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Asexual Flag: And the winner is.....


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#61 bristrek

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:10 PM

I wish I could knit or do crafty stuff like that and thus make my own ace stuff. Alas, I can't.


Glad to see others are doing it though! I demand photos :)

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#62 corduroyjackalope

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:16 PM

I wish I could knit or do crafty stuff like that and thus make my own ace stuff. Alas, I can't.


Glad to see others are doing it though! I demand photos :)

If only I knew how to do photos :(
Corduroy is cool!

#63 you*hear*but*do*you*listen

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 02:01 AM


Here are some hue changes I made in photoshop:

Posted Image


I like this one the best (the first one). I felt like the others were too dark/blue. The third one was alright too.

I agree, this is my favorite...even though I am biased towards bluish purples.

Also I AM TOTALLY KNITTING AN ASEXUAL SCARF.
I am a proud soldier in the MCRmy.
I brought my bullets and took their love.
I gave three cheers for sweet revenge.
I marched faithfully in the black parade.
I am not afraid to keep on living,
and they'll never take me alive.

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Posted Image

#64 corduroyjackalope

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:52 AM

I want to try to do shoe laces. Maybe get white ones and use thread to do the flag. It would take a while, but it would be worth it.
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#65 X Phoenix X

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:13 AM

Bumper stickers. Who's making them? I'm pumped about this flag. I want this on my car right now! Thanks for doing this. I voted in an early pole, but I am pleased with this result because I like what it represents. The colors remind me of AVEN, but the over-all design isn't exclusively AVEN which is nice because not all asexuals associate themselves with the AVEN community (we should remember that). :)
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#66 Pilot

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:04 AM

Just to head this off at the pass, asexuality is definitely nothing new to me, AVEN just ain't my kinda scene. Don't know anyone else who's registered here, in fact - I just did it for the voting (although apparently a few days too late). Nothing personal, this place just isn't the right fit for a lot of people. Props to Phoenix and everyone else who keeps that in mind!

Anyway, A1 wasn't the flag I was rooting for by a long shot (I will mourn C2 forever), but I'm still cool with it. I'm even gonna give making a patch for my jacket a go if someone doesn't start selling better ones first. If nothing else, it's nice how this design is easily identifiable with the other orientations' flags, you know? Helps with visibility.

I heard what the colors are supposed to represent mentioned elsewhere, though, and was pretty taken aback. Okay, so the black is asexuality, the gray is demisexuality/gray-a, the purple is community, but the white is... sexuality? ...what? Why? Nobody I know can make sense of it either, so could someone here maybe offer some insight? I mean, I don't see the gay pride flag having a stripe representing straight people, and rightly so. Even if sexuals offered us nothing but unwavering support and understanding (ahahahaha) it'd still be more than acceptable and understandable for there to be just one thing that was exclusively for the 1%~ of the population that's only recently begun to grow in visibility as ace. Essentially everything about how society has been structured throughout history, as well as (very notably) the media it's produced, has been geared towards or pertaining to sexuals. If anyone has been looking for the straight pride parade, it's on all the other streets of every single city, every single day. Just this one thing is supposed to be for us. So what's up?

While I'm probably the first person to bring this concern up here, I know I'm definitely not the only one who's found the revelation really weirdly inappropriate. Nonetheless, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it strikes me as "servile", as one of my friends put it, because, well... it honestly does sort of smack of that, so I figure this must just be some sort of bizarre misunderstanding, right? What was the actual intent here?

Whatever it may be, if this point being brought up has opened anyone else up to the potential unfortunate implications of the stripes' currently ascribed meanings, I think we should seriously consider redefining them while the paint's still fresh, so to speak. I personally would suggest a very slight alteration to black = asexuality, gray = gray-a, white = demisexuality, and purple = community. Anyone else have some ideas?

#67 Nakauri

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:28 AM

I heard what the colors are supposed to represent mentioned elsewhere, though, and was pretty taken aback. Okay, so the black is asexuality, the gray is demisexuality/gray-a, the purple is community, but the white is... sexuality? ...what? Why? Nobody I know can make sense of it either, so could someone here maybe offer some insight? I mean, I don't see the gay pride flag having a stripe representing straight people, and rightly so. Even if sexuals offered us nothing but unwavering support and understanding (ahahahaha) it'd still be more than acceptable and understandable for there to be just one thing that was exclusively for the 1%~ of the population that's only recently begun to grow in visibility as ace. Essentially everything about how society has been structured throughout history, as well as (very notably) the media it's produced, has been geared towards or pertaining to sexuals. If anyone has been looking for the straight pride parade, it's on all the other streets of every single city, every single day. Just this one thing is supposed to be for us. So what's up?

While I'm probably the first person to bring this concern up here, I know I'm definitely not the only one who's found the revelation really weirdly inappropriate. Nonetheless, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it strikes me as "servile", as one of my friends put it, because, well... it honestly does sort of smack of that, so I figure this must just be some sort of bizarre misunderstanding, right? What was the actual intent here?

Whatever it may be, if this point being brought up has opened anyone else up to the potential unfortunate implications of the stripes' currently ascribed meanings, I think we should seriously consider redefining them while the paint's still fresh, so to speak. I personally would suggest a very slight alteration to black = asexuality, gray = gray-a, white = demisexuality, and purple = community. Anyone else have some ideas?


This is an interesting post. I didn't read the description very well, I suppose, as the juxtaposition never popped out at me once. I think your retranslation to asexuality/gray-a/demi/community to be pretty fair. Personally, I've never understood demisexuality, view it as its own sexuality, and therefore still in the realm of including sexuality in general (but maybe it was just my lack of interest in finding a more fitted description of what demisexuality is). However, to those that find "sexuality" being included as offensive, I'd say that's a pretty decent alternative.

