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Ace and Gender connection?


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I guess I'll start this topic over here in the gender subforum...

though, I have a feeling now with the gender threads so tucked away, maybe only the peeps who will see this would be those who are more trans or andro oriented. (like in moving forward in that way).

I think that since finding AVEN, I have been analyzing a lot of stuff in regards to other puzzle pieces that make up how I move about in my daily life. When I came onto AVEN, I was glad to find other people thought about gender a lot as well.

I guess I can't help but wonder how much of my gender presentation is related to my asexuality tho.

I feel in some ways, a bit of a shift has occurred inside because of this. Like a shift to being maybe more comfortable biologically with my body.

Even though there has been a bit of shift inside of me, however when I look in the mirror I don't see a change--tho I guess i sort of expect to. *laughs*

I've been thinking for awhile that maybe some of my androgyny or presentation of "non-female" has been related to me maybe communicating my ace-ness?

I still think I feel comfortable being visually non-feminine because, well, I just don't need don't need to go around advertising "attractive" in that way. I am not interested in landing someone who would see me as a sexual object/"female", or would see me as someone who would yes be interested in having sex on a regular basis.

Though my gender appearance has not changed... maybe because there is no comfortable way for that/or no logical reason to... However, I am thinking, what if I should date someone? I guess i mean, date someone ace? And what if they were cool about me not binding? (I was talking to someone not too long ago who I thought was cool in relating to me in regards to gender and asexuality, but I got the feeling that while I was now just wanting to just accept and work with this body I have, that they were going more tight on shifting on theirs, and I didn't know how they would feel/or how I would feel if I was working on accepting on working with this body of mine-- and maybe they might be like, um, EGD could you go back to being more andro or bind 24-7?)

I am 31, almost 32, and I think sometimes I pretty much make myself have unnecessarily negative feelings about my body and my weight, and keeping myself more on the less curvy side can sometimes be tough on me (well, tougher as I get older). I have mentioned it before that I wonder if my quest for androgyny has been going hand in hand with my body dysmorphic la laa la, or even if I was borderline sometimes starting to give myself an eating disorder.

Um, I'm not the skinniest person at all... so I am not the most successful andro anyhoo... *laughs* but yes it happens sometimes that I get mistaken/pass. I think I guess I just like not being excessive/curvy... and sort of getting to define myself in other ways than gender...

*shrugs and just gets this out*

I guess when if first wrote this, I wondered if anyone else had noticed a change as well. Maybe arriving here more interested in not appearing female, but then letting it go a bit... because maybe now they knew/had a name for their asexualtiy or way to communicate it now.

Or maybe people who have dated other aces, if they have found they don't mind looking feminine a bit at times then..

*hugs to anyone who bothered to read thru this*

--EGD

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I don't have a similar experience relating to androgyny, but coming to terms with my asexuality has helped me get over some issues about how I present myself. For example, I no longer worry about looking 'feminine' or 'attractive' all the time, because you know what? Sometimes I just like to wear a baggy t-shirt, jeans and sneakers, and if people don't see me as attractive then I don't care. It's taken off quite a bit of the pressure I feel as a teenager to look perfect all the time.

I've become more interested in androgyny through being on this forum though, and found that a lot of the time I'm very attracted to androgynous people. I'm not sure why.

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I'm not really sure of what all to write in response to this thread, but I wanted you to see that I'd read it, and yes, I have felt a change of that sort since I discovered my asexuality. ^_^

I do find that I try to not look very feminine as a way of discouraging attention; I don't want anyone to look at me and find me to be sexually attractive. It's something I've always done, unconsciously; knowing I'm asexual now just helps me understand why I do it.

I wouldn't mind at all if someone I was dating decided they wanted to look more masculine/feminine than they normally do, but that's because I'm attracted to other androgynous people so I like that sort of thing. I do feel my being androgynous has a lot to do with being asexual. It's like the physical act of sex is linked to gender; without sex my gender has wound up somewhere in limbo. Or at least, that's how I think of it.

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I've become more interested in androgyny through being on this forum though, and found that a lot of the time I'm very attracted to androgynous people. I'm not sure why.

