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What it feels like to be trans, genderqueer or genderless


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"male" seems to be the neutral gender. Male is synonymous with human, female is the other. In that way, if I want to be seen as just a person, it would help to be male.

I find that really odd. For more male and female have characteristics in some intangible way that agender and neutrois are really the neutral option. In my case being bigender, male and female, I definitely do not feel neutral + female gendered.

I think I see what you're saying. But I meant it more in the way other people perceive me, rather than how I feel on the inside. It seems to me that people perceive males as being people before males, but females as females before people.

I think that if I want to be seen as just a person, ie. if I want my gender to be irrelevant, then I should appear male (or at least as male as possible - that's a problem. I can't look androgynous even if I try).

It seems that, by default, male-appearing people get seen as people first... they are seen for their abilities, etc., much more easily that women (or at least female-presenting people) are.

Perhaps my perceptions are off.

I believe your perceptions are correct, and this is why I too would prefer to appear masculine if I was forced to choose a gender. Unfortunately, masculine is probably more androgynous in our culture than true androgyny -- female = "hey, a girl"; male = "look, a person"; androgynous = "would it be rude for me to ask what the hell this person is?"

I think this difference is a large factor in the "men act, women are" phenomenon in fiction. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenActWomenAre . You have people, and you have women. It's also why I find people who "can't talk to women" inherently offensive, although I'm sure it's not their fault. How about treating more than half of the human species AS HUMANS, and worry about genitals when you know each other better?!

You're right about the issue with appearing androgynous. Indeed, I think most people would then ask, "what are you?" as if you are a thing to be examined rather than a real person (though some people are certainly considerate of that too).

Thanks for the link about "men act, women are". I've seen this even in my favourite shows/movies/books/etc. How unfortunate that is...

I've also had experiences with men that 'can't talk to women', what bullshit that is. They can talk to me just fine over the internet when I pretend to be male! (Or when they assume I'm male because the setting happens to be a sports forum. Lovely.)

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mad_scientist

Thanks for the link about "men act, women are". I've seen this even in my favourite shows/movies/books/etc. How unfortunate that is...

You know what's depressing? Reread Harry Potter, mentally turning Harry into a female. The slightly annoying emotional main character with too much on his shoulder suddenly becomes an unbearably emotional, stupid, shrieking Mary Sue of a heroine.

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  • 2 weeks later...

"male" seems to be the neutral gender. Male is synonymous with human, female is the other. In that way, if I want to be seen as just a person, it would help to be male.

I find that really odd. For more male and female have characteristics in some intangible way that agender and neutrois are really the neutral option. In my case being bigender, male and female, I definitely do not feel neutral + female gendered.

I think I see what you're saying. But I meant it more in the way other people perceive me, rather than how I feel on the inside. It seems to me that people perceive males as being people before males, but females as females before people.

I think that if I want to be seen as just a person, ie. if I want my gender to be irrelevant, then I should appear male (or at least as male as possible - that's a problem. I can't look androgynous even if I try).

It seems that, by default, male-appearing people get seen as people first... they are seen for their abilities, etc., much more easily that women (or at least female-presenting people) are.

Perhaps my perceptions are off.

I believe your perceptions are correct, and this is why I too would prefer to appear masculine if I was forced to choose a gender. Unfortunately, masculine is probably more androgynous in our culture than true androgyny -- female = "hey, a girl"; male = "look, a person"; androgynous = "would it be rude for me to ask what the hell this person is?"

[...]

You're right about the issue with appearing androgynous. Indeed, I think most people would then ask, "what are you?" as if you are a thing to be examined rather than a real person (though some people are certainly considerate of that too).

[...]

this is really interesting... and it's why sometimes I don't regret that my body makes it impractical for me to present as androgynous. I'm sure that it would be a better reflection of who I am. But it would make gender such a big issue for everyone I encountered, which seems counterproductive when the category of gender just doesn't seem relevant to me. I want people to treat me as ME rather than my body, and I doubt that inspiring their curiosity about whether I should be labelled 'male' or 'female' would achieve that.

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MusicalCakes

I've never felt attached to one gender or the other. I just feel like a person.

I tend to let people just call me whatever they want. I don't really care as long as it isn't getting in the way of anything. Online, though, I leave gender ambiguous or choose "male" simply because, as others have said, "male" is considered more gender-neutral.

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Joining this forum has really got me thinking, not about new things, but things that have always been and I've just never paid any attention to or investigated.

I've always felt like my biological sex was a little bit off. I use to think maybe I wanted to be a guy, but I think I've learned that I would just rather be a guy if forced to choose between the two. Guys seem to have many of the advantages, but maybe that's just me. Anyway, I think I actually would most like to be neither male nor female, which seems really strange to me when actually typing it. However, I think I could accurately identify myself as agendered.

Some specific clues that something was amiss.

1. I've always felt noted aversion to the female parts of my body and its overall shape, like, "this is not...quite right."

