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True.

I identify as FtM but I will never deny that part of me is female.

That part may be smaller than my male part, and I can try to measure myself as 70/30, 60/40, 80/20, but in the end it's maybe more like 7/3 and then 90% of a person that is just human and has nothing to do with male and female.

Or 7%/3% and then 5% bigendered, 2% dragqueen, 1.4% cake and 81.6% no gender. lol.

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Marco - Proprietor of Doom

Ha, I'm loving this idea of a male uprising, men burning there stuffy business suits, protesting about the unfair social standers there sex places them in. It's a fun idea true enough, I don't exactly see it happening though.

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by the end of canto IV, Don Juan was a male lesbian. I think...

:lol:

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Definitely. A giant societal change that will probably not come to pass until well after we're all dead. <_< I'm not optimistic. We are making strides forward, and everyone's come pretty far, but there's still so much intolerance that I don't expect much.

I would agree that a social change probably isn't going to happen soon. Mostly because social revolutions have the biggest chance of happening in a society that has know at least a generation of economic growth. Societies where people are high educated and don't have to worry so much about job security leave more room for radicals fighting for change, and more room for moderates to accept them.

Still, even now, every step helps. Every bit of activism prepares the public for the coming of change.

Man, I sound like Obama with a gender-agenda, ;)

Sammie;

At first I was unsure about you comments ... but I find myself agreeing with you wholeheartedly. What humanity needs is total emancipation; in other words, the freedom for an individual be themselves, and to be judged purely " ... on the content of their character ... " and nothing else. As George Orwell once wrote, " Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2= 4. Once that is granted, all else follows. "

Why not have a gender-agenda; everything needs that small start, the pebble that creates the avalanche ...

1.4% cake

As this is AVEN, I 'm sure there is a bit of cake in everyone ... in my case, it might be 3% cake, and 2% chocolate ...

BTW, way off topic, I know ... I am slightly struggling with your avatar ... One is definitely Tom Baker minus the floppy hat, and I think the one with the question mark on the lapels is Sylvester McCoy; but can't decide whether the one with the leek is Peter Davidson, or Colin Baker ... I'm sure its Peter Davidson , but with my memory ... nice artwork though.

Ha, I'm loving this idea of a male uprising, men burning there stuffy business suits, protesting about the unfair social standers there sex places them in. It's a fun idea true enough, I don't exactly see it happening though.

Hey, no fair ... I happen to like my suits, even if they are old, a bit tatty, and I can't get into one of them anymore ...

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Isn't the media and film industry somewhat responsible for propagating the idea of strict gender roles in our society- males should act aggressive with a Pierce Brosnan outlook and females should be nubile submissive like Kate Winslet? There are some films on GLBTs true, but, the popular ones are those which reinforce the stereotypes.

People enjoy the films and get the impulse to enact them likewise in reality forgetting that films are just fiction. I often get snubs from my mom if I act tomboyish. She keeps chiding me-"Behave yourself. See these gorgeous actresses on TV. Can't you dress up in good skirts?"

I really don't understand why as a girl, I have to wear skirts and can't wear trousers without earning people's ire?? I blame the media for this.

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Isn't the media and film industry somewhat responsible for propagating the idea of strict gender roles in our society- males should act aggressive with a Pierce Brosnan outlook and females should be nubile submissive like Kate Winslet? There are some films on GLBTs true, but, the popular ones are those which reinforce the stereotypes.

People enjoy the films and get the impulse to enact them likewise in reality forgetting that films are just fiction. I often get snubs from my mom if I act tomboyish. She keeps chiding me-"Behave yourself. See these gorgeous actresses on TV. Can't you dress up in good skirts?"

I really don't understand why as a girl, I have to wear skirts and can't wear trousers without earning people's ire?? I blame the media for this.

Exactly ... which is why the only people that know about me being a Male Lesbian are my friends on this forum, and I have recently joined www.malesba.com, which is still under construction. Hopefully it will prove to be just as good a forum as AVEN.

So why don't I come "out" to my friends IRL ? Because I have a hard enough time explaining that I am an Asexual; trying to explain what a Male Lesbian is would be too much hard work for very little. The only exception is a female friend of mine who I know did have lesbian experiences before she got married; I haven't told her yet, and I'm not sure how, or if, I should.

As for my parents... forget it. The only person I get to see regularly is my mum; I knew a cousin of mine was gay way before she realized it. Now she is constantly bemoaning him ... she is also realized I have yet to have a relationship, so she thinks I might be gay as well ... not that I dissuade her, as I think its hilarious ...

So I'm somewhat stuck ... I know where I would like to be; but getting to there, from here ...

And btw, personally, I don't think Kate Winslet is a nubile submissive ... I remember her in Heavenly Creatures ...

