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Why use neutral pronouns?


. . .but there are sounds

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. . .but there are sounds

I am considering making use of gender neutral pronouns for myself, at least on AVEN. I can't really say why, there is just something that seems like it might be right. The thing is, I am not sure if it actually is. I do have many female traits, and I enjoy the fact that I have them, however, I am physically male, I have no problem with being physically male, and don't particularly have any trouble identifying as such. That said, if there was a consequence free way of being female for say two months, I would take it in an instance just to have had the experience. I am not an agendered or neutrois or . . . (I really dont know the terminology, apologies) individual, I am not female, I am a male with distinct female traits. So, I do not know if using neutral pronouns is strictly correct, or if it would be somehow inappropriate, in someway usurping and subverting another's identity.

Anyway, I wanted to ask, what are the thoughts of others on a gendered individual using (or desiring to use) neutral pronouns in self-reference?

And secondly, what are some of the reasons other do use such pronouns?

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Above all, I think you should be able to use whatever pronouns you feel most comfortable with. There shouldn't be a problem with any individual using gender-neutral pronouns. I think many like them for that reason -- they can apply to just about anyone and they emphasize that there should be no separation between genders.

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mad_scientist

Gender-neutral pronouns apply to everyone. That's the entire point. Your sex doesn't come into it.

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Because there isn't a not male, not female, not neutral pronoun. He is wrong, she is wrong, there's really only one option. (neutrois here) If you feel more comfortable with he or she, use it. If you don't- find a better option.

My soul-mate is genderless, but prefers 'she' and being referred to as female, simply because she prefers it and she kind of dislikes gender neutral pronouns. I'm sure people can refer one or the other in the non-binary, why can't people in the binary prefer a different option?

Gender-neutral pronouns apply to everyone. That's the entire point. Your sex doesn't come into it.

But your gender should. You should still use gendered pronouns for people who just prefer them and those who fit the binary and don't tell you to use otherwise.

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mad_scientist
Gender-neutral pronouns apply to everyone. That's the entire point. Your sex doesn't come into it.

But your gender should. You should still use gendered pronouns for people who just prefer them and those who fit the binary and don't tell you to use otherwise.

Why? It seems that neutral pronouns should be the default, unless the subject prefers otherwise or their gender is relevant to the discussion. I don't talk about "my black friend" or "my Chinese friend" unless it's relevant to the discussion (or, for some strange reason, they want to be referred to as such all the time); why should I talk about "he" or "she"? It just encourages people to judge the subject at least partly on their gender, which usually doesn't matter.

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Why? It seems that neutral pronouns should be the default, unless the subject prefers otherwise or their gender is relevant to the discussion. I don't talk about "my black friend" or "my Chinese friend" unless it's relevant to the discussion (or, for some strange reason, they want to be referred to as such all the time); why should I talk about "he" or "she"? It just encourages people to judge the subject at least partly on their gender, which usually doesn't matter.

If a person asks you to use a pronoun- it's disrespectful to use any other one. Using a neutral one isn't as bad as using the opposite, but it's still not optimal.

If they're just a person who you read as female and seems to identify as female, but never told you to refer to them as such, calling them by a neutral one until they ask you not to seems reasonable, so long as you start using 'she' if she asks you to. Telling a story about a person the listener doesn't know when the gender doesn't matter and using 'they' isn't a big deal, either.

But if you're telling your friend about what happened with you and a mutual friend- they already know the person's gender/sex, already judging based on it as much as they will, using a gender neutral pronoun for someone who never asked for one isnt' going to reverse that.

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mad_scientist
Why? It seems that neutral pronouns should be the default, unless the subject prefers otherwise or their gender is relevant to the discussion. I don't talk about "my black friend" or "my Chinese friend" unless it's relevant to the discussion (or, for some strange reason, they want to be referred to as such all the time); why should I talk about "he" or "she"? It just encourages people to judge the subject at least partly on their gender, which usually doesn't matter.

If a person asks you to use a pronoun- it's disrespectful to use any other one. Using a neutral one isn't as bad as using the opposite, but it's still not optimal.