Now, on the grounds of defining why it would be "sexuality", I can't say what the original intentions were. What I can do, though, is give my own personal insight as to why it could be this way. With that in mind, I considered the ramifications of including a stripe to mention "community." In this way, we acknowledge that the nurture and environment around us greatly impacts who we are -- and in the terms of asexuality, the community is going to impact who we are as a group quite a lot. I'd even go to say that we're impacted by sexuals more than gays are impacted by straights (your comparison), and therefore warrants its acknowledgment in our development, our trials and our future thus.

To elaborate, your example of gays not acknowledging straights in their flag for a good reason is, of course, true. I'm not saying that straight people dont affect and didn't affect gays or the gay development, but that initially straights persecuted the gays for not being straight. In comparison, asexuality has all the walls gays did with straights, but with /everybody./ There can be a bridge between gays and straights, as they both can understand the realm of sexuality. The only wall is with gender. Between asexuals and sexuals, the wall is between sexuality and gender. In this way, homosexuality was barred for being genderly inaccurate, whereby now asexuality is barred for -- and this is kind of hard for me to explain, so thanks for baring so far -- in essence, not existing. By acknowledging this on our flag, we're metaphorically tearing down the wall that we don't exist, and pushing it one step further by including the bar under it as community. Therefore, not only do we exist, but we exist in unison and harmony within a global community.

Sorry, I'm not sure I wrote that properly to make any sense. I gave it a whirl though.
Alternatively I'm sure it's perfectly fine for people to have their own meanings behind the choices. White for purity, white for innocence, etc etc.

#68 folkieljc

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:54 AM

The triangle is from the Kinsey Scale (Kinsey was a scientist who did surveys about sexual attraction. His scale had heterosexual at one end, homosexual at the other, bisexual in the middle, and rated people he did surveys on as somewhere on the scale between 0 and 6. When 1 in 100 people said they didn't experience sexual attraction, he made an outside group called X. The triangle is basically the Kinsey Scale at the top, and the lower point is X. As for the colours, black is the absence of colour so the asexual part of the triangle is black, while sexuality (the scale) is white, the opposite. The grey area between them represents the place in between asexual and sexual- the grey-asexuals, demisexuals, etc. The reason these three colours are used on the flag is just that- black for asexuals, grey for the grey area, white for sexual allies).


Ah, thanks for that, the triangle, colours, flag all make sense to me now. Good stuff :) I think i must be a very dark grey, a grey-asexual.

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#69 Lirael1

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:53 PM

Just to head this off at the pass, asexuality is definitely nothing new to me, AVEN just ain't my kinda scene. Don't know anyone else who's registered here, in fact - I just did it for the voting (although apparently a few days too late). Nothing personal, this place just isn't the right fit for a lot of people. Props to Phoenix and everyone else who keeps that in mind!

Anyway, A1 wasn't the flag I was rooting for by a long shot (I will mourn C2 forever), but I'm still cool with it. I'm even gonna give making a patch for my jacket a go if someone doesn't start selling better ones first. If nothing else, it's nice how this design is easily identifiable with the other orientations' flags, you know? Helps with visibility.

I heard what the colors are supposed to represent mentioned elsewhere, though, and was pretty taken aback. Okay, so the black is asexuality, the gray is demisexuality/gray-a, the purple is community, but the white is... sexuality? ...what? Why? Nobody I know can make sense of it either, so could someone here maybe offer some insight? I mean, I don't see the gay pride flag having a stripe representing straight people, and rightly so. Even if sexuals offered us nothing but unwavering support and understanding (ahahahaha) it'd still be more than acceptable and understandable for there to be just one thing that was exclusively for the 1%~ of the population that's only recently begun to grow in visibility as ace. Essentially everything about how society has been structured throughout history, as well as (very notably) the media it's produced, has been geared towards or pertaining to sexuals. If anyone has been looking for the straight pride parade, it's on all the other streets of every single city, every single day. Just this one thing is supposed to be for us. So what's up?

While I'm probably the first person to bring this concern up here, I know I'm definitely not the only one who's found the revelation really weirdly inappropriate. Nonetheless, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it strikes me as "servile", as one of my friends put it, because, well... it honestly does sort of smack of that, so I figure this must just be some sort of bizarre misunderstanding, right? What was the actual intent here?

Whatever it may be, if this point being brought up has opened anyone else up to the potential unfortunate implications of the stripes' currently ascribed meanings, I think we should seriously consider redefining them while the paint's still fresh, so to speak. I personally would suggest a very slight alteration to black = asexuality, gray = gray-a, white = demisexuality, and purple = community. Anyone else have some ideas?


Demisexual here, and I was actually quite pleased to have the white stripe included. Because demisexuals who are in romantic relationships can end up functioning pretty much like sexuals - just, we're only sexual with the specific person we're interested in. But at other times and with other people, we can be more like asexuals, or grey-a's. I feel like the black/grey/white spectrum is the only thing that would fully encompass all of my sexuality, the sexual part as well as the asexual part.

In other words, the black, grey, and white stripes don't necessarily have to represent three distinct groups of people. A single person within the ace community can fluctuate back and forth between them. And I'm glad to be able to have a flag that acknowledges that.

#70 Pilot

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:04 PM

This is an interesting post. I didn't read the description very well, I suppose, as the juxtaposition never popped out at me once. I think your retranslation to asexuality/gray-a/demi/community to be pretty fair. Personally, I've never understood demisexuality, view it as its own sexuality, and therefore still in the realm of including sexuality in general (but maybe it was just my lack of interest in finding a more fitted description of what demisexuality is). However, to those that find "sexuality" being included as offensive, I'd say that's a pretty decent alternative.

