Seeing GENDER rather than SEX

[Elliott Ford]

A few examples of what i'm on about:

Firstly, if "gaydar" is how gay people spot each other then i think i have a very strong "trans-dar". I'm not talking about being able to tell post-ops from cis people, i'm not entirely sure i can. I am consistently seeing and treating transgendered and genderqueer people as their gender rather than as their biological sex or even their presentation. People come out to me as trans and I feel relieved myself for knowing there was a reason i was thinking of them as something different to what they outwardly appeared to be. A guy i know came out to me yesterday, he's presenting as female and i'm only the third person he's told and i wasn't surprised, found it the easiest thing in the world to refer to him as a "boy"...

My partner is genderless. I've ALWAYS seen hir as such and literally cannot see hir as female eventhough sie has no problem being referred to as such. Words like "girlfriend" feel very strange when i use them about hir. Because they are just wrong. I can't see hir like that and don't see hir like that. There are behaviours i know that i only do with women i like, just tiny peices of body language that i use to show affection, which i hardly ever do with hir. Same with the male-specific ones. I can and do use both for hir but most of the time i don't know how i'm doing it but i'm not treating hir in a gendered way at all.

My latest "adopted" sister is a transgirl. Pre-just-about-everything, defines her gender presentataion as "fail". But has an ambigious girl's name and has been using female pronouns since before i met her. I show her affection in the aforementioned female-specific way and always have. I was not introduced to her in any way that would lead me to think she was a girl, quite the contary people were still getting both her name and pronoun wrong yet i have never once in my life seen her as male, not even if i try, i cannot do it. She and i like to spend lots of time together because when we're together it's obvious (to us at least) which one's the boy and which one's the girl eventhough we both currently look pretty andrgynous.. the body language thing again. We were shopping for clothes for her the other day and i'm pretty sure the assistant we talked to had no idea which of us was interested in buying the dress that we were asking about :)

She still uses the male toilets here. The other week, she was already in there and i came in. She knew it was me yet was really surprised that i didn't use the urinals. She describes it as knowing in her head that i'm trans and precisely what that means ie. that i'm female-bodied and yet seeing me so completely as male that she's surprised every time my body does something female-specific. it was the same when i told her i had period pains, a long moment of shock until she worked out "yeah, his body does that" and i worked out "oh, her body doesn't".

It's one of the things you're apparently not supposed to say to a trans person "I see you as a real man / woman" but i've discovered that it's a really beautiful feeling when someone does.

Some days in the past, i've felt really bad about being trans like "wake up and look at yourself, what the heck are you doing.." kind of bad. But spending time with one of the many people who can see me and appreciate me as male sorts it out. Because with them i just know, this person is treating me properly, this why i want this - because i want everyone to treat me like this person does.

[mad_scientist]

That's really awesome. I treat everyone as genderless, even though it confuses the hell out of most people -- I can't even get the appropriate behaviours right based on physical sex. Being able to see people like that must be really cool.

[GirlInside]

By my count, a third of women who meet me for the first time assume I'm biologically female--even if they see me in glaring light from 2 feet away with a 5:00 shadow. (The rate is much lower for men, but that does happen.) This would be a lot more surprising if you knew what I look like. I notice in general that even people who know my biological sex basically treat me as a genetic girl--for better or worse.

As for the other way around, anyone who is not obviously male looks female to me. However, if someone acts male, regardless of biological sex, that counts as "obviously male."

And, while this is off the topic, I wish I had an "adopted sister."

[KayleeSaeihr]

By my count, a third of women who meet me for the first time assume I'm biologically female--even if they see me in glaring light from 2 feet away with a 5:00 shadow. (The rate is much lower for men, but that does happen.) This would be a lot more surprising if you knew what I look like. I notice in general that even people who know my biological sex basically treat me as a genetic girl--for better or worse.

How?

[Elliott Ford]

And, while this is off the topic, I wish I had an "adopted sister."

I'm really happy that i do :)

I have a whole network of close friendships here at University, many of them having been declared either my spouse or my sibling. I have a guy who decided to be my big brother :) A transguy who i'm pretty sure now counts as related to me. Several wives and husbands, some of whom are trans. And now a beautiful transgirl as a little sister.

And, of course, my beautiful agendered, asexual partner.