2. When I (extremely rarely and usually coerced in some way) wear more feminine clothing, especially tight, huggy clothes and dresses, I feel like a cross dresser. No kidding. And it's not a good feeling, like a person who actually identifies with the opposite gender from their biological sex would feel. It feels like I am entirely wearing the wrong things and trying to underhandedly pass myself off as something I am not.

3. It makes me squirm when I hear myself being thrown into a collective female group in conversation like "the women" or "ladies." Oddly enough, pronouns don't really bother me.

4. All the female mannerisms feel wrong to me. I have observed how other women typically walk, sit, etc., and if it is not something I have observed men doing as well, I feel weird doing so myself.

5. I was kind of surprised to learn (actually put it together recently) that most people have some sort of inner sense of their gender that doesn't involve looking down and seeing what's physically there. I have no such sense. I'm just, you know, a person. Yippee.

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Dante_ilpurgatorio

Right, of course we have the traditional:

"I am a x trapped in the body of a y"

or mine:

"i am a man trapped in a society that assigns gender by body type".

How else can / have you described what it feels like to be trans / genderqueer / genderless?

Or, if you are not trans / genderqueer / genderless, how would you describe knowing that your gender identity does match your body?

Or are you ambivalent about gender?

(this has been heavily edited)

Hmmmm. I don't know where I'd go with that. I've always been comfortable having a female body. I never felt like I should have a penis or anything but because of the way that society pictures girls, I've felt like I should have been a man. For instance, if you look at a lot of musicals, the female roles are usually so dippy or innocent. The best one is Mrs. Lovett. :) But I always thought, why can't the girl be the protector or, in the case of a Sweeney Todd scenario, the psychopath? I'd say I'm gendlerless, I guess. I feel comfortable with it, but I wish that the people around me or the people I come across wouldn't see anything "wrong" with me thinking like a guy but being a girl who is comfortable in her own body.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I always thought it was because I was ace. I think I actually described it in a few other threads. I have never felt comfortable in my body since it started developing. It seems like my body is sexual, or is at least viewed as sexual by society, and so I am perceived as a sexual being... but I'm not. Or maybe it's that who I am perceived as (b/c of body) and who I am do not match up.

However, I am not uncomfortable because people think of me as female, but because people think of me as a sexual female.

My body is just a container that carries me around in it. I am not uncomfortable with my body, but with the fact that I am classified according to that body, because I feel like I have never associated any characteristics with body genders, at least not as much as other people seem to.

Personally I have never been able to understand how people ascribe gender to personality. To me, we are all people, and we have different characteristics. I always thought we are all nongendered beings inside gendered bodies. Society assigns certain characteristics to body types, but that doesn't mean that your personality is a certain gender... it can't have a gender, it's a personality.

If I could actually pick a body to have, it would be prepubescent, android almost. No curves, no genitals, just a nice little functional thing to carry me around it.

Does this kind of thinking usually come from genderless people? I've never even thought about gender being personality-related.

What would make a person's personality female or male would vary from society to society with standards... so can a personality actually have a gender if it would be classified as a different gender when you moved?

To Hades with you, labels. You confuse me greatly. :huh:

This was probably highly disorganized and all over the place and rambling. I apologize.

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5. I was kind of surprised to learn (actually put it together recently) that most people have some sort of inner sense of their gender that doesn't involve looking down and seeing what's physically there. I have no such sense. I'm just, you know, a person. Yippee.

OK, you just said everything I was trying to say in my long rambling paragraph.

This + I am asexual and my body is viewed as sexual and that makes me uncomfortable sometimes

The first time I ever even HEARD of people having gender identity outside their bodies was in this threada few minutes ago... I don't even understand how that works... so blame my rambling nonsensicalness on that and please don't be offended if I said anything stupid.

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Nice topic and very apt for me, obvious :P

I am male-bodied (though, thankfully, not ultra-male bodied) and I do identify as trans. I love dressing up, make up and look like a woman. Nothing makes me feel better than seeing my own more beautiful self! I even introduce myself with my own female-dressed picture on this forum, cuz thats how I feel my inner self is and how I'd like people to see me as!

However, I can dress up only occasionally, and thats how I want it to stay. Its like if you like bowling, you may not like to be bowling forever! But even in my normal self I like to be identified as someone who doesn't conform to the prescribed gender norms. I like to be seen as someone whose gender is always in question !

Thanks for reading, do tell me what you think! :D

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am born in a female body but I identify as neutrois.

When I was a kid, I mostly had guy friends and played their games. Some games were a little more rough and girls weren't allowed to play along, but even though I was a girl, I was allowed to play with them.

I also played with cars, hated dolls, but on the other hand also collected stuffed animals. For sports I did both gymnastics in an all girl class and I did baseball in a guys team (with only 1 other girl actually) - and when we had to play games, all the other baseball teams were guys only as well. :P

But I am not really a tomboy either. When I am in a group of females, I feel I don't belong to them. When I am with a group of guys, I feel I don't belong to them either. I can get along with both very well, but I always feel different.

