Any older asexuals who have never been married?

[newgirl]

jay williams,

As an introvert, I LOVE in depth conversation with people and I can't stand chit chat. jay williams,I need people to stimulate my brain verbally.

So tell them: if they want to turn you on they have to tickle your brain.

Jay williams,

It's eariler said then done. :lol:

[morgane]

40 yo and never married . not easy to tell a person that you never want to have sex

so we all just put that high wall around us .

deep down we all feel a bit of loneliness , for me a companion that would never ever want sex , just a road companion in my travels and life will be just perfect . but asexuals are not labeled LOL

[LaMaestra]

I am 45 and then some! I have never married, never had a man or sex and have never desired to either. It just doesn't appeal to me.

[BKAce]

I'm in my late 30's. Never been married, engaged or lived with anyone. My parents have been married for over 40 years and growing up in that environment has filled me with a holy terror of ever being legally manacled to another human being. I live alone by choice and hope I can continue to afford to do so till the end of my days.

-Wicked

I totally relate to this. I also agree with "ChooseYourBattles" about marriage being an an antiquated institution (it's nice to read someone else saying that, YAY!)

Introspection time:

I don't know for sure because I've never experienced either, but if I had to choose between sex and a romantic relationship (my life would have to depend on it though, lol) and, unlike many people here it seems, I think I'd choose sex, simply because it takes less time and effort and it doesn't require commitment! I might need therapy after that but it's better than a life sentence disguised in marriage.

I also think I'm selfish in that respect: I like doing what I want anytime I want. I don't like to compromise my freedom (even in the silly everyday little stuff, like where/what I'm going to eat, decorating my house, getting up in the middle of the night and switching the lights on if I feel like it, lol). That's one of the reasons why I can never picture myself in a relationship, I can't even sacrifice the inane, how can I compromise my core?

So, in reply to the OP, I'm 32 never been married, never been in a relationship and I like it a lot so far :)

[logans run]

Hi 41 and never been married had relationships but when it came to the sex (oooow) i just ran lol i dont think i have met an asexual woman but who knows its not the topic to talk about in my circles i hope to meet someone one day i would like the company and cuddles now and then... 8)

[Nick2]

I completely identify with Ziffler. I'm 58 never been married and set in my ways at this point. It is still awkward at times around others but I have grown into my asexuality and am content with it.

[eliana]

It seems to me that most older asexuals are/have been married. My guess is because it was the appropriate thing to do in previous generations.

Any who have not ever been married?

I'm 40 and have never married. I had a boyfriend for 17 years though, somehow I never wanted to marry him. I always knew in the back of my mind it wasn't right for me.

I'm actually glad I didn't now. At least I didn't have to divide up my finances with him. He was in terrible debt. I also am free. To heck with what society thinks.

[eliana]

40 yo and never married . not easy to tell a person that you never want to have sex

so we all just put that high wall around us .

deep down we all feel a bit of loneliness , for me a companion that would never ever want sex , just a road companion in my travels and life will be just perfect . but asexuals are not labeled LOL

I really can relate to everything you said. Especially about building a wall around yourself. It is hard to be so misunderstood. We need to get the word out to more older people about AVEN.

[Shopal]

I'm 42, never been married. Kissed only twice and slept with a girl 3-4 times but for only part of the night. She even told me that she only wants to sleep with me and nothing else

[twister]

Alomst 50 here and never married - one very short relationship (if you could call it that) for 5months some 6 years ago. I never did do what everyone else was doing :-)

[EUF]

hi you all,

Interesting discussion - all American / or GB?

Well, me, 52, Southern Germany, never married, many relationships, destroy-fact: need for sex by the male partner

-tests of lesbian dates/relationships: impossible for sex-factor,

and countless one-night-stands in my youth.

Seems have to been the need for human closeness. Never clicked.

After several (mind you) psychotherapies, came up the old fact of an abuse in my teens

After some thoughts on my side, I seem not even to have liked sex with men before.

Now: maybe the extreme athmosphere of restriction in any way (sexuality, clothes, looks, etc...my English is too bad to explain)

at my parent's home + in my childhood is to blame?

Never mind - I would very much like to find a partner but I will not again do the sex-thing, which I dont like+ which consequentially destroys everything, not being understood my 'normal?' men.