I have a doll named Amelia and she's my and my partner's adopted daughter. All the others have fun trying to work out what relationship they are to Amelia... :)

[GirlInside]

By my count, a third of women who meet me for the first time assume I'm biologically female--even if they see me in glaring light from 2 feet away with a 5:00 shadow. (The rate is much lower for men, but that does happen.) This would be a lot more surprising if you knew what I look like. I notice in general that even people who know my biological sex basically treat me as a genetic girl--for better or worse.

How?

Here's a partial list of general things:

-Women talk about things around me (and to me) that they shut up about the moment a man shows up (there's a long list of these things)--or they start talking about these when the last man leaves and I'm the only biological male around. It's like someone hits a light switch. The whole demeanor changes; we all feel so much more free to speak freely.

-When my mom or I go out, people (both sexes) are rude to us in ways in which they are never rude to my dad. (I often don't find this out until my dad says something.)

-People who assume I'm biologically female treat me the same way as everyone else does.

-Lesbians are attracted to me. Straight women are not.

And this isn't just limited to humans. My mom has a dog who greatly prefers to be around women and doesn't like men a whole lot. But, to this dog, I count as female for this purpose--as do some other biological males I suspect of being internally female like me. I think dogs can sense this in humans somehow.

[mort paradis]

I do that all the time, but mainly with people I already know. For my friend/family/roomie (adopted sister?), she's mtf, and doesn't exactly pass all the time...but to me I just see her as a girl and it just doesn't occur to me that others may not see her this way. A couple of my trans friends I'm the same way with, though if i didn't know them I'd think they were both bio-guys (one of them is ftm but wow). I've also lately noticed the exact same thing with myself...when I look at myself I see a dude, and for the life of me can't understand why so many people mistake me for a girl >_<

On a side note..I'm now gaining an adoptive family of close knit friends, after realizing that I'm not actually romantic, just really affectionate with a select few people. ^_^ So now my partner is really instead my friend/family...and it's kinda weird figuring out what to call each other again XD

[AVENCakes]

On what GirlInside said- my partner just passes as female, get called a girl, etc, drives them insane, which I appreciate - but I'm secretly glad. I really hope this means they won't get any trouble for wearing skirts, which is a weight off my mind. Other than pronouns, I haven't noticed people treating genders differently. I've never noticed the "light switch" thing with women, either. I've seen it with kids when parents leave, a group when someone walks in- but not gender/sex specific.

And on the pets thing- my cats prefer females, but have no problem with either my dad or partner. To paraphrase Martin from QC- They've been emasculated by cats?! Goddamnit!

[GirlInside]

On what GirlInside said- my partner just passes as female, get called a girl, etc, drives them insane, which I appreciate - but I'm secretly glad. I really hope this means they won't get any trouble for wearing skirts, which is a weight off my mind.

I'm not so sure about that; all it takes is for one person to read your partner's biological sex. That one person could have such a hatred of gender-variant people that your partner could be in serious trouble.

Other than pronouns, I haven't noticed people treating genders differently. I've never noticed the "light switch" thing with women, either. I've seen it with kids when parents leave, a group when someone walks in- but not gender/sex specific.

That's interesting, maybe you have to have a gender to notice things like that.

And on the pets thing- my cats prefer females, but have no problem with either my dad or partner. To paraphrase Martin from QC- They've been emasculated by cats?! Goddamnit!

Our dog has no problem with my dad, either, but she absolutely adores me, with my mom in a close second. She also adored this feminine biologically male teenager my mom met once; we think it's because of the association with me. She only knew women before we got her, but she loved me right away. All this is why I think dogs can sense gender identity in humans. Maybe there's some kind of hormonal diference they can smell.

[AVENCakes]

I'm not so sure about that; all it takes is for one person to read your partner's biological sex. That one person could have such a hatred of gender-variant people that your partner could be in serious trouble.

I am aware of that, however since they haven't once been seen as male while here, it makes things a bit easier. And either way- I don't expect them to let fear rule them. We'll be careful, who isn't?, but MtFs do it every day- so can we. The point is- when you pass without trying, making a few minor adjustments to make sure you pass while donning a skirt isn't as harrowing as when you can't pass to save your life and try it.

That's interesting, maybe you have to have a gender to notice things like that.

I DO have a gender.

Our dog has no problem with my dad, either, but she absolutely adores me, with my mom in a close second. She also adored this feminine biologically male teenager my mom met once; we think it's because of the association with me. She only knew women before we got her, but she loved me right away. All this is why I think dogs can sense gender identity in humans. Maybe there's some kind of hormonal diference they can smell.