Same :) or to feminine guys. I got this 'aesthetic taste' :ph34r:

I'm not androgynous so I'm not much of help here :(

But yeah, since I realized I'm asexual (or rather, since I found AVEN), I don't feel pressured to look more feminine than I am and don't feel like a 'weirdo' because I'm not in sexual relationship (or any other kind of relationship, for that matter).

Cheers :)

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I definitely have felt a desire to appear "non-female" since identifying as asexual.

...Though for me instead of androgynous, I feel more masculine than anything. I've always felt that way, but a lot more now than before.

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I know a hypersexual neutrois, I think most trans people are sexual, a lot take their sexuality into account when choosing how to transition (I know an MtF who is keeping her penis because her partner would miss it). So, there might be soemthing of one- but I wouldnt' say a direct one.

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KayleeSaeihr

There is something I wrote somewhere (not sure where)... about my theory of how asexuality and gender interplay. I'll expand on it here.

With sexuality gender is a huge deal. Whether you're straight, homo, or even bi (pan is an obvious exclusion which I'll explain later), your orientation is based on gender; if you're straight you're attracted to the opposite gender of your own, homo, you're attracted to your own gender.

(As far as I know) With many asexuals (and to some degree pan) there is no attraction, not in a sexual sense at least. As such gender is less of an issue. And with gender being a non-issue it is no longer needed as a form of self-expression; self-expression becomes free of gender.

That's my theory as to why many asexuals have a more fluid gender expression, or certainly non-binary. Obviously there are qualifiers to this and exceptions and so forth, such as myself being asexual but dearly wanting my gender expression to female (well tomboyish not stereotypically).

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Which comes first? Gender variation or asexuality?

These are my own observations, based on my own experience as well as those of others I have learned about during my several years at AVEN.

It seems to me that among asexuals there is very often a pattern which begins in childhood. Girls will be seen as tomboys and boys will be seen as sissies, when, in reality, they are merely children whose gender identity is not strongly polarized in either direction. I know that was certainly the case for me.

There is a lot of truth to the old adage that opposites attract. I don't see this being acknowledged very often here at AVEN, but it really is true. The polarized masculine and feminine genders complement each other extremely well and help to create a strong and stable family unit when/if both people are secure in their identities. Sexual attraction is part of it, of course, but division of labor and personal responsibility in the relationship as expected by both parties can also be a big part of gendered behavior that actually helps the relationship.

I'm not going into whether gender behavior is innate or imprinted since that isn't the point. The point is that it WORKS to help reliably perpetuate the species. Yay for breeders ... !

Masculine and feminine genders work together just like electrical plugs and sockets, so good for them. They can find easy fits all over the place as far as sexual attraction goes, so they mainly have to focus on finding compatible personalities.

For those who are NOT gender-polarized, however, the situation is different. We don't have opposites. We have neither positive nor negative magnetic fields because we haven't been magnetized at all. There are no easy or automatic relationship fits for those with non-polarized genders. Younger people in particular will find it bewildering when their peers begin to mature into the reproductive phase of their respective polarized genders. The lack of polarized sexual attraction is further complicated by feelings of social alienation and isolation once the differences between the gender-variant people and their former peers become obvious and inescapable.

Sometimes I think its a wonder that gender-variant people ever manage to survive highschool! This is the stage of life when the need to be accepted by a peer group is stronger than at any other time. I think that SOME (not all) of the teens who choose to identify as asexuals are reacting to this feeling of isolation and are emotionally distancing themselves from all kinds of sexual relationships as a defense mechanism. I see nothing at all wrong with this. It makes perfect sense, especially in this overly sex-focused society. Waiting a while, observing others and learning about human sexuality is the logical thing to do in case of doubt, and I personally think that gender-variant people are, on average, MUCH more knowledgeable about human sexuality than those who are gender-polarized - whether they finally end up identifying as gay or trans or bi-gendered or any other possible identity, and whether they are asexual or not.

Anyway, I have rambled on and tossed out some of my thoughts on this subject. I think there is a very STRONG connection between asexuality and a lack of polarized gender identity.

I will check back occasionally to see how this thread progresses. Good topic, BTW!

-GB

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Great post GBRD143. What you said related to my own experiences a lot. I'm glad someone has put a lot more thought into this than I have!

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I think gender is something we are born with, it isn't something that can be 'made', 'set up' or anything like this.

