Blurring the Lines

[Charlieee]

Just to start off: this is going to be mostly verbal vomit. I'll try to make it sound nice and coherent once I've finished, but I can't guarantee that, haha. It'll probably also be very long.... Also a bit skewed, as I'm a trans person attempting to speak about cis experiences. I'll do my best and I'm sorry if I get things wrong.

This is a Gender Discussion forum. So far, most of the discussion has been about gender variance: genderqueer, trans, agender, etc. I'm actually very disappointed and surprised at the lack of cis gender discussion.

I'm not sure if this is a mindset that lots of people fall into: cis people, who generally don't have to work as hard as trans people to "prove" their gender, don't have as "strong" of a gender. I mean I know that this happens, at least subconsciously, with masculinity vs femininity: I went to a discussion led by Julia Serano where she pointed this out about the covers of books about each subject, or in scenes in moves about trans women (like Transamerica), where the femininity books (including her own, even) show people "performing" their gender, through putting on jewelry or applying makeup. This isn't limited to feminine people, though - in terms of trans men, how is wearing a binder or drawn-on facial hair different than wearing makeup?

So I don't know, do people think that cis people aren't as gendered because they're not as conscious as performing it? I'm not trying to say that I think that, because I don't, but I'm wondering if this is a common mentality.

Personally, I admit I often forget that cis people have problems with their gender identities/presentation as much as I do. I was reminded of this last night. I was driving to a work site with coworkers, and we got onto the subject of bathrooms and why there should be gender-neutral ones, and of course I was advocating for them because of all of the harassment of trans people that happens in bathrooms, and a cis female coworker was talking about how the line to the women's rooms are always so long, and that it's unfair that men never have to wait for the bathroom..

Well, it's not a great example, but it's what I got right now. It made me very angry, actually, that my experiences were ignored like that. I mean I remember the first time I went into the men's bathroom, I was the only one in there and I was still terrified. But now, writing this, I realize that that's completely unfair - what makes my frustrations with the bathroom any less important than my coworker's?

This is a really tricky subject, I realize. As I write this, a part of me is yelling at myself for defending cis privilege/ciscentricism. I'm not trying to do that. There are most definitely certain things that trans people have serious problems with dealing with, but that cis people don't deal with at all. I'm attempting to speak on a much more general level.

One of the major misconceptions about trans people is that they're exemplifying gender roles. All trans men are macho and all trans women are very girly. There are no effeminate trans men and no butch trans women. Obviously that's not true. And obviously that doesn't apply to cis people either... there are lots of effeminate cis men and lots of butch cis women of varying sexualities (are all butch women lesbians? No! etc etc).

So many cis people run into problems with their gender identity/presentation. Gender identity in employment protection, that doesn't only apply to trans people, but also to cis people who don't "properly" fulfill their gender expectations, like Shenoa Vild. People in general who don't live up to gender expectations of girly women and macho men are ridiculed and harassed by employers, the media, other people, parents, etc. I will be more than happy to rant about all of the strong defenses of the gender binary from when I worked in a toy store during high school, and the parents who would freak out if their assumed-cis children displayed unexpected gendered cues.

I guess that the point of this post is to remind everyone not to make invisible the gender-related problems that cis people face. And I want to open discussion to that, and for cis people to talk about their experiences, instead of just coming to this subforum to ask trans people about their experiences. This forum is coming up for evaluation soon, and I think it's a good idea in theory, considering the very frequent intersection between gender and sexuality. (I would even go so far as to suggest that this doesn't belong in Off-A, but in Musirants....) But the exclusionary nature of this forum really bothers me, the fact that it's constantly putting trans people under some Special Gender Expert spotlight, that's not cool.

As much as I hate to say this, everyone (regardless of one's gender, or whether it exists or not) is constantly being affected by gender, and that creates a lot of problems, especially for people who are also left out of an overly-sexualized culture. I think this place is a valuable resource for everyone who is negatively affected by gender in one way or another, and that is not just restricted to trans people.

Sorry if that wasn't coherent. I know this is a very touchy subject for some people, but I would like for this thread to remain as safe as possible. If you have a disagreement with someone, keep it civil, etc. Thanks.

[AllyCat]

Charlieee, I really appreciate this post. I am going to waffle on in response. Hopefully some of it will be enlightening.

