Asexual Flag Voting (First Round)

[Asterion Orestes]

Tigerghost noted:

What happened to the ace of spades?

Yeah, I'd sort of expected to see it among the symbols. Not a problem--though I've always liked the Big Spade without any awareness of intended meaning. Maybe we could add it later to an accepted design, though I'd certainly not demand it.

[SlightlyMetaphysical]

I was linked to this via facebook and asked to come and register my opinions. Well, since I've been asked, I'll copy-paste what I've said elsewhere:

However- way too many asexual symbols. I’d be really happy with a flag that just has the AVEN triangle on it, as an asexual flag. That’s it, no new symbols created or memorised, no new colour schemes to try and work into a universally recognisable symbol for a group that’s almost unknown, most of whom probably won’t know it themselves (think how few asexuals know the black ring stuff, for example). Just take the existing symbol- and make it more fluttery.

If you want to be really technical, maybe a bi-coloured background behind it, that contrasts with the graduated two-tone triangle. Possibly even a rainbow worked in in the same way the Union Jack is in the Australian flag, to show that we’re in the Commonwealth of Queer. Exact design variable. But something that’s recognisably ace to an asexual, without you having to explain it to them. That’s a must. Why go to the effort of promoting our current brand icons just to switch to a new one?

Now I've seen the flags, I think a lot of them are very complicated, and very unmemorable. They'd be unmemorable even for a country, never mind such a tiny sexuality. Anyway, there's a bit of a flaw in the poll, in that it puts equal weight on your decisions in each category, when I really didn't like anything from the first two categories, so I just put 'don't want' for them.

Well, that's my AVENing done for the next 6 months. See you around.

[gashface]

I'm confused by the poll options, so here's what I suggest, A really simple flag with just a triangle on it, a bit like an A maybe but a bit abstract too. Not sure about colours. I think simple will work best, not sure about the placement either.

I'm a design student btw and will be happy to play around with a few mockups from the results or if people have ideas. (:

[geek-in-a-half-shell]

Dun voted.

[bristrek]

So basic summary seems to be this:

We stop this as it is now, and in conjunction with the Project Team set up some sort of discussion that runs alongside and with similar discussions on as many of the other asexual communities as we can contact and involve. From there set up specs of a flag ie. colours, what-not-to-do and so on. From there have a submission with clear cut deadline for submission. And from there a vote - though depending on how many submissions there are we should perhaps go with a similar vote system to the one in place now. But these submissions and votes will come in from the different communities we are able to contact.

Yes?

Which sounds like a good idea, a good compromise and I gather would allow some of those against this to contribute more fully in some way other than 'no flag no flag no flag!' as if any flag decided on would be forced on all asexuals to use.

That said, we can try by communicating with the other communities but we have to face that not only will we not be able to reach them all but we are the biggest one too. As has been pointed out, and not just on AVEN, previous flags for countries and movements have come about and stuck with a far less democratic and inclusive process than even teh 'first' attempt here. So we can try, and come to a conclusion and we need to be dedicated to getting a flag at the end of this and not stop part way through (a fear of which is why this has gone so fast) but we can't dismiss it because not every group of asexuals has had a say. We have to try, but we can't not do it because contacting and having input from every asexual from every community isn't posible.

And even if we have a few week long initial start up discussion about it so more people can be aware of it, theeeen, three weeks seems too long to me. It really does. But even if we go with long time for that, the stages after that don't have to be so long. Say a week each. Those interested will know it's there and know to check back and discuss and submit and a week is long enough I'd have thought.

And you have to keep in mind that places like LJ and DW don't work like forum do and if there's something I've noticed on them, conversations last a lot longer, time wise, on here than they do on there. And though you get heavy traffic comms with lots of commenting on posts the asexuality comms aren't one of them. So we have to be careful to we don't go on so long that we loose them, and I think those of us with accounts there have to try and keep it going. Big Bangs do it, but they've got all of a fandom behind them which, on LJ, is not a small thing. But there needs to be a midway.

