On Pronouns.

[AVENCakes]

I feel like I can respond because I consider myself in that camp. :P Personally, I wouldn't refer to babies (born or unborn) as "it" if their sex was known to me. (Actually, I get offended when people refer to my pets as "it" when they know the sex.) If the unborn fetus is too young to tell the sex, I think I would refer to it as 'it'. (See, I just did it.) That doesn't mean I think it is any less worthy of life, though.

I personally use the singular 'they' instead of 'it', and do feel bad when I use 'it' for animals. Even though I know that 'it' doesn't imply less worth or anything else- I also know that other people do, and feel like I'm reinforcing that idea or something.

[Guest]

I've got some questions about pronoun usage! In real life I haven't encountered who's raised a funk about pronoun usage. But around the Internet, I've seen some debates and the like. I'm just wondering how you guys think.

- If you are identify with a gender that's not readily apparent, do you find yourself offended if people use the "wrong" pronoun to refer to you? Do you correct people?

- Do you use a system of pronouns other than the usual he/she distinction (gender-neutral and/or "invented" pronouns), what do you use? The singular "they"? "Ze"? "Xe"? Why?

I identify as agender, but I haven't actually come across situtations in which people need to use any pronoun around me that I've noticed. If I would need to, I would like to be refered to as "they," because it's a neutral word that already exists, even if it's not the most grammatical in these situations. My personal issue is more along the lines of "sister" and "brother" - I wish they could just use "sibling." For instance, I went to pick up my sister (lol) the other day and really didn't want to introduce myself with "I'm so-and-so's sister" when I don't identify as a girl.

- Do you consistently use gender-neutral pronouns in reference to other people?

Funnily enough, most of the time I do, but it's accidental. One particular instance I recall is the following conversation I had with a male friend:

Me: I know someone who's in the Air Force Academy.

Friend: Really? Does he like it?

Me: Yeah, she does.

Friend: ..."She?"

Although I didn't use "they" this time, it still didn't occur to me that the gender of the Air Force friend in question hadn't been clearly explicated, nor why their gender mattered.

[Charlieee]

Funnily enough, most of the time I do, but it's accidental. One particular instance I recall is the following conversation I had with a male friend:

Me: I know someone who's in the Air Force Academy.

Friend: Really? Does he like it?

Me: Yeah, she does.

Friend: ..."She?"

Although I didn't use "they" this time, it still didn't occur to me that the gender of the Air Force friend in question hadn't been clearly explicated, nor why their gender mattered.

lol sexism?

[AVENCakes]

Funnily enough, most of the time I do, but it's accidental. One particular instance I recall is the following conversation I had with a male friend:

Me: I know someone who's in the Air Force Academy.

Friend: Really? Does he like it?

Me: Yeah, she does.

Friend: ..."She?"

Although I didn't use "they" this time, it still didn't occur to me that the gender of the Air Force friend in question hadn't been clearly explicated, nor why their gender mattered.

lol sexism?

Definitely.

Times like that I'd definitely want to clarify the gender. Sexism sucks. Both ways, and every way. <_<

[Charlieee]

Times like that I'd definitely want to clarify the gender.

Why?

[AVENCakes]

Times like that I'd definitely want to clarify the gender.

Why?

Because, as I said, sexism sucks. If I've got a good reason to believe the person's of the mindset that "thsi activity/whatever means they MUST be a boy/girl" I'd like to point out that it doesn't.

[Charlieee]

Times like that I'd definitely want to clarify the gender.

Why?

Because, as I said, sexism sucks. If I've got a good reason to believe the person's of the mindset that "thsi activity/whatever means they MUST be a boy/girl" I'd like to point out that it doesn't.

There are other ways of doing that without gendering someone. For example, I had a conversation like this with my mother:

Me: [is discussing summer living situation, which involves a roommate]

Mother: Oh, and you're living with a girl, right?

Me: No, I never said that.

Mother: Oh, okay. So what's his name?

Me: I never said it was a boy, either.

Which tends to get the other person (my mother) very pissed off, but it does throw them off and gets them thinking. It can be very counterproductive to place importance on sex/gender when you're trying to get rid of sexism.... Instead of directly telling them how they should be thinking ("No, my friend in the Air Force is a girl!"), challenge their incorrect thought processes to figure out how to change them ("Why did you assume my friend in the Air Force is a boy?"). It might seem like an easy answer ("The Air Force is for men!" or whatever), but having them verbalize it can make a difference.

[Astryda]

Funnily enough, most of the time I do, but it's accidental. One particular instance I recall is the following conversation I had with a male friend:

Me: I know someone who's in the Air Force Academy.

Friend: Really? Does he like it?

Me: Yeah, she does.

Friend: ..."She?"

Although I didn't use "they" this time, it still didn't occur to me that the gender of the Air Force friend in question hadn't been clearly explicated, nor why their gender mattered.

lol sexism?