I believe demisexuality is also considered as falling under the umbrella of the asexual community due to the fact that, well, they just have a tremendous amount in common with us. They may have a sexual core to them that we don't, yeah, but it's likely that the vast majority of their experiences (essentially the entirety of their lives in which they aren't in a serious emotional relationship, as I understand it) are exactly the same as ours. There's no need to force them to invalidate a portion of their experiences to fit neatly into the sexual or asexual verses. We may undeniably have our differences, but it's also important to acknowledge the similarities that set us apart from the majority of the population.

The only real issue here is that sometimes demis and gray-As actually say they are asexual instead of just demisexual/gray-a and thus considered part of the larger asexual community. All too often I've seen people dismiss asexuality entirely because they once saw a self-professed asexual going on about all the hot people they want to get it on with and how much they love reading and writing rape fanfiction. Asexuality is a concept sexuals apparently have quite a time wrapping their heads around in the first place, so when given a shred of apparent contradiction they are quick to reject it entirely.

So long as people aren't afraid to say who the really are there certainly isn't anything wrong with demis being included. And hey, maybe some of them would even like it if they one day got enough of their own together to unite under a separate flag. It's all good, you know?


Now, on the grounds of defining why it would be "sexuality", I can't say what the original intentions were. What I can do, though, is give my own personal insight as to why it could be this way. With that in mind, I considered the ramifications of including a stripe to mention "community." In this way, we acknowledge that the nurture and environment around us greatly impacts who we are -- and in the terms of asexuality, the community is going to impact who we are as a group quite a lot. I'd even go to say that we're impacted by sexuals more than gays are impacted by straights (your comparison), and therefore warrants its acknowledgment in our development, our trials and our future thus.

It certainly has affected us, yes, and likely to a greater extent than it has other orientations, as a strong urge to the contrary of what you've been told to feel is far easier to make sense of than the complete absence of an urge you don't know what it's like to experience in the first place. That said, we've truly found ourselves now, and I feel as though the symbol that represents us ought to acknowledge that above all, it's where we've built ourselves up to in the end that matters most.

To elaborate, your example of gays not acknowledging straights in their flag for a good reason is, of course, true. I'm not saying that straight people dont affect and didn't affect gays or the gay development, but that initially straights persecuted the gays for not being straight. In comparison, asexuality has all the walls gays did with straights, but with /everybody./ There can be a bridge between gays and straights, as they both can understand the realm of sexuality. The only wall is with gender. Between asexuals and sexuals, the wall is between sexuality and gender. In this way, homosexuality was barred for being genderly inaccurate, whereby now asexuality is barred for -- and this is kind of hard for me to explain, so thanks for baring so far -- in essence, not existing. By acknowledging this on our flag, we're metaphorically tearing down the wall that we don't exist, and pushing it one step further by including the bar under it as community. Therefore, not only do we exist, but we exist in unison and harmony within a global community.

I'm really sorry, dude, but I think you might have lost me a little here. Might be my fault, though, as I'm currently pretty sleep deprived. Obviously the best time to be attempting to articulate my thoughts and understand those of others, yeah? Anyway, if you've segued into the reasoning behind the community stripe here, I'd certainly agree. Community isn't an insular thing, but rather a group of people who support one another. All of those who are willing to be supportive would certainly have a place, whoever they may be. As it stands it's probably safe to assume that the community is almost exclusively ace/demi/gray-a, but a world in which the rest of the population expands to include us and we can subsequently return the favor is certainly one to look forward to, or at least rather delusionally and futilely daydream of. It's the addition of an entirely separate stripe for such allies that is intensely problematic. Much like the concept of mere "tolerance" in place of what should be outright acceptance and understanding, it implies that the majority somehow deserves accolades for what ought to be an absolutely base standard of behavior and compassion. Allies need to cast aside their privilege for a moment and realize that when they choose to be an ally it's about the group they're supporting for once, not them. For example, I support a variety of movements, groups, etc whose status and rights do not have bearing on my own, and I'd balk at the prospect of being given some special recognition for my involvement, especially in, say, a symbol representing them, because it's about them, not me.

I believe this has recently been an issue in the greater LGBT community, in fact. Awhile ago I saw a discussion regarding the term being expanded to LGBTIAA, with the second A being for allies. I think I've made my point regarding why this is incredibly inappropriate, so no need to reiterate what was said in response to that, yeah?

Alternatively I'm sure it's perfectly fine for people to have their own meanings behind the choices. White for purity, white for innocence, etc etc.

Just to derail for a second here, this is actually a great reason for asexuality to be represented by the black bar. Even in the abscence of established stereotypes the concept of asexuality unfortunately seems to immediately bring to mind for most people a naive, milquetoast, possibly repressed, and almost certainly underdeveloped individual. Given what I've heard of others making their asexuality known, it's quite unusual that I've had few so few people thus far come right out and tell me they think I'm lying, confused, unadventurous, etc, and I'm sure it's due in no small part to my being what's beeen described to me as pretty obviously confident, shamelessly unrepressed, and either assertive or aggressive. Probably also helps that I'm unusually prone to that there cussin' (which I hear isn't appreciated here, so I'm trying so hard to omit it, you guys. So hard.) Seriously, people who have never so much as heard of the concept of asexuality before have stood there in front of me after I've explained it, apparently taking a moment to formulate some insulting imaginary stereotype of an asexual person in their mind, and then expressed surprise that I, the first and only ace they've ever actually met or heard of, am nothing like that. I just... what?

Anyway, I think it goes without saying that there's a myriad of personality types out there, so if we want to avoid being taken even less seriously we should at the very least make sure we don't actively associate ourselves with concepts like "purity" and "innocence" and all the pretty seriously negative associations they entail, because people will jump at the conclusion even in the complete absence of supporting evidence. And okay, I guess that was more of a rant than anything. Sorry. It's just so frustrating to think that people are being disbelieved and talked down to even more fervently just because of who they are. There's nothing wrong with just wanting to chill out or keep to yourself a little, people. It shouldn't invalidate anything.



