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What it feels like to be trans, genderqueer or genderless


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I hate having periods. Thankfully, I don't get the really painful cramps, but on heavy days- I keep on thinking "Why? Why do I have to have a uterus that does this every month?"

That, and I don't want to go on birth control pils just to control them, because- TL:DR, I have a hard time trusting doctors in general, especially ones that just hand you a prescription and be done with it, never bothering to tell you the side effects of said pills. :mad:


Edited to add-

I hate it when I actually Feel my reproductive organs this time of month, along with the useless bleeding, and the mess that occasionally creates in the bathroom. If there was a way where I didn't need to jump through a million hoops of US Healthcare, I'd find a way to not have my period ever again.

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I honestly never thought about my gender before this site. Like I explored my sexuality, but I didn't do the same with gender because I didn't really have a problem with how I'm perceived. I'm called her and she and I don't have a problem with it, but I'm not attached to it either. I'm just...me. It actually kinda throws me off when I hear a pronoun assigned to me because I personally don't really associate with one. I'll more readily reply to she and her simply because that's what I'm used to, but I don't have a problem with he or they either. To me, my gender is vague and not really a thing? I'm me. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm not female or male or anything but me.

I consider myself genderless. If someone asks, I'll probably just tell them to call me female because it's easier for them, but I don't actually identify with it.

I dress femininely. But I only do that because I like it. I don't dress like I do to make me look feminine or help others assume my gender correctly. How I dress and act has nothing to do with my gender. It's only because I like it. If I didn't like it, I'd dress differently and it still wouldn't affect my gender. I don't have a gender and I don't need one. It doesn't distress me. Call me whatever you want, it won't bother me. I roleplay with my friends often as a guy and I'm just as comfortable being called he.

I do have problems with my body though. I don't like breasts. On other's they're fine, but I don't want them on me. They get in the way. I hate having female genitals and a uterus, but I don't really want male genitals either. If it were possible, I wouldn't have a sex. I'd have a urethra but no reproductive organs at all.

Sorry, I really don't know if I described this well. :unsure:

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I keep on rewriting my own story :P

Right now it doesn't really feel like anything I guess. It's just the way I am.

I recently went for a sharter haircut (well, bob...) and I like a lot more how people respond to the short-haired me than they responded to the long-haired me. Plus, it's less washing and drying :D Similarily, I wear clothing that is a bit smart, minimalistic, nothing too flashy usually, and if flashy then rather sporty. Because in al honesty, girly things are fun, but wearing them and going to people that way - less so. Dysphoria? Phew. I have none, there is just what people think and how they respond. I used to think that my destiny is not in my own hands and I should just be a patient Jesus Christ...

But it's not about clothes, it's not about how you present, it's just who you are at your core, regardless of how you embrace it.

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I'm genderqueer. I have a strong sense of my identity as female, but I like to play with gender presentation. I have short hair, but sometimes I'll wear a wig. I enjoy putting on makeup. I use female pronouns. My birth name was female, but I changed my name recently to a more traditionally masculine name.

I think a lot of people expect from my appearance that I'll be either a) a lesbian or b) a transsexual (FTM), but I'm neither. Sometimes I feel guilty about it. The worst thing, I think, is when I'm looking for employment. My name almost always comes up and every time I get turned down for a job I wonder if it's because of my name or what. "Not a good fit for the company" can mean anything. I like my name, though. I wish there was a way to get people to understand that I'm not just doing this for a prank, it's something I wanted and there's nothing wrong/crazy about it.

Blah.

But yeah, that's what it's like for me to be genderqueer. It's just a part of my life. I take it for granted, honestly, since it's the way I've been forever.

Did you get your name legally changed? Filling out job applications are troublesome because they only ask for 2 genders ...

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^ Yes! A huge pet peeve of mine is when people mix up gender and sex. There is a freaking distinctive difference! It honestly upsets me when I fill out applications or registrations and they ask for my gender, but they only put two options! If you're only going to list male and female, you are either actually asking my sex or you are incredibly ignorant. There are far more than two freaking genders!!

Same with science. Like I take a psychology or anatomy or whatever course and they start taking about the genetic, biological differences in males and females. But they say it's a difference between men and women. If you are talking about unchangeable, inescapable biological differences, you are freaking talking about sex, not gender! There are chemical differences between the two sexes and those need to be taught, but when you say gender you are no longer talking about something biological. I literally have to spell out for them what gender is and what a sex is. Shouldn't you know this?! At the very least you'd think that once they were corrected, they would make an effort to change how they taught. An effort. That's all I want. But nope! They are literally teaching incorrect things and they don't even care! I freaking spell it our for them! It's no wonder so many people are ignorant of the various genders since it is constantly reinforced that they're only two of them.

Gender and sex are not interchangeable. Ugh. Literally my biggest pet peeve. Sorry 'bout the rant.

