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The Trouble With Transness


GirlInside

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GirlInside

Everyone knows how difficult relationships are for asexuals. But some of, even if we were sexual, the gender thing makes it much harder. I'll use myself as an example. Suppose I got into a relationship. Ignoring the sex issue for the moment, it still wouldn't work out, as I will show in a proof by cases:

Case 1: The person is a woman.

Case 1a: She's straight.

Then there are a million little things she would expect me to do in the male way (plus, shall we say, a few big things). I couldn't stand it. I'd have to leave. (Actually, straight women aren't generally attracted to me. Lesbians make up a small minority of women as a whole, but they're the majority of women who are attracted to me.)

Case 1b: She's lesbian.

Then, as I've learned the hard way, she could risk ostracism for being in a relationship with me. People seem to like me, but not enough to go through anything inconvenient.

Case 1c: She's bisexual.

Then she would want me as a man; if she wanted a woman, she'd be with a biological woman, not one who looks like a Neanderthal.

Case 2: The person is a man.

Case 2a: He's straight.

Then he would never be attracted to me.

Case 2b: He's gay.

See Case 1a. (Yes, the same thing operates with gay men.)

Case 2c: He's bisexual.

See Case 1c.

(Besides, I prefer women for all companionship purposes.)

Oddly enough, this is the only real area where I'm trapped between worlds. Outside of romantic/sexual relationships, I'm basically accepted as a girl.

Does anyone else here face similar problems that make relationships absolutely impossible to get into, let alone keep?

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mort paradis

I'm in a relationship with another transperson...I think in some ways that helps it work out, and in other ways it adds so much other stress.

One one hand, they understand the whole trans thing (hopefully). On the other hand, if they are transitioning, then you get all the stress from that. Plus possible envy or jealousy if they are transitioning and their partner wasn't, and that can work both ways. If both are transitioning than you get double the stress or more.

There are successful relationships out there between transpeople and all kinds of other people, so if we want to be optimistic, it's a matter of meeting the right person for us.

(sorry if this isn't well put together I'm about to run off to work >_<)

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I can't relate to you, even if my gender doesn't match my sex, but I think you could have a chance for a relationship with panromantic (someone who is attracted to a person, regardless of their sex/gender) person... Hard to find, but not impossible I hope. Or, as Conri said, with someone trans too. Or just with someone who's of any orientation, but tolerates/supports 'both' of you side.

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Carsonspire

Yes and no.

The cases you state are certainly possible and I don't doubt that trans/gender issues can complicate the situation, but your cases also seem to describe a rather rigid state of reaction (i.e. if this person identifies as such, they will react in this manner.) There are plenty of people, however, who do not follow such rules. The trick is to find those people!

~Carsonspire

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Does anyone else here face similar problems that make relationships absolutely impossible to get into, let alone keep?

Nope. Quite the opposite- I think the only reason my current relationship is possible is because we're both trans. If our bodies were different, we wouldn't be able to be together comfortably- and neither of us would be attracted to the other were we cis.

You forgot about 3-∞ D- Subject is pansexual and 3-∞ E- Subject is transgendered and only interested in other transgenders or genders in this area of the graph.

3-∞ because, let's face it, there's just that many genders.

I thought the biggest thing keeping you from a relationship that you're aromantic and want a sister, not a girlfriend, but people put romantic/sexual feelings first.

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GirlInside
I think the only reason my current relationship is possible is because we're both trans. If our bodies were different, we wouldn't be able to be together comfortably- and neither of us would be attracted to the other were we cis.

That's very helpful. I'll be sure to keep it in mind. It makes a lot of sense.

I thought the biggest thing keeping you from a relationship that you're aromantic and want a sister, not a girlfriend, but people put romantic/sexual feelings first.

You're right; I was speaking hypothetically. If I someday made the decision to get into a romantic relationship because it's the only way to get even colse to what I want, I'd still have this issue blocking me.

In other words, the topic of this thread is the second biggest thing. ^_^

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This thread makes me sad. :(

I think it would be useful to keep in mind that not all cis romantic people see trans people as their birth sex. Just because a bunch of stupid people desire you for what you're not, that doesn't mean everyone will have the same attitude.

I'm trans, and... well, I'm not quite sure if I'm romantic or aromantic. XD But I've had straight women be attracted to me as a man, and lesbians be attracted to me with the understanding that they're attracted to a man. But these are also liberal, accepting, and open-minded straight women. I suppose it's not only about your gender and birth sex, but also about the other person's attitudes and opinions towards gender and trans people.