As for

For those who are NOT gender-polarized, however, the situation is different. We don't have opposites. We have neither positive nor negative magnetic fields because we haven't been magnetized at all. There are no easy or automatic relationship fits for those with non-polarized genders.

I'm genderless and used to think 'if female matches with male, what/who matches with me (genderless)? Maybe both male and female? Maybe other genderless or maybe androgynous?'.

I stopped considering this when I got the thought that there're couples in which two partners are equally (or almost equally) masculine or feminine. There are masculine males attracted to masculine females , masculine males attracted to masculine males, feminine females attracted to feminine females and feminine females attracted to feminine males. So they are rather like 'clones' than the 'opposite poles'.

So it depends on personal preferences, I guess, not on one's gender, since not everyone looks for someone who's opposite to them.

Regards

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I think gender is something we are born with, it isn't something that can be 'made', 'set up' or anything like this.

I'm sorry, but I might have to disagree with you there. The research I've read would indicate differently. You might want to check out:

Gender - R.W. Connell (2002)

Gender Studies: Terms and Debates - Cranny-Francis, Waring, Stavropoulos, Kirkby (2003)

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I think gender is something we are born with, it isn't something that can be 'made', 'set up' or anything like this.

I'm sorry, but I might have to disagree with you there. The research I've read would indicate differently. You might want to check out:

Gender - R.W. Connell (2002)

Gender Studies: Terms and Debates - Cranny-Francis, Waring, Stavropoulos, Kirkby (2003)

I know this, as I study this at Uni.

But if it really was like this, then transgendered person (lets say FtM), who's learnt that s/he is a male, could also re- learn and become fully female.

I agree that you may learn how to be male or female, I agree that society considers some characteristics as feminine and masculine, but I disagree that the way we consider ourselves is 'set up' by society or anything like this. There are girls that behave like boys, but still consider themself females. And there're children who know they feel their gender is different than their sex, and still refuse to be female (in FtM example), even if s/he was raised to be a girl sinve s/he was born.

Gender roles came from sex differences, and gender roles are nothing but stereotypes.

I was born genderless, I'm conscious about it since I was 2. And there's no book that can change this.

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I didn't spend a lot of time studying this at uni, but my personal opinion is that our gender is a combination of traits we are born with, and experiences we have in really early in life. (ie. well before Erik Erikson's fifth stage of psychosocial development).

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I didn't spend a lot of time studying this at uni, but my personal opinion is that our gender is a combination of traits we are born with, and experiences we have in really early in life. (ie. well before Erik Erikson's fifth stage of psychosocial development).

Well, I agree that in sometimes (not always) a child can learn some behaviour typical for it's gender and this will stay till the end od it's life, but I disagree that this learned behaviour fully defines person's gender identity.

Let's say there's a little, 2 year- old girl, someone tells her she should play with dolls because she's a girl, she likes playing with dolls so she assumes that she is a girl. If someone told her that boys play with dolls and that she is a boy, she would assume that she is a boy. She grows with this thought and feels that she should be a boy, but she has female body. This girl would make FtM, if someone was telling her that she's a boy and that she behaves like a boy for many years, in various patterns of life.

Nothing changes that this girl likes to play with dolls. She is just the way she is. But people who lived before her categorized some behaviours as masculine and feminine and the child learns this, and begins to label it's behaviours, then realizes she acts mostly like a girl, so she wants to learn more of feminine behaviours. To me, something like gender doesn't exist. It's just a label that someone made years ago when realized physical differences between men and women. This person made stereotypes that women act 'such and such' and this stereotype is still 'alive', and if someone doesn't fit into it, people assume 'she isn't a true woman', that's why parents want their children to fit into this 'stereotype' and teach grls to act like girls and boys to act like boys.

Regards

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Hello.

Since finding AVEN I have began to get to know myself a little better.. or maybe accept myself, but not with what gods gave me, but with what I'd rather have to be happy. One of my first posts was the drag thread. Woooo BEARD. I'd love to have a beard I'd tell myself, and so I got the art props and got my facial hair did. I loved it. I suited it and it felt right.

