TransWhatevers of AVEN

[Autumn Sunrise]

A special milestone, Hadley - I'm happy for you 

[daveb]

@Hadley167, awesome! 

 

@Autumn Sunrise, that episode is one where Shatner sees a gremlin messing around on the plane, tearing up parts of the outside of the plane. But he can't get anyone to believe him. Scared the bejeebers out of me back then when I first saw it! 

[just an owl]

@Hadley167 That's great news :D

 

Random thing, there's this guy who hangs around with occasionally and I'm pretty sure he's a trans guy, my friend used "he" when introducing him although (and I really don't mean this in a bad way?) he doesn't exactly pass.

And no ones outright /said/ anything about it, but watching everyone hesitate when it comes to pronouns is... yeah. 

My friend who introduced us to him uses he, so I and a couple others use that, a few people just use they, one or two use she, and some people just avoided pronouns entirely. 

 

But hey, none of them are being completely transphobic so... maybe I don't have much to worry about when I come out. 

[Guest]

Ohh passing. I have been looking into that alot lately.Well, for some or other reason, people often mistake me for a he and it's funny to see how they respond when i turn. "Oh, sorry maam"  I guess as far as passing i don't really have to do much to get my point across

 

If your friends group have  no issues accepting that guy then i don't think you would have much to worry about when you come out! Good luck!

 

Ah, positive messages in the morning, they really make my day, I should visit this thread more often

[oldme]

Nice to come back and read about positive things happening to people.

 

I came back from my trip to the capital yesterday. I went to the phoniatricians checkup that was recommended by the doctor at the gender clinic. The good news is that my vocal chords are normal and they said the pitch of my voice is already perfect, so in my case the voice training should be easy. I wasn't aware that my voice is so high when I speak normally and I'm not forcing my "super male voice". Your own voice just sounds so different to your own ears, so it's hard to tell.

[Mezzo Forte]

Testosterone is one hell of a drug when it comes to passing. I went from being read female 100% of the time until my haircut, then I only passed when people had reason to think I was 12, then I was completely ambiguous, and then I suddenly started passing near 100% of the time. I think I hit that level of passing by 5~6 months, and I'm getting read so consistently even now that I've basically stopped wearing compression entirely and have been letting my near non-existent facial hair grow out.

 

It's weird because I really see the difference if I compare photos of me from 2014 to now, but pre-T to now doesn't seem that different. Yet, somewhere in there is the line between passing and not. 

 

Still, it's kinda interesting that I can almost take passing for granted at this point. What makes me chuckle is that lately, people have been blatantly pointing out moments when I'm passing. They seem like they're expecting me to be so overly enthusiastic about it, yet I just can't help but react very casually. In some situations, it's almost irritating, particularly if they're pointing out my passing as it occurs right in front of me. I don't mind as much when people mention indirect moments of passing, since I wouldn't have known otherwise, but now that I pass more often than I don't, individual cases of passing seem so much smaller to me than others seem to expect.

[butterflydreams]

5 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

It's weird because I really see the difference if I compare photos of me from 2014 to now, but pre-T to now doesn't seem that different. Yet, somewhere in there is the line between passing and not. 

I want to come up with a term for this. Because I think it's a super common thing among trans people, I think a lot of us worry about it (god knows I do), and yet the consensus from 2nd or 3rd parties is one of disbelief. Even when the other people are trans people themselves. I know pretty much everyone I've seen who shows comparison photos...this weird thing happens where I just sort of see the whole thing backwards. Like, the old picture is them cross-dressing. And this is really how I see it...consistently. But when it comes to myself, I can't see it.

 

11 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

Still, it's kinda interesting that I can almost take passing for granted at this point. What makes me chuckle is that lately, people have been blatantly pointing out moments when I'm passing. They seem like they're expecting me to be so overly enthusiastic about it, yet I just can't help but react very casually. In some situations, it's almost irritating, particularly if they're pointing out my passing as it occurs right in front of me. I don't mind as much when people mention indirect moments of passing, since I wouldn't have known otherwise, but now that I pass more often than I don't, individual cases of passing seem so much smaller to me than others seem to expect.