Actually, in the end, what's preventing me from a relationship with these women is not my gender, but my asexuality - they're all really really sexual! XD

That being said, it's really unfortunate that you would lose hope, just because a few people are really stupid with regards to gender. :( I hope you stay optimistic.

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First of all, you can't figure these things out a priori, second of all, you're not the only transperson in the world, and third of all, I don't think all cispeople are as big of jerks as you describe. I am cisgendered (albeit a little weird) and unsure how to label my orientation (though I usually say "pansexual" if people want to push it). One of my previous relationships was with a non-binary-gendered person, and it was not a problem. In fact, it was like a breath of fresh air to have someone who wasn't making stupid assumptions about my personality and preferences based on the shape of my body.

My cisgendered husband has been approached for sex by a number of lesbians, to my perpetual envy.

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oneofthesun

I think you're right Girlinside. That's definitely what I've heard from other transfolk. Before I transitioned I thought it was irresponsible of trans people not to tell their dates right away, but now I understand why they wait a while. If a person already likes you you've got half a chance they won't run for the hills when you tell them you're trans. If they know you're trans ahead of time they won't even consider going with you in the first place.

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I think you're right Girlinside. That's definitely what I've heard from other transfolk. Before I transitioned I thought it was irresponsible of trans people not to tell their dates right away, but now I understand why they wait a while. If a person already likes you you've got half a chance they won't run for the hills when you tell them you're trans. If they know you're trans ahead of time they won't even consider going with you in the first place.

That's why I'll tell them first off, actually. I dealt with the drama of someone who didn't accept me once- and that was enough. Never again, I'm not even letting a person like that buy me dinner, they're not worth my time. Either you're a-okay with dating a neutrois, or you're not my type- and I'm not interested enough in dating to care about the slim pickings that leaves. If anything, I'm grateful for it. If I'm going to deal with a relationship I want to be damned sure it'll work out- and the fewer people who fit my standards, the fewer times I have to deal with a relationship with the wrong person.

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GirlInside

I agree with RDraconis and oneofthesun 100%. :)

I think it would be useful to keep in mind that not all cis romantic people see trans people as their birth sex. Just because a bunch of stupid people desire you for what you're not, that doesn't mean everyone will have the same attitude.
First of all, you can't figure these things out a priori, second of all, you're not the only transperson in the world, and third of all, I don't think all cispeople are as big of jerks as you describe.

I'm not so sure that's the problem.

For me, it never gets to the level of someone wanting me as a man, because anyone who wants a man usually isn't attracted to me in the first place. To give you an illustration, 30-40% of women who meet me for the first time (by my count) see me as female, and I look like an average biological male.

So it's not really a surprise that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me. However, they are forbidden from acting on this. Even if they were willing to risk being ostracized for me (which no one ever is regardless of the issue), I wouldn't feel right about being the cause of their excommunication.

I do like the idea of finding a transwoman, though. Especially since a disproportionate number of transpeople are asexual (1/3 of post-transition MTFs who were sexual before are asexual, plus there are those who are asexual to begin with). Who knows, maybe I'd be more open to romance and sex with someone who is attracted to me as a woman.

I am cisgendered (albeit a little weird) and unsure how to label my orientation (though I usually say "pansexual" if people want to push it). One of my previous relationships was with a non-binary-gendered person, and it was not a problem. In fact, it was like a breath of fresh air to have someone who wasn't making stupid assumptions about my personality and preferences based on the shape of my body.

Funny, most non-binary-gendered people I know are attracted to one sex or the other.

My cisgendered husband has been approached for sex by a number of lesbians, to my perpetual envy.

In that case, are you absolutely sure he's cisgendered? Even if he says he is, he could be fooling himself. (Guess how I know this.)

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I am cisgendered (albeit a little weird) and unsure how to label my orientation (though I usually say "pansexual" if people want to push it). One of my previous relationships was with a non-binary-gendered person, and it was not a problem. In fact, it was like a breath of fresh air to have someone who wasn't making stupid assumptions about my personality and preferences based on the shape of my body.

Funny, most non-binary-gendered people I know are attracted to one sex or the other.