For clothes, I wear what I like. I don't really attach gender labels to clothes. At the moment I really love the Japanese lolita fashion which is considered very feminine. But back in the days when I wore cybergothic clothes, I wore both guy and girl stuff. When I wear the deathrock style of clothes, I look more androgynous.

It is not that I dress in guy clothes when I am 'in a guy mood' or something. I don't have 'guy moods' or 'girl moods', but I just put on the type of clothing which I visually like.

But generally speaking I really like appeances and make-up and the more extremer looks. Which is often considered as a girly thing though.

Because my long hair (it is really long, about 75cm, reaching the lower back / top of my bum) people always think I am a girl. I am fine with that because I know sadly neutrois isn't known that well. But if someone would call me 'sir' or 'he' I wouldn't mind that either, although it has never happened to me yet. However, in the ideal world I would be called by neutral pronouns.

On the physical level, I really dislike my body and I would really love to have my breasts and girl parts down there removed. But I am taking my birth control pill non stop, eliminating my period, which has been a big relieve for me. It makes me feel less female. Luckily my breasts are quite small so they are not that noticable. But I want to get a binder anyways. (I tried to make one myself but I am not really satisfied yet)

I also dislike my first name because it is a really girly name. But I spend most of my time on the internet anyways and there I usually chose a nickname which is quite neutral. And when I have meet-ups IRL with people from the internet, I always introduce myself by my internet nickname. I have one nickname which feels like my real name, I use it almost everywhere but I don't use it here because I feel I can talk more freely about my feelings when google search doesn't show up my posts when you search my other nickname. So even though some people know my real first name, I usually sign with that nickname when I write emails or other posts or things like that. :P

The funny thing is that I even knew I was neutrois before I knew I was asexual. When I was around the age of 15, I always thought of myself as gender-neutral, but I didn't know that really did exist and that it was also called neutrois.

For the sexual orientation part, I thought I just needed to have a couple of relationships first and that I would get interested in sex eventually, but only around the age of 18 I realised it didn't work that way and then I came across the asexual term. And only about a year ago, after being part of Aven and reading queersecrets and stuff, I learned about the word neutrois.

So now I finally know what I am. And more important, I have finally accepted myself the way I am and I am not forcing myself anymore to be something I am not. ^_^

(and I haven't come out to my friends and such, but I think some day I'll tell them that I am neutrois)

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This is an interesting subject to me. I'm not sure I've ever thought about what I feel like gender-wise. I was born a male, and have never felt uncomfortable with my body. I guess I would say I feel like a man too? At the same time, how would I know what feeling like a woman, or gender-neutral is like? It's not something I ever really think about. I just am, I guess.

I can say, I've never been one for aesthetics. I practice proper hygiene habits and make a point to not wear tatty clothes that have long since served their purpose. But beyond that, what I wear is fit to the function. If it's lounging around, comfort is key. Yard work in the blazing heat? Summer clothes that are form fitting and easy to move in. Fashion eternally confounds me, and something I happily agree to disagree on. Otherwise it's nothing I care to spend any of my time on.

Now that I think about it, when I describe someone I know, physical characteristics aren't generally a natural thought that occurs to me. I'll describe their personality, and from there I'll segue into stories of them that help explain what their interests are and such. Usually it's the person asking "what's so and so like" who stops me to ask about physical traits. More recently, I've been making a point to more consciously look at things I do without thinking about doing them, and think about why I might do things the way I do them. I can scarcely describe the physical characteristics of people I have known for years, beyond stand out characteristics (very fat, very tall, very short, hair color, apparent physical gender, etc), with much accuracy at all.

Making a point to think about why this may be, I've noticed something. When I get to talking with someone, I get focused on whatever the conversation is with them to a point that I'm not really consciously paying attention or noticing what my eyes are physically pointed at. I noticed that I do sort of subconsciously make a point of periodically, moving what my eyes are looking at, so it doesn't seem like I am staring. This might explain my very poor recollection of what people look like, since I rarely make a point to get a good look at their physical body. When I form first impressions, more often it's the first things that come out of a person's mouth (what they talk about, and how they say it) as well as their body language, but not so much the particular characteristics of the body providing the biofeedback.

I would guess feeling out of place in your body is something not everyone will understand, and something that can't quite be captured with words? Personally, I am very anti body modification, and by that, I mean I would never modify my own body for merely cosmetic purposes. I want to make it clear that I could care less what you do to your own, and have no problem with people who undergo all sorts of body modification. The reason why I'd never modify my own body, really, is I see no purpose in doing so. Regardless of what my body looks like, honestly I still feel like me; cosmetic changes are a needless risk that can never change how I feel.