I wouldn't call it sexism (unless the person really is sexist and intended to put their words that way), it's rather a habit of thinking in gender stereotypes (which isn't necessarily intended, but learned from social environment). Yet, years ago women couldn't be in Army, so this really could be a 'habit'.

[Beardless]

- If you are identify with a gender that's not readily apparent, do you find yourself offended if people use the "wrong" pronoun to refer to you? Do you correct people?

I've never corrected someone for their use of pronouns about me. If I got annoyed at everyone who "she"d me, I'd have to come out to my relations. Online, I've never revealed my sex or gender except in places it's relevant (i.e. here), so why should I expect people to know what to pronoun me as? I like being considered male online, it's hard for me to pass as male on the street.

- Do you use a system of pronouns other than the usual he/she distinction (gender-neutral and/or "invented" pronouns), what do you use? The singular "they"? "Ze"? "Xe"? Why?

I'm entirely fine being called anything. In speech about someone I don't know, or someone who wishes to be known as gender-neutral, I'll use the singular they. My internal grammar pedant doesn't like the way the singular they looks written down, so I use sie in writing.

- Do you campaign for the usage of gender-neutral pronouns? Do you think they will ever catch on?

I wish they were better known, but I doubt anything except the singular they will ever slip into common parlance.

- Do you consistently use gender-neutral pronouns in reference to other people?

Only if that's what they prefer, or I don't know what they prefer.

- Hypothetical situation time! If you use gender-neutral pronouns in reference to someone who then says, they'd rather you use a gendered pronoun, would you comply?

Sure! I'd be a bit embarrassed to be honest, as they've just had to tell me their gender... Asking someone their gender is worse than asking someone their name!

- In regards to the previous question, I've seen this happen somewhere and a debate followed. Person A was so insistent in their usage of gender-neutral pronouns, they would not use a gendered pronoun to refer to Person B, even upon request. How does seem to you guys?

Person A is trying to pick a fight. Respect person B, ok?

[Grace]

People are starting to call me by female pronouns and call me by my name (grace). People are still stuck on Brian and male pronouns though, which I despise.

As far as others go, I flat out ask what people would like to be called. I think that's honestly the most respectful way to go about it.

[wonderlost]

There's a professor at my (US) school who is very enthusiastic about "it" becoming a gender neutral pronoun. Her first language is Turkish, which has one third person pronoun - "o." It is used for everything - males, females, animals, chairs, whatever. In her mind, she always translates that as "it," and has trouble not calling people by that pronoun. (She also confuses "he" and "she" all the time - sometimes on purpose. ;) ) So she advocates for "it" because she doesn't really see the point of distinguishing between animacy and inanimacy, in terms of pronouns. She thinks it's as irrelevant as gender....

Just another opinion to throw out there.

I've studied several languages, and I always find it interesting to compare different grammatical features. As far as pronouns go, the Romance languages don't offer much variety to English, except for the four versions of "you" in plural/singular formal/informal options. Although I suppose American Southerners' "y'all" or the less geographically-constrained "you guys" is comparable to "vosotros" (plural/informal).

Chinese third person pronouns are interesting. In spoken Chinese, he/she are pronounced the same, "ta". But they are written slightly differently. "She" has an element to represent "woman", and "he" has an element that represents "person/man". So you don't even have to make the choice when speaking, only when writing.

/geeky linguistic rantyness.

[mad_scientist]

Times like that I'd definitely want to clarify the gender.

Why?

Because, as I said, sexism sucks. If I've got a good reason to believe the person's of the mindset that "thsi activity/whatever means they MUST be a boy/girl" I'd like to point out that it doesn't.

There are other ways of doing that without gendering someone. For example, I had a conversation like this with my mother:

Me: [is discussing summer living situation, which involves a roommate]

Mother: Oh, and you're living with a girl, right?

Me: No, I never said that.

Mother: Oh, okay. So what's his name?

Me: I never said it was a boy, either.

Which tends to get the other person (my mother) very pissed off, but it does throw them off and gets them thinking. It can be very counterproductive to place importance on sex/gender when you're trying to get rid of sexism.... Instead of directly telling them how they should be thinking ("No, my friend in the Air Force is a girl!"), challenge their incorrect thought processes to figure out how to change them ("Why did you assume my friend in the Air Force is a boy?"). It might seem like an easy answer ("The Air Force is for men!" or whatever), but having them verbalize it can make a difference.

I love doing that! They know it's not PC to care, but they can't help it! It works even better with orientations -- I have a homophobic father who pretends not to be, so awhile ago I hinted "what makes you think I'm straight?" and after that refused to confirm my orientation. Watching him not caring while being consumed with curiosity was hilarious. It's impossible for them to ignore and rationalise such prejudice if they don't have at least a default box to stick you in.