[wulfgar83]

I cast my vote.

[Stitch]

I voted. I personally think it's a great idea - I mean, the entire LGBT is represented by a rainbow flag but I've always felt that asexuality hasn't ever been a part of that. It seems like the rainbow flag represents sexual interest and obviously, that doesn't work for most asexuals

That and, the LGBT flag represents the entire LGBT spectrum so a universal flag for the asexual community, whether you're heteroromantic, bi-romantic, homoromantic or aromantic sounds like a fantastic idea.

It'd be cool to have something for bumper stickers and to turn into a 5 x 3 flag at pride events.

[GirlDreamer]

I'm so glad to see that you're going to start over. I agree on a lot that's been said here. We need to take our time with this and not rush through it. In my opinion, the flag needs to be simple. Simple is often better. Most of the options in the current poll is, in my opinion, very poor. There's too much going on on most of it, and it seems like a lot of the flags are just randomly thrown together. The flag should be something simple, with a simple symbol on it. And we only need one symbol, not four of five. And that is something we should definitely decide before we start creating a flag. I detest the fact that several of the flags look like other country flags, I don't want an asexual symbol that looks exactly like my Norwegian flag, just with other colors.

[Shaggy]

I love the Energy that spills out in this Thread

Blessings upon standup, bristrek87 for this galvanising action :D

I reckon you should let the Poll Play out.

The Results, and the comments you attract will allow you to determine a "Next Best Step"!

Blessings too on those calling for expressions of wider, global input, e'en beyond the Shores of AVEN.

(The notion of a Rainbow insert denoting a modicum of solidarity with LGBT, would add (needed) delicious 'colour'.)

I voted 'For' a Flag, although Flags (like Money) can be used for both unity or division (simultaneously even :o ).

To those in need, Symbols can give comfort.

I don't have much personal regard for such Symbols (Hi AllyGG :) ).

{Like Hedley's 'Posse Member' in Blazing Saddles, "I don't need no stinking badges!"} :D

I wish you all the additional Energy (Patience & Good Will) you will require to see this through to fruition. :D

P.S. Thanks to Snowy for the FB 'Heads-Up'

P.P.S. ... "That's Hedy LaMarr :twisted: " ...

[Lirael1]

I voted. I personally think it's a great idea - I mean, the entire LGBT is represented by a rainbow flag but I've always felt that asexuality hasn't ever been a part of that. It seems like the rainbow flag represents sexual interest and obviously, that doesn't work for most asexuals

That and, the LGBT flag represents the entire LGBT spectrum so a universal flag for the asexual community, whether you're heteroromantic, bi-romantic, homoromantic or aromantic sounds like a fantastic idea.

It'd be cool to have something for bumper stickers and to turn into a 5 x 3 flag at pride events.

THIS.

[PiF]

Myself and michael have this discussion on a regular basis

I feel as not an entirely gay/queer group we should not align as a "group" with the lgbt....and many within the lgbt feel the same too

Michael feels that we should align..as some of the lgbt ...to be fair there are positives and negatives to both

so what about the flag...for me it is a yes..but done wrongly could leave a scar that would be hard to heal

for instance...i feel if we align too much with the lgbt then we...as asexuals..we just be what others say we are..gay

an alignment wrongly easier explained would be coke..diet coke..we maybe diet coke but people who do not know the difference will still call us coke

so a flag..which would be a corperate instantaniuosly recognised branding of asexuality..must also be seen outside of lgbt marches otherwise we will get

your a poof...no i'm asexual....you march with poofs don't ya?

A flag..would take us forward with a recognised brand with positives attached

as this is/maybe a three stage process..it maybe perfect timing to discuss it with dj on the next 10 years review?