Oh yeah, and to end this meandering wall of text, I thought you guys might want to know that the stripes on the flag in the OP are erratically sized, which distorts the perception of how the different shades of purple and gray actually affect its overall apperance. These are fine, though.

#71 bristrek

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:44 PM

Oooo, good point. The stripes should be a bit more uniform lol, thanks for the link. And did I ever say I like the so called 'Dark Grey' and Purple combo best?

And I agree we should stay away from 'we are innocent, weeee' thing cause it does bring up some mistaken, and sometimes negative, connotations.

The black/white/grey stripes do represent the spectrum from asexuality to sexuality because it isn't a fixed point thing, it's a scale and some move around it a bit through their lives. Some like the demis may feel like they hold a bit of each in them. So the white stripe should be there for them.

And though allies shouldn't get special treatment or anything they are a part of our community, especially ones like Oliver who have been here for longer ages and live with it even if they don't experience it. Sorry for singling Oliver out, he's just the first one who came to mind.

It isn't like straight allies of gay people where you can be an ally because a friend or a sister/brother/parent/child is gay because although you're close you don't.... it is maybe more like a straight person being an ally when their partner is bi though again not really because they at least have an element of their sexuality in common. But this isn't to take away from them at all, and it isn't to take away from allies who're friends and family of aces. But sexuals who are in long term relationships with asexuals? I'd say they experience it, if from a different angle and in a different way. So the white stripe should be there for them.

And it's also a plain ol' illustration of the sliding scale from asexuality to sexuality, our y axis of the Kinsey scale and the white stripe should be there for that reason.



That's my take on why I'm yay white stripe being in it. It's all of those things, together and equally.

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#72 ExeCUTE

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:28 PM

Update on the crafts area: I can't find fabric in the proper shade(s) of purple at my local store, so I'm lagging behind a bit in the race to have the first flag :lol: .... But I do have a piece of fabric with a mini-version of it fabric-transferred on! Hmm, I wonder what to do with it..?
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#73 Siggy

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 04:31 PM

No, you can't change the meaning of the colors just like that. White stands for sexuals, and it has a history of standing for sexuals. We like our allies enough to include them on the flag, see.

You also mentioned that the gay pride flag doesn't have a color specifically for allies. Well, no. But some of the other flags do.

Bisexual pride flag:

The deep pink or rose stripe at the top of the flag represents the possibility of same gender attraction; the royal blue stripe at the bottom of the flag represents the possibility of different gender attraction and the stripes overlap in the central fifth of the flag to form a deep shade of lavender or purple, which represents the possibility of attraction anywhere along the entire gender spectrum.


Transgender Pride flag:

The light blue is the traditional color for baby boys, pink is for girls, and the white in the middle is for those who are transitioning, those who feel they have a neutral gender or no gender, and those who are intersexed. The pattern is such that no matter which way you fly it, it will always be correct.


White is important because it puts us into a larger context: we are one end of a continuous spectrum. No matter where you fall on that spectrum, the asexual community accepts you as you are.

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#74 Admiral Kitteh

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:21 PM

It's not the one I picked but it could be worse... I doubt I'll use it, but I'm happy for the community to have a flag if others want one to have pride.

#75 theDC-Ronin

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:51 PM

I feel like a jerk for saying it, but I don't like this design at all. :-/ I know that the intention is to connect to other queer/rainbow-type flags, but I find the plain horizontal bars uninspiring and ugly. Sorry.

I voted for the flag with the four "slices" of colour from the bottom left-hand corner and would probably still use that design if I were to use the symbol. I'd keep the arangement of colours from A1, so I think it would still be recognizable as the same symbol anyways. I'd just consider it a variation of the same flag.

Either way, it's important for a minority community to have symbols they can rally behind and identify each other with. So in that sense, regardless of personal taste, I'm behind this flag.
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#76 Pilot

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:04 AM

No, you can't change the meaning of the colors just like that. White stands for sexuals, and it has a history of standing for sexuals. We like our allies enough to include them on the flag, see.

"We", eh? Interesting phrasing you've got there, considering how nobody I know supports the whole "white = sexuality" interpretation, and I'm sure you'd find no shortage of aces who share the same viewpoint elsewhere. This couldn't be that famous condescension and dismissal of everyone from outside the forums that turned so many of my friends away, could it? Given that you don't hold a special place in the community that automatically grants you precedence, you're going to have to make the same efforts everyone else thus far has to articulate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. Essentially saying, "Nuh-uh, because I say so!" in so many words isn't really compelling. This is a friendly discourse intended to foster greater understanding between people with different viewpoints who may simply not yet have had the opportunity to consider differing ones. Chill out and try to remember that.

You also seem to be a bit confused by the description of the trans and bi flags' meanings. Neither of those include allies in any way, but rather individuals who could be considered bi or trans outside of an incredibly strict definition, much like how demi and gray-a individuals are thought to fall under the greater asexual umbrella. For example, the bi flag includes both traditional bisexuals with the pink and blue stripes, as well as pansexuals with the lavender stripe. Although pans have since begun to consider their own flag and colors, they were once thought to fall under the bi umbrella due to the similarity of their being attracted to more than one gender. As for the trans flag, the blue and pink clearly represent transgirls/boys, not cisgirls/boys. Once again, genderless and intersexed individuals are included due to similarities between their experiences and those of transpeople, and the fact that at the time of the flag's creation they didn't yet have one of their own to rally under (although there is now also a separate intersex flag).

Furthermore, if you're worried about "preserving history" or what have you, you also needn't worry, because you'd be hard pressed to find even a country that hasn't made considerably larger changes after a much, much longer period of time under a given symbol. This has been so common throughout history that it would really be easier to list the exceptions than examples.