There's another interesting thing I've noticed in consciously paying attention to my own little quirks. I've been making a point to stop and look at myself in the mirror after my morning shower, rather than get lost in thoughts as I brush my hair, teeth, and put on deodorant. I swear, I look slightly different every-time. And by slightly different, I mean different enough to believe I was a different person if I didn't know any better. At times, I wonder if I have mild facial recognition issues, but then, I never have problems recognizing a person I have gotten to know beyond just an acquaintance. The few mistakes I make recognizing someone generally come about from trying to catch up to a person walking, that I thought was someone I knew from seeing or hearing them at a distance.

I know the grand majority of people are most definitely wrapped up in cosmetics and aesthetics, but I feel like I've always been 'odd' in that way. I am definitely a firm believer in 'function over form'. Let something best fit its purpose, if it gets the job done, and does it well, what do aesthetics matter to me? Aesthetics can often, but don't always, serve a very superficial purpose; if you ever get to know me, you know I couldn't want anything less to do with superficialities.

I'm just curious. As best as you can explain, for those so inclined, when and how did you come about feeling you were in the wrong gendered body, or that you are genderless? Without the benefit of changing perspective to that of an entirely different person, how are you positive something about your physical body, doesn't match how you feel on the inside? How much might be due to culturally imposed and enforced gender roles, and how much might be a legitimate mismatching body with spirit? For those who desire body modifications, do you feel it is something that would greatly boost your self confidence and/or happiness, or is it more of a fun thing you'd love to experience? For those of you who have undergone some kind of body modification to change your apparent physical gender, what was it like the first day afterwards? Was it what you dreamed it would be? Was it nothing like you expected, be it in a good or bad way? Would you ever "go back", or is it a choice you don't regret in the least?

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But for someone whose body doesn't match their inner feelings (here in terms of gender) that they can't get used to it and live a normal life, I think it is necessary. These people are not doing it for fun, but because they are suffering.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but like you summed up, we are all different in our ways. What makes you happy might not be what makes another happy, so why nor do what makes you happy, then everyone can be happy? :)

I want to emphasize that I mean no offense by anything I say here; there are some things I feel strongly about personally, but do not feel there are ever grounds to force my subjective ideals on others. I am just another being, it's not my place or authority to dictate "right" or "wrong", "better" or "worse". That said, what I'm about to explain is hard to describe without seeming a bit judgmental, though that is not my intent.

In a way, I feel body alterations, barring clearly life saving procedures, are not a necessity for happiness. Of course, I can only truly speak for myself and what I know from my own experiences. I don't feel such modifications are necessary, but I do not feel such procedures are entirely unnecessary either, as they can and do generate a boost in self confidence and self image for some individuals.

Really though, how is a woman getting breast implants to increase her sex appeal and/or self confidence, any different than the confidence boost one seeks from an "age reducing" face lift, or a sex change procedure? The motives may vary a bit, but at the core, the desire for such operations is generally the same, you seek to change something about your physical appearance that you feel would make you more confident/comfortable/have a higher self-image.

There's nothing wrong for desiring wanting to feel better about yourself; if it achieves the desired end for you, body modification is certainly a valid way of doing so. We all cope and experience life in our different ways. I do believe that some are naturally more attached to physical presence, appearance, and function than others.

I just don't see how one non life saving body modification is any more or less necessary than another. This is my personal opinion here, but I feel that it can be a poor way to cope which some, who take appearances and self image to extremes, employ. Again, I'm not saying that any unhealthy extremes are exclusive to any group beyond the human race as a whole, but I do believe it is the motivating factor in some cases where people seek a cosmetic body modification of any kind.

I'm sure eons of people who felt that they would be more comfortable with a different body were able to cope and lead perfectly fulfilling, happy lives, despite their undesired physical body. I'm also sure that eons of people have been unable to overcome the hurdle of things they can't change, but wanted to with every fiber of their being. In either case, I don't feel that the ability to significantly alter ones physical body is necessary to live a fulfilling, happy life, though it might help, for some.

I see no problem with any body modifications whatsoever, it's your body afterall. But I can't say I agree that body modifications are ever a necessity. Part of my thought on this, is that if you recognize that the gender you feel can be separate from the physical gender of your body, isn't the "need" to change your separate, physical gender a bit ironic and moot?

We all have things that contribute to our happiness, and said things vary from person to person; I don't think that much of anyone would take legitimate argument with the fact that happiness appears to be a key component to good health. But the ways one can achieve the happiness they seek are many, and no one exact path taken is necessarily, well, necessary to achieving happiness.

I just want to make sure I'm extra clear here, I'm not looking down on anyone for the ways they live their lives and seek out happiness. Personally, there are many "abnormal" things that I was born with, that I cannot change. But even if I could, I would never choose to change them; instead, I work with what I was born with to meet the various challenges brought about by different 'quirks'. I do get a sense of personal accomplishment in being able to overcome the challenges I face with my hard work and determination to surpass said challenges.