[Pandoren]

I agree with that... While I can see Michael's PoV that, especially with the isolated nature of asexuality, local LGBT groups can be of great comfort to an asexual, I don't feel we are part of the group and some of the group don't feel we are either. Some asexuals do feel we should be a part, some don't. I don't think we should reference the LGBT or the rainbow flag on our own flag. Someone earlier mentioned doing that like the Australian flag and the Union flag on it- and someone else mentioned previously that Australians may feel this representation of their past outdated. We need a flag to stand alone, as ourselves, and not seem to rely on or be hanging on the coat tails of someone else. That flag may eventually wave alongside the others, sure.

[PiF]

for me the main drive is not that we have a flag..although I personally would like one

but if we do..we get it right

[bristrek]

I have to say this - I think any flag should be OUR flag. The flag of asexuals, all of us. All romantic orientation, all gender identities. But distinctly ours, not that of the gay movement, the bi movement or the trans movement but of the asexual movement. Yes there is some overlap in many ways between parts of our communities and parts of theirs, and yes there are larger similarities and I think we are related in several ways but...

But we're still us, our own distinct group. We should have our own flag that's us, not them. So that means that personally I don't think we should have the rainbow flag as a part of ours. Because though a related group it isn't our group and it does alienate some of our number.

That isn't to say I don't think we should ban horizontal bars of colour, cause I'm really rather fond of them but..... then again I suppose this is a discussion for the next stage or something.

I've got no problem with being mistaken as gay, I never have, even though I'm not. Or rather, I take no offense in being called gay. But it is for 'who are you guys? Oooo, you're so'n'so then' visibility reasons that a flag is pretty darn useful. And can we please not use the word 'poof' around here unless you're pretending to be a cop from 1973 driving alone in a Cortina with a Man-U supporting idiot who keeps ranting at himself.

The flag thing has been mentioned on that topic, but discussing it in full needs it's own topic. Especially if we're starting over in which case.... when is this stopping and how are we choosing 'leaders' on the matter?

[zoidberger]

Alright... I am leaning on the side of those who prefer not to have a flag.

One reason is that I feel it separates asexuality from society, where we try hard on AVEN to acknowledge that asexuality/sexuality is fluid and a continuum.

Another is that I couldn't find any symbols that I liked or made much of a lasting impression. If the community decided that we need a flag, something horribly simple is way more effective in my mind... say a white background with a graded AVEN symbol (maybe creating an AVEN flag specifically that might be adopted by asexuality as a whole some day, if it so chooses). I also see the reasoning behind there being separate flags for each group within asexuality. I feel like I wouldn't fully identify with any symbol, in being semi-demisexual. Heck I've even seen possible symbols for that group specifically.

I won't be bothered by a flag, I just most likely won't relate to it at all and in the end I do sort of think it creates divisions.

[PiF]

And can we please not use the word 'poof' around here unless you're pretending to be a cop from 1973 driving alone in a Cortina with a Man-U supporting idiot who keeps ranting at himself.

bri...read again in the context it was used...you might be more accurate second time around

[luiguiberto11]

I personally believe we should vote for th7 colors first, purple, grey and black are very like dead, lol, i'm asexual not an emo

[Y Lime]

I've been following the original flag thread and have already voted, but haven't felt the need to weigh in until now.

Personally, I think that the creation of an asexual flag is a great idea. Although I understand the various objections that some people have, I tend to agree with those who want a flag to use as a readily available, versatile symbol. I also feel like a flag could help with visibility.

I thought that the process was already reasonably fair and open (thanks, standup!), but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a bit more discussion about issues of flag design and meaning beforehand! (As long as the project doesn't die out, that is.) In terms of personal preference, I'm not a big fan of the triangle or any of the other symbol flags, but that's only one opinion and something that I'm sure we can discuss more after the poll has ended.

[+Lee]

I've been following the original flag thread and have already voted, but haven't felt the need to weigh in until now.

Personally, I think that the creation of an asexual flag is a great idea. Although I understand the various objections that some people have, I tend to agree with those who want a flag to use as a readily available, versatile symbol. I also feel like a flag could help with visibility.