I don't think there's a hormonal difference. In fact, IIRC, the only difference they've found in trans brains were in post-ops. If you were on hormones, I'd agree. But you're not, so unless you're not healthy, I see no reason why your hormones would be different than any male bodied persons.

[TTauri]

^^ Maybe that should be pheromones, rather than hormones???

[GirlInside]

I'm not so sure about that; all it takes is for one person to read your partner's biological sex. That one person could have such a hatred of gender-variant people that your partner could be in serious trouble.

I am aware of that, however since they haven't once been seen as male while here, it makes things a bit easier. And either way- I don't expect them to let fear rule them. We'll be careful, who isn't?, but MtFs do it every day- so can we. The point is- when you pass without trying, making a few minor adjustments to make sure you pass while donning a skirt isn't as harrowing as when you can't pass to save your life and try it.

True, but that doesn't mean it isn't dangerous...

I DO have a gender.

I thought you were agender or something?

[

I don't think there's a hormonal difference. In fact, IIRC, the only difference they've found in trans brains were in post-ops. If you were on hormones, I'd agree. But you're not, so unless you're not healthy, I see no reason why your hormones would be different than any male bodied persons.

Well, I'm not a biologist or anything, but I do think there's something about it that dogs can detect in humans. I mean, they can tell by smell that two people are related.

[AVENCakes]

I thought you were agender or something?

I'm Neutrois. Which is a gender identity, at least to me. I'm not genderless- there's a difference.

If I didn't have a gender- I wouldn't have the dysphoria, because without a gender identity there's nothing to feel my body is wrong against. However, I feel dysphoria strongly enough as to need to transition- because I do have a gender.

[Charlieee]

With animals, it's a smell thing, yeah. My good friend has this very friendly cat, and the cat always gets much much much more affectionate the few days right after he has his testosterone injection. As I'm pretty sure I'm not a cat, I don't exactly know how it works, haha. But yeah, it is a hormonal thing.

I try not to treat people differently based on their gender. Unfortunately it's not something I have complete control over, as the US's culture, at least, conditions from a very young age to treat people differently, and I'm still in the process of breaking that down. Part of that is also trying to ignore gendered cues people give me. Obviously if someone asks me to treat them in a certain way, sure I'll do that, but I don't see why we should treat people differently based on their gender. *shrug*

[AVENCakes]

With animals, it's a smell thing, yeah. My good friend has this very friendly cat, and the cat always gets much much much more affectionate the few days right after he has his testosterone injection. As I'm pretty sure I'm not a cat, I don't exactly know how it works, haha. But yeah, it is a hormonal thing.

Which doesn't really effect GirlInside, since, as has been pointed out- she's not on hormones, and as far as I can tell- no studies have shown that there are always differences in hormone levels between cis and trans, unless she's had her hormones tested to see that her hormones are different from a cisguy's- I don't see any reason to believe they are.

I know some transguys who seem to have naturally higher testosterone- resulting in androgyny and not needing as high a dose of T, but I also know plenty who have perfectly average hormone levels, and I'm sure cisgirls can have higher levels as well. So it's possible her hormones are different, as I said until they've been tested there's no way anyone can say for sure what those levels are, but I don't think that her being trans is the cause or even an indicator that she does.

I'm not denying animals can tell hormonal changes- humans can actually sense a lot of things without realizing it as well- I'm just not agreeing that being trans inherently gives you a different level than being cis, without taking anything to change it.

[Elliott Ford]

I try not to treat people differently based on their gender. Unfortunately it's not something I have complete control over, as the US's culture, at least, conditions from a very young age to treat people differently, and I'm still in the process of breaking that down. Part of that is also trying to ignore gendered cues people give me. Obviously if someone asks me to treat them in a certain way, sure I'll do that, but I don't see why we should treat people differently based on their gender. *shrug*

i actually agree with you on this.

I don't try to treat people differently and i don't treat them overtly differently (except the pronoun thing and everyone does that) unless i'm making a joke about our patriachal society and the percieved "gender roles" therein.

Sometimes, if someone is treating me too much like i'm just a girl with a boy's name and pronouns (it feels different when they do that to when they treat me as me and remember that i'm a boy) i jokingly do something stereotypically male to remind them. silly, yes i know, but it works on the boys here to remind them that i am not a girl and they shouldn't insist on treating me like one. it usually also shows them how ridiculously patriachal their behaviour is.

i just find there are incredibly subtle variations in body language between people of different genders and was happily amazed to discover that my body language at that level is, and always has been, male. it doesn't seem to be socially conditioned, it just is. because surely i was conditioned to be female?