I don't think they were saying non-binaries aren't attracted to one or the other, btu that they don't expect rigid following of gender roles. Most nonbinaries I know are pretty lax on gender presentation/gender even fi they prefer a certain body. That or they specifically prefer people who break the gender roles/traits (ex. preferring masculine women and feminine men). Most binary people assume that you fit the roles/traits of your gender/sex- so would expect their parnter to fit the role of their gender/sex no matter how the partner felt, while a non-binary is more likely to acknowledge that not everyone wants to fit gender roles and won't try to force anyone into either role in the relationship.

I honestly don't acknowledge gender roles- I don't think anything I'd do I'd associate as fitting one role or the other, even if most people associated my actions iwth it. If someone dating me wanted to be in the female or male role, I wouldn't notice it and wouldn't care if they did or didn't so long as they were a good partner for me, so if I was datign a cisperson who doesn't want to fit their gender roles it wouldn't be a problem like it could be with someone who expects their partner to take the male/female role based on their gender/sex.

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So it's not really a surprise that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me. However, they are forbidden from acting on this. Even if they were willing to risk being ostracized for me (which no one ever is regardless of the issue), I wouldn't feel right about being the cause of their excommunication.

Sorry, I forgot to address this part in my previous post.

Transmisogyny in the name of feminism..... I think is a load of crap. And I think that many feminist spaces are beginning to realize that as well. Especially with extremist nutjobs like the people at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, people are beginning to realize that... it's ridiculous to exclude trans women (and include trans men!) in order to maintain feminist/women-only spaces.

I also don't think that a lesbian who is afraid of being ostracized for dating you is going to see you as a woman, either. Because they're going to constantly be thinking, "Oh shit, do other people think I'm dating a man right now?????" Whereas a lesbian who sees you as a woman is going to say, "But I am dating a woman. Duh."

Again, best of luck. :cake:

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GirlInside
I also don't think that a lesbian who is afraid of being ostracized for dating you is going to see you as a woman, either. Because they're going to constantly be thinking, "Oh shit, do other people think I'm dating a man right now?????" Whereas a lesbian who sees you as a woman is going to say, "But I am dating a woman. Duh."

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

I knew a lesbian who openly admitted to me that she saw me as female. She also said she could "almost" fall in love with me if she were my age (she's older), and that she thought a lesbian my age would be all right with my physical appearance (the analogy she used was aging, that is, older couples are still attracted to each other in spite of the physical changes). She never said anything more directly than that, but my parents and I think she was attracted to me. She mentioned that she didn't tell anyone she knew that she knew me, and she never invited me anyplace where her lesbian friends might see us. She never said why, but she didn't have to. We all knew why.

It's like an interracial relationship in a community where it's forbidden. A white lesbian could fall in love with a black woman and perhaps see her as white if she's light-skinned enough (especially if she shows no traces of African-American culture). But if it's forbidden in the community, it doesn't matter how she sees the relationship; it matters how the rest of the community sees it. She could say, "But I am dating a white person," all she wants. If the rest of the community thinks she's dating a black person, that's what she has to think about. (In fact, because of the "one-drop" rule, it used to be that a person could look white and still be considered black.)

Another thing that comes to mind is the joke about how [insert sexual practice here] is like riding a moped; it's fun until your friends catch you doing it. :)

The point of all this is, transmisogyny may be a load of crap, but just because a belief is stupid doesn't mean it isn't there. Like the square root of 2, it's irrational, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

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First of all, you can't figure these things out a priori, second of all, you're not the only transperson in the world, and third of all, I don't think all cispeople are as big of jerks as you describe.

I'm not so sure that's the problem.

For me, it never gets to the level of someone wanting me as a man, because anyone who wants a man usually isn't attracted to me in the first place. To give you an illustration, 30-40% of women who meet me for the first time (by my count) see me as female, and I look like an average biological male.

"Jerks" was probably too harsh a word when you're just saying that you have a smaller target audience because you're a transwoman who looks male. Have I got what you're saying right? If so, I take the correction. Still, I still don't think you've ruled out absolutely everyone from your target audience.

Another thought: there are many factors other than your gender that play a role in whether people are attracted to you, like whether you seem confident and send out signals of availability. It's all really complicated.

I know that as a ciswoman, my biggest problem in the dating arena has always been weeding out all the creeps who want to have sex with me. And I have no idea how to get anywhere with straight women, because none of them want to have sex with me. So if this strikes you as unsympathetic, uncomprehending flailing, let me know and I will shut up and think more.