I thought that the process was already reasonably fair and open (thanks, standup!), but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a bit more discussion about issues of flag design and meaning beforehand! (As long as the project doesn't die out, that is.) In terms of personal preference, I'm not a big fan of the triangle or any of the other symbol flags, but that's only one opinion and something that I'm sure we can discuss more after the poll has ended.

The bolded is the one reason I'm afraid about Standup stopping the poll and having more discussion. We already had discussion on the flags and informed people about it. I can see peoples point, but if we stop we might never go to the polls again.

The strips are probably the best design, most don't look like another country's flag, and it fits for the purpose of getting a flag.

I agree that simple is better for flags, but just the triangle on a white background? That's horrid! It's unmemorable, almost invisible, and depressing. The triangle on the rainbow flag would look better, though I disagree with that as well

I think we got the colors right:

Grey, for the demi's and grey-a's

Black for the asexuals

White for the top part of the triangle and for the hetero-sexuals (Though I can see why people want white out, I think it adds to the flags design.)

Purple for the community, the fact we have used purple a lot for visibility events, and also for the practical reason of not having a depressing funeral looking flag.

[asexual cake]

I thought that the process was already reasonably fair and open (thanks, standup!), but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a bit more discussion about issues of flag design and meaning beforehand! (As long as the project doesn't die out, that is.) In terms of personal preference, I'm not a big fan of the triangle or any of the other symbol flags, but that's only one opinion and something that I'm sure we can discuss more after the poll has ended.

The bolded is the one reason I'm afraid about Standup stopping the poll and having more discussion. We already had discussion on the flags and informed people about it. I can see peoples point, but if we stop we might never go to the polls again.

I think a bit more discussion - not extensive and over months and months until the project diminishes into merely a vague memory - would be good, especially since the word was only spread to the non-AVEN asexual community yesterday.

At the risk of being redundant, the other discussions are as follows:

Topic on the A-sylum

Topic on Apositive

Discussion on my blog

Topic on LiveJournal

Topic on Dreamwidth

Post on fuckyeahaces

[Dargon]

I must say I am pleased with the discussion now happening in this thread. This is what needed to happen before this project got off the ground, and if it continues like this, I am sure a much better conclusion will be met.

I think we got the colors right:

Grey, for the demi's and grey-a's

Black for the asexuals

White for the top part of the triangle and for the hetero-sexuals (Though I can see why people want white out, I think it adds to the flags design.)

Purple for the community, the fact we have used purple a lot for visibility events, and also for the practical reason of not having a depressing funeral looking flag.

I did with to clarify, the white represents sexuals, not specifically heterosexuals. The white to black gradient represents the continuum of sexuality to asexuality, gender preference is not included. In the AVEN triangle, gender preference is measured by the left/right position.

[standup]

For everyone who said "thanks" to me, it's absolutely no problem! Thank YOU for helping this get going. :)

I want people to understand that this poll isn't going to get completely scrapped. We'll save the winners and re-continue with elimination after we have a bit more time to discuss and include people off AVEN, and although some more flags will be added to the mix, these will not be thrown out. The more I think about it, the more optimistic I am about having a thread to discuss this more at length - mostly to allay people's fears and get this ironed out straight with no confusion. Communication is key!

I would like to make the new discussion thread as soon as possible, but I want to get the guidelines straight. If anyone would like to talk this out with me that'd be really appreciated. I have MSN, skype, and pretty much everything else - just let me know.

[Myron]

Some of these designs look cool. I like the simply white, gray, and black upside down triangle on a purble or white background :D.

[bristrek]

And can we please not use the word 'poof' around here unless you're pretending to be a cop from 1973 driving alone in a Cortina with a Man-U supporting idiot who keeps ranting at himself.

bri...read again in the context it was used...you might be more accurate second time around

Could be true but it didn't come of sounding like it in my head but... experience has taught me to be a bit more tetchy about it except when dealing with stories/characters based back when it was normal and accepted. So, sorry.

In any case.

