249 replies to this topic

[standup]

Hello, and welcome to the the new discussion thread for an Asexual Flag. (Old thread: here, Voting: here),
Asexuality - The Great Flag Debate - Survey about the asexuality flag - Courtesy of Spiralling Snowy from the PT.
Project Team email address!

The goal of this thread is to collect opinions based on what the asexual flag should actually look like. (ie, what is important to have in an ace pride flag.) We are trying to decide things like what symbols to use, what colors are best, and make other small decisions before re-starting the voting process. This thread is also open to any new flag submissions people come up with, but there are a few guidelines that we would prefer these new flags to adhere to. If you are viewing this thread as someone who is not a member of AVEN, feel free to create an account or ask a friend to post your idea.

This flag is not meant to be officially official and is merely a flag that the community can choose to use if they so wish.

We are currently working on spreading the word about a flag to non-English speaking communities. If you are fluent, or near-fluent, in another language, we would very much appreciate any assistance you could provide in getting the message out there about this project!

Discussion Topics:
- What symbols do we want to use? (Ace triangle, ring, spade, etc?)
- Establishing definitions of current symbols
- What specific types of flags does the community prefer?

Submission Guidelines:
- Stay away from flags that look like they may belong to a country. (Ex. No tricolor vertical stripes)
- Stay away from gradients.
- Suggested color scheme: white, grey, black, purple
- Keep the flags relatively simple (not busy with images/symbols)

Starting with this thread, I will no longer be accepting any flags that don't meet the above guidelines. This is in order to keep the next polling process simpler, with more refined designs. Spend time on your submission.

Thread End Date:
Saturday, July 24th

The Plan:
On Sunday, July 11, I will be recording the results from the first round of flag voting. After that, voting will be temporarily put on hold until we can gather more submissions and input from more people, including those that are not active on AVEN or who speak other languages.

Voting will re-commence on Sunday, July 25th as a continuation of the first round with the addition of recent submissions. A week will be assigned for each voting round. The current number of rounds is currently unknown, as I'm not sure how many submissions will be added, but ideally there should only be two more.

Translation Volunteers:
Pugnacioun - Spanish (post)
you*hear*but*do*you*listen - Korean
padbatient - Polish (post)
RaZ - French


Spreading the Word: (thanks Pugnacioun and bristrek )
Topic on the A-sylum
Topic on Apositive
Discussion on Pugnacioun's blog
Topic on LiveJournal
Topic on Dreamwidth
Post on fuckyeahaces
Livejournal Post 2.0
Dreamwidth Post 2.0
Demisexual LJ Post
DeviantART Blog Post

If you know of any Asexual communities that are not listed above, please spread the news and give me a link to where your post is (even if it's not in English!)

Please use this thread to discuss anything and everything about the future Asexual Flag. As important points are made, I will be sure to include them in this main post. Get creative!

Edited by standup, 13 July 2010 - 08:16 PM.
added project team email, and survey about flag.

[Pandoren]

I think of all the previous submissions I preferred the one marked 1A- the four horizonal stripes black, grey, white, purple. I wasn't sure at first but it grew on me. I thought, as a flag, it was fairly inoffensive. I'm not terribly enthusiastic about having a symbol on a flag, I didn't really like it that I've seen so far (and besides, I still see the AVEN triangle as solely a symbol of AVEN and not asexuality in general, and using the Ace of Spades somehow feels like "stealing" a symbol), but I guess if a design was good enough and it fit in, I might be won round. I'd prefer, as with the original design that I mentioned, that each line be the same size, showing equality between all four. I like the four colours proposed because of the symbolism we've given to them (black = absence of colour = asexuality- absense of sexual attraction, grey = grey-A, white = sexual allies (as the opposite of black and in the gradient of the triangle representing the Kinsey Scale) and purple = community (even if it's the colour of AVEN, it still has meaning as community... it is a colour that fits and has reason, not like picking a colour out of thin air). I like the inclusion of purple as well because I don't want a monochrome flag- although it has meaning, it's awfully dark and funereal, and I don't think that's good as a message.

(Again, sorry about the Confederate flag, I genuinely didn't mean to )

~ Edit, there was a site at one point called Asexual Lesbians... Although I think that was populated mainly by AVENites... and wasn't very active. I don't know if it's still up, haven't been there for months.