So it's not really a surprise that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me. However, they are forbidden from acting on this. Even if they were willing to risk being ostracized for me (which no one ever is regardless of the issue), I wouldn't feel right about being the cause of their excommunication.

OK, this is an area where I really do feel comfortable calling some people jerks (namely, those who ostracize transwomen and people who date them.) Grr. I'm not sure that they represent all lesbians, though, just the loudest and most annoying. (I would like for a lesbian to come and tell me how I am right, and how she has done a some kind of to make her community welcoming to transwomen.) But I'm a little worried that I just believe this because I want it to be true.

I do like the idea of finding a transwoman, though. Especially since a disproportionate number of transpeople are asexual (1/3 of post-transition MTFs who were sexual before are asexual, plus there are those who are asexual to begin with). Who knows, maybe I'd be more open to romance and sex with someone who is attracted to me as a woman.

This sounds like a good idea.

I am cisgendered (albeit a little weird) and unsure how to label my orientation (though I usually say "pansexual" if people want to push it). One of my previous relationships was with a non-binary-gendered person, and it was not a problem. In fact, it was like a breath of fresh air to have someone who wasn't making stupid assumptions about my personality and preferences based on the shape of my body.

Funny, most non-binary-gendered people I know are attracted to one sex or the other.

This person prefers women, but as Draconis says, they have had to think a lot harder about what "woman" means, and so they didn't work all the time to shove me into a little box. And other people had a harder time shoving us into a the box labeled "hetero couple". I did probably experience more street harassment then than at any other time in my life, so there were tradeoffs. Still, it was refreshing not to have people assume that I was having my movie tickets paid for.

My cisgendered husband has been approached for sex by a number of lesbians, to my perpetual envy.

In that case, are you absolutely sure he's cisgendered? Even if he says he is, he could be fooling himself. (Guess how I know this.)

I'm pretty sure he's cisgendered. Nobody everybody knows anything 100%, but I'm as sure about that as I am about a lot of other things I believe. He doesn't seem to mind being addressed and treated as male, or to find the idea of being female interesting.

He says lesbians like him because he is a safe way to experiment.

I think human sexual flexibility is under-appreciated, and a lot of people who get called gay or straight (particularly straight, which is the default) aren't really 100% monosexual.

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I also don't think that a lesbian who is afraid of being ostracized for dating you is going to see you as a woman, either. Because they're going to constantly be thinking, "Oh shit, do other people think I'm dating a man right now?????" Whereas a lesbian who sees you as a woman is going to say, "But I am dating a woman. Duh."

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

I knew a lesbian who openly admitted to me that she saw me as female. She also said she could "almost" fall in love with me if she were my age (she's older), and that she thought a lesbian my age would be all right with my physical appearance (the analogy she used was aging, that is, older couples are still attracted to each other in spite of the physical changes). She never said anything more directly than that, but my parents and I think she was attracted to me. She mentioned that she didn't tell anyone she knew that she knew me, and she never invited me anyplace where her lesbian friends might see us. She never said why, but she didn't have to. We all knew why.

It's like an interracial relationship in a community where it's forbidden. A white lesbian could fall in love with a black woman and perhaps see her as white if she's light-skinned enough (especially if she shows no traces of African-American culture). But if it's forbidden in the community, it doesn't matter how she sees the relationship; it matters how the rest of the community sees it. She could say, "But I am dating a white person," all she wants. If the rest of the community thinks she's dating a black person, that's what she has to think about. (In fact, because of the "one-drop" rule, it used to be that a person could look white and still be considered black.)

Another thing that comes to mind is the joke about how [insert sexual practice here] is like riding a moped; it's fun until your friends catch you doing it. :)

The point of all this is, transmisogyny may be a load of crap, but just because a belief is stupid doesn't mean it isn't there. Like the square root of 2, it's irrational, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Ugh, that really sucks, with the lesbian you mention. Ok, it makes more sense when you put it like that. >_____< Obviously I'm not in the exact same boat as you, but I still do like to keep optimistic about the whole situation. *shrug*

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So it's not really a surprise that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me. However, they are forbidden from acting on this. Even if they were willing to risk being ostracized for me (which no one ever is regardless of the issue), I wouldn't feel right about being the cause of their excommunication.