Only possibilities: stay off men who are 'normal' or seem so,

resp. very soon state your disinterest in sex. Otherwise there are always hard landings.

Difficult though.

Anyone got other ideas to this? regards, EUF

[Saggia]

hi you all,

Interesting discussion - all American / or GB?

Well, me, 52, Southern Germany, never married, many relationships, destroy-fact: need for sex by the male partner

-tests of lesbian dates/relationships: impossible for sex-factor,

and countless one-night-stands in my youth.

Seems have to been the need for human closeness. Never clicked.

After several (mind you) psychotherapies, came up the old fact of an abuse in my teens

After some thoughts on my side, I seem not even to have liked sex with men before.

Now: maybe the extreme athmosphere of restriction in any way (sexuality, clothes, looks, etc...my English is too bad to explain)

at my parent's home + in my childhood is to blame?

Never mind - I would very much like to find a partner but I will not again do the sex-thing, which I dont like+ which consequentially destroys everything, not being understood my 'normal?' men.

Only possibilities: stay off men who are 'normal' or seem so,

resp. very soon state your disinterest in sex. Otherwise there are always hard landings.

Difficult though.

Anyone got other ideas to this? regards, EUF

Nice to meet you EUF. You are facing the same kinds of questions we all have about meeting new dates. I personally have tried a few dates in the past year and even at my age, 55, and going out with guys who are over 60, it still doesn't work for me. Maybe I am send ing out the wrong signals, but I am not comfortable telling people upfront that I am asexual. The few people I have told have no idea what I am talking about.

[EUF]

hi you all,

Interesting discussion - all American / or GB?

Well, me, 52, Southern Germany, never married, many relationships, destroy-fact: need for sex by the male partner

-tests of lesbian dates/relationships: impossible for sex-factor,

and countless one-night-stands in my youth.

Seems have to been the need for human closeness. Never clicked.

After several (mind you) psychotherapies, came up the old fact of an abuse in my teens

After some thoughts on my side, I seem not even to have liked sex with men before.

Now: maybe the extreme athmosphere of restriction in any way (sexuality, clothes, looks, etc...my English is too bad to explain)

at my parent's home + in my childhood is to blame?

Never mind - I would very much like to find a partner but I will not again do the sex-thing, which I dont like+ which consequentially destroys everything, not being understood my 'normal?' men.

Only possibilities: stay off men who are 'normal' or seem so,

resp. very soon state your disinterest in sex. Otherwise there are always hard landings.

Difficult though.

Anyone got other ideas to this? regards, EUF

Nice to meet you EUF. You are facing the same kinds of questions we all have about meeting new dates. I personally have tried a few dates in the past year and even at my age, 55, and going out with guys who are over 60, it still doesn't work for me. Maybe I am send ing out the wrong signals, but I am not comfortable telling people upfront that I am asexual. The few people I have told have no idea what I am talking about.

[EUF]

Hi bookbabe,

thanks a lot for your reply!

your cat, the little one in your picture? nice one, anyway.

What's regarding 'new' dates: I did not have a date (with a hetero man) for about 9 years or so.

Years ago, i had a few dates with women-friends, but their goal is always to find available men for the night, the week or a lifetime, so thats it not for me, either. I just dont do that no more.

If you agree to a man to go out with him or let you invite him, he will ALWAYS (unless he's one of us) expect sex.

Age does not matter, even men in their eighties or nineties, even with prostata operation, expect you, to have sex with them. Your age in the first line does not matter, either.

for all of those guys this ist quite normal, absolutely normal.

Me, as I haven't been aware of the fact being asexual is a way to 'be', I did not want to always have the trouble rejecting them for having a headache or something and inventing other excuses, so I never let invite me or agree to a date.

Thats sorry, but it is like that. Can't change the way, the world goes round.

I not yet tould anyone, i'm asexual, see no need to do it, but I now feel very comfortabel, not any more feeling absolutely alone in the world being like that. Should I again meet a man interested in me, I'd first of all things put this thing straight, not to awaken wrong expectations.

I do meet men, driving my bike, going shopping and other things, but I'm not 'available', I say nicely and politely 'no thanks'.

Anyway I've become to be a happy single, loving my live on my own and would never ever let again someone control me, be he or she asexual or not, and i would never ever again share my bedroom with anyone.

It's nice to be able to do what you want to without soemones comment or dislike or envy.