Hehe, this is a super weird phase for sure. Where you're used to not passing, or you expect that you don't pass, but you actually do. So you have to tread this line, "do they know?" And suddenly you have to be a bit more conscious about what you say so as not to out yourself. You don't always get clear indications that you are passing. 99% of people just ignore other people pretty much. I've learned to look for indirect signs...and those...talk about a twilight zone few people will ever see. I swear, even with people who know all about what you are...I frequently find them doing things that plainly indicate some kind of subconscious awareness that you are who you are. I've mentioned this before, hugs, handshakes, how they talk to you...it's weird. That makes me think there's more to passing than just passing. And maybe passing is more of an internal "vibe" kind of thing. That's just a theory though. 

[Mezzo Forte]

@Hadley167, There really needs to be a term for that. It's weird too, because I have so much less dysphoria than before and I'm so hyper-aware of the changes as they happen, yet photos just don't convey the difference to me. Maybe it's because my photos are mostly of my face. Weight loss made a really dramatic difference in my face, making HRT's impact seem subtle in comparison. (The two combined though, yeah, even I can admit that it's obvious.)

 

Passing is especially weird to gauge when you don't spend a lot of time interacting with new people. I'm mostly around fellow musicians, and 99% of them knew me before I started transition, so the way they read me only says so much. The gendered social cues definitely happen though, as I know at least one casual friend who went from hugs to handshakes for saying bye to me. (Honestly, although it's an interesting indication of how people read me, I still prefer hugs.) I'm kinda awful at initiating touch though, so even pre-T, only so many people hugged me anyways. There seems to be an even stronger touch barrier now that I'm read as male though.

[butterflydreams]

6 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

There seems to be an even stronger touch barrier now that I'm read as male though.

1000% this. I thought it was because they are super religious, but all of the guys in my extended family would not hug me when I saw them at my grandmother's funeral. And that was a particularly weird experience, because I'd been living as female all the time for 6 months prior to that. So for one day, I flipped back, and it was shocking how pronounced the difference was. I'm so grateful that I've been able to have experiences like that (not that I had to cross dress though). Experiences few people will ever have. I think it helps make me a better, more compassionate person and I'm very thankful for that.

 

And at first I thought, "Well, maybe I should try to propagate this information. There might be all these guys out there who want hugs but can't get them or don't know how." But I realized that might not be the case. Sure that might've been how I felt, but I wasn't ever really a guy, so maybe that's not representative of how guys feel generally.

 

I can't even believe how perfectly mirrored your experience is to mine, @Mezzo Forte. Literally, even long time friends, hell even coworkers, far, far, far more preferential to hugs with me than they used to be. And despite the fact that I always preferred hugs and would try (and get denied) anyway. 

 

Though I have to say...

Spoiler

...while I love hugs, these days I cringe a little bit at the thought, especially with new people. When I met up with my friend last year (before I was really passing) she gave me the same hug she always did and...holy crap ouch! To people I'm close with, I mention it, because it seriously does hurt like hell. You can hug me, just don't waffle-iron my chest to yours. *shudder* just thinking about it hurts. When my dad hugged me goodbye at the funeral? I had to play it off that he just squeezed me too hard. Though I've learned how to kind of lean in so as to help reduce the possibility of hurtful impact. I eagerly await the day when I can return to big hugs without worry  

 

[Mezzo Forte]

@Hadley167, It's amazing how much gender informs touch. I think I had some awareness of that fact even before transition, because I remember being so perplexed seeing stuff like how my brother hug his daughter, but give his son high-fives instead. I don't really need a lot of touch in my daily life, but I do get a little touch-starved from time to time when I'm away from my family and childhood friends, so the stronger touch barrier is a little unsettling. 