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Sometimes job applications will have a "prefer not to disclose" option. It's not a great option, but I find myself quite tempted to check it every time I see it. I ended up doing so on my previous batch of applications, and still received calls from interviewers. Now I'm hoping the topic doesn't come up during a face to face interview, so maybe that wasn't a very wise idea. *nervous sweat*

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I'm biologically female, but my gender is listed as "nonbinary." I don't know if it's the same as queer or not, but my experiences seem to match some folk here. I work in a male dominated field, and dress in a more masculine manner. In my field, women still get paid less, and men typically don't notice, don't care, or don't believe it exists. It's opened my eyes to the possibility that when I enter the workforce after graduation, I will also face gender pay discrimination. I'm not trans, but I honestly wish that I would have been born a male. Life would have been, and would be so much easier. I've also thought about changing my name, both to match my gender expression and to cut down on the potential gender discrimination I'll face.

Sometimes job applications will have a "prefer not to disclose" option. It's not a great option, but I find myself quite tempted to check it every time I see it. I ended up doing so on my previous batch of applications, and still received calls from interviewers. Now I'm hoping the topic doesn't come up during a face to face interview, so maybe that wasn't a very wise idea. *nervous sweat*

If you check that box and still get interviews, I wouldn't worry. What I mean is, they will know you checked that box. If they wanted to discriminate based on gender, they had their chance. Because lets be honest. It's only LGBT+ folk or allies that would check that box.

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Plectrophenax
^ Yes! A huge pet peeve of mine is when people mix up gender and sex. There is a freaking distinctive difference! It honestly upsets me when I fill out applications or registrations and they ask for my gender, but they only put two options! If you're only going to list male and female, you are either actually asking my sex or you are incredibly ignorant. There are far more than two freaking genders!!

Same with science. Like I take a psychology or anatomy or whatever course and they start taking about the genetic, biological differences in males and females. But they say it's a difference between men and women. If you are talking about unchangeable, inescapable biological differences, you are freaking talking about sex, not gender! There are chemical differences between the two sexes and those need to be taught, but when you say gender you are no longer talking about something biological. I literally have to spell out for them what gender is and what a sex is. Shouldn't you know this?! At the very least you'd think that once they were corrected, they would make an effort to change how they taught. An effort. That's all I want. But nope! They are literally teaching incorrect things and they don't even care! I freaking spell it our for them! It's no wonder so many people are ignorant of the various genders since it is constantly reinforced that they're only two of them.

Gender and sex are not interchangeable. Ugh. Literally my biggest pet peeve. Sorry 'bout the rant.

I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate by coming in with the perspective of someone who, in some ways, feels forced to consider themselves agender. It's not off topic either because this is what it feels like to me - some parts of your post are, unfortunately, nothing but a huge questionmark. You speak with really strong conviction though, so perhaps you can enlighten me.

Anyway, here goes; the term 'gender' really doesn't seem particularly useful. If you listen to people talk, the terms sex and gender are basically used interchangeably. In German, there is no terminology at all for this [though the use of the English 'gender' is being popularized]. I like the idea of distinguishing the biological and descriptive from the identification with a set of attributes, but unless those sets are in some relevant way linked to sex, they really should be refered to as what they are - identities*. There are obviously more than two identities and nobody will dispute that. Now, I am well aware that some people do consider gender relevantly linked to biological sex [as in, for example, their gender determines their 'actual' sex or illustrates it in some non-biological way], but not all do. From what I gather from your post, I'm assuming you are likely among them. Since you deny that gender is biological, you probably consider it social or behavioural - linked to a biological sex, if at all, only historically/culturally and likely arbitrarily. Would you, then, agree that gender would be better off being differentiated more firmly from sex? Perhaps 'identity' is too general for you, but I feel as though it would cause a lot less confusion and would be a step in the right direction.

Two more things; firstly, you seem to imply that 'male' and 'female' are referring to gender and 'man' and 'woman' to sex [i apologise if I got it backwards], but I have seen the prior used much more commonly as the adjective form for the latter, and thus the sex [as in, for example, "male hamsters"]. If this is the case, surely teachers aren't teaching incorrect things - they are merely using terms in a different, but consistent, way than you are. The pair of words that I'm much more familiar with in the context of behaviour or demeanour largely or even exclusively independent of sex is 'masculine' and 'feminine'. I'm not trying to say that this use of terminology is more correct than yours, but the fact that there is such a muddle [and, like I said before, way too much similarity] among these terms should be telling. Secondly, you seem to have knowledge of the various genders. Would you mind sharing what they are and how they can be distinguished from each other [provided the amount is finite]? If you happen to agree with others, a short mention would suffice. It might well be that I am not agender at all but am merely ignorant of the 'correct' description of my attitude towards whatever non-biological thing is meant by 'gender'.

*That is, unless you think gender is something that is forced onto you [and on the basis of sex, no less], as would be a more classic approach. I haven't really seen anyone using the term in this way, and doing so would result in essentially two genders [i.e. one set of attributes/preconceptions/expectations/demands per sex].

In my field, women still get paid less, and men typically don't notice, don't care, or don't believe it exists. It's opened my eyes to the possibility that when I enter the workforce after graduation, I will also face gender pay discrimination. I'm not trans, but I honestly wish that I would have been born a male. Life would have been, and would be so much easier. I've also thought about changing my name, both to match my gender expression and to cut down on the potential gender discrimination I'll face.