So, don't let yourself be faked about men or dates or even lesbian women, or dates. Its all about sex, everything, the whole time. Dont let yourself bee fooled.

I for myself decided to get some of those t-shirts 'no sex please', 'asexuality is not only for amoebas any more' for the upcoming summer.

Well, I live in a small town, and to go swimming or jogging with a such thing is here no danger to be harrassed. I'll see, but some men, surely, will be relieved, too, and above all their wifes, who, up to now, regarded me as an available female, and unwelcome as a such.

There are people, who dont understand a lot of things, and if someone does not understand i/you/we have no need for sex, probably it's their problem, too.

Well, being a part of a community, and be it even a small one, but knowing there are some other human beings out there who are and feel the same, makes me feel very good about myself.

And having no new dates doesn't mean not getting to know some new people, which is seemingly anyway the more difficult the older you get.

But isn't it nice, not to have a husband telling you when to go to sleep, when to get up and how to dress. You can do it all the way you like it most, just how it is best for you.

Regards, EUF

[/size][/size]

[Saggia]

Hi bookbabe,

thanks a lot for your reply!

your cat, the little one in your picture? nice one, anyway.

What's regarding 'new' dates: I did not have a date (with a hetero man) for about 9 years or so.

Years ago, i had a few dates with women-friends, but their goal is always to find available men for the night, the week or a lifetime, so thats it not for me, either. I just dont do that no more.

If you agree to a man to go out with him or let you invite him, he will ALWAYS (unless he's one of us) expect sex.

Age does not matter, even men in their eighties or nineties, even with prostata operation, expect you, to have sex with them. Your age in the first line does not matter, either.

for all of those guys this ist quite normal, absolutely normal.

Me, as I haven't been aware of the fact being asexual is a way to 'be', I did not want to always have the trouble rejecting them for having a headache or something and inventing other excuses, so I never let invite me or agree to a date.

Thats sorry, but it is like that. Can't change the way, the world goes round.

I not yet tould anyone, i'm asexual, see no need to do it, but I now feel very comfortabel, not any more feeling absolutely alone in the world being like that. Should I again meet a man interested in me, I'd first of all things put this thing straight, not to awaken wrong expectations.

I do meet men, driving my bike, going shopping and other things, but I'm not 'available', I say nicely and politely 'no thanks'.

Anyway I've become to be a happy single, loving my live on my own and would never ever let again someone control me, be he or she asexual or not, and i would never ever again share my bedroom with anyone.

It's nice to be able to do what you want to without soemones comment or dislike or envy.

So, don't let yourself be faked about men or dates or even lesbian women, or dates. Its all about sex, everything, the whole time. Dont let yourself bee fooled.

I for myself decided to get some of those t-shirts 'no sex please', 'asexuality is not only for amoebas any more' for the upcoming summer.

Well, I live in a small town, and to go swimming or jogging with a such thing is here no danger to be harrassed. I'll see, but some men, surely, will be relieved, too, and above all their wifes, who, up to now, regarded me as an available female, and unwelcome as a such.

There are people, who dont understand a lot of things, and if someone does not understand i/you/we have no need for sex, probably it's their problem, too.

Well, being a part of a community, and be it even a small one, but knowing there are some other human beings out there who are and feel the same, makes me feel very good about myself.

And having no new dates doesn't mean not getting to know some new people, which is seemingly anyway the more difficult the older you get.

But isn't it nice, not to have a husband telling you when to go to sleep, when to get up and how to dress. You can do it all the way you like it most, just how it is best for you.

Regards, EUF

[/size][/size]

LOL! If I had some one telling me what to do all the time, I wouldn't be married for very long! I would just like to meet some nice people to go hang out with once in awhile. All my buddies are married.

[EUF]

Hi bookbabe,

thanks a lot for your reply!

your cat, the little one in your picture? nice one, anyway.

What's regarding 'new' dates: I did not have a date (with a hetero man) for about 9 years or so.

Years ago, i had a few dates with women-friends, but their goal is always to find available men for the night, the week or a lifetime, so thats it not for me, either. I just dont do that no more.

If you agree to a man to go out with him or let you invite him, he will ALWAYS (unless he's one of us) expect sex.

Age does not matter, even men in their eighties or nineties, even with prostata operation, expect you, to have sex with them. Your age in the first line does not matter, either.

for all of those guys this ist quite normal, absolutely normal.