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I'd like to mention that for me it feels really weird just being...genderless.

I'd rather have some sort of label. But I can't bring myself to be either a guy or a girl.

At least then I'd have some....identity, yanno?

But no. I'm just...Farbo. That kind of scares me sometimes.

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A Long Time Ago

I'm just curious. As best as you can explain, for those so inclined, when and how did you come about feeling you were in the wrong gendered body, or that you are genderless? Without the benefit of changing perspective to that of an entirely different person, how are you positive something about your physical body, doesn't match how you feel on the inside? How much might be due to culturally imposed and enforced gender roles, and how much might be a legitimate mismatching body with spirit? For those who desire body modifications, do you feel it is something that would greatly boost your self confidence and/or happiness, or is it more of a fun thing you'd love to experience? For those of you who have undergone some kind of body modification to change your apparent physical gender, what was it like the first day afterwards? Was it what you dreamed it would be? Was it nothing like you expected, be it in a good or bad way? Would you ever "go back", or is it a choice you don't regret in the least?

Phantom limb among other things.

To start with, I am a woman whose body is male and I have not done much of social transition yet and no body modification yet (hope to start electrolysis to get rid of facial hair within the year).

Part of the thing that told my body was not right was phantom limb. Long before I knew what a uterus was or where the female reproductive tract was even properly located, I had phantom uterus and ovaries (comparing where I felt the feeling to anatomical diagrams, the matchup is very good) in addition to knowing I was supposed to have the ability to carry a child (though, I would probably choose not to use this ability). I first started feeling it at about the age girls generally go through puberty (I didn't go through male puberty till some time later, which was thankfully very very late). I've had it worse in the breast area where I have for some time felt that I am just about to grow breasts (of course, I never do and never will unless I go on estrogen which I haven't decided for sure if I will do or not).

Male pronouns have always felt superficial to me or grating depending on the stage in my life even before finally admitting that I am trans. I have secretly hoped for female pronouns since I was little but only recently got a chance to have them (they feel correct and make me feel more at peace). Despite being more masculine than feminine (yes, I am a transwoman who is a tomboy), my mind instinctively (as in before I got a chance to think about it much) looked towards girls (most of whom were tomboys) when it came to who I wanted to emulate. Ever since puberty, I've always felt I have gone into the wrong bathroom when I go into the men's room no matter how many times I look at the sign (since puberty, I usually check the sign 3 times before going in) and still feel it even if I am standing in front of a urinal. My body envy has is not directed towards males unless they have very feminine bodies (as in, it would be easy to pass if I had their body so their body would be an improvement to what I got). There are several other more minor things.

I don't think gender roles played into it much. I mean, I'm a trans-tomboy and my parents were never gender police (my peers at school are another story, though). I'm not a big fan of gender roles and can't wait for more of them to bite the dust and I will be happier when they do, though I will still feel my body and social (being gendered as male does NOT feel good to me) issues.

I am planning on a full transition (social, electrolysis of facial hair, hormones, and maybe surgery but not sure) to help alleviate my issues. It won't fix them all (for one, the phantom uterus is not solvable with current medical technology and probably never will) but should reduce them to more manageable levels. It will definitely make me happier, though it probably won't affect my confidence too much (I am already pretty self-confident). The big thing is rather than having all this tension and feeling betrayed by my body (both from the physical stuff and from people misgendering me because of it), I will be at peace (what things I have done like going out into the world presenting as female and interacting with people that way make me feel more at peace so I think going further will do the same and do more). For me, the pain is not so bad that I could not live the rest of my life presenting as male, though it would be fairly miserable. I can do things to turn that around to some degree, so that is what I am doing.

Also, I should note that I do NOT so much care if my physical transition (hormones and other stuff) were to make me what people consider to be ugly. I mean, of course I would like to be pretty, but I would happily be what people consider very ugly (as in, "a face only a mother could love" ugly) if I could have a female body over what I got (male body of about average appearance).

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Vampyremage

I'm just curious. As best as you can explain, for those so inclined, when and how did you come about feeling you were in the wrong gendered body, or that you are genderless? Without the benefit of changing perspective to that of an entirely different person, how are you positive something about your physical body, doesn't match how you feel on the inside? How much might be due to culturally imposed and enforced gender roles, and how much might be a legitimate mismatching body with spirit?

I don't think there is a special way to feel that something is wrong or not wrong with your body. If everything is fine, you won't notice it at all, but if there is something wrong, you will just feel it. Like you for example have always felt that .... (insert a colour of your choice) is your favourite colour, or something like that. For most people the feeling about their gender has just always been there (whatever this gender might be). It's just that sometimes, especially if it's outside of the binary, it's so complicated that you can't find a name for it, and later when you come across a word and find that it describes exactly (or something similar to) how you are feeling, then you finally find a name for your feelings. But in most cases it just has been there already, maybe all the time.

