What it feels like to be trans, genderqueer or genderless

[Rylan-is-ninja]

Could anyone explain to me what it's like to be a demigirl/demiboy/etc?

I feel like that's what I am, but I haven't heard the terms enough to know really what they mean.

Idk I've grown up in a catholic home so I've always just accepted that I was a girl and that was that but I've been really wondering about what it would like to not be a girl, and on the occasions that I do wear masculine clothing, I find myself feeling super comfortable looking like a boy, but I don't necessarily always feel like a boy. I've been wanting a chest binder for ages, as I find breasts to be uncomfortable and unnecessary most of the time.

I don't even know what's going on anymore to be honest, and it's not like I can really talk to my very catholic mother about it, so I've decided to ask people who know what being genderqueer is like so they can help me figure out whether I'm genderqueer or just an extreme tomboy :/

[Kappamaki]

I consider myself an "agender demigirl" because I'm agender and kind of female - or at least, I'm noticeably more female than male, and if I had to present as one binary gender for my entire life, it'd be female, no question, albeit a more androgynous, tomboyish female. Although some demiboys and demigirls will put things in percentages for you - like "I'm 50/50" or "75% boy and 25% agender," or "25% girl, 75% non-binary," I think of myself as entirely 100% agender, but a more feminine than masculine agender. I still have no desire to do particularly feminine things, present particularly femininely, or have a very feminine body (although a masculine one would be even worse).

Hope that's helpful!

[DigitalBookDust]

I identify fairly comfortably as an androgyne. I have a bio-female body. I generally dress in gender-neutral clothing-chinos, t-shirts, oxford-cloth shirts, vintage Docs. I keep my hair extremely short, usually colored blue, and wear blue-tinted specs. Because I'm petite and waifish, until a few years ago, I was oft-mistaken for a teenage boy. I would even get asked why I wasn't in school, lol! That suited me just fine. My first response when anyone inquires about my gender is to say, "Llibrarian!" and let them figure that one out. I enjoy queering gender. I'll dress in my military fatigues but then put on a little make-up. Subvert the dominant paradigm, I say!

[kiaroskuro]

I don't even know what's going on anymore to be honest, and it's not like I can really talk to my very catholic mother about it, so I've decided to ask people who know what being genderqueer is like so they can help me figure out whether I'm genderqueer or just an extreme tomboy :/

What being genderqueer is like? I think that really varies from person to person ... everyone is going to give you a different answer.

To be honest, the concept of demigirl or -boy is a bit strange to me; so maybe someone who's more 'qualified' than me can shed some light on this. But maybe it could help to ask yourself if you experience gender dysphoria (http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria) or if you simply like to experiment with gender representation.

I personally prefer the term genderqueer to non-binary for various reasons, partly because of its political connotations.

[Heart]

Could anyone explain to me what it's like to be a demigirl/demiboy/etc?

I feel like that's what I am, but I haven't heard the terms enough to know really what they mean.

Idk I've grown up in a catholic home so I've always just accepted that I was a girl and that was that but I've been really wondering about what it would like to not be a girl, and on the occasions that I do wear masculine clothing, I find myself feeling super comfortable looking like a boy, but I don't necessarily always feel like a boy. I've been wanting a chest binder for ages, as I find breasts to be uncomfortable and unnecessary most of the time.

I don't even know what's going on anymore to be honest, and it's not like I can really talk to my very catholic mother about it, so I've decided to ask people who know what being genderqueer is like so they can help me figure out whether I'm genderqueer or just an extreme tomboy :/

Did you get a chance to read the definitions thread, pinned in this forum? It's not perfect, and I'm working on updating it, but there will be a definition for demi girl. Did it resonate with you at all? How do you feel about it? Any questions?