I hope you live in a country where equal pay is demanded by law - in which case I would highly recommend taking legal action if you have the documentation to make your case. If you don't have such laws in place [which would be a travesty], then you could still show the men that don't believe it exists that it does exist, which might incite some much-needed support. Anything but just taking it, really.

Also, I don't know how a namechange would change potential payment discriminaton, unless you get paid by a raging sexist who categorises people by name and name alone.

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^ Yes! A huge pet peeve of mine is when people mix up gender and sex. There is a freaking distinctive difference! It honestly upsets me when I fill out applications or registrations and they ask for my gender, but they only put two options! If you're only going to list male and female, you are either actually asking my sex or you are incredibly ignorant. There are far more than two freaking genders!!

Same with science. Like I take a psychology or anatomy or whatever course and they start taking about the genetic, biological differences in males and females. But they say it's a difference between men and women. If you are talking about unchangeable, inescapable biological differences, you are freaking talking about sex, not gender! There are chemical differences between the two sexes and those need to be taught, but when you say gender you are no longer talking about something biological. I literally have to spell out for them what gender is and what a sex is. Shouldn't you know this?! At the very least you'd think that once they were corrected, they would make an effort to change how they taught. An effort. That's all I want. But nope! They are literally teaching incorrect things and they don't even care! I freaking spell it our for them! It's no wonder so many people are ignorant of the various genders since it is constantly reinforced that they're only two of them.

Gender and sex are not interchangeable. Ugh. Literally my biggest pet peeve. Sorry 'bout the rant.

I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate by coming in with the perspective of someone who, in some ways, feels forced to consider themselves agender. It's not off topic either because this is what it feels like to me - some parts of your post are, unfortunately, nothing but a huge questionmark. You speak with really strong conviction though, so perhaps you can enlighten me.

Anyway, here goes; the term 'gender' really doesn't seem particularly useful. If you listen to people talk, the terms sex and gender are basically used interchangeably. In German, there is no terminology at all for this [though the use of the English 'gender' is being popularized]. I like the idea of distinguishing the biological and descriptive from the identification with a set of attributes, but unless those sets are in some relevant way linked to sex, they really should be refered to as what they are - identities*. There are obviously more than two identities and nobody will dispute that. Now, I am well aware that some people do consider gender relevantly linked to biological sex [as in, for example, their gender determines their 'actual' sex or illustrates it in some non-biological way], but not all do. From what I gather from your post, I'm assuming you are likely among them. Since you deny that gender is biological, you probably consider it social or behavioural - linked to a biological sex, if at all, only historically/culturally and likely arbitrarily. Would you, then, agree that gender would be better off being differentiated more firmly from sex? Perhaps 'identity' is too general for you, but I feel as though it would cause a lot less confusion and would be a step in the right direction.

Two more things; firstly, you seem to imply that 'male' and 'female' are referring to gender and 'man' and 'woman' to sex [i apologise if I got it backwards], but I have seen the prior used much more commonly as the adjective form for the latter, and thus the sex [as in, for example, "male hamsters"]. If this is the case, surely teachers aren't teaching incorrect things - they are merely using terms in a different, but consistent, way than you are. The pair of words that I'm much more familiar with in the context of behaviour or demeanour largely or even exclusively independent of sex is 'masculine' and 'feminine'. I'm not trying to say that this use of terminology is more correct than yours, but the fact that there is such a muddle [and, like I said before, way too much similarity] among these terms should be telling. Secondly, you seem to have knowledge of the various genders. Would you mind sharing what they are and how they can be distinguished from each other [provided the amount is finite]? If you happen to agree with others, a short mention would suffice. It might well be that I am not agender at all but am merely ignorant of the 'correct' description of my attitude towards whatever non-biological thing is meant by 'gender'.

*That is, unless you think gender is something that is forced onto you [and on the basis of sex, no less], as would be a more classic approach. I haven't really seen anyone using the term in this way, and doing so would result in essentially two genders [i.e. one set of attributes/preconceptions/expectations/demands per sex].

In my field, women still get paid less, and men typically don't notice, don't care, or don't believe it exists. It's opened my eyes to the possibility that when I enter the workforce after graduation, I will also face gender pay discrimination. I'm not trans, but I honestly wish that I would have been born a male. Life would have been, and would be so much easier. I've also thought about changing my name, both to match my gender expression and to cut down on the potential gender discrimination I'll face.

I hope you live in a country where equal pay is demanded by law - in which case I would highly recommend taking legal action if you have the documentation to make your case. If you don't have such laws in place [which would be a travesty], then you could still show the men that don't believe it exists that it does exist, which might incite some much-needed support. Anything but just taking it, really.

Also, I don't know how a namechange would change potential payment discriminaton, unless you get paid by a raging sexist who categorises people by name and name alone.

Firstly, I apologize that my post was not very clear to you. I'll try my best to clarify that here.

