they truly believed that it was teachers' duties (then yeah, special parenting courses will be good for both of them)? But it comes from the societal pressure on teachers. To me, it looks like teachers are responsible for EVERYTHING what happens to kids here. Honestly, I am glad I am not a teacher here (though I miss my students from Russia, teaching is great).

Hm, this looks like "red herring" to me. :) But yeah, after getting all this information and answers, it does look like counseling and parenting courses might be good for him (I would for sure said for the mother too). It will help you see if he is really ready for anything (and open for discussions and for a change) to see his child again or if he is just looking for easy ways (there were parents in the agency which would absolutely resist to doing anything about their child. They will skip courses, visits to the counsellor, and even the supervised visits themselves. It was quite a sign-telling, do you think?). Of course, if there is something like this is the city you are from.

And of course, the law people involved should also see the girl's reaction and behaviour. In our group, sometimes, those kids would cry when it was the time to end the meeting. They would hold to their parent supervised and repeat "I don't want to go!". That was also something touchy... I would even cry sometimes after such visits myself... That's why I say that I doubt I would ever be able to work with Law cases involving families.

[CompassRose]

What a story! Yech! It sound like Dad is currying favor with the stepsons at the expense of his daughter, that he's totally stuck in the "child as pawn" paradigm, and he doesn't know how to be an adult and stand up for his daughter. I would be really skeptical of what the daughter told him, since kids can sense what we want to hear, and he's not a trained interviewer so could very well have been leading her to tell him what he wanted to hear. At least Mom is doing something to protect the girl. Does the child have an advocate of her own with the courts? Is there a possibility of getting some kind of parenting class or family therapy ordered for the Dad? How about a court-ordered smack in the face, accompanied by "Grow up! You aren't the victim here! Take care of your daughter!" (repeated as needed) I don't think father and daughter should be permanently separated, but he really needs to step up here and be a grown-up. So yeah, I hope your strategy works out.

1. I didn't even think of it that way, but yes, it does sound like he's sucking up to the boys at the expense of the daughter.

2. None of us believe what the daughter told him. My boss talked to him and explained that she was probably scared of him so she told him what he wanted to hear.

3. Tell me more about "child as pawn" paradigm. I've never heard that specifically, but my ex worked for Child Protective Services and she always talked about what she called "black sheep syndrome", where in a dysfunctional family one child was picked as the scapegoat for everything. Is it sort of like that?

4. A court-ordered smack in the face... see, if SHE was our client we'd do that in a heartbeat. And we still could... we know what a judge would say if we took it to court, so that's definitely an option... let him bring an enforcement suit knowing full well the court will impose restrictions. Ideally we'd like to see him pull his head out of his ass and start taking care of his kids. Like I said, he really is a nice guy but he just can't accept this situation for what it is.

Please bear in mind that I'm talking out of my a**, based on no actual training beyond a dysfunctional childhood, some 12 step program, some reading, and the experiences of friends.

But what I mean when I say "child as pawn" paradigm is the way a couple will continue to fight after their divorce through using the kids as proxies. It's like they haven't expressed their anger enough, haven't totally annihilated their ex, so keep fighting through the children.

If Mom is manipulative, so much the worse. How many children are there? Is this poor girl the only one?

I get the impression that Dad lives with the stepsons, and only sees his daughter for visits. That could contribute to him wanting to keep peace with the people who have more influence on the peace of his home and his relationship with his new wife by sucking up to the stepsons.

Having been abused could make a person hypervigilant, sure, but it could also be an appropriate response. The report of the agency does back Mom up. What's the story with the cousin's parents? Is there any way to get them involved? These boys need to be spoken to. Seriously.

[Guest]

And here, in Canada, it looks like that many parents don't want to be responsible for any kind of education - they prefer schools to do the whole job. And when bullying, molesting, whatever happens, they start blaming the teachers (is it the same in the States?).

It definitely is. And having a family of teachers makes me very sympathetic to them. A teacher comes into class and gets at most a few hours with the kids... all the kids... and must somehow grow them into great adults. how on earth are they going to do that? With, what, the 15 minutes a day they *maybe* have one-on-one with the kid? If the parents don't value school, the kids aren't going to value school. Then the parents come in and bitch, and it's like... well maybe you shouldn't have spent the last 12 years telling your kid that school is bullshit and teachers are assholes! Because now that kid isn't going to listen to a goddamn thing the teacher says. Sure, teachers can reach out and take a kiddo under their wing, but they can't do that with every kid in every class.

Sigh. I'm getting all worked up!

[Guest]

Please bear in mind that I'm talking out of my a**, based on no actual training beyond a dysfunctional childhood, some 12 step program, some reading, and the experiences of friends.

But what I mean when I say "child as pawn" paradigm is the way a couple will continue to fight after their divorce through using the kids as proxies. It's like they haven't expressed their anger enough, haven't totally annihilated their ex, so keep fighting through the children.

If Mom is manipulative, so much the worse. How many children are there? Is this poor girl the only one?

I get the impression that Dad lives with the stepsons, and only sees his daughter for visits. That could contribute to him wanting to keep peace with the people who have more influence on the peace of his home and his relationship with his new wife by sucking up to the stepsons.

Having been abused could make a person hypervigilant, sure, but it could also be an appropriate response. The report of the agency does back Mom up. What's the story with the cousin's parents? Is there any way to get them involved? These boys need to be spoken to. Seriously.

Lol... experience is worth its weight in gold with me!

I actually know nothing about the cousins' parents... something to look into.