[mad_scientist]

On what GirlInside said- my partner just passes as female, get called a girl, etc, drives them insane, which I appreciate - but I'm secretly glad. I really hope this means they won't get any trouble for wearing skirts, which is a weight off my mind. Other than pronouns, I haven't noticed people treating genders differently. I've never noticed the "light switch" thing with women, either.

I have, There are some things the girls in my group only talk about when the boys are not present, and their demeanor changes when the boys leave. They become less subdues and more inclined to speak naturally about whatever comes to their head.

[mad_scientist]

[

I don't think there's a hormonal difference. In fact, IIRC, the only difference they've found in trans brains were in post-ops. If you were on hormones, I'd agree. But you're not, so unless you're not healthy, I see no reason why your hormones would be different than any male bodied persons.

Well, I'm not a biologist or anything, but I do think there's something about it that dogs can detect in humans. I mean, they can tell by smell that two people are related.

It's much more likely to be body language. The dog probably picks up on body language cues, and you don't exhibit those typical of your biological sex.

[clearmurk]

i just find there are incredibly subtle variations in body language between people of different genders and was happily amazed to discover that my body language at that level is, and always has been, male. it doesn't seem to be socially conditioned, it just is. because surely i was conditioned to be female?

I know my body language, on the "obvious" level--I haven't really noticed any incredibly subtle differences between genders in body language, doubtless because I'm not paying any attention--changes back and forth. I don't know if it does this all the time, or if a lot of the time I'm in some sort of less gendered body language mode, but sometimes I notice my body language being almost painfully in sync with language I've observed in someone else, male or female, and sometimes I am just highly aware that I'm walking in a stereotypically female or male way, sitting, whatever. My handwriting changes too, but not with an obvious gender--I don't think handwriting is gendered unless you're a girl trying to look girly... but when I'm in an androgyne male mode, I do tend to sign my name with a heart in front of it or dot i's with hearts...

I don't think you were necessarily conditioned to be female. It depends on who you imitate(d). I talk and gesture a lot like my older brother a lot of the time, and some of that was me intentionally doing it, other parts was just watching--and some is doubtless genetic predisposition to certain gestures and ways of talking, and also us having several of the same other influences.

A lesbian told me there was something different about her sense of my gender, like no one she had met before, and my current (male, not into gender identity stuff) partner treated me about like I should be treated from the beginning--we later had a conversation and he told me he did treat me more like a guy friend than like a girl. So I think some people can sense these things, whatever they are, that we're calling gender, and that in some people their inner sense overrides the cultural mandates.

But, yeah, I think if you're not psychologically your assigned gender, why wouldn't you be receptive to socialization for another gender? Earlier this past spring semester, I had one of those laughing-because-the-only-other-option's-crying moments when I realized I was very, very subconsciously choosing my major to try to prove my masculinity--even though I let people think I'm female. D'oh. I just valued things that are valued in masculine culture, and for myself, even if they were things that I'm not inclined to and am not good at, like competitiveness.

[mad_scientist]

Random side-note, but while we're on the topic of subtle body language:

There is a difference in the way people walk, depending on their gender. Female figures in silhouette walking directly towards or away from the viewer look to be walking away (if other cues are not present). Male figures look to be walking towards the viewer. This remains even if all clues to the person's gender are removed (such as mimicking their motion with a digital figure instead).

It would be interesting to see a test done on how transgendered people walk -- I'm willing to bet that at least a significant proportion of them would walk the same as their internal gender. These are super-subtle signals that scientists didn't even realise existed until very recently, but I'm sure we pick up on them subconsciously.

[mort paradis]

It's much more likely to be body language. The dog probably picks up on body language cues, and you don't exhibit those typical of your biological sex.

I agree, it is more likely body language. I would be more inclined to factor in a scent, if the animal reacted that way when the person isn't in sight but their scent is there (like if they were behind a door or around a corner, or it was something that belonged to them).

[Beardless]

I can only identify people's gender by what they're trying to pass as, and if that fails, I try the voice. It's amazing how many people actually do this. When I used to LARP, a person joined the group, and as their character name was completely made up, and they did not have a gendered outfit or hairstyle, and an ambiguous voice, everyone was confused. Only one member of the group thought their gender was obvious.