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Isn't the media and film industry somewhat responsible for propagating the idea of strict gender roles in our society- males should act aggressive with a Pierce Brosnan outlook and females should be nubile submissive like Kate Winslet? There are some films on GLBTs true, but, the popular ones are those which reinforce the stereotypes.

People enjoy the films and get the impulse to enact them likewise in reality forgetting that films are just fiction. I often get snubs from my mom if I act tomboyish. She keeps chiding me-"Behave yourself. See these gorgeous actresses on TV. Can't you dress up in good skirts?"

I really don't understand why as a girl, I have to wear skirts and can't wear trousers without earning people's ire?? I blame the media for this.

While the media isn't the only factor to blame, I'd say it is a large one.

We all know commercials and movies can influence us into choosing what to buy, but somehow most people deny that media can influence into choosing how to act, and how to define out identity (which, according to the media, is dominated for a large part by our gender).

Diversions from this path are used only for laughs (because we ALL know that 'the feminine gay friend' makes a chick movie funnier), shock (how often is 'the girl you slept with was once a man' used for shockvalue in series?) or, of course: sex. This last thing only happens by putting in masculine roles, usually waring less clothing them they otherwise would. For some reason, a powerful woman with a big gun and a lack of clothing turns people on. But the freedom this gives women is fake, because powerful women feature in the media only as sexobjects for men.

But I could talk for hours about gender and media.. if you're interested in the topic, here's some links:

- http://www.genderads.com/Gender_Ads.com.html

- watch 'Killing us Softly' I-III by Jean Kilbourne for a feminist perspective on advertising.

- watch current.com 's gender related series 'Target Women' and 'That's Gay'.

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For some reason, a powerful woman with a big gun and a lack of clothing turns people on. But the freedom this gives women is fake, because powerful women feature in the media only as sexobjects for men.

I thought some women enjoy this freedom too,(it makes them feel sexy and attractive) but I think I may be wrong afterall. But again, the media propagates the idea that it's really so.

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But the freedom this gives women is fake, because powerful women feature in the media only as sexobjects for men.

I guess that depends largely on what you mean by "powerful". But most people think women to be powerful if they are sex objects, not when they are manly, and that's a typical media image. Maybe that's one reason why women have been denied equal rights as men for so long??

I personally though feel beauty or glam is secondary to a human being's other important humane attributes, but the media makes most people turn their thoughts into the other side constantly.

I can't say what makes scantily clad women a turn on for people, but surely, this concept of a woman being the "fashion accessory" or the "nubile submissive" is degrading the status of modern women once again,but in a very insidious and invisible way.

While for men too, it's equally harmful, especially those who don't fit into those typical "onlookers". I guess the media industry has gone too far with its freedom from any censure and people have gone too far with their blind obeisance to the media.

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Most sexuals like feeling sexual and attractive- but most people also want to feel respected. The problem isn't that they're shown as sexy- the problem is that they're shown as sex objects. How much respect do you have for a dildo, and how would you feel if that's the amount of respect people showed you? The problem isn't that women are shown as sexy- the problem is when women are portrayed or treated as sex toys. If a woman can be respected as a person while being considered sexually attractive or 'slutty'- then seeing powerful women would be a very different thing. But too many people don't care about seeing sexy women, especially fictional women, as people- just as jerk-off material.

I don't know if Tomb Raider is an example of that or not- but a lot of people only play or watch it to look at her "bazookas".

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Most sexuals like feeling sexual and attractive- but most people also want to feel respected. The problem isn't that they're shown as sexy- the problem is that they're shown as sex objects. How much respect do you have for a dildo, and how would you feel if that's the amount of respect people showed you? The problem isn't that women are shown as sexy- the problem is when women are portrayed or treated as sex toys. If a woman can be respected as a person while being considered sexually attractive or 'slutty'- then seeing powerful women would be a very different thing. But too many people don't care about seeing sexy women, especially fictional women, as people- just as jerk-off material.

I don't know if Tomb Raider is an example of that or not- but a lot of people only play or watch it to look at her "bazookas".

And that sort of thing is equally degrading for some men. I wonder why only men are shown as onlookers on TV. Aren't women the same as men when it comes to getting tuned on? Also, is it necessary that all men or all women have to be the same? There are too many exceptions always.

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True.

I identify as FtM but I will never deny that part of me is female.

That part may be smaller than my male part, and I can try to measure myself as 70/30, 60/40, 80/20, but in the end it's maybe more like 7/3 and then 90% of a person that is just human and has nothing to do with male and female.

Or 7%/3% and then 5% bigendered, 2% dragqueen, 1.4% cake and 81.6% no gender. lol.

That's the same with me too. 5%drag, 10%queer, 50%male,about just 30% female. But the problem is that I enjoy my female side more than my male side, as it looks very glam and sexy. I like being in feminine aesthetics. But I am thinking of these things as a human being, not as some male or female or transgender. Maybe I am too much demanding or something, but at the end, it's something more than gender.