OK, this is an area where I really do feel comfortable calling some people jerks (namely, those who ostracize transwomen and people who date them.) Grr. I'm not sure that they represent all lesbians, though, just the loudest and most annoying. (I would like for a lesbian to come and tell me how I am right, and how she has done a some kind of to make her community welcoming to transwomen.) But I'm a little worried that I just believe this because I want it to be true.

Hmm, now I'm wondering whether this wasn't a slightly messed up way to put things; presumably transwomen are in a better position to know whether various lesbian communities are welcoming than lesbians are. Like how I can ignore it if I'm stepping on your gouty toe and it hurts, but you'll have a harder time.

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mort paradis

I've met both kinds of lesbians, the ones that would date a trans person, and the ones that wouldn't. And I just don't understand the ones that wouldn't. But I normally add that in with not understanding relationships in the first place.

I think even worse are the people who say they can handle it, that they are okay with it, but then when you assert some part of your gender identity, and this happens more frequently when one is transitioning, then they back out and run away screaming. That, or they try to stop you or change your mind. Then maybe throw in some line like how they never really saw you as <insert gender identity>.

I think part of the problem with some lesbians not wanting their lesbian friends to know if they are dating a trans person when otherwise they are okay with the whole trans thing, is that they see being a lesbian as more of a culture than an orientation. (okay that sounds really awkward typed out :mellow:) In other words, to them being a lesbian comes with this, this, and this, and you are supposed to be like this, and not like this, etc, instead of it being, okay I'm predominately attracted to other women.

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Elliott Ford

First point. I KNOW a case of 2a. And they're the cutest couple ever. She's a non-op, she still dresses as an androgynous male. He is heterosexual. He sees no problem having a relationship with her, he LOVES her, why should he care that people mistakenly think he's gay?

i also know lesbians in relations with trans women, trans men and genderqueers whilst still identifying as lesbian. And i know a straight woman who barely raised an eyebrow when she found out her partner of 10 years is bigendered and wishes to be assumed to be female rather than male as her "default" gender. People come in all kinds.

I think you're right Girlinside. That's definitely what I've heard from other transfolk. Before I transitioned I thought it was irresponsible of trans people not to tell their dates right away, but now I understand why they wait a while. If a person already likes you you've got half a chance they won't run for the hills when you tell them you're trans. If they know you're trans ahead of time they won't even consider going with you in the first place.

That's why I'll tell them first off, actually. I dealt with the drama of someone who didn't accept me once- and that was enough. Never again, I'm not even letting a person like that buy me dinner, they're not worth my time. Either you're a-okay with dating a neutrois, or you're not my type- and I'm not interested enough in dating to care about the slim pickings that leaves. If anything, I'm grateful for it. If I'm going to deal with a relationship I want to be damned sure it'll work out- and the fewer people who fit my standards, the fewer times I have to deal with a relationship with the wrong person.

i agree. I know i don't exactly look like a man right now. But i won't spend time with anyone who can't cope with the fact that i am male. My best friend uses my existance as an acid test when she meets new people, casually slipping in the fact that her best friend is FtM into conversation and using the reaction to gauge whether she wishes to continue socialising with this person. She doesn't want to associate with anyone who'd have a problem with my existance :)

I think part of the problem with some lesbians not wanting their lesbian friends to know if they are dating a trans person when otherwise they are okay with the whole trans thing, is that they see being a lesbian as more of a culture than an orientation. (okay that sounds really awkward typed out :mellow:) In other words, to them being a lesbian comes with this, this, and this, and you are supposed to be like this, and not like this, etc, instead of it being, okay I'm predominately attracted to other women.

i've noticed this. the lesbian "culture" is a case in point for the reasoning behind bi-phobia. You can be such a thing as a bisexual lesbian. I know at least one. But she feels uncomfortable admitting to being attracted to (a few) men. I've had to console her in the past for "being a rubbish lesbian" for kissing a transman.

BUT it later turned out that she was more worried about hurting HIM. She felt she wasn't "allowed" to be attracted to him because she identified as a lesbian and that being attracted to him would imply that she saw him as female, which she didn't. She identifies as lesbian despite being sexually attracted to a range of people as she can only see herself having a relationship with a woman.

Identities can turn into identity politics and people can forget that they are not their labels. I like to think that love can get round it all.

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I do like the idea of finding a transwoman, though. Especially since a disproportionate number of transpeople are asexual (1/3 of post-transition MTFs who were sexual before are asexual, plus there are those who are asexual to begin with). Who knows, maybe I'd be more open to romance and sex with someone who is attracted to me as a woman.