[asexual cake]

You're very welcome

I think of all the previous submissions I preferred the one marked 1A- the four horizonal stripes black, grey, white, purple. I wasn't sure at first but it grew on me. I thought, as a flag, it was fairly inoffensive. I'm not terribly enthusiastic about having a symbol on a flag, I didn't really like it that I've seen so far (and besides, I still see the AVEN triangle as solely a symbol of AVEN and not asexuality in general, and using the Ace of Spades somehow feels like "stealing" a symbol), but I guess if a design was good enough and it fit in, I might be won round. I'd prefer, as with the original design that I mentioned, that each line be the same size, showing equality between all four. I like the four colours proposed because of the symbolism we've given to them (black = absence of colour = asexuality- absense of sexual attraction, grey = grey-A, white = sexual allies (as the opposite of black and in the gradient of the triangle representing the Kinsey Scale) and purple = community (even if it's the colour of AVEN, it still has meaning as community... it is a colour that fits and has reason, not like picking a colour out of thin air). I like the inclusion of purple as well because I don't want a monochrome flag- although it has meaning, it's awfully dark and funereal, and I don't think that's good as a message.

(Again, sorry about the Confederate flag, I genuinely didn't mean to )

I agree with the inclusion of purple. Even if it's AVEN-centric, it makes sense when considering how the flags (as proposed) would be primarily used, which is at pride events, where purple has already (from what I've seen in pictures, anyway) been established as the colour representing the asexual contingents of parades and things.

Additionally, if we're to use a triangle, I think we should try for, if not one with a true gradient, then one with the white-grey-black idea, rather than just white and black, since, even if it's unintentional and entirely the result of less-than-pure minds, the white/black triangle is reminiscent to a number of people of the lower part of the female torso, which is ... less than ideal.

[Lirael1]

You're very welcome

I think of all the previous submissions I preferred the one marked 1A- the four horizonal stripes black, grey, white, purple. I wasn't sure at first but it grew on me. I thought, as a flag, it was fairly inoffensive. I'm not terribly enthusiastic about having a symbol on a flag, I didn't really like it that I've seen so far (and besides, I still see the AVEN triangle as solely a symbol of AVEN and not asexuality in general, and using the Ace of Spades somehow feels like "stealing" a symbol), but I guess if a design was good enough and it fit in, I might be won round. I'd prefer, as with the original design that I mentioned, that each line be the same size, showing equality between all four. I like the four colours proposed because of the symbolism we've given to them (black = absence of colour = asexuality- absense of sexual attraction, grey = grey-A, white = sexual allies (as the opposite of black and in the gradient of the triangle representing the Kinsey Scale) and purple = community (even if it's the colour of AVEN, it still has meaning as community... it is a colour that fits and has reason, not like picking a colour out of thin air). I like the inclusion of purple as well because I don't want a monochrome flag- although it has meaning, it's awfully dark and funereal, and I don't think that's good as a message.

(Again, sorry about the Confederate flag, I genuinely didn't mean to )

I agree with the inclusion of purple. Even if it's AVEN-centric, it makes sense when considering how the flags (as proposed) would be primarily used, which is at pride events, where purple has already (from what I've seen in pictures, anyway) been established as the colour representing the asexual contingents of parades and things.

Additionally, if we're to use a triangle, I think we should try for, if not one with a true gradient, then one with the white-grey-black idea, rather than just white and black, since, even if it's unintentional and entirely the result of less-than-pure minds, the white/black triangle is reminiscent to a number of people of the lower part of the female torso, which is ... less than ideal.

I, too, like the four colors proposed in the previous thread and the symbolism we've given to them. I agree with the inclusion of purple for all of the reasons discussed above. Also, as I've mentioned in another thread, if we're going to include white and black then I feel strongly that we should also include grey, in order to be inclusive of demis and grey-a's.

I would rather not have a flag with symbols on it, and in any case I think it might be hard to find a symbol that we can all agree on. I am not a huge fan of the black ring thing, and I am even less a fan of the "ace of spades" (if I'm going to use an ace as a symbol, I personally would use the ace of hearts rather than spades). I'm okay with the triangle as a symbol, but I only like the version that has a gradient - not the one with a clearly defined black area and white area. This is, again, because of demi and grey-a inclusivity. Since the guidelines specify no gradients, I guess that rules out the triangle for me too.

My very strong preference is for a flag with horizontal colored stripes, both because of its simplicity and so that our flag will be visually similar to other orientations' pride flags. Of all the designs proposed so far, the one with the horizontal black, grey, white, and purple stripes ("a" in the first group on the poll) is far and away my favorite. I prefer this design to the point where I'm ready to declare it my personal version of the asexual flag right this minute.

[Pandoren]

The thing about the ace of hearts is that if you see it, it's just a heart. It won't be readily identified by non-aces as an ace. A heart will have its own meaning as the symbol of love.

[Lirael1]

The thing about the ace of hearts is that if you see it, it's just a heart. It won't be readily identified by non-aces as an ace. A heart will have its own meaning as the symbol of love.