You look through the various places and the main responces seem to fall into three groups: 1) Yay flag!/Good idea, I approve 2) I don't see the point/It isn't my thing/not that fond of the idea and wouldn't use one but I'm okay with those wanting one having one just please can it look good and 3) I actively want there to be no flag for asexuals at all.

Option three does, I have to say, seem to be the smallest especially when you pair up one and two against it. And any future polls should separate the groups into something like that cause these distinction are obvious and as is there's no middle ground for voters so votes are probably going into a spot that implies something that isn't, well, the middle ground. Bit late for it now, but for the next poll.

I also agree that the colours we have are fine. They do mean something as have been said before in this topic and the last several times. Even if we put purple up for debate, and it does seem the most debatable of the lot, it does bring some much needed colour into it and it IS the main colour that represents us to the public, the one that is most there during our Pride marches and so on. And it's not so bright it looks daft with the other black/white/grey and honestly - when trying to think of another colour that would mean something I struggle. But that's a debate for the next topic which should be started soon.

Startup or any Amods that feels so inclined, have you contacted the Project Team about this yet or do you want me to send them a bell?

ETA: I want to add that in no way, at all, does the white specifically refer to the heterosexuals over the other sexuals. I've not heard anyone say that before, where'd you get that idea from anyway Ellie? Nothing against you, er, not having a go at you. Just wondered where that came from.

[standup]

I have no idea how to contact the PT so feel free to do that.

[bristrek]

I have no idea how to contact the PT so feel free to do that.

I don't either, actually. I figure I'll find out who they are (I'm not sure) and let one of them know. Or something.

[standup]

Hah sounds good! I'm writing a draft for the new flag discussion thread. We should also keep an eye out for bilingual avenites.

[asexual cake]

Hah sounds good! I'm writing a draft for the new flag discussion thread. We should also keep an eye out for bilingual avenites.

I know limited Spanish and French, so if no one better volunteers to take the discussion to those forums I could try.

[bristrek]

I know very little German. About enough to say hello, who I am and then type the rest in English lol. But bilingual members here would be of massive use. Would hate to fall back on the 'everyone speaks English, even aliens!' trope.

[TSD]

So there's a couple of things I've noticed on this. Since when did this become official? I'm totally in favor of a simple, professional looking flag, but last time I checked we are just a bunch of AVENites discussing what kind of flag we would like. We can come to a conclusion here and still change it later.

I think the main idea of this poll should just be to get a general idea of what people want- triangles, stripes, diagonals, etc. That way when we start getting everyone else together we won't have to explain the significance of all 50+ flags. There is nothing "official" about this because lets face it, there is no "official" asexual community. People can use whatever flags they want, they just risk having everyone look at them strangely and not know what they are talking about (so, of course, a flag no one accepts would be useless. But the idea is that we can try all sorts of flags until one sticks).

And furthermore, most of the flags that are getting a lot of votes have symbolism behind them- its just that we didn't include all of it in this thread because there are too many flags here to explain them all, and to explain only some would be unfair. Most of it has been explained now (the colors, and the triangle), but also I would like to note that the horizontal stripes (the arrangement of the colors) is meant to be somewhat similar to the LGBT rainbow flag, but not the same. This can be interpreted as us being included with the LGBT but it doesn't have to be: the main idea is just that this is a flag for sexual orientation.

And finally, this may just be me being a political science nerd but we should put some serious consideration into how we vote for the final flag. If we do a run off with the top 3 of a category, that could bias us towards one design type. For example, if A, N and O win in the first category that leaves us with two triangle designs and one stripes. Those in favor of triangles could end up splitting their votes and losing, even if most people would prefer any triangle to the stripes. Of course, I think the triangle looks a little silly and can be mistaken for other things, but I'll worry about arguments for particular flags once we have the options narrowed down.

So anyways, I would suggest we leave this poll running so we know what people are interested in- but consider it as just an informal poll before we make any serious attempts to decide on a flag. For the final polling we will hopefully present arguments for and against each flag design and get as many people involved as we can.