I don't know if that helps you...

As for modifications, I think you have to distinguish between modifications that you really need, and those that are "just for fun" as you said. I feel similar to you regarding cosmetic surgeries, like enlarging breasts, if it's "only" to look better. Most of those people could also live a normal life if they do not alter their bodies. But for someone whose body doesn't match their inner feelings (here in terms of gender) that they can't get used to it and live a normal life, I think it is necessary. These people are not doing it for fun, but because they are suffering.

In the end it's everyone's personal choice, to do what you feel is the best for you (or not to do), so you also have to accept other people's choices even if they are different from yours.

Like I said, I don't really understand why people do plastic surgeries, unless they feel so uncomfortable in their body that they can't bear to continue living like that, but that's maybe because I myself could never do it for such reasons. I don't stop other people from doing it though, since it's their lives.

I feel that I am in a unique position to comment on the body modification discussion going on here both because I identify as agendered and because I am very heavily into body modification in a way that has only very loose ties to my own gender identity.

First, I'm not sure that there is such a cut and dry distinction between body modifications that you really need and those that are 'just for fun'. I think that it's a spectrum just like many other things in life. For myself, while I could probably live without my modifications, what I have done currently and many of the things I have planned to do in the future go far beyond merely aesthetic adornment. They are an intrinsic part of my personal identity, a way to allow my outside self better match what is on the inside. Some of this has to do with my own gender issues but by no means all of it. It gives me a great deal of peace of mind to know that I am taking full control of my body and altering it to become the way I have always wanted it to be. It could be argued that some of what I've done has helped to reduce my femininity (being born biologically female) but again, by no means all of it. My sub dermal horns, for example, are one of my most profound modifications to date and mean something to my personal identity that is very important and also difficult to exactly put into words to explain to another person. Could I live without them? Probably. But I would never want to live without them again and I would certainly never want to have to remove all of the modifications I've done to date. The idea of halting my personal project where it is now causes me a fair amount of distress because I don't see my project as complete because my outside self doesn't match what I see on my inside. The idea of reversing everything that I have all ready done causes me even more distress and I can't honestly say I know how I'd react to that. I think I would feel very lost, however.

I think its very difficult to judge how important a modification is to a particular individual. What you might see as "just a tattoo", the person whose tattoo it is might see it as a mark of reminder to a very important event in their life. There can be many different meanings attached to many different modifications, from the relatively standard piercings right down to full sex change. I don't like to judge anyone for what they do to their own body. Your body is the one thing that is yours and yours alone in this world and I think it is difficult to necessarily, from an outside perspective, know what amount of meaning a particular modification might have to a person. Just because it seems like a small thing doesn't mean that it is a small thing to that person.

I would also question where the line would be considered to be in important enough to really need and those one considers just for fun. Maybe on the far ends of the spectrum that would be obvious, but there are a myriad of different shades and gradients in the middle. That person with the tattoo that is a tribute to their dead mother, for example. They may be able to live without that tattoo, but that doesn't mean that the tattoo doesn't add something to their life.

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I've been reading this thread for quite some time - even before I made an account on here. This topic has been on my mind for some time (well, years, but lately more than ever).

Since I was a kid, and hit puberty, I've been outraged at my own body for - in a sense of the word - betraying me. It developed wrong, in ways that I couldn't stop. I used to have mini tantrums, yelling about how I'd get my breasts removed and surgically have my uterus taken out (two things that I ironically still plan on doing). I wanted to be a boy then. I hated that I was born female, felt as though it was some sort of sick joke. I even blamed my parents in a childish fit of rage, trying to pin it down on someone.

Well, I ended up just ignoring the issue for years. Pretending that it wasn't a problem, just going with whatever. I never wore anything outright male or female - just tee-shirts, black hoodies and jeans. (which is a shame, because I LOVE High Fashion). You couldn't get me to wear a dress or skirt unless it was an extremely special occasion - and then you'd still have to basically threaten me into it.

Now, I went to college away from home for a couple years. Lived life with this lifestyle still and then had to come home because of financial reasons - transferring to a University (an ironically better one) that I could commute to and live from home. Somehow the sudden isolation from peers brought the subject to mind again. I mean, it never really faded, but I stopped obsessing over it lately.

What I've realized, though, is that while i have an EXTREME dysphoria with my body, it's not that I want to be outright Male.

I mean, I HATE my chest (I'm not huge, but I'm larger than most even if I'm rather slim). I want it gone and plan to get it removed one day. I'm going to be starting to bind very soon.

I feel no association with my lower half. I mean, I have no sexual interest, but minus that even it's just not part of me in my mind.

I hate my 'figure' and want a more slim, masqulin one. I see my brother developing muscles by doing nothing and am just jealous (which is ironic, since he wants to be female...)

But I don't feel outright Male either.