Right, and that's part of why I'm not a fan of using the ace (of any suit) as a symbol on our flag.

[Spoofmaster]

My favorite flag from the voting sheets was 1N. If we're going to use any symbol on the flag rather than just an arrangement of stripes, I'd prefer that we use the AVEN triangle--not with a true gradient, but with one or two bars of gray between the white and the black (I have never been a fan of the version of the symbol with the hard line between the two, as it would seem to bely the meaning behind the symbol as a whole).

If we're concerned about the triangle being a symbol of only AVEN rather than asexuality as a whole, may I suggest that we incorporate that kind of gradient in another form? I've just had an idea for a flag and I'll try to knock a preview together real quick to show you guys the basic idea (not too bothered if someone improves on it later). My thought is that gray-A's have become more widely known and represented in the community, so sticking with the idea of a continuum from black (asexual) to white (sexual) is logical. Keeping the bars arranged in a gradient would lend the arrangement meaning, which I know some people complained was lacking in some of the original designs.

Another flag that appeals to me on further review is 2F--three bars arranged in a gradient, bordered by purple bars, but diagonally across the flag. It makes sense to me because it's reminiscent of the simple horizontal bars of the rainbow flag while being sort of skewed to one side to show that we're something different; something not necessarily always included in the rainbow flag depending on who you ask (on both sides).

EDIT: A quick and dirty version:



It could have a second gray stripe in the middle, too, if we want it to look more gradual, and we could do it with or without the black border (it just looked tidier to me). I just figured this got the idea of the gradient across (might work better with more than one gray stripe) while including purple as a sort of all-inclusive color running down the edge of the entire continuum.

[you*hear*but*do*you*listen]

No shaded triangle? Gods, that took me hours to get right in PhotoShop. -cries- Oh well...I'll have to redo some of my flags, then. I'll try to make them not suck this time.

[bristrek]

No shaded triangle? Gods, that took me hours to get right in PhotoShop. -cries- Oh well...I'll have to redo some of my flags, then. I'll try to make them not suck this time.

The trick is to work in colour blocks, something that can easily be made by sticking strips of coloured cloth together, as it were.


Your ideas weren't bad, per se, but they were very very busy which I know is easy to do when you're eager. What you have to do is heavily self edit and not have a shape or design in there for no reason at all or something that's not reflecting what else you've seen in the community.







As to what symbols to use.... personally I'm heavily against using symbols on flags because it can become very tacky very easily. A spade as others have pointed out in other topics has other associations (and not just in card games) like war and death so though to us it doesn't mean that it's something we might want to use. I think the best bet is either a ring because a circle is a easy, simple shape or a triangle in some form. But some both on AVEN and off it view it as more an AVEN thing than an asexuality in general thing (though some in both 'groups' view it as a general asexual thing) but it's something I'll bring up on Dreamwidth etc when I get onto there. If it's not up already.

A triangle is also pretty easy and simple to include. Don't think they look as good on flags, mot of the time, as circles but that's a personal taste thing.




I also agree with Acer that 1A from the previous topic is my fave flag submission, and something along those lines would be my vote. Doesn't have to be same colour order or proportions but simple enough horizontal bars not only fit in with the other flags of groups related to sexual minorities and Pride type groups (which includes the trans movement) and thus helps us fit in better.... but I think look better with the number of colours we have.



And now I'll go make a post on DW and LJ if it isn't there already, and shall copy the text here cause uniformity on this is good. I'll include a link back here on them, and post a new link to them on here so you can modify the outgoing links. This does warrant a new post on them as it's a different process now. I suggest each of us go over there and check on their conversations if we can, invite them to do the same and come over here to look up. And for all of us to talk in as many areas as we've got accounts.





ETA: Tip for getting the shaded triangle done fast in photoshop. Use the polygon tool to create a triangle and fill it with white (through right clicking and then fill path). Create a new layer and then change the fill tool to the gradient tool from black -> transparent, set the layer into a clipping mask via Ctrl+Alt+G (Win) / Command+Option+G (Mac). Then fill that layer with the gradient. Voila, asexual triangle! Only takes a few minutes and means you don't have to go deleting the gradient from outside the triangle or some such and also makes fiddling with the gradient easier.

[standup]

They didn't suck. This is a learning process for a reason!

I like the idea of a purple stripe along the side to show how the "thread of community" can run through all degrees of asexuality. And I think a lot of the negativity that comes from using a triangle is that it's associated with the holocaust. I'm not sure how people view it, but that's one perspective to keep in mind.