A peculiar case with me is that while scantily clad women attract lots of attention from many men around me,I constantly keep scratching my head thinking why men can't get the same opportunity of being a showpiece. I feel jealous,deprived.

I don't want to be a sexual object for men (I happen to love women only and I am not gay), but it's a desire to get equal rights as women. If women can get the freedom to be in cosmetics and be center of attention, so should men. I see nothing wrong in it though the concept seems laughable to many and that's of course due to media projections.

Some years back in teenage, my dad told me-"Study hard, get a good job so that you can attract a beautiful girl. People will admire you for this beautiful gift you would have." I felt so bitterly resentful- people would admire me for my "gift's appearance" but not my apperance?

I don't say I hate women for this privilege but what I say is men can be equally glam like women, so, this should not be overlooked. Men should not be made to feel that they are emotionless machines in contrast with the women. I guess this is the point of contempt for most male lesbians.

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Personally, I wouldn't want to use any cosmetics as male or female and as a female I never liked the pressure to do so.

But men are using more and more beauty products.

As far as men being a showpiece goes.. well, maybe that's just because women are less public about their sexdrive, or care less about the physical. But that doesn't mean men are never showpieces. There is a very muscular male model in my flat and when he walks through the halls shirtless, ALL the girls in the flat suddenly feel the need to go out and have a chat. (and one gay transguy. I'm not entirely immume to the fact that he is very very sexy.)

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Personally, I wouldn't want to use any cosmetics as male or female and as a female I never liked the pressure to do so.

But men are using more and more beauty products.

I don't still see much progress as far as gender equality is concerned.

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This is more like the gender envy phenomenon gripping far too many people worldwide. And I believe hence that people really should stop categorizing human beings into those two little boxes called male and female, if there is to be any harmony in society. But part of the fault lies with people too who keep thinking of what other people would think of them rather than constantly listen to their inner minds. I guess far too many people are vassals of some bigoted social prejudices, and most are too afraid to risk challenging them for good.

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This is more like the gender envy phenomenon gripping far too many people worldwide. And I believe hence that people really should stop categorizing human beings into those two little boxes called male and female, if there is to be any harmony in society. But part of the fault lies with people too who keep thinking of what other people would think of them rather than constantly listen to their inner minds. I guess far too many people are vassals of some bigoted social prejudices, and most are too afraid to risk challenging them for good.

I too second that thought. But, maybe for some reason, some people get more gender envy than others?

The male lesbian metrosexual is a sure evolution in the male society.

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This is more like the gender envy phenomenon gripping far too many people worldwide. And I believe hence that people really should stop categorizing human beings into those two little boxes called male and female, if there is to be any harmony in society. But part of the fault lies with people too who keep thinking of what other people would think of them rather than constantly listen to their inner minds. I guess far too many people are vassals of some bigoted social prejudices, and most are too afraid to risk challenging them for good.

I too second that thought. But, maybe for some reason, some people get more gender envy than others?

The male lesbian metrosexual is a sure evolution in the male society.

Well, I have no intention for bringing about any major "evolution" for all males. I just want others to accept me as I am, a feminine guy with all sorts of girlish interests and living for the most part in a girl's world. I just want others to detach my mind from my biological sex and see me as I am. There could be many males who prefer to stay as the rugged masculine type, but since that's not something that makes me feel contented and also makes me feel sick, I would rather stay away from it. Also, I want the world to change the notion that every effeminate guy is either gay or trans and every gay/trans is effeminate. Nor is someone who has some gender-dysphoria necessarily a "transgender" or is like the other transgenders. Human mind is too notoriously complicated for any generalizations of this sort.

I have always been too effeminate as normal guy, but never had any gender dysphoria (only the feeling that things would be much better if I were born female), nor any attraction to males. Also I like female partner. So, the male lesbian concept isn't something I think should be read in a wrong way. One who does it is only being too much subjective as he sees it based on his own feelings and hence does not respect the diversity of myriad possibilities of human thoughts.

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i lable myself as gay. (im female, HATE the word lesbian)

but theres a tv show some have probably heard of called the L word..

season 2 i think, had a male lesbian on it, called lisa. he was with alice (who is bi)

she said he was her perfect match. the male physically, but the girl+girl relationship side...

not realy anything to do with wear this discussion is going.. but that came tomy mind...

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season 2 i think, had a male lesbian on it, called lisa. he was with alice (who is bi)

she said he was her perfect match. the male physically, but the girl+girl relationship side...

Sounds interesting.

Maybe male lesbians could also find the relationship they're looking for with a bisexual or pansexual woman?

Or would the physical 'being male' get in the way?