I'm not sure if this is a mindset that lots of people fall into: cis people, who generally don't have to work as hard as trans people to "prove" their gender, don't have as "strong" of a gender.

How do you test how strong someone's gender is? If there were people with no strong inner experience of gender, they would get sorted into the "cisgender" category by default, because that's what everyone is assumed to be. But then, if you had cisgender people with strong gender identities, you could not tell them apart from cisgender people who were just going with the flow, because in both cases, they'd be OK with what was going on and wouldn't have to fight it. I worry about this in my own case: I don't feel intrinsically male or female, but why should I trust my introspection when it's never been put to the test?

"Cisgender" seems like kind of a catch-all category for anybody who doesn't rock the boat too hard, whatever the reason. Maybe that's OK; if we're talking about oppression based on gender identity, then "cisgender" seems like a good name for a kind of privileged position within an oppressive system. If we're talking about what is really going on at a psychological level, then I'm not so sure whether attributing an inner gender to absolutely everybody is going to the best explanation of how people work. But what do I know; I'm not a psychologist or a neurologist.

So I don't know, do people think that cis people aren't as gendered because they're not as conscious as performing it? I'm not trying to say that I think that, because I don't, but I'm wondering if this is a common mentality.

I have heard people say this. It seems silly to me though. If A is doing just as much gender performance as B, then aren't A and B equally gendered, even if A hasn't thought as hard about it about it because A hasn't had to?

Personally, I admit I often forget that cis people have problems with their gender identities/presentation as much as I do. I was reminded of this last night. I was driving to a work site with coworkers, and we got onto the subject of bathrooms and why there should be gender-neutral ones, and of course I was advocating for them because of all of the harassment of trans people that happens in bathrooms, and a cis female coworker was talking about how the line to the women's rooms are always so long, and that it's unfair that men never have to wait for the bathroom..

Well, it's not a great example, but it's what I got right now. It made me very angry, actually, that my experiences were ignored like that. I mean I remember the first time I went into the men's bathroom, I was the only one in there and I was still terrified. But now, writing this, I realize that that's completely unfair - what makes my frustrations with the bathroom any less important than my coworker's?

Wow, you are being way more charitable than I would be. I don't think having to wait in a line is anywhere on the order of worrying that you may be harrassed or beaten up. I realize that you are also trying to make a point that is not about bathrooms, but about gender roles more generally, though.

(Incidentally, about bathrooms: why do so many places put gender labels on single-stall bathrooms? Why do people obey them? I've been places with a huge line of women waiting outside the "women's" single-stall, while the "men's" single-stall has no line. Totally bizarre.)

there are lots of effeminate cis men and lots of butch cis women of varying sexualities (are all butch women lesbians? No! etc etc).

Yay! I feel included.

I guess that the point of this post is to remind everyone not to make invisible the gender-related problems that cis people face. And I want to open discussion to that, and for cis people to talk about their experiences, instead of just coming to this subforum to ask trans people about their experiences.

I live in a part of Australia and work in a branch of academia where people are OK with individual variation and nonconformity, so I tend to get off pretty light. Because I am not asexual, I sort of doubt if AVEN is a place for me to be posting my personal gender problems in the first place (many of which have to do with annoyance about my sexuality being misperceived, or worries about combining sexual relationships and career). But I would be really happy to discuss more cisgender issues; see if I can come up with something a bit more creative soon.

[Charlieee]

Charlieee, I really appreciate this post. I am going to waffle on in response. Hopefully some of it will be enlightening.

Heh, thank you. This came from a conversation with another (cis) AVENite, who helped me realize one of the problems I've had with this forum... (And that's what this is called, waffling? Haha, that's such a cool term. XD)

How do you test how strong someone's gender is? If there were people with no strong inner experience of gender, they would get sorted into the "cisgender" category by default, because that's what everyone is assumed to be. But then, if you had cisgender people with strong gender identities, you could not tell them apart from cisgender people who were just going with the flow, because in both cases, they'd be OK with what was going on and wouldn't have to fight it. I worry about this in my own case: I don't feel intrinsically male or female, but why should I trust my introspection when it's never been put to the test?