If they're just a person who you read as female and seems to identify as female, but never told you to refer to them as such, calling them by a neutral one until they ask you not to seems reasonable, so long as you start using 'she' if she asks you to. Telling a story about a person the listener doesn't know when the gender doesn't matter and using 'they' isn't a big deal, either.

That's what I said.

But if you're telling your friend about what happened with you and a mutual friend- they already know the person's gender/sex, already judging based on it as much as they will, using a gender neutral pronoun for someone who never asked for one isnt' going to reverse that.

I still don't see why you'd have to use a gendered pronoun, though. It shouldn't make a difference in that situation.

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I still don't see why you'd have to use a gendered pronoun, though. It shouldn't make a difference in that situation.

I was pointing out why your argument doesn't make much sense in that situation. They know the person, when you mention "Hey, you know John?" they're already applying any gender bais there will be because they already know the person as that gender. There's nothing wrong with using a GNP unless John's told you not to, but if you do it's possible they'll question why you're using gender neutral pronouns instead of 'he'.

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mad_scientist
I still don't see why you'd have to use a gendered pronoun, though. It shouldn't make a difference in that situation.

I was pointing out why your argument doesn't make much sense in that situation. They know the person, when you mention "Hey, you know John?" they're already applying any gender bais there will be because they already know the person as that gender. There's nothing wrong with using a GNP unless John's told you not to, but if you do it's possible they'll question why you're using gender neutral pronouns instead of 'he'.

They *shouldn't*, that's the point. The reason such things happen is because gender-neutral pronouns are nearly always only used for people such as transsexuals or neutrois. Thus, they are not currently gender-neutral pronouns; they simply form a third "none of the above" classification, which defeats the entire freaking point. I've run into people who thing that such pronouns are supposed to indicate that the subject is transsexual! If we treat gender-neutral pronouns as if this is their purpose, they are not gender-neutral pronouns. In the case of John, it shouldn't matter whether you use a gender-neutral or a male pronoun. I was replying to your original claim that male/female pronouns should be the default, and gender neutral pronouns the exception if the others don't apply or people ask not to have them used. Ideally, it should be the other way around.

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I was replying to your original claim that male/female pronouns should be the default, and gender neutral pronouns the exception if the others don't apply or people ask not to have them used. Ideally, it should be the other way around.

When did I make that claim? I thought I made the claim you should use whatever pronoun the person is comfortable with, and most binary gendered individuals are comfortable with the correct pronoun- he or she. I also mentioned that you can use it on a binary person unless that person tells you not to.

The fact is that even if gender neutral is the default, the vast majority of people are in the binary and it's unlikely gender neutral pronouns will ever get beyond use for an unknown gender, a hypothetical where gender doesn't matter, or non-binary (bigender, androgyne, neutrois, genderqueer, etc) gendered people, simply because of the vast number of people who prefer he or she.

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mad_scientist
I was replying to your original claim that male/female pronouns should be the default, and gender neutral pronouns the exception if the others don't apply or people ask not to have them used. Ideally, it should be the other way around.

When did I make that claim? I thought I made the claim you should use whatever pronoun the person is comfortable with, and most binary gendered individuals are comfortable with the correct pronoun- he or she. I also mentioned that you can use it on a binary person unless that person tells you not to.

This line is what I was responding to:

But your gender should. You should still use gendered pronouns for people who just prefer them and those who fit the binary and don't tell you to use otherwise.

Ideally, it shouldn't make any difference whether we use neutral or gendered pronouns for a person on the binary and has not stated a preference. The only reason it does is because nobody uses gender neutral pronouns, thus reinforcing the concept that gender is default and gender-neutral pronouns are like that little "other" box they put on forms under the main options for a classification.

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I would say if you think that it would be more accurate to use those pronouns, or if you would feel better with it, I think you should go for that. It's your personal thing after all.

I don't mind people referring to me as 'she', as im female bodied, and those are just words and I can't be bothered telling people all the time that they shouldn't refer to me like I waa a girl (yet they would assume I'm FtM, and it would be even more complicated to explain them that I'm genderless, yet that's not their business). Just a note aside- I tend to use gender- neutral nicknames, and I like to see people's reaction whn they ask each others if I'm a girl or a boy.