The black/white/grey stripes do represent the spectrum from asexuality to sexuality because it isn't a fixed point thing, it's a scale and some move around it a bit through their lives. Some like the demis may feel like they hold a bit of each in them. So the white stripe should be there for them.
[...]
It isn't like straight allies of gay people where you can be an ally because a friend or a sister/brother/parent/child is gay because although you're close you don't.... it is maybe more like a straight person being an ally when their partner is bi though again not really because they at least have an element of their sexuality in common. But this isn't to take away from them at all, and it isn't to take away from allies who're friends and family of aces. But sexuals who are in long term relationships with asexuals? I'd say they experience it, if from a different angle and in a different way. So the white stripe should be there for them.

And it's also a plain ol' illustration of the sliding scale from asexuality to sexuality, our y axis of the Kinsey scale and the white stripe should be there for that reason.

That's my take on why I'm yay white stripe being in it.

Demisexual here, and I was actually quite pleased to have the white stripe included. Because demisexuals who are in romantic relationships can end up functioning pretty much like sexuals - just, we're only sexual with the specific person we're interested in. But at other times and with other people, we can be more like asexuals, or grey-a's. I feel like the black/grey/white spectrum is the only thing that would fully encompass all of my sexuality, the sexual part as well as the asexual part.

In other words, the black, grey, and white stripes don't necessarily have to represent three distinct groups of people. A single person within the ace community can fluctuate back and forth between them. And I'm glad to be able to have a flag that acknowledges that.

Just as an aside, I hope nobody thinks there's a push for the white stripe to be removed altogether instead of just slightly redefined. I mean, it really ties the flag together, you know?

That said, you certainly bring to light an interesting perspective, Lirael. I personally am genderless, so this example is just a recounting of the feelings of others, but the gender fluid/genderqueer individuals I've known were without fail extraordinarily happy when they discovered that there was a name for people like them. Feeling as though they fluctuated between the concepts of man/woman or girl/boy was distressing and depersonalizing, as apparently it caused them to feel as though they were brushing aside an important part of themselves when they were experiencing a period of time in which they could have been described as more neatly falling into the binary. Adopting the label of gender fluid or genderqueer allowed them to acknowledge that yes, they may have been having an ostensibly boyish sort of day, but they were still who they were, and the scope of identifications they cycled through were still their own and within their own identity, not cobbled together out of those of others. Their explanations struck me as particularly compelling, so I suppose I just sort of assumed that viewpoint would be an equally empowering one for other people in similar situations. Was that too hasty of a conclusion?

Instead of ricoheting between the concepts of asexuality and sexuality as circumstances change, do you think you could also imagine feeling fulfilled by a whole stripe (or even two, if you wish to include gray-a) being dedicated to the entire spectrum of your lifetime's experiences, a sort of grounding that would make it clear that no matter what segment of your demisexuality was being expressed at the time, it would still be who you are at the core? Neither asexuality nor sexuality is truly encompassing of the entire breadth of your experience, after all.

Anyway, no matter where someone falls on the spectrum under the asexual umbrella, the fact of the matter is that, well, they're still by definition within the spectrum of asexuality/gray-a/demisexuality. Someone from the latter two groups might at times have experiences that are very similar to if not indistinguishable at a glance from those of sexual people, but they are still their own, and will never tip over the precipice into those of exclusive sexuals. Given that, the sexuality stripe could be considered really more of a functionless formality than anything, as it would probably be safe to reassign it without compromising the full breadth of anyone's experiences, which would be adequately covered by the entire rest of the spectrum. Exclusive sexuality is but a tiny sliver at the end. I also don't really think an illustration of the entire Kinsey scale is necessary to put us in a properly understandable context. I mean, most people are probably pretty aware of the existence of sexuals already, right? If anything, it would likely just cause more confusion. More on that later. So far as allies are concerned, I believe it's been stated that the community stripe would serve this purpose fine, if not considerably better, since our aim is unity between all. The black, grey, and white stripes could be for the identities of those who fall within the spectrum of ace/demi/gray-a, and the purple community stripe could be for them as well as their allies, to better highlight the manner in which we aspire to be one in supporting each other for all of our differences.

I'm gonna go ahead and finish this off with a point I've sort of been avoiding, because it's a rather unfortunate thing to have to acknowledge, but the main purpose of having a symbol like this to rally behind is visibility, and it is therefore necessary to consider how it will be interpreted by the population at large. The fact of the matter is that there is a virtual cornucopia of problematic and harmful ways in which a stripe representing "sexuality" would be misconstrued. As previously mentioned, sexuals very much tend to have an inordinately difficult time understanding the concept of aces, and given half the chance they'll grasp desperately at straws to deny that they exist at all. I'm sure this is no news to anyone here. Having a stripe representing "sexuality" in the flag we use as a symbol for asexuality unnecessarily presents the perfect opportunity for people to think, "Aha! I knew it! I totally knew it. It is impossible for anyone to exist entirely without sexuality. See, even they admit it! They're all just confused/repressed/sad and disabled and broken/trying to be special snowflakes after all." The other most likely outcome would be that they wouldn't take it as evidence of asexuality's nonexistence, but rather the undeniable superiority of sexuals. "By golly, a whole new minority that we previously hadn't even been aware of who experience life and relationships in a manner we wouldn't have even thought possible? And yet here they are with an entire stripe of their flag dedicated to us and the things they claim some of them don't experience at all, and others still experience in different ways!" Wow, it's like a dream come true for feelings of superiority and ego stroking! If it sounds illogical, yeah, that's because it is, and if the general populace seems extraordinarily easily confused, yeah, that's because they are, but pointing that out won't do a thing to stop it. People just work that way, which is a fact that unfortunately must be acknowledged. These are only a few examples, and more are simply an inevitability. The only question is the extent to which these interpretations will immediately spring to mind for people.