"Cisgender" seems like kind of a catch-all category for anybody who doesn't rock the boat too hard, whatever the reason. Maybe that's OK; if we're talking about oppression based on gender identity, then "cisgender" seems like a good name for a kind of privileged position within an oppressive system. If we're talking about what is really going on at a psychological level, then I'm not so sure whether attributing an inner gender to absolutely everybody is going to the best explanation of how people work. But what do I know; I'm not a psychologist or a neurologist.

Hm, I'm not sure whether I meant that as a self-defined or culturally-defined thing, hah. I mean, there are some people who very strongly identify with their gender (like a person whose class I was in, who felt threatened by the movement to eliminate gender, because she so strongly identified as a woman) and others who don't at all. And meanwhile there's an ongoing problem with people assumed to be not sexual or not gendered (I know this tends to happen with disabled people...)

And that's the problem. There are so many arguments over "cis"/"cisgender" in various gendered communities, hah. From cis women who didn't enjoy growing up with feminine gender expectations, etc etc. Personally, I tend to define "cis" as anyone who does not identify as transgender, because most (not all!) of the time, these people experience cis privilege, so it does fit both possible definitions. But as always it's relative and differs from person to person.... I hope that ambiguity doesn't make my post any more confusing, hah. It's a very uncomfortable term for a lot of people, and I'm still trying to come up with a satisfactory personal definition.

I have heard people say this. It seems silly to me though. If A is doing just as much gender performance as B, then aren't A and B equally gendered, even if A hasn't thought as hard about it about it because A hasn't had to?

Come to think of it, I have heard of that mentality with regard to straight people who haven't had to "come out" about their sexuality. And yeah. It is very stupid/silly.

Wow, you are being way more charitable than I would be. I don't think having to wait in a line is anywhere on the order of worrying that you may be harrassed or beaten up. I realize that you are also trying to make a point that is not about bathrooms, but about gender roles more generally, though.

(Incidentally, about bathrooms: why do so many places put gender labels on single-stall bathrooms? Why do people obey them? I've been places with a huge line of women waiting outside the "women's" single-stall, while the "men's" single-stall has no line. Totally bizarre.)

Haha, I was not as charitable at the time in my mind, sitting next to her in the car... XD But yeah, it was supposed to be representative of a bigger picture. My solution would be to have lots of individual gender-neutral bathrooms with both a toilet and a urinal. That seems like the easiest.

Yay! I feel included.

:D

I live in a part of Australia and work in a branch of academia where people are OK with individual variation and nonconformity, so I tend to get off pretty light. Because I am not asexual, I sort of doubt if AVEN is a place for me to be posting my personal gender problems in the first place (many of which have to do with annoyance about my sexuality being misperceived, or worries about combining sexual relationships and career). But I would be really happy to discuss more cisgender issues; see if I can come up with something a bit more creative soon.

I mean, I see this as a place to discuss the intersection of gender and a/sexuality in general, so I wouldn't have a problem with that, not at all. :)

[AllyCat]

Hm, I'm not sure whether I meant that as a self-defined or culturally-defined thing, hah. I mean, there are some people who very strongly identify with their gender (like a person whose class I was in, who felt threatened by the movement to eliminate gender, because she so strongly identified as a woman)

Wow: this is something I have no inner experience with, and would be really interested in hearing more about from somebody with a stronger inner experience of it. I've spoken to a man who felt similarly. He made the further claim that gender equality would be a bad idea if it threatened people's perceived identities, which kind of derailed the conversation, because it started to seem like he just wanted to make the world easier for himself at the expense of a whole lot of other people. I suggested that we allow gender but not make it mandatory, and he replied that not having social expectations around maleness would diminish his own sense of worth as a man.

I still think that's a bit unreasonable, but maybe I should ask: what social benefits do people gain from social gender expectations? And could these benefits also be had in a society with fewer or weaker expectations?

Being in a heterosexual relationship, I think living in two-gender system is able to provide me with some useful stuff. I have a set of female friends who hold female-only events, and my husband has a close male friend who is perfectly happy to invite me out beer-brewing or whatever, but doesn't mind if I'm too busy. And having these gender-segregated circles of friends serves an important social function: it lets makes sure get away from each other when necessary. That probably wouldn't be a need in the first place if "(usually heterosexual) couple" were not the basic social unit where I live, though. Having female-only social events is also good for me because my female friends seem much more outgoing and vivid when there are no men around: though again, if we didn't have a two-gender model, this probably wouldn't be true. So it seems like the needs are created by the gender expectations around me in the first place?