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Stupid question; what are some examples of gender neutral pronouns? I can't think of any that are commonly used.

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silentdreamer

This topic probably doesn't really have anything to do with me since my sex and gender are bother female. But, personally, I get offended to be referred to as he and I prefer to be called she. I wouldn't mind anyone using gender neutral pronouns when talking about me, but it would raise questions if the person was speaking to someone else that already knew me. It's not really a question of proper use of pronouns, it's about how people already know you. If you know Bob is a dog, it wouldnt make sense to start suddenly calling Bob a cat... unless Bob told you he prefers to be called a cat now.

I often use gender neutral pronouns when talking about my friends to people who don't know my friends because I'm just secretive like that. But if I start switching from saying "they" to "he" then back to "they", it would confuse people. I'm all for mixing up the standards and getting people to think outside of the normal conventions of life, but not when it's going to confuse them. Utter confusion just drives people further into the safety of their boxes.

And I say use whatever pronouns you want in regards to yourself. They are just like any other label in life; They can stick to whomever feels most comfortable wearing them.

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mad_scientist
This topic probably doesn't really have anything to do with me since my sex and gender are bother female. But, personally, I get offended to be referred to as he and I prefer to be called she. I wouldn't mind anyone using gender neutral pronouns when talking about me, but it would raise questions if the person was speaking to someone else that already knew me. It's not really a question of proper use of pronouns, it's about how people already know you. If you know Bob is a dog, it wouldnt make sense to start suddenly calling Bob a cat... unless Bob told you he prefers to be called a cat now.

I often use gender neutral pronouns when talking about my friends to people who don't know my friends because I'm just secretive like that. But if I start switching from saying "they" to "he" then back to "they", it would confuse people. I'm all for mixing up the standards and getting people to think outside of the normal conventions of life, but not when it's going to confuse them. Utter confusion just drives people further into the safety of their boxes.

And I say use whatever pronouns you want in regards to yourself. They are just like any other label in life; They can stick to whomever feels most comfortable wearing them.

I agree, but calling a female or male by a gender-neutral pronoun is not like calling a dog a cat -- it's more like just not mentioning that it happens to be a dog. The whole point of gender-neutral pronouns is that they are supposed to make no statement as to the subject's gender. [/nitpick]

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silentdreamer

^-- Uh... you're right. My metaphors are off today. *cough* I have too much calcium in my brain, so it's not my fault :mellow:

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mad_scientist
^-- Uh... you're right. My metaphors are off today. *cough* I have too much calcium in my brain, so it's not my fault :mellow:

Calcium? Sounds painful...

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  • 2 weeks later...
Stupid question; what are some examples of gender neutral pronouns? I can't think of any that are commonly used.

They/It

'They' is used with varying regularity for singular, and there are debates about if that's okay or not. 'It' is considered highly offensive to most, because it implies the person being called 'it' is less of a person, but I do know those who prefer 'it' as their own pronoun. I'm hoping 'it' catches on, because maybe then it'll be less of an insult- so people will stop using it to insult transpeople and we don't have to worry about creating one. Of course, it's really hard for me to use, because of the connotations, so I'm not exactly helping it catch on.

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MissBiochemistry

Slightly OT: In the Finnish language there are no gender pronouns. There are just on "he/she" and then "it". This is actually very helpful in many situations when gender is not important. So gender pronouns are not necessary to exist at all. You can do without them just fine. But personally, I don't totally understand why use "they" for one person. For me, "they" is plural.

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mad_scientist
Slightly OT: In the Finnish language there are no gender pronouns. There are just on "he/she" and then "it". This is actually very helpful in many situations when gender is not important. So gender pronouns are not necessary to exist at all. You can do without them just fine. But personally, I don't totally understand why use "they" for one person. For me, "they" is plural.

It should be, but languages like English give very little choice. Some gender-neutral alternatives have been suggested to "they", but can look quite wkward in most conversation since so many people aren't familiar with them.

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