Here's some personal information which is making me squirm but I feel okay to share with AVEN folk. I've always hated my breasts, hate too strong? Nope. They're just ughhh. Before I binded I suppose my hatred of my breasts was less intense. But the first time I ever binded and looked down at my flat appearing chest I was so happy and thought.. Yeah, this is how it should be. Now when I'm nekkid, and I look down and see my breasts I want to cry, they shouldn't be there, they feel so alien and wrong and pointless. They make me feel bad and uncomfortable in my own skin.

One of my biggest issues with myself and something which leads to my lack of social skills (who'd have guessed? but yeah, I'm pretty reclusive, I used to never leave the house, but since binding and what not I've become a lot more confident in myself and leave the house on a daily basis), anyway my issue is my body, that I have to say has lead to eating disorders. My lady hips and my lady thighs are the things that get me down the most. I want the flesh to be gone from them, I don't want this femine appearing body. I have an imagine in my head of what I look like, but when I see photos that show my womanly curves I get so down it's unreal. I've had eating disorders throughout my life, nothing diagnosed mind, but I'm sure it's not healthy vomitting after every meal and not eating for days.

I've put my body and myself through so much, instead of hurting myself I think it's about time I went out and changed it to how it's supposed to be.

I was talking to someone not long ago about my realising of transness, and I got the impression they weren't too impressed with my findings, and mentioned a documentary they saw about FtMs transisioning and out of the 8 or whatever who did it, only one was happy and the others weren't pleased by their new umm place in life and the new rules around being in the male world. Which got me thinking, whenever I go on FtM sites I don't connect, when being giving tips on how to pass, or act like a guy it doesn't connect with me. Then I got confused, but then I figured it out. I am not trying to be anyone else, I am not running away from myself, I am not trying to be a man, I just want to be myself. I look at guys in the street and think "oh, I dont want to be like you" but then I realise transitioning isn't me turning into generic man, it's me just getting the body, and the look I'll be comfortable in. The day when I can stand naked in front of the mirror and not want to cry (well I'll have cut offs- nevernude) and be okay with my body, will indeed be a fine dandy day.

This is just my personal thing, and everyones different, and I'm going to sound like a big gush gush, but everyone needs to just find what makes them happy and comfortable. For me it's getting a body that just feels right. I have no intentions of changing my attitude, or my swagger or anything else, I am me whatever it is, I just want to be happy. If someone can come to terms with their female body and be happy with it, then that's awesome too.

Oh and ace and relation to gender point: I think my asexuality makes this whole thing a lot easier. What with the *cough* genitalia part. I do not want a penis, I do not care about sexual organs, mine will be hidden away, so any transformation it makes, as gross as it most likely will be, wont be much of an issue as no one see's it. Not even me: nevernude

Oh and thanks for the hug :D

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I didn't spend a lot of time studying this at uni, but my personal opinion is that our gender is a combination of traits we are born with, and experiences we have in really early in life. (ie. well before Erik Erikson's fifth stage of psychosocial development).

Gender is not traits. Whoever told you that is painfully inaccurate.

The traits can be learned and they can be born- but traits are not gender any more than roles or stereotypes are. Gender is an inherent thing, and it's impossible to describe. I know a married couple who tried to fit their gender roles then realized that the opposite was true- so now the man is a househusband, the woman goes to work, and when they have children the man'll be the stay-at-home dad and fulfill the "female" roles, while the woman will fulfill the "male". They're both cis- but find that their traits/preferred roles fit the opposite sex, and they're fine with that. If gender was roles and traits- then you'd assume the 'woman' was actually FtM and the 'man' really MtF- but that's not the case, because that's not what gender is.

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*hugs for EGD, too*

You've said just what I've been working through in my head for the last few days, which is a bit uncanny. I've never deliberately dressed as a female, I don't "do" dresses, the skirts I used to wear for work when it was too hot for jeans have now been swopped for shorts, instead, and I don't see myself as a woman, and never have. I'm bio-female, too, but I class myself as genderqueer; I take each day by the way I feel when I wake up, and more often than not, I'm out in mens clothing and don't care what people think of me. I've got an almost flat chest so I'm fortunate enough to not need to bind, and my hair is cropped like yours; the stares I get of confusion from young children no longer bother me. I do think my gender is related to feeling asexual, as well. Actually, it's got to the point where I'm starting to think that I'd be comfortable in a relationship with someone who just feels right, no matter what sex/gender they are. I think Saeihr made sense with his theory of it!