Yes, I firmly advocate that gender is completely different from sex. You are completely correct on how I view gender. Gender is of the mind. It is what a person considers themselves. It is their "identity." Sex is a person's genitalia. It is involuntary and, as far as I know, there are only two: male and female. Vagina and penis. Gender is not linked to sex whatsoever. I would love if gender was further disassociated from sex. I'm perfectly happy with the term identity instead. The only problem with that, is that without a truly incredible amount of change, that will never be accepted. If you use the term identity in the place of gender, you will likely be asked to explain what you mean and will have to use "gender" to define it, or the person you are explaining it to will be like, "Oh, you mean gender." So while I would love to have a term that is not so associated with sex, I don't see it actually happening. I use gender because it is widely understood (for the most part).

The main reason I think people incorrectly use gender and sex interchangeably is that gender has been linked with sex through most of history. Cisgender has been the only, spoken about, gender throughout the ages. As cisgender was the only acceptable gender/identity people equated sex to gender because, in those times, your sex did dictate your gender. The world isn't like that anymore. Sex doesn't dictate gender anymore, but that mindset of cisgender being the only gender, hasn't changed for the most part. Even though transgender is becoming more known and accepted, all the other genders aren't getting near the same attention. Most people I know, know about transgender, but have no clue what agender, genderfluid or neutrois are (using those as an example).

When I say male and female, I am referring to sex, not gender. Man and woman are used to describe gender, not sex. Male and female are biological terms. For example, "I have a male hamster." Meaning, the hamster has a penis and the physiology that goes along with having the XY gene. You don't say, "I have a man hamster," or "My hamster is a man," because those refer to gender. My teacher would use man and woman when discussing biological differences between males and females. That would bother me because a person can be a man and not be male. See what I mean? We'd be learning about the differences in the balance of chemicals in a male's body as opposed to a female's, but the teacher would use gender terms that have nothing to do with biology. That reinforces on the students that gender=sex and that there are only two genders. My point is that we were being taught about sex, not gender, yet the teacher was calling it gender.

In my experience masculine and feminine are descriptors. "That dress makes you look very feminine." "His beard makes him feel very masculine." I'm perfectly accepting of these terms. They can be used to describe a person. That's fine. These are also able to be manipulated. There are ways to look and act more feminine or masculine, or neither, if a person wishes to. This can help others perceive their gender.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert on gender. I like to think I know more about it than the average person, but I don't know every gender out there. I'm sure there are plenty of genders I have no knowledge on. I always seem to learn new things on this site everyday after all. It also varies from person to person. I would describe myself as genderless, which in my opinion, is different from agender. I also view both of those terms as different from neutrois. It changes person to person.

I carry the notion that agender means a person has a gender, but none of the ones termed suit the person. Genderless, to me, means the person feels they simply don't have a gender, it's not a matter of not finding one that fits, they feel they don't have one at all. To me, neutrois means that they feel that none of the identified genders define them and that neither sex suits them either. (I myself feel like this, but not strong enough to call myself neutrois.) These are purely what I believe. Someone else could disagree and be correct as long as they don't try to call someone else a gender they feel suits the person better. Transgender, to me, means the person feels like the opposite cisgender. So they are female but don't identify as a woman/cisgender female, but as a man/cisgender male. They would be happier with the opposite sex and the cisgender that goes along with it. Genderfluid, to me, is a person who shifts between the genders. They can feel like a man at one point in time, and a woman at another or anywhere in between.

Those are just how I perceive those genders. Someone could disagree and be right. I can't know for sure if I am correct because I'm not those genders and those identities are different for each individual who identifies themselves as one of them. I have no method for differentiating the genders based on looks or behavior. My best advice is to ask. Try to avoid gender-identifying pronouns (like he and she) if you do not have it confirmed that they prefer those. I'm sorry I can't be of help in that area. I'm pretty sure everyone struggles in that area.

If you aren't sure about your gender, all I can suggest is to keep researching. I researched most deeply into agender/genderless/neutrois because those helped define myself and because one of my friends is agender. Keep looking until you find something you are comfortable with and if you're already comfortable, that's great!

I hope this clarified what I originally meant. Thank you for asking me on it! I don't want anyone to be confused on my opinions. :) :cake:

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Plectrophenax

Thanks for the response, I hugely appreciate it. There is also no need to apologise for a failing that lies more with me than with you. ~ :cake:

I hope you can understand that the things you say regarding terminology are not set in stone [as unfortunate as that is], so while I'm glad you are clarifying your meaning and intention, you cannot really advocate for it as the 'correct' usage. According to your terminology, I would be genderless and decidedly not agender but only if 'gender' is taken as a set of attributes that are general and not personal [i.e. not a personal but a collective identity, essentially the difference between a gender called 'me' and a gender called 'man/woman']. If, however, gender is taken to be synonymous with 'identity', it would seem absolutely absurd to claim to be genderless, and even to be agender [because that would be saying that "I have an identity, but none of the ones presented suit me" - but, surely, you are what defines your identity, not some pre-existing bundle of attributes]. Perhaps you would allow for the case that someone who merely is a certain way without considering themselves as that way is a person without an identity? That, to me, seems like the only way to understand the term and how you mean it.