I don't feel like a Female or a Male. I want my body to look different, but I don't want to be one gender or the other. I plan on eventually getting top surgery - I want a flat, muscular chest. I do want to get rid of my hips/butt/ect. and have a straight figure. But I don't have any interest in hormones - well not a serious interest :3 I have no interset in bottom surgery.

Basically I don't feel affiliated with either gender. If I could get away with it, I'd want to be a brain. Just a brain, no body. That would be perfect.

Since I can't, I'd like to get as close to what I feel would reflect the 'Inner Me' as possible. Which is a very strange Androgynous, Gender Neutral Human.

Which is going to be hard since I very clearly look like my biological gender...I'm working on it though. Working hard!

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The Vampire Queen

I am a genderless bio-female with a rather cisgendered presentation.

I've never had serious problems with my body except for the fact that it developed too early. I have always looked older than my age and hit puberty in the second grade. I noticed my breasts developing when I was eight years old, at that time I started feeling disconnected from my body. I had been more or less unaware of it before. I knew was a girl, but I wore clothes from the boys section and had "boy" toys as well as "girl" toys. When my body started to develop, I began experiencing dysphoria to the point that I asked my mom to "fix" me. Well, I got my wish and my doctor prescribed medicine to delay my growth. I was still wearing a bra by fourth grade, but I felt exponentially better about my body being more childlike or neutral. I didn't know the term "genderless" then, but now I realize that I've always felt this way. I'm fine with my body now, but I still don't feel totally connected with it.

I dress in a more feminine way now because I find women's clothing more interesting than men's clothing, not because I necessarily feel female. On days when I'm just not feeling a dress, I wear skinny jeans and a t shirt with hightops, not to look more androgynous, but because it's easy and nondescript.I wear makeup every day to cover my scars and add some art to my rather uninteresting face. I'm a big fan of heels because I'm just too short. Nothing I do is done out of a sense of gender identity because I just don't get gender.

Not only do I not feel gender for myself, but I don't really apply it to others either. A good friend of mine sometimes wears my clothes or eyeliner when we go out and I don't think it's at all weird for him to do that. He looks good in my jeans so why shouldn't he wear them if he wants? I didn't realize that others thought it was odd until another friend looked at him and asked why he was wearing "girl pants". Despite growing up in a gender-obsessed society, the concept of gender is internally foreign to me. I do and wear whatever I feel like and I think others should do the same.

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So many of you are so much like me, or I am so much like you, it's so strange and makes me all teary-eyed and happy and stuff. I'm not the only one, y'know? And I'm not mentally retarded, there's nothing wrong with my head, the way I think and process is just another type of thinking, a type of thinking that some of you use, too!

Biological girl and asexual here. One thing I've seen a lot is girls talking about playing with the boys as kids. I was one of those, yes, definitely, but I was also a huge Barbie fan. I loved dolls and stuffed animals and playing house as much as I loved beating up my friends and playing Dinosaur Robots. To this day, I adore (and wear!) ultra-feminine Lolita fashion, and I love tutus and sprinkles and cupcakes. I wear gaudy makeup and do my hair. By the very same token, though, my heart flutters at an engine's roar, and I want to understand its inner workings. I use power tools and build prop guns and armor (for MONEE). When someone is my friend, I call them my brother, be they male or female, and I refer to my brand of hugs as "warrior embraces." I currently work on a filthy dock and my coworkers are all males and I drive a forklift (4000lb sit-down propane-powered Toyota with a siiiiide shiiiift <3) with pride, with no makeup on, clad in steel toe shoes and tough jeans and big t-shirts. Sometimes the guys ask me why I work there, and I wonder if my presence, to them, feels like a violation of their previously all-male sanctuary, but I think it's really just honest curiosity, and it's better that they ask me directly rather than make ludicrous speculations behind my back. I hate that more than almost anything.

How does it feel to be me? Well, it's... it's wonderful. I'm free. It's true, my fellow man still expects me to do certain "female" rituals that I decline to engage in (lol, shaving), but what is female and what is male changes from culture to culture, decade to decade, and therefore they are irrelevant to the universe overall. What I am is a MetalEgo who does what she likes, and while I consider myself neither strictly male nor strictly female, I strive to be a "lady," a status that I, perhaps foolishly, consider above mere gender.

The only times my biological gender really slaps me in the face is when I talk of traveling, be it just going camping or walking the whole world. Then everyone, my friends, my family, even my customers give me odd looks. "You mean, alone? But, you're a woman."

Like, seriously? I thought we were past that. Whateva, I do what I want.

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I see myself as a guy with a different body shape. So my lower body doesn't look like society's idea of what is "male", that really doesn't bother me. I want to change certain parts of my body to be more masculine so I will feel more comfortable. I feel bloody awful sometimes because I have the "wrong" body--it's irritating for me to have a voice that sounds wrong, and irritation leads to, well, sadness and thinking about giving up if I have a really bad day. Though when I do feel like giving up and never getting out of bed again, it's usually because of other people giving me grief for refusing to identify as something I am not.