I've always been curious about dating an MtF, partly because I seem to get along better with them than cispeople and transmen. And, yes, the fact they don't seem to be nearly as sexual as most people does help.

OK, this is an area where I really do feel comfortable calling some people jerks (namely, those who ostracize transwomen and people who date them.) Grr. I'm not sure that they represent all lesbians, though, just the loudest and most annoying. (I would like for a lesbian to come and tell me how I am right, and how she has done a some kind of to make her community welcoming to transwomen.) But I'm a little worried that I just believe this because I want it to be true.

Even if, as individuals, the majority of lesbians would be a-okay with it, all it takes is a strong minority who says it's bad to be the problem. Too many people will go along at first because they don't think about it- then they realize that they don't agree,but pretend to because they worry the rest of the group does believe it, so go along iwth it because they fear the same ostracizing that they condemn others to.

I think human sexual flexibility is under-appreciated, and a lot of people who get called gay or straight (particularly straight, which is the default) aren't really 100% monosexual.

I agree with that. People feel pressure to fit a label completely, yet I know quite a few lesbians who've dated men. Actually, all but one of the lesbians whose dating history I know have dated at least one cismale, even the one who gave me trouble for dating a male-bodied (not a lot, but when they found out they aren't FtM did a "but... bioguys are ew" thing). But most of the time they want a female partner- they don't let the exceptions define them because they're just exceptions, they're not bisexual and there was no curiosity so they're not bicurious- so they still identify as lesbians, even though others can give them trouble for having been with a guy.

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oneofthesun
That's why I'll tell them first off, actually. I dealt with the drama of someone who didn't accept me once- and that was enough. Never again, I'm not even letting a person like that buy me dinner, they're not worth my time. Either you're a-okay with dating a neutrois, or you're not my type- and I'm not interested enough in dating to care about the slim pickings that leaves. If anything, I'm grateful for it. If I'm going to deal with a relationship I want to be damned sure it'll work out- and the fewer people who fit my standards, the fewer times I have to deal with a relationship with the wrong person.

I just don't date. Solves a lot of problems.

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That's why I'll tell them first off, actually. I dealt with the drama of someone who didn't accept me once- and that was enough. Never again, I'm not even letting a person like that buy me dinner, they're not worth my time. Either you're a-okay with dating a neutrois, or you're not my type- and I'm not interested enough in dating to care about the slim pickings that leaves. If anything, I'm grateful for it. If I'm going to deal with a relationship I want to be damned sure it'll work out- and the fewer people who fit my standards, the fewer times I have to deal with a relationship with the wrong person.

I just don't date. Solves a lot of problems.

Ahaha.... nice. XD

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I just don't date. Solves a lot of problems.

I don't really date, we more do the "want to be my partner?" "Sure" thing with people I know well than the "do you want to go to the movies and have an awkward time with a near stranger?" thing that dating brings to mind. Either way- everyone I've been with has known about me being asexual and trans before we started dating. With one exception- and this was a person I thought knew (I wouldn't've even considered agreeing if I thought they didn't know), and who I didn't know very well.

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This thread makes me sad. :(

I'm trans, and... well, I'm not quite sure if I'm romantic or aromantic. XD But I've had straight women be attracted to me as a man, and lesbians be attracted to me with the understanding that they're attracted to a man.

I've had a couple of lesbians attracted to while I was pre-emergnt, with me later trying to convince them that I was "male" then having them argue or explain to me how I couldn't have possibly been male.

the one's I'm still friends with now ask me fashion advice exclaiming that I'm a girlie girl or that I'm way more feminine than they are..

it still amuses me when GG's ask me advice about makeup, clothing etc.

one of the main things that bugs me about being trans is that when I was pre-op and still attending support groups, other pre/post asking me how to be/act more feminine.

or the occasional jealousy that some showed because of some pre-conceived notion about being a Chromosomal Mosaic and growing up androgynous.

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GirlInside
Ugh, that really sucks, with the lesbian you mention. Ok, it makes more sense when you put it like that. >_____<

Thanks. :)

First of all, you can't figure these things out a priori, second of all, you're not the only transperson in the world, and third of all, I don't think all cispeople are as big of jerks as you describe.

I'm not so sure that's the problem.

For me, it never gets to the level of someone wanting me as a man, because anyone who wants a man usually isn't attracted to me in the first place. To give you an illustration, 30-40% of women who meet me for the first time (by my count) see me as female, and I look like an average biological male.