Me, as I haven't been aware of the fact being asexual is a way to 'be', I did not want to always have the trouble rejecting them for having a headache or something and inventing other excuses, so I never let invite me or agree to a date.

Thats sorry, but it is like that. Can't change the way, the world goes round.

I not yet tould anyone, i'm asexual, see no need to do it, but I now feel very comfortabel, not any more feeling absolutely alone in the world being like that. Should I again meet a man interested in me, I'd first of all things put this thing straight, not to awaken wrong expectations.

I do meet men, driving my bike, going shopping and other things, but I'm not 'available', I say nicely and politely 'no thanks'.

Anyway I've become to be a happy single, loving my live on my own and would never ever let again someone control me, be he or she asexual or not, and i would never ever again share my bedroom with anyone.

It's nice to be able to do what you want to without soemones comment or dislike or envy.

So, don't let yourself be faked about men or dates or even lesbian women, or dates. Its all about sex, everything, the whole time. Dont let yourself bee fooled.

I for myself decided to get some of those t-shirts 'no sex please', 'asexuality is not only for amoebas any more' for the upcoming summer.

Well, I live in a small town, and to go swimming or jogging with a such thing is here no danger to be harrassed. I'll see, but some men, surely, will be relieved, too, and above all their wifes, who, up to now, regarded me as an available female, and unwelcome as a such.

There are people, who dont understand a lot of things, and if someone does not understand i/you/we have no need for sex, probably it's their problem, too.

Well, being a part of a community, and be it even a small one, but knowing there are some other human beings out there who are and feel the same, makes me feel very good about myself.

And having no new dates doesn't mean not getting to know some new people, which is seemingly anyway the more difficult the older you get.

But isn't it nice, not to have a husband telling you when to go to sleep, when to get up and how to dress. You can do it all the way you like it most, just how it is best for you.

Regards, EUF

[/size][/size]

LOL! If I had some one telling me what to do all the time, I wouldn't be married for very long! I would just like to meet some nice people to go hang out with once in awhile. All my buddies are married.

[EUF]

hi bookbabe, now YOU made me laughing!

Ever really seen ANY couple where not one commands the other around?

I didn't /hardly do.

Beginning with my parents, ALL neigbours here in the house, ALL of my friends and aquaintances, let me count...

about 50 couples I know, even my sister, who istn't the one to be commanded around, consequently now separated...

I know FOUR -4- happy couples - I mean, of course all of them tell me, they're happy, but I can very well see the cost mostly the women pay for not being alone. (they don't want to see it and never will...)

Fear of lonileness - Which ist the reason 70 percent of all couples exist as a couple in the first instance.

Where ist the problem, if your friends are married?

We do not want to have sex or a sexual relationship anyway?

So make the women your friends, to go shopping and do girl's things, make it clear, you're in no way interested in their husbands or boyfriends, and those, they can come over to solve any man-problem, from watertaps lecking to car-batteries, computer-brake-downs, carrying heavy mineral water cases and putting up some file-cabinets at the beton-wall of the house/apartment.

And if you know some nice men or women, even if thei're married, not all of them hang out for tete-a-tete with their partners at the same time?

Even for christmas or silvester (new year), I KNEW people to go to, and always could get invitations, only that I'm a person :D preferring to stay home alone with my pets, which is the most cozy thing for me, but thats my personal thing.

Bet you find some couples, who will absolutely accept you to go out with them or hang around wherever, if the women know, you're now danger the man know, they need not try to get you laid.

So, you should find company for seven evenings the week:

And for the rest I'd go to some classes like yoga, foreing languages, painting, singing, whatever - if I had time left or need for more people. Why don't you? Or biology, or some sports, or some climbing on weekends, or cooking classes, should be makable, no? And then there are also inexpensive things to do, like finding a jogging-group for sunday morning or volunteering at the local church for weekend or even teach people how to read or write

Me, personally, I have never enough time left, to do all the things, Id like to do. And whatever your interests, you should, too.

Now, WHAT do you think of those things?

Isn't a good aquaintance or a real friend or a nice group who share the same interests even better than a cinema-dinner-date with a man, who doesn't understand the most important part of you, being asexual? :)

Looking forward very much to your reply and wishing you a nice day.