[Sciatrix]

Uh--you*hear, you can do gradiated triangles in about five minutes in MS Word using the insert-pictures function. Heads up for the future?

My personal preference is strongly for the four horizontal bars, so IA. I think it's nicely simple, translates effectively to other, smaller tokens of asexuality, and doesn't appear to have strong connections to another flag. It's also pretty good at just keeping the colors without being too busy.

I think that we should have only one grey stripe if we're doing stripes, however. Adding two sends some very strange symbolic messages--are there multiple types of grey-As? Are some people less grey than others, or more? It's divisive. So for that reason I don't particularly like attempts to "gradient" things on the flag with multiple grey shades. For that you need a real gradient. Also, seconding Pugnacion's desire to avoid a black-and-white triangle so much. I don't know why it hits that association with me, but it does, and I would really rather not be suppressing the urge to snigger whenever I look at our flag. If we ever have one.

(I don't actually like the one I posted originally as a flag--but damn, I'd like it as a button or something. I probably won't make a non-gradient version, but if someone did like it on its own feel free to steal it.)

[the green jacket]

I like 1A in the first round for all the above listed reasons. I also think the flag should be similar to the flags of the other orientations. I saw some flags listed that had more than one shade of gray. I think it is unnesseary, and it just makes the flag busy. keeping it 4 colors will make it easy to recreate (knitted hats...)
I already jumped the gun and painted a button with the 1A color scheme.

[asexual cake]

My personal preference is strongly for the four horizontal bars, so IA. I think it's nicely simple, translates effectively to other, smaller tokens of asexuality, and doesn't appear to have strong connections to another flag. It's also pretty good at just keeping the colors without being too busy.

I like 1A a great deal for largely these reasons.
And, on smaller tokens, symbols could be added, even if they weren't on the flags - buttons, for example. A button with the four bars and a triangle would probably look better than a large flag with four bars and a triangle, ...but that could just be me.

[bristrek]

1 - I also agree there should only be one grey bar and it looks a bit odd and represents what exactly if we have two.

2 - Copy of this on LJ here and copy on Dreamwidth here.

[standup]

Thanks for doing that, bristrek! I added the links to the top post.

Right now I'm trying to add posts to AVENde and AVENfr (German and French) - if anyone would like to do this for other languages, please do. All I'm going to write is "We are voting on some flag ideas here (post link) and we are discussing more ideas here (post link)." and ask if anyone speaks enough english to help me translate more.


But for some brainfood, these are some of AVEN's international symbols (just to keep in mind it's not all about OUR symbols).

[Pandoren]

Wouldn't it be better to ask them firstly if they are interested in a flag and secondly to submit their own designs? We can vote on a top number of flags from our proposed designs and they can vote for a top number of their designs (if they want a flag) and then we end up with a final poll to be distributed across all forums?

[asexual cake]

I can try AVENes (Spanish-language forum), if no one else wants to/can/is willing.

[bristrek]

Wouldn't it be better to ask them firstly if they are interested in a flag and secondly to submit their own designs? We can vote on a top number of flags from our proposed designs and they can vote for a top number of their designs (if they want a flag) and then we end up with a final poll to be distributed across all forums?

Oooo, that's a good idea. I mean, I think we should all have the same basics set down and discussion and so on but that is a rather good idea.

[daveb]

Starting with this thread, I will no longer be accepting any flags that don't meet the above guidelines.

You won't, won't you? That kind of statement gets my hackles up. You've decided we need or should have a flag for some reason that is not entirely clear to me. Then you start making polls and deadlines as if there is some huge rush to come up with the flag you seem to think we must have as soon as possible. You did come to your senses a bit and back off from your previous thread, but you still seem to be putting yourself up as the authoriy on this, with lots of rules.

I'm going to stay out of this now. I'd rather have no flag anyway.

[Pandoren]

It's just a little unfortunate that we are SO big and diverse now... for example, not all forums recognise the purple for a start, so something that has meaning for us doesn't have meaning for them, and if they have a similar colour, it has meaning for them and not for us. Finding something to please all English speaking AVENites is bad enough without trying to find something to please all global AVENites!

As well as that, the final poll might be tricky given that different forums have different populations. I don't know if English-speaking AVEN is the largest of them all or not, but that'd mean, presumably, that we'd be more inclined to vote for our own designs and effectively invalidate the smaller groups because they don't have enough manpower. So working out how that would work is another issue. Do we go by one asexual = one vote or work it out proportionately or what?

[standup]

Starting with this thread, I will no longer be accepting any flags that don't meet the above guidelines.