Hmm, possibly time for me to start a thread on this.

and others who don't at all. And meanwhile there's an ongoing problem with people assumed to be not sexual or not gendered (I know this tends to happen with disabled people...

Yes. I'd sharply separate "sexual" and "gendered", but for a lot of people, their gender is a big part of their sexuality.

And that's the problem. There are so many arguments over "cis"/"cisgender" in various gendered communities, hah. From cis women who didn't enjoy growing up with feminine gender expectations, etc etc. Personally, I tend to define "cis" as anyone who does not identify as transgender, because most (not all!) of the time, these people experience cis privilege, so it does fit both possible definitions. But as always it's relative and differs from person to person.... I hope that ambiguity doesn't make my post any more confusing, hah. It's a very uncomfortable term for a lot of people, and I'm still trying to come up with a satisfactory personal definition.

I will say that even if the concept of problematic, not having one seems vastly more problematic to me, because there's something there, we need some set of concepts to talk about it. As you pointed out before, the term "transgender" doesn't really say anything about how comfortable the person is conforming to masculine or feminine stereotypes, so I why should objecting to feminine stereotypes make someone not cisgender?

My parents were pretty good about not forcing ridiculous gender roles on me, at least until I grew up. I got encouraged to learn math and science, given durable clothes for running around and playing with bugs and stuff, and taken out for a lot of hiking/fishing excursions with my dad. A lot of my female friends say that their dads refused to do "boy stuff" with them, which I find horribly sad.

Haha, I was not as charitable at the time in my mind, sitting next to her in the car... XD But yeah, it was supposed to be representative of a bigger picture. My solution would be to have lots of individual gender-neutral bathrooms with both a toilet and a urinal. That seems like the easiest.

That seems like a reasonable and low-stress solution for everybody. (Except maybe building developers, who would have to pay more for walls than for those little plywood partitions? But if they can suck it up and pay for ramps and elevators to make buildings wheelchair accessible, I don't see why they can't suck it up and pay for bathroom walls too. Architecture is meant to suit people and not the other way around.)

I mean, I see this as a place to discuss the intersection of gender and a/sexuality in general, so I wouldn't have a problem with that, not at all. :)

Next time I think of something, then :)

[AVENCakes]

So I don't know, do people think that cis people aren't as gendered because they're not as conscious as performing it? I'm not trying to say that I think that, because I don't, but I'm wondering if this is a common mentality.

No, but they don't have gender dysphoria. They never have to fear someone'll check their driver's license and find out who they "really" are and harass them for it. They were taught how they were supposed to socialize and don't have to relearn how to walk, talk, etc.

Personally, I admit I often forget that cis people have problems with their gender identities/presentation as much as I do. I was reminded of this last night. I was driving to a work site with coworkers, and we got onto the subject of bathrooms and why there should be gender-neutral ones, and of course I was advocating for them because of all of the harassment of trans people that happens in bathrooms, and a cis female coworker was talking about how the line to the women's rooms are always so long, and that it's unfair that men never have to wait for the bathroom..

Well, it's not a great example, but it's what I got right now. It made me very angry, actually, that my experiences were ignored like that. I mean I remember the first time I went into the men's bathroom, I was the only one in there and I was still terrified. But now, writing this, I realize that that's completely unfair - what makes my frustrations with the bathroom any less important than my coworker's?

I've almost never seen a line to the women's room.

I've been a bit concerned about using the men's room, but never that terrified- I'm more concerned someone'll notice that I flip-flop. I once checked the men's room, saw it's state, tried the women's room, saw it was worse, and went back to the men's. Both were empty, but I'd probably do it even with a few people in there. When I just glance in it's not so bad- people can go "oh, they must've went into the wrong one by accident", but it's a bit harder to justify when I do that.

One of the major misconceptions about trans people is that they're exemplifying gender roles. All trans men are macho and all trans women are very girly. There are no effeminate trans men and no butch trans women. Obviously that's not true.

It kind of is, because it's mandatory for transition in a lot of situations. I know a transguy who can't do drag and things that he loves (and which cismen are allowed to do, even if it's not totally socially accepted)- because if it got back to his therapist/doctors, his treatment'd stop. Just like that. If he shows any female traits, he'll never be allowed to be his true self with the right body. Which is screwed up.