This nicely contrasted with what I'd been told just a fortnight before by those in charge of the larp - I couldn't play a character much younger than I was, because the other players wouldn't be able to see me as that, just as they wouldn't let a person play someone of the other gender, due to confusing the players.

I think that last paragraph was off-topic.

[AVENCakes]

This nicely contrasted with what I'd been told just a fortnight before by those in charge of the larp - I couldn't play a character much younger than I was, because the other players wouldn't be able to see me as that, just as they wouldn't let a person play someone of the other gender, due to confusing the players.

so I couldn't play a bigender? *snaps fingers* damn, and I was so hopeful....

My friend was like that about text roleplaying- hated it when people played the opposite gender because then she'd get their character's gender confused with theirs or something. I thought it was a stupid argument. At least in LARPs you have the issue of passing.

[Display]

I love people like you. The kind of person that realizes I still feel pretty male even if I'm wearing a dress. Thank you for existing.

Nika

[hyenaboy]

My friend was like that about text roleplaying- hated it when people played the opposite gender because then she'd get their character's gender confused with theirs or something. I thought it was a stupid argument.

I agree, that's dumb.

You don't confuse an author's gender with their main character's when you're reading a book, so why should a text-based RPG be any different?

[AVENCakes]

My friend was like that about text roleplaying- hated it when people played the opposite gender because then she'd get their character's gender confused with theirs or something. I thought it was a stupid argument.

I agree, that's dumb.

You don't confuse an author's gender with their main character's when you're reading a book, so why should a text-based RPG be any different?

I think she (as was I for quite awhile, I must admit) was the kind who basically roleplayed herself at the time and probably assumed others did as well. We were both young- I was 13, she was at least a year younger. A few years later she was playing a male character- so I think she outgrew it. And, most people do stick to their gender, there are exceptions, but I think the majority of people I know almost never roleplayed the opposite gender.

I think it's more for forums where the person has their character's name as their username (it's required on some), so you get used to thinking of that username as the character- and get the OOC and IC confused.

I love people like you. The kind of person that realizes I still feel pretty male even if I'm wearing a dress. Thank you for existing.

Nika

I feel more male when I wear skirts.

[Beardless]

I'd say when I did text-based roleplay, I played myself, but I think that'd be too smug of me (given the character I was portraying). Needless to say, he was male and asexual. Also needless to say, I haven't forgiven his author for making him a late developer...

[mad_scientist]

I'd say when I did text-based roleplay, I played myself, but I think that'd be too smug of me (given the character I was portraying). Needless to say, he was male and asexual. Also needless to say, I haven't forgiven his author for making him a late developer...

My characters are always asexual, but that's just because I suck at rping and don't think myself competent or interested enough to play otherwise.

Well, more accurately, my characters never show interest in any of the other characters. But sex, age, occupation et cetera vary depending on what I feel like playing in a given setting.

[KayleeSaeihr]

This nicely contrasted with what I'd been told just a fortnight before by those in charge of the larp - I couldn't play a character much younger than I was, because the other players wouldn't be able to see me as that, just as they wouldn't let a person play someone of the other gender, due to confusing the players.

so I couldn't play a bigender? *snaps fingers* damn, and I was so hopeful....

My friend was like that about text roleplaying- hated it when people played the opposite gender because then she'd get their character's gender confused with theirs or something. I thought it was a stupid argument. At least in LARPs you have the issue of passing.

I used to do text-based RPing for over 10yrs. And only in the last 3yrs did I play a character not of my birth gender...Man that was so much fun.

[mad_scientist]

This nicely contrasted with what I'd been told just a fortnight before by those in charge of the larp - I couldn't play a character much younger than I was, because the other players wouldn't be able to see me as that, just as they wouldn't let a person play someone of the other gender, due to confusing the players.

so I couldn't play a bigender? *snaps fingers* damn, and I was so hopeful....

My friend was like that about text roleplaying- hated it when people played the opposite gender because then she'd get their character's gender confused with theirs or something. I thought it was a stupid argument. At least in LARPs you have the issue of passing.

In freeform text rp it's usually not a problem, especially if you play with people you don't know personally. I can't imagine why somebody would get stuck on a point like character gender anyway... if you're confusing a character with their player in freeform text, either they're not playing right or you're not.