Gender is not linked to sex whatsoever. I would love if gender was further disassociated from sex. I'm perfectly happy with the term identity instead. The only problem with that, is that without a truly incredible amount of change, that will never be accepted. If you use the term identity in the place of gender, you will likely be asked to explain what you mean and will have to use "gender" to define it, or the person you are explaining it to will be like, "Oh, you mean gender." So while I would love to have a term that is not so associated with sex, I don't see it actually happening. I use gender because it is widely understood (for the most part).

I feel as though, while we seem to superficially agree, we are still not talking about the same thing. While there are a finite amount of sexes, I would be hard pressed to consider the amount of identities to be finite. Unless [and sometimes even if] you deliberately use collective or generalised terms, an identity could potentially be utterly unique to one person. So how would anyone ask about your identity? It could not fit onto a questionnaire. A solution to that problem seems to me would be to ask for specific attributes that are deemed appropriate for the context [such as 'are you/do you identify as assertive', etc], but that would not only render the term 'gender' ultimately obsolete - something I would not object you, I have to confess - but the equivalent 'identity' as well.

And I honestly fail to see how falling back to 'gender' [a term that is not widely understood, it seems - you yourself have made note of teachers apparently misusing it] is necessary or at all helpful. Like I said, it could be helpful to resort to collective terms associated with identities/traits, but gendered terms like 'man/woman' are far from the only option here. When explaining what I mean by my 'identity' [if such a thing can even be explained satisfactorily] I might as well resort to terms like 'extrovert' or 'history buff' or 'philosopher' as opposed to 'man' or 'woman' or any other gendered term. The only reason I can think of for why gendered terms should be considered more apt than others is if gender is indeed linked to sex.

It doesn't help that I still think that most people asking for your 'gender' are not asking for an identity but for your sex. I have yet to see a questionnaire that isn't from the LGBTQ+ community that asks for both sex and gender, and not just sex or just gender. If I have to assume that asking for my gender is asking for a form of identity, then I would consider the limited options combined with the opaqueness of what the genders contain big enough obstacles for me to be unable to answer the question.

The main reason I think people incorrectly use gender and sex interchangeably is that gender has been linked with sex through most of history. Cisgender has been the only, spoken about, gender throughout the ages. As cisgender was the only acceptable gender/identity people equated sex to gender because, in those times, your sex did dictate your gender. The world isn't like that anymore. Sex doesn't dictate gender anymore, but that mindset of cisgender being the only gender, hasn't changed for the most part. Even though transgender is becoming more known and accepted, all the other genders aren't getting near the same attention. Most people I know, know about transgender, but have no clue what agender, genderfluid or neutrois are (using those as an example).

Because of paragraphs like these I find it really difficult to think that you actually consider gender fully independent of sex. I assume it's because you don't shy away from using the word while assuming your meaning is obvious. To me, it is not. Would you really say that "cisgender has been the only, spoken about, identity throughout the ages"? I doubt it. What you likely mean is that cisgender is the only gender identity [taken to mean 'personal identity as formed in relation to ones sex] that was on the table. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I can see how, in olden times, ones sex likely majorly influenced ones overall identity [and I can see how this still happens today], but if the term 'gender' is supposed to describe this sex-influenced sense of identity [often taken to be socially propegated and implicity and/or explicitly enforced], how much sense does it make to keep calling it gender after it became disassociated from sex? If anything, we are no longer positively forced into gender roles, and as such, only identities - not 'genders' - remain. To me, this would be much, much easier to understand.

By the way, transgender - provided you mean it in the most common sense of dysphoric people - is just about the worst example for 'gender' you can give, since it very explicitly is related to sex. Maybe our understanding is different here again, but transgender in the classic sense, it seems to me, cannot be what you mean by genders that have nothing to do with biological sex. It seems as though there's a use of gender that is highly associated with sex [as most texts I have read on the subjects maintain] and your preferred one that isn't at all. That already makes for at least two distinct usages of the word 'gender', which isn't exactly making things easy. [Personally, I would call the prior something like 'sex-related identity' and the latter just 'identity'.]

When I say male and female, I am referring to sex, not gender. Man and woman are used to describe gender, not sex. Male and female are biological terms. For example, "I have a male hamster." Meaning, the hamster has a penis and the physiology that goes along with having the XY gene. You don't say, "I have a man hamster," or "My hamster is a man," because those refer to gender. My teacher would use man and woman when discussing biological differences between males and females. That would bother me because a person can be a man and not be male. See what I mean? We'd be learning about the differences in the balance of chemicals in a male's body as opposed to a female's, but the teacher would use gender terms that have nothing to do with biology. That reinforces on the students that gender=sex and that there are only two genders. My point is that we were being taught about sex, not gender, yet the teacher was calling it gender.

In my experience masculine and feminine are descriptors. "That dress makes you look very feminine." "His beard makes him feel very masculine." I'm perfectly accepting of these terms. They can be used to describe a person. That's fine. These are also able to be manipulated. There are ways to look and act more feminine or masculine, or neither, if a person wishes to. This can help others perceive their gender.

I can accept your terminology, thanks for clarifying.