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Maybe male lesbians could also find the relationship they're looking for with a bisexual or pansexual woman?

Or would the physical 'being male' get in the way?

Not really, if the partner has no expectations of those icky roles of male side during sexual activity.

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That depends on the woman. Some bisexual women enjoy dating masculine women/feminine men because tehy crave both males and females- so the mix gives them a bit of each and that's what they want. Other bisexuals are still firmly "hetero"normative so only want to date masculine men and feminine women. I think it is easier to find bi/pansexuals who are okay with dating a guy who's less in the male role, but it's not a guarantee.

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From what I hear, most bisexuals want someone either as a man or as a woman, and which one it is usually depends on biological sex. In other words, someone who wants a woman will go for a biological woman, while someone who wants a man will go for a biological man. Even someone who wants a transperson is attracted to both the male and the female aspects, and the transperson often hates that. So I would advise all "male lesbians" not to get their hopes up.

fine89: Wow, how did that relationship go in the series? I'm guessing it ended, since you say "Season 2." I don't watch that show, so...

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I wouldn't get my hopes down either GirlInside, a lot more people than you'd think are open to dating genderqueer. A lot of people know that transwoman are real woman and genderqueer inbetweens can be just as attractive as femme women and alpha-males.

You just have to look in the right places. Gay bars, queer communities, bisexual singles night. If someone is pansexual, or is bisexual but doesn't like that word because there aren't 2 genders, that's your guy/girl. I admit, finding a partner is easier for cismales an cisfemales than for genderqueer but it is by no means impossible.

There is a saying: for every jar, there's a lid that fits just right. (Even if that lid is another jar, or something inbetween, or te jar and lid make up an item the world has never seen before. **** the rules, genderqueerness, yay!)

this is my contribution of hippie feelgood stuff for the day.

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fine89: Wow, how did that relationship go in the series? I'm guessing it ended, since you say "Season 2." I don't watch that show, so...

it ended. i havent watched it in forever, but i think it was cause Alice wanted him to use his penis - but lisa wanted lesbian sex..

but that show never has a happy relationship for more than 3/4 episodes

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it ended. i havent watched it in forever, but i think it was cause Alice wanted him to use his penis - but lisa wanted lesbian sex..

but that show never has a happy relationship for more than 3/4 episodes

Could have seen that comming. A weird reason for people to break. Sexuals around me tell me there's a lot of toys and solutions and.. well, what do I know. :unsure:

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fine89: Wow, how did that relationship go in the series? I'm guessing it ended, since you say "Season 2." I don't watch that show, so...

it ended. i havent watched it in forever, but i think it was cause Alice wanted him to use his penis - but lisa wanted lesbian sex..

but that show never has a happy relationship for more than 3/4 episodes

Yeah, that's part of the reason I avoid sex. I'd rather eat the most disgusting food I can think of than use that part for anything (except the elimination of certain bodily wastes, of course).

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Perhaps the author does not understand MtF people who like women. Also, one's gender identity and one's sexual orientation seem to develop at different times in utero. Perhaps an embryo's brain that develops male genetalia (and is likely XY), and also develops a sexual orientation for women, but develops a more female brain, at least regarding gender identity (in other words, are trans).

The being born "male" yet being born with a female gender identity is basically what a MtF is. If they do nonetheless like girls, well, so be it. They are women who were born male and part of that process caused them to like women.

Anyways, just some thoughts. I am still not sure of the author really understand what he is writing about. I would say that his "male lesbians" are just MtF peeps who happen to be attracted to women.

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if I've repeated what's been said. But I'd like to say that my boyfriend fits the author's description of "male lesbian" but not MtF lesbian. He frequently feels that he would be happier if he were born a woman, and he's pretty effeminate in some ways, and I often "wear the pants in the relationship," but he would never ever want a sex change. He is a boy and he can't imagine being trans. But he wishes he were born a woman, oftentimes he says "so he could feel pretty." He also finds the idea of having a relationship with a man repulsive.

So I do see the difference between MtF trans lesbian and Male Lesbian.

My boyfriend would NEVER change his sex. He's thought about it a lot.

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Marco - Proprietor of Doom
I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if I've repeated what's been said. But I'd like to say that my boyfriend fits the author's description of "male lesbian" but not MtF lesbian. He frequently feels that he would be happier if he were born a woman, and he's pretty effeminate in some ways, and I often "wear the pants in the relationship," but he would never ever want a sex change. He is a boy and he can't imagine being trans. But he wishes he were born a woman, oftentimes he says "so he could feel pretty." He also finds the idea of having a relationship with a man repulsive.

So I do see the difference between MtF trans lesbian and Male Lesbian.

My boyfriend would NEVER change his sex. He's thought about it a lot.

Yup, sounds like a male lesbian to me.

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