 

Honestly, some people just don't know the right way to hug others. Because of my height, people would sometimes ram one of their shoulders into my neck when they'd hug me, and the front of my neck is an absolute "do not touch" zone for me, because any pressure there registers as strangling. I don't remember having issues similar to yours, but I also dodged some genetic bullets in that department.  (I think I do lean into hugs like you've described. My family used to laugh because even when I'd date people, we'd hug/dance with our hips apart. That was probably an ace thing to some extent.) I've certainly heard women mention stuff similar to what you described though.

[butterflydreams]

10 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

@Hadley167, It's amazing how much gender informs touch. I think I had some awareness of that fact even before transition, because I remember being so perplexed seeing stuff like how my brother hug his daughter, but give his son high-fives instead. I don't really need a lot of touch in my daily life, but I do get a little touch-starved from time to time when I'm away from my family and childhood friends, so the stronger touch barrier is a little unsettling. 

Well, if you figure out how to beat it, let me know. I still tend to be pretty touch-starved on average  The only advice I can give is to be cool about it. Just be the friendliest person you can be. I had a lot of male friends who would get really homophobic about it. "Dude, don't hug me, that's gay." I wish I was kidding. They didn't even hate gay people generally. It was just that one thing. I would kind of put on a faux-macho kind of thing, "come on man, hug. that. shit. out." And that would sometimes work. Having one or two other friends who saw it for the BS it was helped too. Though even then, it's not quite the loving, heart-felt hug you're probably looking for.

 

So after so many years of that, yeah, it's a little strange how different it is. It's cool, because I feel so natural now, but it still takes me by surprise. I had an employee leaving at work last week. I went to give him a handshake, and he opened his arms for a hug. And now that I think about it, guy-guy hugs are pretty much like guy-guy handshakes. Very firm. Not so much that it hurts, just firm. I actually kind of miss it in a way. When people hug or shake my hand nowadays, I feel like I'm made of glass crystal or something. So much more gentle! It's crazy!

[Mezzo Forte]

@Hadley167, I had a hard enough time cracking the barrier when people thought I was a woman.  I'm much better at reciprocating touch than I am initiating it, so the only trick I know is to meet touchy people. (The most I've done to initiate touch in recent memory was that I offered to massage a close friend's back to help ease some of the pain he was dealing with. He definitely appreciated it, but I can't say that it made our friendship any more tactile though.) Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up with even more of a touch barrier with men if they read me as gay. I actually don't know how people read me orientation-wise, but I feel like some of my more effeminate traits might set off the occasional gaydar. (I kinda prefer to hang out with people who don't buy into the machismo BS anyways.)

 

You know, my dad still critiques me for my handshake, partially because it's too firm. I think I wanted to actively defy the feminine handshake stereotypes. I definitely know some women who similarly made a big deal out of developing a good handshake because of those stereotypes. People tended to treat me like glass when it came to equipment moves in percussion, and that was a huge peeve of mine. Even though I'm largely around the same people, that issue basically disappeared when I came out. People are definitely much less likely to offer to help me if I'm struggling with anything though, so I guess that's the trade-off. 

[butterflydreams]

12 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

You know, my dad still critiques me for my handshake, partially because it's too firm.

Heh, hopefully he'll come around to accepting you have a great "company man's" handshake

 

Sorry to sidetrack this, but I just got an email from my mom, and I'm freaking out.

Spoiler

I know I shouldn't have read it, but I get concerned when I see emails with subjects like that. Maybe something happened? I have to read it. Unfortunately no. I should've seen this coming. She was way too civil with me when I visited last weekend. I am so, so, so, so tired of this abuse. And it is abuse. It's just this whole tirade. She's not at all comfortable with me "like this". She's worried that I'm going to lose my job. Despite the fact that I specifically sent her photos of me at work with coworkers. If they wanted to fire me, they would've by now. But actually, at the management meeting last week, the joke was, "oh boy, put an ankle bracelet on Hadley, we can have her leaving." Because I do amazing work, I work hard, and I'm beyond reliable. But it's like mist to my mom...like it isn't even there. She's afraid I'll never have a family, and she cries that I'll never know what it's like to be loved by a child I've fathered.