As far as I'm concerned, anything a cisman can do (crossdress, drag, enjoy androgyny, etc), a transman at any stage of transition should be allowed to do while still retaining the right to be treated as the man he is. But a lot of people don't believe htat. And it applies both ways.

I think gender roles are still worse for men in this country. A woman can wear pants, even use the men's room, without many problems. Men can't wear skirts, can barely wear kilts, and often can't even wear feminine clothes that are basically men's style if it looks too female/androgynous. Growing up- if the women's room was occupied, mom'd just go into the men's. At a college thing, we went innertubing on a river and there was a line for the women's room to get changed, so a bunch of girls ended up going into the men's room- even though men were still in line. It was a one-room thing, not a bunch of stalls, and locked, but you still didn't see any of the guy's do the same. I've never seen a guy use the women's room, and I don't think it's as okay for them to.

I guess that the point of this post is to remind everyone not to make invisible the gender-related problems that cis people face. And I want to open discussion to that, and for cis people to talk about their experiences, instead of just coming to this subforum to ask trans people about their experiences. This forum is coming up for evaluation soon, and I think it's a good idea in theory, considering the very frequent intersection between gender and sexuality. (I would even go so far as to suggest that this doesn't belong in Off-A, but in Musirants....) But the exclusionary nature of this forum really bothers me, the fact that it's constantly putting trans people under some Special Gender Expert spotlight, that's not cool.

I'll worry about that when transpeople stop getting killed. I know cispeople have problems- but I'm honestly not that concerned right now. Tell you what, cispeople, get us equal rights, get transition covered by insurance, make it so you can't discriminate based on gender identity and the statistics on our murders are drastically lessened, and we'll return the favor and get it clear that people shouldn't have gender roles/traits forced on them- regardless of their identity.

[Charlieee]

No, but they don't have gender dysphoria. They never have to fear someone'll check their driver's license and find out who they "really" are and harass them for it. They were taught how they were supposed to socialize and don't have to relearn how to walk, talk, etc.

There's a big difference between having a gender and having gender dysphoria. The things you mentioned are not examples of not being as gendered, they're examples of cis privilege, which no one is denying that cis people have.

I've almost never seen a line to the women's room.

I've been a bit concerned about using the men's room, but never that terrified- I'm more concerned someone'll notice that I flip-flop. I once checked the men's room, saw it's state, tried the women's room, saw it was worse, and went back to the men's. Both were empty, but I'd probably do it even with a few people in there. When I just glance in it's not so bad- people can go "oh, they must've went into the wrong one by accident", but it's a bit harder to justify when I do that.

Your personal experiences don't dictate everyone's experiences. My personal experience with bathroom is that it's very common to see the line for the women's room extend to outside of the bathroom (even down the hall, once or twice), with no line at all to the men's room. Part of the reason why I use the men's room is to avoid that line in general.

It kind of is, because it's mandatory for transition in a lot of situations. I know a transguy who can't do drag and things that he loves (and which cismen are allowed to do, even if it's not totally socially accepted)- because if it got back to his therapist/doctors, his treatment'd stop. Just like that. If he shows any female traits, he'll never be allowed to be his true self with the right body. Which is screwed up.

As far as I'm concerned, anything a cisman can do (crossdress, drag, enjoy androgyny, etc), a transman at any stage of transition should be allowed to do while still retaining the right to be treated as the man he is. But a lot of people don't believe htat. And it applies both ways.

I agree with you on that last part, but there is a HUUUUUUUGE difference between how you act because it's how you want to act, and how you act to please others. Using masculinity as an example, so many fathers force their sons into a sport instead of dancing lessons. And the son might excel at the sport, but he doesn't want to play that, he wants to dance....

Besides, these therapists that you mention are basing their practice off of the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care (now WPATH), which began to be developed in the 50s-60s-ish. So many trans people acted a certain way in order to get SRS, but that does not mean that that was their true nature. They were putting on a show in order to please the higher-ups. The medical industry has a terrible complex with trans people, making them jump through hoops.... Anyway, it's slowly being realized that HBS is not very healthy. A lot more people are switching over to an informed consent style of practice.

I'd definitely suggest Susan Stryker's Transgender History for more on the history of trans care. It's a great read.