Oh, and I just feel Sassy needs a hug, too. I have no intention of changing any of my body by surgery, but I can empathise with you hating your breasts. Take care.

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I totally agree with RDraconis.

@ sassy

I can imagine how you feel, I really wish you the best of everything and that one day you'll be fully happy with your body. Good luck :)

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ThePieMaker

I think my gender weirdness has a lot to do with my asexuality and some to do with my upbringing. Sure, on occasion I like to get dressy a look all lady-like, but on occasion I also like to don a tie and sweatervest with a newsboy cap. I was always one to get guy roles in plays and I think it's because I never presented myself as very feminine. Or, I can present myself that way, I just don't act that way.

Over the past few months I've been looking at my gender too. AVEN is helping me get to understand myself even more than I ever thought it would.

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Alright, it seems like I may have had a few wires crossed :P

I think I was talking more about gender as a social construct (ie. how we are perceived and the institutions that accompany this), which is not quite on the same page as the rest of the thread!

Sorry!

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KayleeSaeihr
Good topic, BTW!

I agree, excellent topic!

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Elliott Ford

First point - Sassyeggs, *hugs* and :cake: for expressing exactly how i feel. The body i have is just plain WRONG, i hate my breasts. the only nearly positive thing i ever thought about them was when i was still trying to "be" a girl and that was "These are getting bigger, maybe now people will be less likely to notice that i'm not really a girl" That was the only reason i ever wanted a feminine shape or feminine clothing etc. - to stop people noticing that i wasn't "really" a girl as i had an intuitive idea that this was a Bad Thing and would be held against me. thankfully, i'm now living as a man and have been for a good 6 months now!

To the OP:

I used to dress in over-sized non-feminine clothing to avoid sexual attention when i was a teenager. In five years of secondray school, i wore a skirt rather than trousers just once - and it was ankle length. I didn't trust the boys there as far as i might be able to throw them (and not without reason :'( I was the only white person (and also female bodied) in most of my classes and this got me rather too much unwanted attention. i had to get a restraining order on one guy for stalking me :'( )

This trend continued at college, mainly because i didn't trust guys. i blamed the Muslim upbringing but i believe that my tendency to cover up my body, dress for comfort rather than appearance and hide my femininity was more a combination of my asexuality and my transness.

Living as a man, i don't really need to try to / not to look attractive. or possibly since i have no concept of what is and is not an attractive man, i don't know how to avoid being one :D

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*hugs and :cake: back* Thank you guys, you're awesome.

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Oh my god, so many people have come in with cool things to say. :faint:

(So yeah, *hugs again to everyone--really appreciative hugs*)

Hey, TTauri, on my profile page I list "dandy/genderqueer"... *smiles* I guess i just don't ever want to completely identify as one gender/sex.

Or maybe as GBRD would say a single/polarized gender.

I think it was back in January/Dec I was talking really closely to someone who I felt I really resonated with on the gender and asexuality front, and I felt also like... worried what if you know... we were to meet each other and they maybe liked me when I did the binding, but what if I got home and wanted to just chill out and not have it on? Like what if they were freaked out/disappointed by my female body? (but I mean I get like this all the time in my daily life, or thinking about meeting Kelly Kelly, whatev <_< )

I don't know... I guess I want someone to like me for my mind, feel okay with the fact I am a bit genderqueer/dandyish... and yet not hold this crazy standard that I would have this perfectly androgynous body that would match my mind.

I mean, yes I would love to have that myself, and I am sure I am the source of some of my insecurity in how someone would react in relation to my body...

So yeah, I guess with this other person (dec/jan person) decided they were going to MTF it, and then Sassy decided to FTM it--and I guess I felt sort of panicky alone because i guess I really resonated/identified with both of them. I suppose I was like... yay here are two people I can talk about all my gender stuff with... and it be cool that as much as I think about this sort of stuff... it's cool that I am not having surgery... that I'm not alone. Now I sort of feel again that insecurity of being this freak who won't commit to being hardcore about my gender presentation--- or that I am deluding myself and just going to end up out here in "no man's land" offending and being ostracized by both sides--the people who I really relate to who are moving forward with picking a gender/sex and then those who were more comfortable with their gender/biological sex to begin with. >.<

I guess this is stirring up my fear of will I ever truly find a group I belong in? I think AVEN is really the closest thing in a long time that I feel that way about.