Still, the relation between the wordpairs is striking and they are most certainly linked. People who argue that it is impossible for someone to be a man and not be male are not saying that it is impossible for a person without a penis to have attributes and inclinations that are commonly associated with male people. They are much more likely to simply hold the position that 'having a penis' makes you 'male' as a descriptive adjective and a 'man' as a descriptive noun. Why the word 'man' should suddenly be laden with identifiers that have nothing to do with having a penis is beyond me. Sure, many cultures have associated all kinds of traits with biological sex but that's no reason to consider those [semi-]arbitrary associations to be in any way binding when it comes to gender, especially if taken as identity. I'd find it much more useful to abandon those associations and start anew, rather than to painstakingly uphold the notion that 'man' and 'woman' are necessarily ideologically loaded terms. [if they are, I'm not even really sure I understand all their connotations, nor would I know which reliable source could adequately illuminate me in this regard.]

At any rate, I understand your frustration, but, like I said in my previous post, it seems to me obvious that your teacher is not talking about identity but about sex, and is merely using the word gender synonymously. As far as I can see, this is not ignoring what you mean by gender [namely identity], and is therefore not teaching anything actually false. At worst, it's just confusing to use the same word for two different things - but that's exactly why I would advocate for using a different term, and I would urge you to seriously consider this.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert on gender. I like to think I know more about it than the average person, but I don't know every gender out there. I'm sure there are plenty of genders I have no knowledge on. I always seem to learn new things on this site everyday after all. It also varies from person to person. […] It changes person to person.

Those are just how I perceive those genders. Someone could disagree and be right. I can't know for sure if I am correct because I'm not those genders and those identities are different for each individual who identifies themselves as one of them. I have no method for differentiating the genders based on looks or behavior. My best advice is to ask. Try to avoid gender-identifying pronouns (like he and she) if you do not have it confirmed that they prefer those. I'm sorry I can't be of help in that area. I'm pretty sure everyone struggles in that area

Not to sound rude, but all anyone can 'know' about this, it seems, is that everyone has a potentially different identity that cannot be discerned immedately on the basis of their physical characteristics, most notably their sex. This may be news to some traditionalists or hardcore biological determinists, but I don't think it's wrong to say that most people [in the Western world at the very least] understand this. It's essentially a warning against prejudice or premature judgement and not much more.

It certainly doesn't help that there's obviously no objective or even just intersubjective standard for these identities, which makes me question the entire point of them. If this is about personalities, individuals, characters, personalised sets of attributes and traits, why insist on general terms like gender in the first place? What use is the label 'agender' to me or you, when both of us mean completely different things by it, and when both of us are or can be equally correct? It would make more sense for me to just outright explain my position, or to narcissistically [but safely] refer to it as being 'me'.

No wonder everyone struggles with this, it seems designed to be unwieldy.

[And just as an aside, when I use pronouns, I do not make any statements about a person's identity. Ever. I use them as descriptors and because grammar essentially forces me to use them. If a person is offended by that they can let me know and I will be considerate, but I will resent any implication that I have 'misgendered' them. If anything, I just 'sexed' them [if you know what I mean] and they - understandably, I might add - would rather I didn't. Likewise, I don't mind if people refer to me by my sex even though I deem it to be utterly irrelevant, but I would very much mind if they referred to me by an ascription of identity that they have no real way of knowing and that allows for only a miniscule set of identities in the first place. It's absurd and borderline insulting to me.]

If you aren't sure about your gender, all I can suggest is to keep researching. I researched most deeply into agender/genderless/neutrois because those helped define myself and because one of my friends is agender. Keep looking until you find something you are comfortable with and if you're already comfortable, that's great!

What resources did you use, if I may ask?

I really don't mind on a personal level, but I do mind not getting what other people are so fervently and passionately talking about, particualrly when they do it in such a way that assumes everyone is on bord with the concepts presented.

I hope this clarified what I originally meant. Thank you for asking me on it! I don't want anyone to be confused on my opinions. :) :cake:

I think it did. I posted a lot back at you but I think that's more of a disagreement or difficulty in understanding on a conceptual level and not one regarding basic comprehension. I hope my position became somewhat clear through this exchange as well, and I really hope that you don't take my posts as anything more than an incredulous person honestly engaging with your ideas how you presented them. I say this with more urgency than I normally do because I'm a bit under the weather and can't guarantee that my sentences are all sufficiently clear.

You do not have to respond further if you don't want to, but I am open to any criticism or question you might have - gladly via PM, if you'd like. If you decide not to, then thanks again for your engagement. ^_^

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I'm honestly not sure if I relate to nonbinary or agender more.

All I understand is that I question myself if I try to convince myself I'm a female (biologically female). I look at the mirror and try to say "I'm a girl" and I end up adding "I think?"

When I try to convince myself I'm male, I feel like I'm lying and uninterested. Maybe because I'm more comfortable or used to presenting myself in a feminine way?

Whenever I look at clothes, the only clothing I could feel the least worry about when it comes to male or female sections is if there's a shirt I want to wear that actually fits me.

I feel oddly indifferent when others call me "boy" or "girl" online but would prefer to be called by my name although I have no preference and open when it comes down to pronouns.