I think gender roles are still worse for men in this country. A woman can wear pants, even use the men's room, without many problems. Men can't wear skirts, can barely wear kilts, and often can't even wear feminine clothes that are basically men's style if it looks too female/androgynous. Growing up- if the women's room was occupied, mom'd just go into the men's. At a college thing, we went innertubing on a river and there was a line for the women's room to get changed, so a bunch of girls ended up going into the men's room- even though men were still in line. It was a one-room thing, not a bunch of stalls, and locked, but you still didn't see any of the guy's do the same. I've never seen a guy use the women's room, and I don't think it's as okay for them to.

I think that each gender role has its equal share of problems. I think gender roles in general are a horrible idea, and I support the destruction of them all, whatever that takes. However, playing "oppression olympics" with them is not a useful tactic in breaking down gender roles. There's no contest for which gender has it worse. The examples I use are just examples.

I'll worry about that when transpeople stop getting killed. I know cispeople have problems- but I'm honestly not that concerned right now. Tell you what, cispeople, get us equal rights, get transition covered by insurance, make it so you can't discriminate based on gender identity and the statistics on our murders are drastically lessened, and we'll return the favor and get it clear that people shouldn't have gender roles/traits forced on them- regardless of their identity.

As a trans person, I do agree with you on some level with that. But.... honestly, I think that view is a little unfair and rather prima donna-ish, especially in a space like AVEN, where I'm sure the extreme majority of cis members are trans-allies and very supportive of trans-rights.

And, again, I'm going to stress the difference between having a gender and having cis privilege. Everyone with a gender has at least some problems with that gender. This is definitely tied into a societal perception of gender and the societal upholding of gender roles/expectations. EVERYONE who has a gender (and even those who don't have a gender!) are affected by that. And that "everyone" includes both trans and cis people. Cis people might not get shit because of their driver's license, but they'll get shit if their hair is the "wrong" length, or if they have the "wrong" interests, or a million other things.

It's an occasionally difficult but always important distinction to make.

[AVENCakes]

There's a big difference between having a gender and having gender dysphoria. The things you mentioned are not examples of not being as gendered, they're examples of cis privilege, which no one is denying that cis people have.

Never said cispeople can't be as gendered- that's a pretty weird statement, and I've never considered it to be true. I'd be surprised if anyone did. Well, not overly surprised, but they'd earn a weird look. However- I don't think gender is as big a deal to the majority of cispeople because of cis privilege. Notice the qualifiers "think" and "majority"- that's my opinion based on experiences, not the truth, and I don't htink it applies to everyone. Majority can be 50.0000000000001%, or even less if there are multiple groups, each of which is a smaller percentage.

Your personal experiences don't dictate everyone's experiences. My personal experience with bathroom is that it's very common to see the line for the women's room extend to outside of the bathroom (even down the hall, once or twice), with no line at all to the men's room. Part of the reason why I use the men's room is to avoid that line in general.

No, but it's hard to take that one seriously when I've never seen one.

I agree with you on that last part, but there is a HUUUUUUUGE difference between how you act because it's how you want to act, and how you act to please others. Using masculinity as an example, so many fathers force their sons into a sport instead of dancing lessons. And the son might excel at the sport, but he doesn't want to play that, he wants to dance....

Agreed. I think sports can help as a justification of dance, though. I don't know if it'st rue- but I heard a lot of sports players take ballet because it helps strengthen muscles. For example- a basketball player might take it because you have to leap high, while spinning, and mostly balancing on your toes- which aids in basketball where you have to jump high, sometimes spin to avoid other players, and the added balance certainly isn't a downside.

Which is barely related- but it kind of amuses me sometimes that a very "female" thing can improve a person's ability for a very "male" thing, when many people treat anything "female" as inferior and weakre.

Besides, these therapists that you mention are basing their practice off of the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care (now WPATH), which began to be developed in the 50s-60s-ish. So many trans people acted a certain way in order to get SRS, but that does not mean that that was their true nature. They were putting on a show in order to please the higher-ups. The medical industry has a terrible complex with trans people, making them jump through hoops.... Anyway, it's slowly being realized that HBS is not very healthy. A lot more people are switching over to an informed consent style of practice.