 

It goes on and on and on like this. What I hate most is that in some weird way, she knows exactly where to poke at me to hurt the most. Actually, mom, I would like to have a child. More than anything. But you wouldn't know that, because you never asked. And if you did, I'm sure you wouldn't care that I can't father a child. Oh I've got the technical parts, but to ask me to use them in that way, for that purpose is horrifying.

 

And on and on. And at the end, the coup de grâce... "did you know having sex with someone can help you relax? This WON'T happen if you have sex with a guy. There would be fewer single people if they knew how to have satisfying sex."

 

What the actual ever-loving fuck?!!!!

 

This makes me feel like a disgusting freak. Like I am everything she says I am.

 

[Autumn Sunrise]

Omg, Hadley - that's appalling, and you're right - it is abuse, whether she realises it or not. But whatever she says, you are absolutely not a freak, or disgusting: you're a beautiful and courageous young woman, and the saddest thing of all of that your mother is unable to see you as you really are, and be proud of you. I know there's not much I can say right now to help you, but I hope that one day you'll have the chance to welcome a child into your home and have the joy of being called "Mom". But right now please try to take comfort in the knowledge that you have many loving and supportive friends. 

*huge hugs*

[KRae]

1 hour ago, Mezzo Forte said:

People tended to treat me like glass when it came to equipment moves in percussion, and that was a huge peeve of mine. 

This happened to me all the time when I was in percussion. One day, I walked in at the appointed time to start loading the U-Haul for tour, and the moment the director saw me, he asked me to tape a pair of sticks for him. Yes, it needed to be done, but that could have been done in the van. Once we would get to a location, I'd bring one load in and then usually would be assigned to set up the folding chairs. To be fair, I have almost no upper body strength, and everyone knew it. I'd still rather be treated like the rest of the group, thanks.

 

@Hadley167 That's awful. No one should treat you like that - ever. I know I'm kind of in and out of the forum, but I'm always encouraged by how strong you are every time I come in here. I don't know if that's helpful at all. I hope it is. *hugs*

[daveb]

@Hadley167, I agree with @Autumn Sunrise and her words of wisdom. Your mother's fears are a reflection of who she is, not of who you are. You are awesome and your mother's fears are unfounded. And it's very sad that she is missing out on an awesome daughter. But that's in her court, not yours. Her abuse is also her demon, not a reflection of you. I hope you can find some comfort in other ways with the many other people who support you and love you and care about you.

[Dodecahedron314]

Aw, Hads  What your mom did is just so not okay on any level in existence, and that's putting it painfully mildly. Group hugs and infinite cake and absolutely anything else this raggedy band of Internet denizens can do to make it stop hurting--you're one of the best, strongest people I know, IRL or online, and you don't deserve any of this. You're not a freak, you're an amazing woman whom I can only hope to be even half as awesome as when I'm a Real Adult. 

[Mezzo Forte]

@Hadley167, I'm so sorry that your mom keeps trying to tear you down. From what you're saying, it doesn't seem like she's really listening to you at all, so her perception of the situation is warped beyond recognizability. Your mom seems like she reserves the worst of what she has to say for her emails, which gives off the impression that they're either calculated, things she can't say to your face, or some mix of the two. What she's saying is definitely abuse; the entire message seems intended just to hurt you, and it does not reflect your reality at all.

 

You are an amazing woman, Hadley, so unique in your diverse interests and so attuned to the thoughts and feelings of others. Seriously, your emotional intelligence (as well as your intelligence in general) blows me away. If your mom thinks you're a freak, then we live in a pretty freaky world.

[butterflydreams]

Thank you so much for all your kind words, friends <3. The tears are happy, I promise. I'm doing ok today. I guess I just need to keep on keepin' on.

[ChillaKilla]

So... I have a date for my big public reveal now. As of March 25th, 2017, I will no longer be in hiding. And for better or for worse, whatever happens that day is going to change my life beyond imagining. It's been so long (or at least feels like it), but I'm more than ready to let the old me go and finally live as authentically as I can. I never would've made it this far without any of you, and I just want to thank everybody in this thread for being supportive, giving advice, and being like an online family. With HRT coming up, my (immediate) family being supportive, and now a concrete day for my haircut/name/pronoun change (I'm doing it at my senior prom), I'm getting emotional, honestly. It's coming up fast but I know I can do this. Just ~3 more months. Just ~3 more months...