Usually the experience of being genderqueer involves realising that something is not quite right with being called whatever people call you by default, and then starting a journey of self-discovery. It sounds cliche, but it's true. Some people know very quickly what the right word is, others take a long time, months or even years, to find the right word. Some don't bother with labels and are most comfortable without them. Some have known something is wrong their whole lives, some only after puberty, some not until much later in life. Some people change genders, either in a genderfluid way (as in gender changes happen more than once) and some just once in their lives, flipping as it were and then becoming a new gender. In short, there is no "standard" genderqueer experience, but there are common elements.

I hope that helps. Perhaps some demigirls will chime in with their experiences :)

[Chari]

I'm agender.. but I've always been kinda "male-ish" in behaviour and dress even though I'm bio female.

I get super uncomfortable when i'm called 'she' or if other super feminine terms are used, but not so much with the male terminology. : )

[The Ace Otaku]

I'm what I've come to know as agenderflux where I'm mostly agender and try to follow a genderless/agender way of living how ever I do also flux into a more masculine personality however traits do cross over into both of my gender identities for example even when I fully in my agender mindset/identity I still have a desire to grow a beard and mustache even though they are more masculine. When it comes to pronouns I still use he/him however i am getting people to transition over to they/them

[Ancient Ooze]

To me, beeing agender, it always felt that my male body is a set of hardware I didn't choose but which has as many pros and cons as any other body. Actually, I never really thought about my body as a part of me as a person, it's just a tool for acting and expressing. As for my gender... it's just the closest thing to what I feel like: a mind in a body. Saying one has a gender feels wrong to me because I never saw any logical connection between me, my body or any kind of gender. Thinking about this, it feels alienating when people assume things about me. It's not that I don't feel right, it's that their gender assumptions don't feel right to me.

Although I often just stick with saying I'm male because my toolset is male. It's a practical statement, nothing else.

[nihon_otaku]

I've always felt comfortable with what nature gave me, but I feel that being male, or female would be inadequate labels to describe what lies beneath the skin. So, I've been telling people that I'm genderless, or agender.

I've always felt comfortable with what nature gave me, but I feel that being male, or female would be inadequate labels to describe what lies beneath the skin. So, I've been telling people that I'm genderless, or agender.

[dandelionfluff]

I have a randomish question. I have noticed that a lot of afab genderqueer girls usually dress more androgynous and are more masculine presenting. Is this a coincidence or is does one have to be androgynous or masculine presenting to be genderqueer or agender? What if an afab prefers to present feminine but does not complete identify with the female gender? Are there any afab agender or genderqueer people who do present on the more feminine side? I rarely see this. On the interwebs at least, it seems to be prominent for afab girls to present as masculine and wear mostly men's clothes while predominantly having shorter haircuts.

[BusTotem]

It seems like a political decision, which just happens to be a lot easier for AFAB people to make than AMAB people. I present as my assigned gender because I just can't be bothered to go the extra mile to make my presentation androgyne. It's easier for a female-bodied person to get clothes that are more masculine and be accepted wearing them than it is for a male-bodied person to get clothes that code feminine, though. Womens clothes are oddly sized, socially policed. All of the grooming factors that code female, other than hair length, are added steps and effort taken rather than the removal of extra steps.

[Kappamaki]

I have a randomish question. I have noticed that a lot of afab genderqueer girls usually dress more androgynous and are more masculine presenting. Is this a coincidence or is does one have to be androgynous or masculine presenting to be genderqueer or agender? What if an afab prefers to present feminine but does not complete identify with the female gender?

There's nothing wrong with presenting feminine for AFAB non-binary folk, or even AFAB men! Gender expression =/= gender identity.

Still, it's no coincidence that most AFAB genderqueer folk present more androgynously or masculine. I'd say there are two main reasons for this:

1) They honestly want to. It's self-expression. Yay for that!

2) This is the more sinister one: they feel a need to look legitimate. If you're AFAB and trans but present femininely, there will be people who think you're not 'really' trans - sometimes even in the queer community - and I think a lot of AFAB genderqueer and agender people actively try to present more masculine to avoid that. When I said "there's nothing wrong with it" earlier, I meant it, but it may attract idiocy.