That's good. I think they used to require RLT, even for transwomen, before HRT- and that's simply not possible for a great many transpeople. They need the helpof hormones/surgery to pass, and telling them they can't get the right body unntil they pass isn't that fair.

As a trans person, I do agree with you on some level with that. But.... honestly, I think that view is a little unfair and rather prima donna-ish, especially in a space like AVEN, where I'm sure the extreme majority of cis members are trans-allies and very supportive of trans-rights.

Then they should have no problems helping transpeople get those rights, and I think "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" is a fair enough trade.

[ThePieMaker]

I guess I'm cisgendered. I'm a bit on the androgynous side, mentally, but I'm still cool with being female. That being said, I've been called a lesbian by many people since I was 9. I've heard people say that I could be a man before. It's definitely messed with me to an extent. But, I know it's not like that for the majority of women. I'm sort of the exception, I guess. It's become a joke though for me now. I say I have a man voice and my name is an anagram for "I looks manly". And other people joke about it with me... and I have been in all sincerity called manly. I say I'm fine with it, but sometimes behind the laughs I tear up a bit. It's not that I mind having masculine traits, I don't at all and I embrace those. But as someone who does identify as female, it hurts a little, because some people really mean it like it's a bad thing and look down on me because I'm just not feminine enough.

I don't want people to pity me, but this is a somewhat cisperson who has struggled with gender issues in relation to how others perceive me.

[AVENCakes]

I guess I'm cisgendered. I'm a bit on the androgynous side, mentally, but I'm still cool with being female. That being said, I've been called a lesbian by many people since I was 9. I've heard people say that I could be a man before. It's definitely messed with me to an extent. But, I know it's not like that for the majority of women. I'm sort of the exception, I guess. It's become a joke though for me now. I say I have a man voice and my name is an anagram for "I looks manly". And other people joke about it with me... and I have been in all sincerity called manly. I say I'm fine with it, but sometimes behind the laughs I tear up a bit. It's not that I mind having masculine traits, I don't at all and I embrace those. But as someone who does identify as female, it hurts a little, because some people really mean it like it's a bad thing and look down on me because I'm just not feminine enough.

I don't want people to pity me, but this is a somewhat cisperson who has struggled with gender issues in relation to how others perceive me.

My partner had a similar problem- they had a real problem with being told they look like a girl/where girly, because it was used as such an insult. If people just mentioned it and were perfectly fine with it, they probably wouldn't've had such a problem. I think there are a lot of things that, even if you're 100% okay with it in yourself, having someone point it out because as if it's negative will hurt. There's nothing wrong with a female being masculine- I'm sorry people look down at you for it. The world is messed up sometimes.

also- I've been called a lesbian. When I identified as male I was called gay. Apparently I'm gay, no matter what gender I am. I think that proves they don't care and aren't talking about who I'm attracted to- only htat I don't fit in.

[Elliott Ford]

also- I've been called a lesbian. When I identified as male I was called gay. Apparently I'm gay, no matter what gender I am. I think that proves they don't care and aren't talking about who I'm attracted to- only htat I don't fit in.

My partner and i have been verbally abused for being both kinds of gay because people can't really tell anymore what we are (i'm a pre-op trans man and sie's agender and presenting as gender-neutral).

I understand that gender can be a huge or small part of anyone's life, trans, cis, genderqueer or genderless, we can all find ourselves affected by gender in ourselves and/or others.

Many of the cis people i know have felt it necessary to question their beliefs about their own gender through contact with so many trans and genderqueer people (any one who knows me almost automatically comes into contact with other members of the trans community here at the University of York). They have come to better understandings of themselves as men and women because they've made the effort to make sure that that is what they are not just what they've always been told to be.

A cis woman i know had to be told by me that it was okay for her to present androgynously if she wanted to. She wasn't worried about somehow "invalidating" her identity as a woman, she was worried about being somehow offensive to her trans friends. I told her that a huge part of being trans is the idea that people should be able to EXPRESS THEMSELVES however they want and that extends to clothing.