You won't, won't you? That kind of statement gets my hackles up. You've decided we need or should have a flag for some reason that is not entirely clear to me. Then you start making polls and deadlines as if there is some huge rush to come up with the flag you seem to think we must have as soon as possible. You did come to your senses a bit and back off from your previous thread, but you still seem to be putting yourself up as the authoriy on this, with lots of rules.

I'm going to stay out of this now. I'd rather have no flag anyway.

The guidelines were suggested to me by other people. That's the only reason I even added them. I'm sorry if it seems overbearing, and if anyone else would like to take the lead I'd gladly let them, but so far I've been the one making the polls and figured it made sense to use a first person pronoun. Sorry for stepping on your toes!

[standup]

It's just a little unfortunate that we are SO big and diverse now... for example, not all forums recognise the purple for a start, so something that has meaning for us doesn't have meaning for them, and if they have a similar colour, it has meaning for them and not for us. Finding something to please all English speaking AVENites is bad enough without trying to find something to please all global AVENites!

As well as that, the final poll might be tricky given that different forums have different populations. I don't know if English-speaking AVEN is the largest of them all or not, but that'd mean, presumably, that we'd be more inclined to vote for our own designs and effectively invalidate the smaller groups because they don't have enough manpower. So working out how that would work is another issue. Do we go by one asexual = one vote or work it out proportionately or what?

To be honest I have no idea how this would work. It's splendid idea, I just need help understanding how to make it functional.

[bristrek]

One asexual = one vote seems fairest to me.


Gives each person equal weight in the final tally. You could try adjusting it but then some people's votes are worth more than others and that isn't too good.

[Pandoren]

Okies

It also occurred to me, in passing, that the definition of asexuality appears (I've only been here a year so I don't know first hand) to have changed/been tightened/been refined since AVEN started and firstly do the other forums have the same definition of asexuality and do they recognise grey-asexuality? I know the definition might not be very important but if they don't recognise grey-a, they might not understand the symbolism of the grey area either.

[bristrek]

I'm not on Dreamwidth so I can't speak for them (though I expect it'll come up in the comments under 'Grey, wtf?' if they don't) but I know on LJ demi and greys have been talked about and mentioned before so I expect so.



Also, Acer? The link in your signature isn't working properly. Some of it pops up as a bit of a URL in tiny font and the big font doesn't link. Plus the URL bit doesn't lead to the start of the topic. Yay for it being easy to find the simple URL on forums *rolls eyes*

[Pandoren]

I was more thinking about other language AVENs.

I didn't link the big text, that's why. And the little link works for me even if you can't see it all.

[Pandoren]

Also, I was thinking symbolically about flag 1A... Someone else said before that purple and black next to each other clash and I'm inclined to agree, which means, given the gradient, that black and purple would be at opposite edges of the flag. Which leaves two options- purple at the top or purple at the bottom. The original design had it at the bottom. If we go by the AVEN triangle, that would put the sequence purple, white, grey, black- this could be said to be that community comes first, or that community is above sexuality. Alternatively, it could be black, grey, white, purple, and could be said to be Asexual + Grey + Sexual = Community. Either way...

(Yes, I know I'm jumping the gun talking a lot about 1A... I'm not saying this is The Flag but it seemed to be favoured in the old poll and sticks in my mind a lot to be subject to such thoughts!)

* When I say "community" I'm kinda using it synonymously with "unity" "solidarity" "we who have something in common" "peaceful coexistence", you get the idea.

[+Lee]

So should we re-submit our old ideas along with the new?

*Goes to work on other ideas and work on old ones*

PS: This is really great. I love how a lot of people are interested (Even the ones who don't want a flag) and are talking about this.

[Pandoren]

Yeah I do agree with some of what was said on the other thread, that's why I'm taking more care to think in depth about the flags. Of course I can't heal the rift between people who feel strongly that we should have a flag and people who feel strongly that we shouldn't, but I do think that it is somewhat of a compromise to some and respectful in other ways to those people that if a flag is chosen (against their wishes) then it is a flag that has been carefully and meticulously chosen and truely thought out than randomly picked in a popularity contest.

[SpirallingSnowy]

random idea...... If we make the asexy flag somethin that takes in all asexuals.... Then each asexual community can put symbols as they please. For example. The cz symbol of a paw is awesome but we dont use it, so mauybe they want that on their flag? Im saying we come up with the basic colour design in conjunction with all other avenites and asexuals, but leave symbols up to specific groups as to what best represents them?

I liked that one someone posted up there with purple vertical and white grey and black horizontal. And for an aven flag we could put a triangle in the top corner of the purple to represent we are part of thr asexual community, and the triangle represents aven.

This is what i ment about having a symbol for aven, but a flag for asexuality. And tthen people could feel part of a communioty but also part of asexuality.