(edits out stuff about person I like--and gender reasons for why)

______________________

Oh and Sassy, *hugs you tentatively* I don't know why you quoted me to myself without mentioning my name, and I am sorry if I offended you that day I told you about that documentary. And I wasn't referring to you at the beginning of this thread--however, I don't think I should mention the other person since it is their personal decision to post that or not on here. I just wanted to pursue this topic in a separate thread over in this forum so you wouldn't think I was trying to go into your space/not give you space in your thread.

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Oh and Sassy, *hugs you tentatively* I don't know why you quoted me to myself without mentioning my name, and I am sorry if I offended you that day I told you about that documentary. And I wasn't referring to you at the beginning of this thread--however, I don't think I should mention the other person since it is their personal decision to post that or not on here. I just wanted to pursue this topic in a separate thread over in this forum so you wouldn't think I was trying to go into your space/not give you space.

oh that's cool. I wasn't so sure you were referring to me, (but I admit I'm a little embarressed with my ego concidering that you were) but I thought I'd bring that up and I didn't want to name you as you may have been uncomfortable with it. I was going for discretion... maybe I'm not too good at discretion, I'm a pretty blunt being I suppose. *hugs you back all in your face like*

Oh and I'm sorry if that offended you. I really wasn't being arsey or owt. ><

Ase and eating disorders eh? I don't think I'm ready for that one...

I do really like this thread, and I don't think you should feel so alone with where you are.. but then again that's easy to say isn't it. I dont think you're a freak with your ideals. In fact theres another member who I think can relate on the Andie side. Next time they're on I'll link them to this thread so they have the chance to voice some things.

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Just in case you wanted to talk about eating disorders and asexuality, here's Katja's thread.

I feel I shouldn't post here, but I want to say that you, Cale (or anyone else, for that matter) aren't a freak or anything like this.

I don't think my body 'matches' me, but since I can do completely nothing about it, I go along with it, and I think it could be worse, so I just accept it and even like it at some point.

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Guest Cale bait
Just in case you wanted to talk about eating disorders and asexuality, here's Katja's thread.

I feel I shouldn't post here, but I want to say that you, EGD (or anyone else, for that matter) aren't a freak or anything like this.

I don't think my body 'matches' me, but since I can do completely nothing about it, I go along with it, and I think it could be worse, so I just accept it and even like it at some point.

Hi Veisha, I almost sent her a PM or posted in confessions that I sort of thought it might be cool for her to come look at this thread...

However, I guess I didn't want to just be like, hey Katja you are the poster child of asexuality and eating disorders. *laughs in cringey way*

*will glance thru it*

thanks

__________________________

*thanks Sassy and Veisha for both not thinking i am a one-off freak*

(Oh and would you link that person? thanks Sass)

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ThePieMaker

In honor of this thread, I decided to put away all of my hesitations and wore my tie and sweatervest to work today and pinned back my hair. I like to think I look quite androgynous today. I want to gallivant around town and show off the look. *but admits she's wearing a pink polka dot bra she just got from Victoria's Secret under it all*

*sigh* I wish I would dress like this more, but I get so sick of the lesbian comments from my family...

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Just a word more about eating disorders- we all know how dangerous they are, but the causes of eating disorders may vary. Common reason is that girls want to be 'hot models' and guys want to be athletists, but the story is different when asexuality and/or gender identity comes to play. As some of you said, we may want to look androgynous, or we don't want to be attractive to others, or we have any other reasons. I'm saying that even if you can relate to others with eating disorder, you not necessarily are able to relate to the cause of this disorder (and various causes require various ways to deal with disorder), sometimes these causes very differ from each other.

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Guest EGDingCale'sTeapot
In honor of this thread, I decided to put away all of my hesitations and wore my tie and sweatervest to work today and pinned back my hair. I like to think I look quite androgynous today. I want to gallivant around town and show off the look. *but admits she's wearing a pink polka dot bra she just got from Victoria's Secret under it all*

*sigh* I wish I would dress like this more, but I get so sick of the lesbian comments from my family...

Awww, Ally :wub:

*hearts you more*

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