I support the idea that people should be able to wear and do whatever they feel like wearing and doing, regardless of sex and gender. The reason i no longer wear women's clothing isn't because i don't think men should not be "allowed" to or because those clothes might somehow "emasculate" me or jeopardise my transition, no, i know i'm a boy no matter what i'm wearing. it's not even that i wouldn't "pass" as male if i wore them, it's getting so that i just might. The reason i cannot currently wear women's clothing is because i associate them with the feeling of being "trapped" into a gender role and expression that i wasn't meant to have, it's caused by the dysphoria.

a bigendered friend of mine, J, described this feeling well. When she's female she wears skirts. None of the other women she works with wear skirts but when she's female she expects to be wearing "What female J wears not what male J wears" and it just feels wrong to her otherwise. Similarly, i expect myself to wear what Elliott / William wears not what My-Birth-Name would wear.

Sorry for that long digression. the point was pretty much that i reckon one day i'll feel confident enough to cross-dress.

A gay man i know spent years avoiding doing anything "effeminate" in case anyone thought he was gay. Since coming out he's started growing his hair and bought several pink shirts. Now, being gay isn't a gender but it's clear that he was experiencing problems relating to gender expression - namely the ridiculous idea that only gay men are effeminate. or, indeed, that anyone with a non-standard gender expression is necessarily gay. this affects people of all sexualities should they try to show their sexuality via their gender expression or just be themselves? That's an example of who the expression of gender can affect everyone.

[Sabriel]

Firstly, can I just say that as a (probably) cisgendered female I've never felt excluded from this forum, or that it was only for trans people - I've found it really interesting to read and comment on some of the stuff going on here, and I definitely think it should stay.

I've found that cispeople do have gender presentation problems/issues, although obviously nowhere near the problems trans people do. For example, when I go on a night out clubbing, I'm expected to wear a dress, skirt, short shorts or some other feminine/revealing outfit. One girl I know never does this, and always wears skinny jeans with a shirt or t-shirt. By no means is she masculine, but she's still considered 'weird', and personally I'd feel like I was being looked down on or looked at as a 'freak' for doing that - and I'd love to sometimes! Similarly I know a couple of girls who aren't going to my 6th form leaver's dinner/prom because they don't like wearing dresses. Sure, they could turn up in trousers and a glamorous top, but it would take a bit of courage to do that as they'd stand out, and often the girls who don't like wearing dresses feel that way because they're a bit shy to start with.

I don't really have too many gender issues, though. I call myself cisgendered because I don't have a problem with being female, but I don't strongly identify with it a lot of the time. In some ways my asexuality relates to this, as not wanting to have sex makes me associate less with a lot of the stereotypes about women where I live.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Gender expectations and stereotypes do suck. I'm of the opinion that you should wear and do what you want...However society rarely sees it that way :/

[AVENCakes]

A cis woman i know had to be told by me that it was okay for her to present androgynously if she wanted to. She wasn't worried about somehow "invalidating" her identity as a woman, she was worried about being somehow offensive to her trans friends. I told her that a huge part of being trans is the idea that people should be able to EXPRESS THEMSELVES however they want and that extends to clothing.

I actually know an androgyne who got pissy because there was a place where the style was to dress androgynously. Their complaint was that they felt these people were somehow lessening the validity of their gender identity by dressing as androgynes to attract mates rather than out of actual dysphoria. So I can see where she got that idea, and am sad to say I know a person who could cause it.

I can kind of understand their annoyance- but above that I fully agree that everyone should be allowed to express themselves however they want. I'm not even opposed to nudity! Just, y'know, prefer people wouldn't... *clears throat and shuffles papers* But I definitely agree that anywhere men can go topless- everyone should be allowed to go topless.

The reason i no longer wear women's clothing isn't because i don't think men should not be "allowed" to or because those clothes might somehow "emasculate" me or jeopardise my transition, no, i know i'm a boy no matter what i'm wearing. it's not even that i wouldn't "pass" as male if i wore them, it's getting so that i just might. The reason i cannot currently wear women's clothing is because i associate them with the feeling of being "trapped" into a gender role and expression that i wasn't meant to have, it's caused by the dysphoria.

I'm the same way, but the avoidance of female things is actually grating on me, becuase I went from fully being able to express femininity when I wanted to never being able to due to a combination of my mom being an IDIOT *coughs* and the dysphoria at anything notably female-related.

I figured out why boy things don't have the same effect, too, they don't remind me of what I do have, as girl things do, they only remind me of what I neither have nor want- which is fine by me. I don't know if any other genderqueer/neutrois feel the same way, but that's how I am.