#77 corduroyjackalope

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:14 AM

I've begun to make shoe laces with the stripes going horrizontal, and the importance to having an inbetween grey has become really apparent. with something so small, it would be easy for the grey to blend with the white or black. If we were to make flag rings, having colors not looking so close together would also be important.
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#78 X Phoenix X

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:33 AM

I just read up on the meanings behind some of the other pride flags. Nowhere did I see that the rainbow LGBT flag actually excludes heterosexuals. It originally contained a hot pink stripe at the top which simply symbolized sexuality. The other colors don't even relate to different orientations. So as far as the white on our flag standing for sexuals, I'm fine with it. Like someone said before, it could be for allies. Actually, I see our community as a supporter of (or part of) the LGBT community so I could interpret the white stripe as symbolic of the rainbow flag, since white light contains all of the colors in the visible spectrum. The horizontal stripes may be uninspired, but I think a simplistic design that is readily recognizable as an orientation pride flag is a good thing. I changed my facebook profile default to this flag to get the word out. I think it would be really cool if those that had facebook did the same for a day or so. People would start to wonder, "hey what are those stripes about I keep seeing?" If everyone could get 3 people to do it and so on it would be great for visibility. I want to see my news feed full of flags!
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#79 Pilot

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:32 AM

Actually, I see our community as a supporter of (or part of) the LGBT community so I could interpret the white stripe as symbolic of the rainbow flag, since white light contains all of the colors in the visible spectrum.

You know, that's actually a really awesome interpretation! I've also always seen us as being a part of the larger queer community, or at very least classifiable as a queer sort of movement, what with being an orientation apart from the currently reigning heterosexuality and all. Guess it doesn't take much, eh?

Anyone who's been around a bit will have noticed quite a bit of hate directed towards us from the greater LGBTQ community as we grow in visibility, of course, but the same is true for bisexuals, pansexuals, transpeople, etc... basically anyone who isn't just straight up gay or lesbian is fair game, but things seem to be moving away from that, slowly but surely. Just as there are those who are quick to brush aside our shared experiences and adversities in favor of hate, there are those who are willing to learn and offer reciprocal support. While the rainbow flag seems to have over time narrowed to represent merely homosexuality, that wasn't always its intent, and I at least hope that eventually we can all grow together as a united community once again, bigger and more varied than before. Viewing the white stripe as a sort of prism that unites us with the larger queer community seems like an appropriately open and positive way to look towards a better future.

#80 Siggy

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:39 AM

"We", eh? Interesting phrasing you've got there, considering how nobody I know supports the whole "white = sexuality" interpretation, and I'm sure you'd find no shortage of aces who share the same viewpoint elsewhere. This couldn't be that famous condescension and dismissal of everyone from outside the forums that turned so many of my friends away, could it?

Well if the choice is between condescension of allies and condescension of asexuals who refuse to acknowledge and appreciate allies, then I would choose the latter. Sorry, but if you make me choose one or the other, then I'm not choosing you.

You also seem to be a bit confused by the description of the trans and bi flags' meanings. Neither of those include allies in any way, but rather individuals who could be considered bi or trans outside of an incredibly strict definition, much like how demi and gray-a individuals are thought to fall under the greater asexual umbrella.

The same argument can be made for the white stripe. As a gray-A, I feel like I'm standing at a precipice here, between acceptance and rejection. If I were just a bit more sexual, I don't get to be part of the asexual community? Screw that. Precisely what I like about the asexual community is that they're accepting of a wide range of sexualities. Even though I am in the asexual spectrum, a community that rejects allies is one that rejects me.

Furthermore, if you're worried about "preserving history" or what have you, you also needn't worry, because you'd be hard pressed to find even a country that hasn't made considerably larger changes after a much, much longer period of time under a given symbol. This has been so common throughout history that it would really be easier to list the exceptions than examples.

The attitude that rejects the history of symbols is the exact same attitude which will discard this flag in the future. That's all I care about. I'm not conservative in general, but there is good reason to be conservative about symbols.

Having a stripe representing "sexuality" in the flag we use as a symbol for asexuality unnecessarily presents the perfect opportunity for people to think, "Aha! I knew it! I totally knew it. It is impossible for anyone to exist entirely without sexuality. See, even they admit it! They're all just confused/repressed/sad and disabled and broken/trying to be special snowflakes after all." The other most likely outcome would be that they wouldn't take it as evidence of asexuality's nonexistence, but rather the undeniable superiority of sexuals.

Honestly, this reasoning is so implausible that anyone who believes that will reject asexuality anyway.

I believe this has recently been an issue in the greater LGBT community, in fact. Awhile ago I saw a discussion regarding the term being expanded to LGBTIAA, with the second A being for allies. I think I've made my point regarding why this is incredibly inappropriate, so no need to reiterate what was said in response to that, yeah?

You are entirely mistaken if you think this is a recent thing. You are also mistaken if you think that the term has not already been expanded to LGBTQQIAAetc. LGBT is the standard, but they add on a ton of extra letters when it's not a total inconvenience. My experience in the gay community is that they love allies. Allies are unspeakably important. Really the only time I see hesitation to appreciate allies is when allies try to be leaders.

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#81 Pilot

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:24 AM

Well if the choice is between condescension of allies and condescension of asexuals who refuse to acknowledge and appreciate allies, then I would choose the latter. Sorry, but if you make me choose one or the other, then I'm not choosing you.

No-one has been failing to acknowledge and appreciate allies, and I suspect you actually possess the reading comprehension skills to realize that. You're going to need a better excuse for your wholly unwarranted hostility.


As a gray-A, I feel like I'm standing at a precipice here, between acceptance and rejection. If I were just a bit more sexual, I don't get to be part of the asexual community? Screw that. Precisely what I like about the asexual community is that they're accepting of a wide range of sexualities. Even though I am in the asexual spectrum, a community that rejects allies is one that rejects me.