I agree with BusTotem that the main reason we see more AFAB people who are visibly genderqueer, agender, non-binary, etc. than AMAB people is that differences in the severity of gender policing. Sure, such policing is carried out against everyone, but people who are read as male who present in a non-male fashion are far more likely to face actual violence for their efforts at self-expression. If this weren't the case, I think we'd see a lot more AMAB people come out as non-binary and present as such.

All of the grooming factors that code female, other than hair length, are added steps and effort taken rather than the removal of extra steps.

Long hair is an added effort! You ever try having long hair? You've got to take care of it! Even if it's totally loose without any styling whatsoever or even a ponytail, you still need to use way more shampoo and you need to keep brushing it out of your face. Short hair's way easier to manage.

[whitelines]

I have a randomish question. I have noticed that a lot of afab genderqueer girls usually dress more androgynous and are more masculine presenting. Is this a coincidence or is does one have to be androgynous or masculine presenting to be genderqueer or agender? What if an afab prefers to present feminine but does not complete identify with the female gender?

2) This is the more sinister one: they feel a need to look legitimate. If you're AFAB and trans but present femininely, there will be people who think you're not 'really' trans - sometimes even in the queer community - and I think a lot of AFAB genderqueer and agender people actively try to present more masculine to avoid that. When I said "there's nothing wrong with it" earlier, I meant it, but it may attract idiocy.

dandelion, you bring up "genderqueer girl." That's the #1 reason I feel the pressure to dress in a masculine way. Because when people hear that I'm dfab, genderqueer, and feminine-presenting, they assume that calling me "genderqueer girl" is okay. They assume that calling me ANY kind of girl is okay, which makes me feel, as Kappamaki is saying, not trans enough. So I end up trying my hardest to make sure that people don't do that by dressing in a really masculine way*. People have used the exact term "genderqueer girl" along with "non-binary girl" and "not girl girlfriend" none of which are okay for me. That said, the terms may feel totally fine to other people!

*I've grown into feeling more comfortable in masculine clothing anyway, but that was how I started out. I do let my mannerisms and voice become feminine when I feel like it, and that does bring up the "genderqueer girl" situation often still...

[whitelines]

All of the grooming factors that code female, other than hair length, are added steps and effort taken rather than the removal of extra steps.

Long hair is an added effort! You ever try having long hair? You've got to take care of it! Even if it's totally loose without any styling whatsoever or even a ponytail, you still need to use way more shampoo and you need to keep brushing it out of your face. Short hair's way easier to manage.

Ugh short hair is impossibly challenging! I wake up every morning and have to face the fact that my hair is standing straight up and there is nothing I can do about it except douse my head with water!

[BusTotem]

Yeah, there's a range of happy medium length, but it appears to code female of center.

[butterflydreams]

I agree with BusTotem that the main reason we see more AFAB people who are visibly genderqueer, agender, non-binary, etc. than AMAB people is that differences in the severity of gender policing. Sure, such policing is carried out against everyone, but people who are read as male who present in a non-male fashion are far more likely to face actual violence for their efforts at self-expression. If this weren't the case, I think we'd see a lot more AMAB people come out as non-binary and present as such.

And how...

I'd love to see a day where there were more gender-bending AMAB people. I have a sense there are lots out there who have to suffer in silence because they can't even get near what they want. Here's a spur of the moment idea though. All you genderqueer AFAB people out there, find your AMAB counterparts! Encourage them. Help them. Befriend them. Defend them. Chances are they've got nobody.

I do suspect that even with all that, you're never going to see as many AMAB genderqueer people anyway. Not because they're hiding anymore, but because it's just not as common a thing. That's ok. We should respect the choices of AMAB people no matter what they choose.

All of the grooming factors that code female, other than hair length, are added steps and effort taken rather than the removal of extra steps.