[butterflydreams]

@ChillaKilla, that is amazing! Congrats!   I'm kind of a planner myself, so I can't help but smile at how you have everything so planned out. We'll all be pulling for you in the next three months for sure. You should come up with some kind of countdown. That always seems to make waiting go a little faster, or at least makes it more fun.

 

I can even keep the good-news-train rolling. I updated my SSA record today. Apparently they've had my birthday wrong (May instead of June) my whole life. The guy had no idea how the IRS hasn't caught on yet. I was worried that my doctor's letter wasn't quite what ssa.gov suggested. But the interaction was too hilarious:

 

H: Hi, I need to change my name on my social security record.

SS staff: Ok, no problem. I'll need your court order, birth certificate and driver's license.

H: <hands over stuff, voice shaking> I'd also like to update the gender marker.

SS staff: Yup. We can do that.

 

Everything squares away. I ask, "Do you need a letter from my doctor?" He responds, "Nope. You're all set. Here's the new info we're putting into your record, (Hadley LastName, Sex: F), you'll get a new card in a week or so."

 

I told my friend afterwards, this is like the first instance of being able to use the "Thanks, Obama..." non-sarcastically. I'm going to make a run at the DMV probably next Tuesday, with or without the physical card. Presumably they're just going to check with the online database anyway. Seeing "Sex: F" on the printout though. I almost cried.

[Starbogen]

Wow, congrats guys!! I'm so jealous X'D 

But seriously it's awesome that you have made these things happen and it's paying off for you. I hope to get there someday too.

For now, all I have is that I pass pretty well for not being on hormones, my whatsapp and one of my emails says my name, and I might be making some more progress over my selfdoubtiness. 

 

I was thinking about it the other night and I figured I still have no idea what gender is or what I am but at the end of the day something I do know and have always known is what I like. And everything about what I like and want for myself says, and has always said, "not-girl" and the older I got the more it also said "guy". So, my name is Adrian, I'm just gonna go ahead and keep calling myself a guy because this is what makes the most sense, and even when I get all selfdoubty and ask myself "Oh can I really be a man? Can I fully be a man? Am I doing the right thing?" I ask it while knowing that either way I definitely don't want to go back to what things were before.

[Autumn Sunrise]

@Liebelit That's a great name - Adrian - and I hope it will bring in better times and a happier future for you 

 

Congrats, @Hadley167 I'm glad it turned out to be so . . . matter-of-fact . . . go, girl!

[Autumn Sunrise]

12 hours ago, ChillaKilla said:

So... I have a date for my big public reveal now. As of March 25th, 2017, I will no longer be in hiding. And for better or for worse, whatever happens that day is going to change my life beyond imagining. It's been so long (or at least feels like it), but I'm more than ready to let the old me go and finally live as authentically as I can. I never would've made it this far without any of you, and I just want to thank everybody in this thread for being supportive, giving advice, and being like an online family. With HRT coming up, my (immediate) family being supportive, and now a concrete day for my haircut/name/pronoun change (I'm doing it at my senior prom), I'm getting emotional, honestly. It's coming up fast but I know I can do this. Just ~3 more months. Just ~3 more months...

 

@ChillaKilla That's great news! And I'm sure it will be "for better": I know you can do it, and you have all the "TransWhatevers" behind you 

[butterflydreams]

On 12/6/2016 at 8:36 PM, Liebelit said:

Can I fully be a man? Am I doing the right thing?" I ask it while knowing that either way I definitely don't want to go back to what things were before.

I think you're answering your own question there. I know I reached a similar point. It's ok if you're unsure about the future, everyone is. It's the future and no one can see into it. But when you know you don't want to go back to the past, that's important. Hold on to that!