Regards, EUF

[Saggia]

hi bookbabe, now YOU made me laughing!

Ever really seen ANY couple where not one commands the other around?

I didn't /hardly do.

Beginning with my parents, ALL neigbours here in the house, ALL of my friends and aquaintances, let me count...

about 50 couples I know, even my sister, who istn't the one to be commanded around, consequently now separated...

I know FOUR -4- happy couples - I mean, of course all of them tell me, they're happy, but I can very well see the cost mostly the women pay for not being alone. (they don't want to see it and never will...)

Fear of lonileness - Which ist the reason 70 percent of all couples exist as a couple in the first instance.

Where ist the problem, if your friends are married?

We do not want to have sex or a sexual relationship anyway?

So make the women your friends, to go shopping and do girl's things, make it clear, you're in no way interested in their husbands or boyfriends, and those, they can come over to solve any man-problem, from watertaps lecking to car-batteries, computer-brake-downs, carrying heavy mineral water cases and putting up some file-cabinets at the beton-wall of the house/apartment.

And if you know some nice men or women, even if thei're married, not all of them hang out for tete-a-tete with their partners at the same time?

Even for christmas or silvester (new year), I KNEW people to go to, and always could get invitations, only that I'm a person :D preferring to stay home alone with my pets, which is the most cozy thing for me, but thats my personal thing.

Bet you find some couples, who will absolutely accept you to go out with them or hang around wherever, if the women know, you're now danger the man know, they need not try to get you laid.

So, you should find company for seven evenings the week:

And for the rest I'd go to some classes like yoga, foreing languages, painting, singing, whatever - if I had time left or need for more people. Why don't you? Or biology, or some sports, or some climbing on weekends, or cooking classes, should be makable, no? And then there are also inexpensive things to do, like finding a jogging-group for sunday morning or volunteering at the local church for weekend or even teach people how to read or write

Me, personally, I have never enough time left, to do all the things, Id like to do. And whatever your interests, you should, too.

Now, WHAT do you think of those things?

Isn't a good aquaintance or a real friend or a nice group who share the same interests even better than a cinema-dinner-date with a man, who doesn't understand the most important part of you, being asexual? :)

Looking forward very much to your reply and wishing you a nice day.

Regards, EUF

Hi EUF. I think the problem I have with married friends is that most of the time their husbands/wives seem to feel neglected or insecure if their mate goes out without them. I do not tell people I am asexual because I live in a very small Southern town and down here they would probably think anything with the SEX in it is evil. Sad but true. I sometimes would like to go spend a few days traveling to a new town with a friend to take a tour or something, they usually can't get away for more than a few hours. Like you, I don't have time to take classes. I get up at 4:00 am for work, and get home at 4:30 pm. I'm in bed by 9:00 let me tell you. On weekends I run errands and clean house. As long as my mom is alive and I am her caregiver this will probably be the norm. I had a cockatiel like the one in your avatar but he passed away a couple of months ago. His companion is still alive an kicking at 20.

[Quaver]

Hi all, I relate to much of what has been said here. I'm 44 and have never been married. I had boyfriends when I was younger, at Uni, but the relationships faltered due my lack of willingness to engage in sexual activity. I loved the companionship, going walking, doing things together. I wondered if I was a lesbian and over the years have had some gay relationships, once living with a woman for 2 years. I always had problems with the sexual side of things, not really understanding what the fuss was all about and hating myself for not being "normal". I think it's always the close friendship that I've wanted more than anything.

For the last 10 years or so I have been on my own, pretty much giving up hope of ever finding anyone who would be a loving, caring partner and a soulmate. I think it's very sad that this one aspect of life - sexual activity - can affect the whole outcome your life - whether you are lonely or not. I am coming to the conclusion, as I near 45 years old, that that needn't be the case, and if it's me that decides no one will ever want me, then noone will! So I'm ready to peep out of my burrow and see what's out there! *waves* :D

[Hermathena]

44 and never been married . Never had any lasting relationship either . Couldnt have been lasting with me not wanting to have sex with the other part . I would like to have someone however to share my life but I dont think this could happen.

[seneca]

New person here. 44 and never married. Never had sex.

[SunshinesMom]

What a Godsend this post is. I feel so much better about myself after reading some of the replies. Most of the time I feel so alone in this world, and I feel defective for never getting married, when it seems like 98% of people do marry.