Long hair is an added effort! You ever try having long hair? You've got to take care of it! Even if it's totally loose without any styling whatsoever or even a ponytail, you still need to use way more shampoo and you need to keep brushing it out of your face. Short hair's way easier to manage

Hehe, that may be, but I kinda like it. I've always liked touching my hair, and now there's just more of it. Every time I wash it and get it nice and soft, I get excited!

Also, you'd be surprised how much beating hair can take. My sister is absolutely brutal to her hair. It's frizzy as hell, she brushes and blowdries it while wet...agh! Then, despite how much people tell her she looks so much friendlier when it's down, she chokes off her head with the tightest ponytail you've ever seen. I swear, I don't know why she's never cut it short.

[dandelionfluff]

Thanks for the replies. I have noticed that for women, gender bending if you will mainly means dressing more masculine. But I have read many places that one does not have to be androgynous or masculine to be outside of the gender binary. I was just really curious, because I was thinking if an afab who is agender or nonbinary or any other non-cis gender identity could still dress feminine while still not completely identifying as female. Or perhaps, is there a way for a girl to be androgynous, but leaning more towards feminine presentation? If you know of any specific examples of what I'm talking about, please post. I actually looked up pictures of androgynous women and all leaned much more towards masculine presenting.

And I actually see feminine presenting amab people all the time. Like around my campus there are quite a few. I remember seeing one at the library. There was this one guy on the bus wearing a woman's top, cut off shorts and makeup while still sporting his own hair. He was an older man who I assumed attended the college as well. It was interesting to see, because he was neither or. I know there are quite a few active online as well. One I like is Miles Jai. He identifies as male but has no problem wearing makeup and women's clothing. But you are right, amab who do present as feminine are more victims to violence, especially those of color. It is a shame.

[whitelines]

Thanks for the replies. I have noticed that for women, gender bending if you will mainly means dressing more masculine. But I have read many places that one does not have to be androgynous or masculine to be outside of the gender binary. I was just really curious, because I was thinking if an afab who is agender or nonbinary or any other non-cis gender identity could still dress feminine while still not completely identifying as female. Or perhaps, is there a way for a girl to be androgynous, but leaning more towards feminine presentation? If you know of any specific examples of what I'm talking about, please post. I actually looked up pictures of androgynous women and all leaned much more towards masculine presenting.

And I actually see feminine presenting amab people all the time. Like around my campus there are quite a few. I remember seeing one at the library. There was this one guy on the bus wearing a woman's top, cut off shorts and makeup while still sporting his own hair. He was an older man who I assumed attended the college as well. It was interesting to see, because he was neither or. I know there are quite a few active online as well. One I like is Miles Jai. He identifies as male but has no problem wearing makeup and women's clothing. But you are right, amab who do present as feminine are more victims to violence, especially those of color. It is a shame.

I think you're confusing two different spectrums: gender identity and gender expression.

Identity: someone who is agender may or may not identify as a woman and it is never okay to assume that calling an agender dfab person a "woman" or "girl," no matter her* expression, is appropriate. Just as the person you're describing from the bus may not identify as a man/guy, and it is never okay to assume that he* does. The term for dfab people is not "girl." The term for dfab people is dfab, afab, or some other acronym or word that indicates only their birth sex when necessary. Just as the term for dmab people is not "man."

Expression: Then there are dfab people who do identify as women/girls, or are okay with those terms, who dress androgynously. There are dfab people who identify as non-binary and are feminine in expression. There are infinite combinations of identities and expressions.

Example: I recently met a non-binary dfab person who dresses in pastels, skirts, tights, blouses. They have feminine hair (short, but feminine), wear makeup, and use effeminate mannerisms and vocal patterns. They use "they" pronouns, and I don't know if they're okay with female nouns (girl, woman, lady, etc). Their identity is non-binary. Their expression is feminine. Their birth sex is female.