 

That stupid gremlin started saying awful things to me on my commute this morning. I won't repeat them here. But in the car, by myself, I actually said out loud, "omg, shut the fuck up!" There's really no other purpose to the voice other than to make me feel shitty about myself. I actually pictured the gremlin in my head getting scared and retreating a bit. Like it didn't ever expect me to stand up to it like that. Hopefully I can continue standing up to it.

[ChillaKilla]

I want Heart back... Where are they?!

[butterflydreams]

http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF

 

Found this. It just came out!

 

Highlights for me included...

- seeing trans men and women showing up in roughly equal percentages (about 1/3 each I think). So there goes that idea that trans women are the only trans people around.

- 1/10 of all trans people identify as asexual

- Surprising to me...only between 1 in 4 trans men and 1 in 5 trans women identify as heterosexual. That was a pervasive belief I had when I was much younger as to why I couldn't possibly be trans, I liked girls! (or so I thought at the time).

- Educational attainment trends higher than the population average...very interesting.

- Numbers for partners ending relationships solely because of trans status seems lower in younger populations, but sadly (for me anyway) the rate of ended relationships for trans women is twice that (18%) to that of trans men (9%).

- An overall rate of 50% (higher for older demographics) of some family rejection is too high. And experienced by 63% of trans women and 55% of trans men. Well, I guess I'm not alone...

- 88% of courts granted name changes. Nice!

- The ID/Name section is hard to summarize, but fascinating. The overall rates seem pretty low, with cost being a big factor (I hear that). Definitely dig through that section.

- Driver's licenses seem to be the most changed (gender) IDs in the mix, with 90% being changed. It's good to see shifts in those laws helping to make that better.

- 55% denial from insurance on surgeries, and 25% denial from insurance for HRT is awful and unacceptable IMO.

- Nearly 1 in 5 people encountered a professional trying to stop them from being trans...WTF?! Way too high!

- The HIV rate for trans women is twice the average and more than 11x greater than trans men. What is going on here?! This scares me

- Overall unemployment is 3x the national average. Ugh...

- Income definitely appears to be stunted as a result of being trans.

- Only 13% lost a job for being trans. Too high, but honestly not as high as I thought.

- Rates of various violence and harassment are discouragingly high.

- 54% experienced IPV, that's crazy high...geez  Including stuff like being told they aren't a "real man" or "real woman".

- Nearly 1 in 10 denied access to a restroom in the past year? Unacceptable!

- 1 in 4 reported ANY problem in a restroom in the past year.

- And one chart where trans men definitely take the lead (sadly) 75% of trans men reported avoiding restrooms compared to only 53% of trans women.

 

So yeah...overall very interesting read. Definitely worth checking out. Some encouraging stuff for sure, but sad that so many old problems are still hanging on. I was intrigued by the seemingly (to me) low rates of family rejection in certain categories. I almost want to send the survey to my mom and be like, "do you really want to be in this small minority of people who don't accept their trans family members?"

[ChillaKilla]

@Hadley167 I was pleasantly surprised to see NB people making up an equal portion as trans men and women! Go us  

 

[butterflydreams]

3 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

@Hadley167 I was pleasantly surprised to see NB people making up an equal portion as trans men and women! Go us  

 

Yeah, I left it out of the personal highlights for me just because I was focused on the stuff that was closer to my home and I don't have as much insight on the NB data, but I definitely enjoyed seeing the nonbinary responses contextualized among the general trans results. That was definitely fascinating and very useful I think. I would hope it helps make a rational case for nonbinary being a thing to the "only two genders" crowd. And it was really clearly demonstrated (to me anyway) that they are mixed right in with trans problems in general. So even if you had some kind of beef with nonbinary people, they're coming along with us one way or another it seems. I certainly can't argue with that.

[Ix Phoen]

2 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

The HIV rate for trans women is twice the average and more than 11x greater than trans men. What is going on here?!

My theory is that HIV is higher among those who fear that this will be their "only chance" for a relationship. They tend to let partners skip the safety check in the name of finally having someone to love. (I would imagine, if there are statistics for this, that cis partners in dependent/manipulative/abusive relationships also tend to have very high instances of HIV, etc.)