I'm 40 and have never been married. Had 1 serious relationship when I was 23 and that's it.

I would love to be married. I would love the companionship and the support. I've been in and out of the hospital a lot this year. My last hospital roommate had a loving husband that would stay at her bedside all day. I was so envious of that.

If I were a sexual person, I probably would have married a long time ago. I feel that my asexuality is part-curse, and I am concerned that because of my asexuality, I am destined to be alone until I die.

[Saggia]

Hi all, I relate to much of what has been said here. I'm 44 and have never been married. I had boyfriends when I was younger, at Uni, but the relationships faltered due my lack of willingness to engage in sexual activity. I loved the companionship, going walking, doing things together. I wondered if I was a lesbian and over the years have had some gay relationships, once living with a woman for 2 years. I always had problems with the sexual side of things, not really understanding what the fuss was all about and hating myself for not being "normal". I think it's always the close friendship that I've wanted more than anything.

For the last 10 years or so I have been on my own, pretty much giving up hope of ever finding anyone who would be a loving, caring partner and a soulmate. I think it's very sad that this one aspect of life - sexual activity - can affect the whole outcome your life - whether you are lonely or not. I am coming to the conclusion, as I near 45 years old, that that needn't be the case, and if it's me that decides no one will ever want me, then noone will! So I'm ready to peep out of my burrow and see what's out there! *waves* :D

If no one else has said welcome, Sunsquint, let me be the first. Welcome to Aven. It has been a little quiet in this forum lately so I have only been checking in once in a while. I hope that you can find a close companion to keep you company. I am hoping that once day I might I might find a close friend as well, but right now it looks like I am going to be the family care giver, so that is my lot in life. If you ever feel the need to talk, send me a message.

[Saggia]

What a Godsend this post is. I feel so much better about myself after reading some of the replies. Most of the time I feel so alone in this world, and I feel defective for never getting married, when it seems like 98% of people do marry.

I'm 40 and have never been married. Had 1 serious relationship when I was 23 and that's it.

I would love to be married. I would love the companionship and the support. I've been in and out of the hospital a lot this year. My last hospital roommate had a loving husband that would stay at her bedside all day. I was so envious of that.

If I were a sexual person, I probably would have married a long time ago. I feel that my asexuality is part-curse, and I am concerned that because of my asexuality, I am destined to be alone until I die.

Welcome to AVEN SunshinesMom Do you have a child, as your name indicates, or like me you are refering to your hairy children? :lol: I have several of those. I hope you will not give up on finding a companion, There are some people on this board who have found some one and you might as well. Keep an open mind and who knows? Drop me a line if you feel like talking.

[Melkaby]

I agree with SunshinesMom. This whole site is a God send. I'm 54. Never been married. Never had a BF. Still a virgin. In today's society, I am made to feel like a freak. I would love to have a serious relationship with a like-minded guy. Possibly even marriage, but I don't have much hope for that. I was told by a co-worker that if you're not married by 35, you're a lost cause. Yeah, that was helpful. Just what I wanted to hear. Thank God for this site.

[Hammerhead]

I was told by a co-worker that if you're not married by 35, you're a lost cause. Yeah, that was helpful. Just what I wanted to hear.

Yeah that was a myth that started back in the mid '80s by an article in the magazine Newsweek. The original assertion was "A woman over age 40 has a better chance of being killed by a terrorist than of getting married".

Snopes.com says otherwise.

[cfc]

I'm 42, very much single, never had a long term relationship unless you count 28 days as long term, single for the past 19 years, never married, never even occurred to me to think about getting married, I am happy with my situation & happy with myself too

[osito]

Never married, and definitely don't feel I'm missing something.

I remember telling my parents at age 9 that I was not ever going to get married. I'm not entirely sure how I knew this, but I was right. I do think it had partly to do with my perception that there was a lot of powermongering and conflict in marriage (including my parents' marriage but also in mainstream culture). I was already exempt from the usual sugar-and-spice expectations of little girls that marriage fulfilled one's destiny. I saw that it would hinder mine.

[seneca]

44 and never married, or had a relationship. Sad in a way.

[Asterion Orestes]

I'm sure I posted about this topic elsewhere, but I'm 53 & never married. For some reason neither have two of my younger brothers (not including one with Down's Syndrome).