Well, you're not. From everything I've seen, it's self-identification that matters, and unless someone comes right out and says that they're 100% sexual, always have been, always will be, and identify with that above all else, I would be very surprised indeed to see anyone tell them they can't at the very least be considered thoroughly gray-a.

Regarding allies, once again: reread what has been said if you must, because no-one has been speaking ill of them, just outlining some of the issues that can arise due to individuals with an unwarranted sense of self importance.

Really the only time I see hesitation to appreciate allies is when allies try to be leaders.

And here it is. Anyone who's been following things for awhile will see that this sort of thing grows out of an initial desire to be acknowledged in some patently unnecessary way, and are thus understandably wary of where it may lead. Once again, though, even this doesn't cause people to cease appreciating allies in general, just those who have made it clear that they care more for their own glory than the people they claim to support.

The only thing the aforementioned 100% happily sexual would be denied would the ability to call themselves ace, considering that, you know, it would simply be a misnomer. The difference between asexuals and non-asexuals is one of definition, not a wall preventing intermingling and mutual support.


The attitude that rejects the history of symbols is the exact same attitude which will discard this flag in the future. That's all I care about. I'm not conservative in general, but there is good reason to be conservative about symbols.

The gay pride flag has been changed noticeably in appearance, not merely small aspects of its meaning, on multiple occasions, and it's still going strong. As it stands, it seems as though it's finally reached a point of stasis. The fact that it and other flags, such as that of asexuality, tend to undergo a period of growth in their relative infancy before settling on their final form is in no way indicative of them having a particular potential to be discarded in the future. I understand your fears, but believe them to be misplaced. As I said, the paint is still fresh here, so to speak. While it may not be obvious for some time of come, in the greater scheme of things we're currently still very much embroiled within the nebulous throes of creation.


You are entirely mistaken if you think this is a recent thing. You are also mistaken if you think that the term has not already been expanded to LGBTQQIAAetc. LGBT is the standard, but they add on a ton of extra letters when it's not a total inconvenience.

I don't, no, but the configuration and inclusion of the letters varies wildly from individual to individual, group to group, and yet when it comes to the really high profile things, suddenly it shrinks down again. There's still quite a ways to go for those who think those letters have all stuck.

#82 bristrek

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:45 AM

I think a core thing is that the white stripe represents sexuality and it can do so for any number of valid reasons - pick one you like best, but it still means sexuality. I don't want to sound condescending towards those not in AVEN but they are a part of our community either as straight allies or with us as a part of the greater LGBTetc and so on and I will not, ever, throw them away. And to do so just seems rude. Which aside from being rude also seems in total contrast to this community's efforts to be as open and inclusive as it can be - which yes it can sometimes fail at but it's made up of human so that's to be expected. But we try.

Those who're going to take the white stripe to prove that, really, we are all sexuals who just need to meet the right person to 'fix' us or something are going to think so anyway, and any we may be able to educate on this wont change their minds because of one stripe on the flag.

I know some in the LGBTetc community don't look on us fondly but guess what? Plenty more either don't know about us or look on us pretty well. I walked in London Pride behind the AVEN banner (as it was organised by AVENites and attended by us) handing out literature on asexuality to the crowd and also to those around us in the parade. Several came up to us and asked for the leaflets we had and I talked to several who were nothing but polite, interested and positive about it. And I've seen people identifying as asexual on places like AfterEllen or various queer blogs and treated well - hell, we're half taking over Queer secrets on tumblr and nobody seems to hate us.

The flag has been over the various queer communities on tumblr and I didn't see any negative responses except those wondering when the straights would get a flag next (and that sort are going to be like that with anything not in their own corner) and so so on.

Most of 'em don't know us or like us just fine. And even if they didn't, I still don't see how that means no white stripe meaning sexuality.

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#83 theDC-Ronin

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 09:05 AM

I think you've all misunderstood the meanings of the colours.

Black = tea
Grey = rainy days
White = cake. :cake:

I assume the purple just stands for awesome.
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#84 bristrek

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 09:07 AM

I think you've all misunderstood the meanings of the colours.

Black = tea
Grey = rainy days
White = cake. :cake:

I assume the purple just stands for awesome.



Sounds like a typical British afternoon. Except the cake for me, I don't have any in the house boooooo.

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#85 Siggy

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:14 PM

No-one has been failing to acknowledge and appreciate allies, and I suspect you actually possess the reading comprehension skills to realize that. You're going to need a better excuse for your wholly unwarranted hostility.

I suppose the best explanation is that I've been judging your proposal rather than your intentions. Sorry if I ever confused the two. Your proposal is a lot unfriendlier than you intend. To have a flag that doesn't acknowledge sexuals or allies is fine, but it's a slap in the face to have that white stripe and then insist that it does not represent sexuals.

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:22 PM

I think it's good to have a colour for sexuals as it shows that asexuals can and do date sexual people. It's not just about allies in the sense of outsiders who support us but an acknowledgement that there's asexuals who are in actual relationships with sexual people, so it would be silly to ignore that.

#87 standup

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 01:37 AM

The white was initially included to represent sexual partners of aces, but I actually like the meaning proposed by someone that it's all the colors of the light spectrum combined (kind of like a rainbow in disguise). Either way you look at it, I mean... there doesn't have to be one set meaning. I interpret the bi flag differently than it was intended to be interpreted. It's not like anyone is saying "this is an Asexual Rule you must follow, so you either accept this meaning or you're not Ace".

I see a lot of discussion about it here, and that's just my opinion - there doesn't need to be an absolute meaning that has to be obligatorily followed.