I'm also not bothered when I gain titles such as "king/queen" or "wizard/witch".

Tbh, I feel more comfortable with being agender but I worry or think too much of whether or not I'm just appropriating it T_T

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So as I specified in the other topic there are options for non binary and genderqueer when you fill out the forum at the urgant care places in NY. I'm not sure if they're doing that everywhere but I know it seems we took a hint from oregon heh xD

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So as I specified in the other topic there are options for non binary and genderqueer when you fill out the forum at the urgant care places in NY. I'm not sure if they're doing that everywhere but I know it seems we took a hint from oregon heh xD

Basically if you're in the Southeast US, you're probably stuck with Male or Female :( ..which for me will always feel excluding when filling out forms.

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So as I specified in the other topic there are options for non binary and genderqueer when you fill out the forum at the urgant care places in NY. I'm not sure if they're doing that everywhere but I know it seems we took a hint from oregon heh xD

Basically if you're in the Southeast US, you're probably stuck with Male or Female :( ..which for me will always feel excluding when filling out forms.

I'm not really sure because I don't live in the south. But the greatest thing about NY is that we accept every and anyone (:

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Dodecahedron314

So as I specified in the other topic there are options for non binary and genderqueer when you fill out the forum at the urgant care places in NY. I'm not sure if they're doing that everywhere but I know it seems we took a hint from oregon heh xD

Basically if you're in the Southeast US, you're probably stuck with Male or Female :( ..which for me will always feel excluding when filling out forms.

I'm not really sure because I don't live in the south. But the greatest thing about NY is that we accept every and anyone (:

Lived in the southeast for four years, can confirm that binarism is alive and well there.

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On 8/30/2016 at 6:56 AM, Nylocke said:

Did you get your name legally changed? Filling out job applications are troublesome because they only ask for 2 genders ...

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I'm questioning my gender right now, among other things. I was doing okay? as a cis girl, but I'd have these random moments of becoming distant from myself as a real person, and I'd get all weird about my image and start having a bad mindset. I kept questioning if I was trans, and my trans friends told me that cis people don't generally spend all that time wondering if they're trans. Making the transition from female to nonbinary was actually really scary, because I knew it would make my life harder in some ways. But when I did that transition, I felt a lot better about myself. So much better that I don't think I could go back to being a cis girl. I mean I just got a new chest binder in the mail today and I've been so excited for that thing.

Other than the random moments of... I don't know, depersonalization? There were other things that led me to question my gender. I don't feel like I fit in with girls. I've always felt like I didn't belong with them, but I just thought I had mental problems or something. I used to naturally lean towards befriending boys before my mom corrected me by pushing me more in the direction of girls. You know what's weird though? The girls I related to the most ended up being agender, genderfluid, or boys. Every single friend from school who I still talk to regularly is no longer cisgender. And that is the exact area I ended up in. I'm sort of questioning between a few nonbinary genders. I used to reject the idea that I was masculine at all. When I was a lesbian, I couldn't call myself femme, but I felt weird calling myself butch too. Somehow, I accepted the things about me that are usually read as masculine. I started preferring he/him pronouns over she/her ones (and I've also been using they/them).

Masculinity vs femininity and the areas inbetween and outside of that.. as well as how they relate to gender... are strange to think about. Which is why I'm questioning my gender. I've been identifying as a demi boy. I see myself as not totally agender, but not totally male. Somewhere in the middle, like a combination of genderless and male creating its own gender. I don't see myself as being similar to cis boys, but I relate to trans boys and agender people.

Sometimes I can confidently go back to saying I'm a demi boy, but it's hard to be totally confident when I'm not in touch with a lot of my nonbinary peers. I feel very isolated, like I'm the only one in this situation. Everyone around me seems to have their identity together, and they know what they're all about, but I feel like I'm nothing. Or like someone put me in the wrong place.

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So as I specified in the other topic there are options for non binary and genderqueer when you fill out the forum at the urgant care places in NY. I'm not sure if they're doing that everywhere but I know it seems we took a hint from oregon heh xD

Basically if you're in the Southeast US, you're probably stuck with Male or Female :( ..which for me will always feel excluding when filling out forms.

I'm not really sure because I don't live in the south. But the greatest thing about NY is that we accept every and anyone (:

Lived in the southeast for four years, can confirm that binarism is alive and well there.

Yikes, I hear ya. I've been to the south quite a few times and don't like it that much either.

Did you get your name legally changed? Filling out job applications are troublesome because they only ask for 2 genders ...

Sorry for the late response. Yes, I got my name legally changed. The courts where I live are remarkably trans-friendly; I had no trouble getting my name changed. One of the employees of the court actually called me shortly before the hearing, to make sure the spelling was correct, and she even asked if I wanted to get my gender signifier changed on my driver's license. I told her "no, I'm just changing my name", and she was like "oh, okay. Well, we like to ask. It's good to be inclusive" or something like that. So that was nice.

I've never had issues with job applications, but I usually fill those out online. Many of them only ask for gender when they're asking the demographics questions (race, gender, disability, veteran status, welfare usage), and those are optional.