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i am a male bodied person.

i want to have no pronouns attached to me. people will be able to adress me by any pronoun.

i want to have a near hourglass figure. but i don't want to have big breasts or anything.

i want to be able to wear whatever i want, if it's allowed for somebody, then i should be able to wear it too (of course, aside from tampons!).

i want to wear makeup, and nailpolish.

it's my life, i want to live through it as i please

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Personally, I want a completely neutral body and appearance, probably to an extent not really achievable in nature (I suppose that's what art exists for, eh?) :)

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i sometimes wonder about my own gender. i've often been mistaken for the opposite sex, which doesn't bother me-but i have noticed that sometimes when i have romantic feelings about someone i sometimes picture myself as the opposite sex. i have wondered if i am really an ace, or just confused about my gender, lol

it's weird, but i am alright being ambivalent about the subject right now. i have not been vocal about my gender feelings or asexuality, and it seems like most people are okay with me as i am. i know i am, and that's all that really matters to me.

word.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am agendered, with slight female gender fluidity, so it is very confusing when my femininity reveals itself (it very rarely happens, so when it does, it is strange). When I'm agendered, I feel very dysphoric in my biologically female body. It embodies itself as nausea, dizziness, panic attacks, and other strange things like that.

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I've never specifically thought of myself as anything other than female, but I've always felt like a 'not-very-feminine' girl/woman. And that's ok with me, except for when other people occasionally try to enforce stereotypically female styles of dress or behavior upon me.

I've worked in several male-dominated industries, and I always found it frustrating to hear the males make constant references to me being 'one of the only female (whatevers) around. Especially with the air that what makes it more unusual is that I was GOOD enough in my skills to be worth recognizing. I understand this is intended as a compliment, but I still found/find it annoying. Then to go with that, there seem to be a lot of men who will praise a woman extravagantly for being a fraction as good at something as a skilled male. If I'm beginning or mediocre at something (and presumably working to improve my skills), I don't need to be showered with praise for something a male with the same skill level would never receive a moment's notice for. I'm just me, doing what I do. If how I'm doing something is noteworthy (because I'm really excellent at it, or really sucking at it, or have a unique approach to it), then perhaps I deserve the positive or negative recognition. My being female is not noteworthy, and shouldn't affect whether what I'm doing is noteworthy or not.

And then counter to that, there are men who expect a woman to be twice as good before they'll acknowledge that she has a right to her pursuit of that job/hobby/area of interest.

As far as considerations of gender identity, it's never even a question I considered for myself until the past couple of years. And now, I think I have a few uncertain thoughts in my head that I am still mulling over. The more I think about it, I kind of wish I COULD just remove the issue of gender in relation to my identity. Inside myself, I'm just 'me.' That isn't a term with a strong gender value involved. I have a female body and no overriding drive to change myself to a male body, so where the physical side defines things, I go by the female definition. Where it doesn't have any specific effect, I wish other people would stop making an issue of it. I do tend to dress somewhat androgynous a lot of the time, but my face and figure are pretty recognizably feminine, so it falls into that 'less obvious than a man cross-dressing as a woman' often can be, I think. Which, again, is fine, I have no need to be identified as a male, either.

Although, I will say that if we had the technology or magic for me to 'become' male, or 'try out' a male body for a period of time, I would totally try it. I don't have any particular expectation that I would like it better - maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't - but I would be completely curious about what it's like to have a male body as opposed to a female one.

Interestingly enough with all of this in mind, I do identify clearly as hetero (though I'm feeling more and more like grey-a/demisexual hetero than fully hetero'sexual' to draw that distinction). But such romantic and sexual attractions as I feel, while not frequent or prevalent in my life, are definitely and have always been toward males. I wish I could be bisexual or biromantic, having feelings (romantic, sexual, or otherwise) toward individuals with no need for gender to play a role in that either, but... I'm just not.

I don't necessarily know what all of that means - except for exactly what it is, a picture of how I feel about myself in relation to gender identity right at this point in time.

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I identify as male to most, though I think I am more... Ehm... I wouldn't say genderless, not gendermore...

Just think of me as those really feminine anime males who are half human, and half cutesy fluffy animal, like a cat or something.

YES. EXACTLY THIS.

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I'm a guy, but that has no real meaning for me. I don't do things in a male or female way. I've never had sex. I stand up to pee, I suppose, but that's the extent of my maleness.

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No. I live in a society where a failure to subsume into one end of a binary is frowned upon. As an Agendered person, I do not feel for androgynous tendencies (although I must say, the androgynous appearance must be one of the most aesthically appealing look for the eyes only.) nor do I seek Neutrosis. I find it very natural and have never felt any shame, unless other people keep on preaching how "You're either one or the other." It's just The way I am.

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