#88 Pandoren

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 03:16 AM

Guess who has finished making hir flag? It's taken me the last three days to weave and it looks really tatty... I'll see if it holds together long enough for a photo rofl

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#89 Pilot

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 06:11 AM

I suppose the best explanation is that I've been judging your proposal rather than your intentions. Sorry if I ever confused the two. Your proposal is a lot unfriendlier than you intend. To have a flag that doesn't acknowledge sexuals or allies is fine, but it's a slap in the face to have that white stripe and then insist that it does not represent sexuals.

If it really came off that way it certainly wasn't my intent, no. I actually made quite an effort to eliminate as much ambiguity as possible from my posts to avoid more potential misunderstandings (as you can maybe see from how huge they are), but I guess I couldn't do a perfect job, especially since I've admittedly been pretty preoccupied and exhausted lately. Difficulty of exact communication is incidentally one of the reasons I've grown away from the internet over the years despite it having been such an important part of my life when I was younger. Having nothing to work with but text just makes it too easy to let your current state of mind color your perception of others' words, you know? It's a bit too difficult to ensure that you've truly understood the other party, for better or for worse, to be a reliable means of communication. Sometimes it's the only way, though, so hey, here I am.

If you still want more elaboration on that, I've been "insisting" nothing, just attempting to bring to light some issues with the way the current structure of things could be misconstrued in a pretty unfortunate manner, plus subsequently offering some potential alternatives. I'll go into more detail about that later. The main thing is that I think things aren't yet set in stone, so it's far from erasing anything to engage in discourse regarding still being in the process of reworking some non-cosmetic details. Perhaps the most notable thing that confused me and everyone I discussed the potential meanings of the white stripe with before coming here was that we had assumed (apparently incorrectly?) that the purple "community" stripe was already intended to encompass not only aces, demis, and gray-a, but also allies, sexual partners, etc, making a separate stripe for "sexuality" highly redundant and thus disconcertingly inexplicable. Perhaps the actual concerns it raised will be more understandable when put into that context. I still think the purple stripe would be a more apt choice for that, by the way, because it indicates that we are all united when it comes to community, not somehow separated due to our orientations.


Anyway, though I now see how people who are demi or gray-a could consider a sexuality stripe relevant to them, I still think having the gray be for gray-a, the white be for demis, and the purple be for the entire community would be a good idea, not only for the reasons I outlined above or in previous posts, but because I can easily imagine someone who identifies as demi or gray-a feeling marginalized by the fact that aces get an entire stripe to themselves while the other two, very much separate things, are crammed together into the same stripe.

I'm now also pretty enthusiastic about the white stripe = spectrum of light idea, though. The only issue would be that it might make the purple community stripe a little redundant, yeah? If we decide to go with this we should obviously redefine the purple stripe to mean something completely out of the left field like the remaining stripes of the rainbow pride flag. They're all about, like, magic and nature and serenity and sunlight and all, which is basically just straight up hilariously awesome. And speaking of such, this'd be fine too.

I assume the purple just stands for awesome.


I walked in London Pride behind the AVEN banner (as it was organised by AVENites and attended by us) handing out literature on asexuality to the crowd and also to those around us in the parade. Several came up to us and asked for the leaflets we had and I talked to several who were nothing but polite, interested and positive about it.

Well hey, that's pretty cool to hear! I'm not too surprised about the internet being where people who are a little bit ahead of things congregate (or a lot behind, admittedly), but I've had some experiences with gay and lesbian people getting all up in my face about it, so it's always great to hear about people being open and willing to learn. For anyone wondering, a lot of them initially approach me because I'm genderless and present in an appropriately androgynous manner, so it's apparently often assumed that I'm instead a really butch lesbian or a really femmey gay guy (perfectly sensible!), and evidently some people just really hate being mistaken. Oh well, haters gonna hate, yeah? There have been way more people who were chill and accepting about it, of course, and even if I hadn't met and been friends with people from all across the spectrum of orientations and identities I'd know to remember that the obnoxious ones are always the most conspicuous. There's definitely no shortage of supportive individuals in the larger queer community, no, and despite the negative ones I think that overall things seem to be going in the right direction when it comes to general acceptance and openness.


Okay, to get back on track here, the bottom line is that I came here seeking an explanation for the white stripe = "sexuality" thing, in fact having been the only one among the people I discussed it with who wasn't entirely convinced of it having some horribly offensive and pandering significance, and though I now have a much better idea of what its intent was, the fact of that matter is that I'm not hooked up to some greater asexual hivemind. There will absolutely be people in the future who come to similarly disturbing conclusions, and whatever the white stripe ends up meaning, it clearly has to be communicated in a manner more descriptive than a single word can manage.

#90 Pandoren

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 02:31 PM

I still think having the gray be for gray-a, the white be for demis,


lol... demisexual is a form of grey-A... It's just one of the common variations that has a label...

In any case, bear in mind the AVEN triangle has white for sexuality (the Kinsey Scale), grey for grey-A and black for asexuals, so it's already an established representation. I personally like the idea of having a stripe for sexual allies because it is an open and inclusive statement, not like segregating asexuals any more than they already seem to be (us asexual vs the 99% type thing). We are a small percentage with communication issues and isolation from the rest of society and on top of that, I've heard accusations that asexuals think themselves above sexual people because they don't experience animal sexual urges etc(I'm not saying that's true, but if you consider that image, having the white stripe just seems to say to me that it's not just The Asexual Cult, but We Are Part Of Society and it is Us And People Who Accept Us.) I don't think I'm quite getting across what is in my head at the moment but maybe you get the broad idea.

the bottom line is that I came here seeking an explanation for the white stripe = "sexuality" thing,


Put that way, yeah, I can see how it can be confusing. I prefer to say "sexual allies" which would include accepting family of Aces and indeed anyone not connected who accepts. I think those words are probably more accurate and less confusing.

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