Example2: I am dfab and occasionally dress in and am comfortable in an androgynous/feminine way (style inspiration = Samantha Jean of Minimal Androgyny). I am also comfortable in masculine clothing.

Note that androgyny is nearly always read as feminine on dfab, female-presenting, or female-passing people. That's because the boundaries of "male" are much stronger than the boundaries of "female." Dmabs typically have very pronounced bone and muscle structures and are taller and larger. These traits are very obviously masculine to outside viewers. As a result, dfab people have to work harder to present as masculine aka non-feminine (since those masculine traits are so pronounced). Androgyny, therefore, actually is in the realm of "feminine" since "masculine" encompasses really exaggerated traits. As a dfab, in order to be perceived as non-female (i.e. male or non-binary), I can't dress androgynously.**

*I'm using those pronouns for ease of conversation, but it's also never okay to assume someone's pronouns

** This is absolutely not a universal truth. There are tons of exceptions. I'm just speaking from averages, norms, hormonal and medical common sense, and my own experiences with perceiving other people's expressions and other people perceiving my expressions.

[DigitalBookDust]

I've just ordered a new cologne: Contradiction For Men by Calvin Klein. I usually wear Realm or CK Be. I ordered this one since it has both lime and vetivert in it, two of my favorite scents. My father used to wear a lime cologne, which I loved. When I was younger, I wore a vetivert cologne from Hove Parfumeur. I almost ordered Hove's Limas Des Buras, their lime cologne, but decided to give this a try instead.

I usually wear men's colognes or unisex colognes. I dislike most women's perfumes. They're too floral or powdery or overpowering. I want something subtle and crisp with green and wood notes, something reminiscent of green tea and old libraries.

What do YOU do about colognes?

[kiaroskuro]

What do YOU do about colognes?

Ha, I was going to ask the same question in another thread. I can't wear most men's or women's perfumes, so I usually stick to unisex fragrances. I love them.

As I'm primarily using the 'usual suspects' by CK at the moment and as I really don't know where to start looking for other unisex fragrances (good quality, but not super expensive): recommendations, anyone?

[DigitalBookDust]

Hove Parfumeur makes a number of scents that can be worn by either men or women. They're sold by the dram as cologne or perfume. They're not marketed as unisex, though. You can find them by going through the women's fragrances and the men's fragrances, not a difficult thing to do, as their line is limited. I greatly recommend Hove for anyone who's looking for high standards and something unusual. They're online.

[kiaroskuro]

Thanks for the recommendation! I'm quite sure I've never seen Hove perfumes in the department store or elsewhere, they are most probably not available in my country. I'll have to check out some online stores.

[whitelines]

Pharrell came out with a fragrance called "G I R L" which is supposed to be unisex - I haven't smelled it and don't know where to buy it, but just a jumping point.

I love fragrances so much you all make me want to go to Sephora right now and smell everything. I hadn't even remembered that that was something I was planning on doing - but now when I go to the mall to buy new shorts (summer!!), I will have a list!

[Prairie]

Yeah, there's a range of happy medium length, but it appears to code female of center.

Ponytail at lower back of head. When tail gets too long, cut with scissors just after hair tie. Minimal maintenance, doesn't get in face, yay.

[J. van Deijck]

"i am a man trapped in a society that assigns gender by body type".

This actually fits me.

I'm a transgender male who is pre-everything, and I'm upset when people automatically assume i must be a girl. Because why?

[lowena]

I consider myself an "agender demigirl" because I'm agender and kind of female - or at least, I'm noticeably more female than male, and if I had to present as one binary gender for my entire life, it'd be female, no question, albeit a more androgynous, tomboyish female. Although some demiboys and demigirls will put things in percentages for you - like "I'm 50/50" or "75% boy and 25% agender," or "25% girl, 75% non-binary," I think of myself as entirely 100% agender, but a more feminine than masculine agender. I still have no desire to do particularly feminine things, present particularly femininely, or have a very feminine body (although a masculine one would be even worse).