Very fascinating to know :O

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Masculinity vs femininity and the areas inbetween and outside of that.. as well as how they relate to gender... are strange to think about. Which is why I'm questioning my gender. I've been identifying as a demi boy. I see myself as not totally agender, but not totally male. Somewhere in the middle, like a combination of genderless and male creating its own gender. I don't see myself as being similar to cis boys, but I relate to trans boys and agender people.

Sometimes I can confidently go back to saying I'm a demi boy, but it's hard to be totally confident when I'm not in touch with a lot of my nonbinary peers. I feel very isolated, like I'm the only one in this situation. Everyone around me seems to have their identity together, and they know what they're all about, but I feel like I'm nothing. Or like someone put me in the wrong place.

Yes, I'm envious of these people with "clear-cut" genders. I have a friend who's genderneutral and one that is agender. And that's it for them, it's always the same, they found the perfect label, and done. I can totally relate to their identities, I'm agender often enough, but NO, my gender has to be all fluid and messy.

I totally relate to how you define demiboy. I feel no connection to boys or men at all, and don't feel masculine either. But demiboy just seems to fit perfectly, as this genderless/boy hybrid. I feel comfortable with that label. But I prefer being agender, at least currently.

What I'm saying is, you're not alone with this frustration *hug*

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Masculinity vs femininity and the areas inbetween and outside of that.. as well as how they relate to gender... are strange to think about. Which is why I'm questioning my gender. I've been identifying as a demi boy. I see myself as not totally agender, but not totally male. Somewhere in the middle, like a combination of genderless and male creating its own gender. I don't see myself as being similar to cis boys, but I relate to trans boys and agender people.

Sometimes I can confidently go back to saying I'm a demi boy, but it's hard to be totally confident when I'm not in touch with a lot of my nonbinary peers. I feel very isolated, like I'm the only one in this situation. Everyone around me seems to have their identity together, and they know what they're all about, but I feel like I'm nothing. Or like someone put me in the wrong place.

Yes, I'm envious of these people with "clear-cut" genders. I have a friend who's genderneutral and one that is agender. And that's it for them, it's always the same, they found the perfect label, and done. I can totally relate to their identities, I'm agender often enough, but NO, my gender has to be all fluid and messy.

I totally relate to how you define demiboy. I feel no connection to boys or men at all, and don't feel masculine either. But demiboy just seems to fit perfectly, as this genderless/boy hybrid. I feel comfortable with that label. But I prefer being agender, at least currently.

What I'm saying is, you're not alone with this frustration *hug*

Oh geez I'm glad someone relates haha thanks ^_^

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So I just got my period today but the crap literally snuck on me and I bled in my sleep. I messed my underwear and a little of my pants x_x I'm lucky it didn't mess up my sheets either but in all my years of bleeding I've NEVER had my period come LITERALLY in my sleep. And my mom wonders why I want to get this stupid organ removed <,<

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm AFAB, and most of my friends think I'm cis. I live with three peers (all AMAB), and they constantly bring up my gender. It really frustrates me because when I do anything remotely "feminine" (wear a dress, cook, go out with girl friends, put on a face mask), my sex is always brought up to explain what I'm doing. I'm trying to be more comfortable doing "girly" things, trying to tell myself if I'm not a girl or a boy, then I can be as feminine or masculine as I want, but it's difficult. My masculine aspects are ignored or questioned, while my feminine aspects are stressed and celebrated. Plus, I walk home at night frequently and when I wear anything feminine (purse, flowy shirt), I'm much more likely to be yelled at by passing cars.

Up until a couple of years ago, I didn't know non-binary people existed. Going through puberty, my coping mechanism was to ignore the changes my body was going through. More than that, I tried to minimize the way that other people's perceptions of me would change. I wore baggy sweatshirts, wrapped my long hair in ponytails to keep it out of the way. Now, though, it's getting harder and harder to ignore the way I'm perceived. I don't want to suppress any femininity I have in order to get people to stop making comments, or yelling at me from their cars. I don't want to have to be another person to be accepted as I am. But I don't feel safe enough telling my friends, and I don't feel safe looking like a woman in this society.

I feel like I'm fighting a losing game. I'm never going to be accepted, I'm never going to feel safe.

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I live in the south. Yippee-ki-yay, mamacitas.

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I wish there were a gender neutral version of Ms... :/ Ms. is just strange to go by for me.

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I wish there were a gender neutral version of Ms... :/ Ms. is just strange to go by for me.

It generates the same level of dissociation when you go somewhere and you're with other people and then someone says "hello ladies" .

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Groovy Teacakes

I wish there were a gender neutral version of Ms... :/ Ms. is just strange to go by for me.

There is! Mx is a gender neutral title. :) It's reasonably new, but an increasing number of places are giving it as an option.
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  • 4 weeks later...

Right, of course we have the traditional:

"I am a x trapped in the body of a y"

or mine:

"i am a man trapped in a society that assigns gender by body type".

The second one sounds like me in a nutshell. I am a AFAB genderqueer (still questioning), but since I haven't changed my body, everyone who meets me assumes I'm cis female, not questioning once.

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