Hope that's helpful!

This is me, pretty much. :)

Also, a little bit of me dies every time I read "male/female-bodied" or "bio-female/male". There's no such thing as one "female body". I much prefer the terms AMAB and AFAB (Assigned Male/Female at Birth). I was assigned male at birth, but nothing about me as a person or my body is "male". That's just what the idiot doctors and my idiot parents thought it was when I was born based on my genitalia and nothing else. Whatever the hell my gender is, it has nothing to do with my body. I was never ever a boy or "male" or whatever the f*** you want to call it, that's just what people told me I was supposed to be and I believed them for awhile.

[J. van Deijck]

Well, I used to identify as agender because I deny the gender stereotypes + everything in me is totally androgynous: my appearance, social behavior, train of thoughts, everything. So I thought it was wrong to identify as male then (I was female assigned at birth). Now, according to all these definitions, I think demiboy fits me perfectly and this is who I am. But if I want to change my name and gender legally, I must leave my country. Here where I live only a totally masculine trans person has the right to change his gender from female to male.

[allrightalready]

Wow, it is hard to explain. All I said to my sister when she asked "So, you want to be a man" I replied, "Well, I am a man" and that was it.

Yeah, this.

me too.

I've edited the titles and the first post in this thread a bit. I'm hoping people who aren't trans, genderqueer neutrois etc. will come and ask questions.

i love Abby the AVEN Bear's answer to the question "Are you a boy or a girl?" They said "No" for Abby. i know a lot of people who wish they were brave enough to say it like that.

24 pages of posts are just too much to review sorry so this may have been addressed. i have zero problem with being female yet people often tell me i am not standard because i don't use makeup, shave or wear a bra and that by refusing social standards that i feel are ridiculous that somehow i am outside the binary even if i don't feel mixed (though rebellious does describe me).

i just cannot see how changing diapers or doing laundry and cooking make me female nor how changing my own oil would make me male

[Heart]

24 pages of posts are just too much to review sorry so this may have been addressed. i have zero problem with being female yet people often tell me i am not standard because i don't use makeup, shave or wear a bra and that by refusing social standards that i feel are ridiculous that somehow i am outside the binary even if i don't feel mixed (though rebellious does describe me).

i just cannot see how changing diapers or doing laundry and cooking make me female nor how changing my own oil would make me male

It doesn't. That's the simple answer. Women can be hairy, can hate cooking, laundry, and chores. Women can even have penises, that doesn't make them any less of a woman, whether they eventually have surgery or not.

If you're a woman, then you're a woman. Don't worry about those people who say you are less of one just because you don't conform to some arbitrary stereotypes. Being a rebellious woman is just as much woman as any other woman :D

[pi399]

I suppose I'll sort of bounce off of the previous post… for most of my life (I'm 17, however) I haven't really felt like a gender, but I had no qualms with people thinking I'm a boy until about a year and a half ago. I started to realize that people actually treated me differently from women based on the gender they saw me as, and I also started to realize that changes like broadening shoulders, facial hair, etcetera were occurring in me that I didn't ask for nor did I want. This all was worsened by the fact that I was in a relationship with a then-transphobic girl, who I eventually broke up with and who eventually changed her opinion. Anyways.

I feel more like a woman than a man, however I have no clue how I actually identify. I guess I'm a gender questioning person currently. I really wish people didn't see me as a guy so often, though; I wish I could appear feminine. I've wondered what it would be like to transition to female, but doing that terrifies me, as I think I would never appear like a female at this point, I'll always have that sort-of-masculine look that several trans women have. I also would not be able to biologically function like females are able to, it'll essentially be making me biologically worthless. But living my life appearing like a guy also terrifies me. I guess my conclusion for this is that I don't like how people see me, but I also don't like my other options; being trans or at least gender questioning really sucks in my current condition.