"Jerks" was probably too harsh a word when you're just saying that you have a smaller target audience because you're a transwoman who looks male. Have I got what you're saying right? If so, I take the correction. Still, I still don't think you've ruled out absolutely everyone from your target audience.

Yes, you have that right. Officially, I present as male. I don't do anything that is strictly forbidden to men (such as wearing a dress). But since I'm not seeking to date a straight woman or make friends with a man, that leaves me a lot of room.

Another thought: there are many factors other than your gender that play a role in whether people are attracted to you, like whether you seem confident and send out signals of availability. It's all really complicated.

True, but it doesn't explain the fact that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me.

I know that as a ciswoman, my biggest problem in the dating arena has always been weeding out all the creeps who want to have sex with me. And I have no idea how to get anywhere with straight women, because none of them want to have sex with me. So if this strikes you as unsympathetic, uncomprehending flailing, let me know and I will shut up and think more.

No, that's fine.

So it's not really a surprise that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me. However, they are forbidden from acting on this. Even if they were willing to risk being ostracized for me (which no one ever is regardless of the issue), I wouldn't feel right about being the cause of their excommunication.

OK, this is an area where I really do feel comfortable calling some people jerks (namely, those who ostracize transwomen and people who date them.) Grr. I'm not sure that they represent all lesbians, though, just the loudest and most annoying. (I would like for a lesbian to come and tell me how I am right, and how she has done a some kind of to make her community welcoming to transwomen.) But I'm a little worried that I just believe this because I want it to be true.

I think you just believe this because you want it to be true. My mom told me about how, a long time ago, she had a lesbian friend who objected to her having a male dog. In this respect, it is worse than even the worst racists; I can't imagine that even a KKK member would object to someone having a black dog. :)

I am cisgendered (albeit a little weird) and unsure how to label my orientation (though I usually say "pansexual" if people want to push it). One of my previous relationships was with a non-binary-gendered person, and it was not a problem. In fact, it was like a breath of fresh air to have someone who wasn't making stupid assumptions about my personality and preferences based on the shape of my body.

Funny, most non-binary-gendered people I know are attracted to one sex or the other.

This person prefers women, but as Draconis says, they have had to think a lot harder about what "woman" means, and so they didn't work all the time to shove me into a little box. And other people had a harder time shoving us into a the box labeled "hetero couple". I did probably experience more street harassment then than at any other time in my life, so there were tradeoffs. Still, it was refreshing not to have people assume that I was having my movie tickets paid for.

Really? What kind of street harassment? What was it for? Did they think the relationship was homosexual, or were they angry at the existence of a relationship without rigid male/female roles?

I'm pretty sure he's cisgendered. Nobody everybody knows anything 100%, but I'm as sure about that as I am about a lot of other things I believe. He doesn't seem to mind being addressed and treated as male, or to find the idea of being female interesting.

He says lesbians like him because he is a safe way to experiment.

Hmm... maybe no one sees him as a threat precisely because he's a man inside and out--a lesbian couldn't actually fall in love with him, so anything with him would be temporary and not disrupt The Natural Order. Whereas lesbians can and do fall for me, so if they didn't have their rules, I could be a permanent addition to the lesbian community, thus impurifying their sacred bastion of pure femaleness... [rolls eyes]

I think human sexual flexibility is under-appreciated, and a lot of people who get called gay or straight (particularly straight, which is the default) aren't really 100% monosexual.

True, but our culture recognizes no sexual orientations between gay and straight; bisexuals seem to be lumped into one category or the other.

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GirlInside

Stupid thing wouldn't work because my post was too long...

I've met both kinds of lesbians, the ones that would date a trans person, and the ones that wouldn't. And I just don't understand the ones that wouldn't. But I normally add that in with not understanding relationships in the first place.

I think the racial analogy really helps here. There are white people who would date a black person and white people who wouldn't. When the culture is very racist, the number of white people who would drops significantly.

I think even worse are the people who say they can handle it, that they are okay with it, but then when you assert some part of your gender identity, and this happens more frequently when one is transitioning, then they back out and run away screaming. That, or they try to stop you or change your mind. Then maybe throw in some line like how they never really saw you as <insert gender identity>.

This is why I avoid anyone who is attracted to men.

I think part of the problem with some lesbians not wanting their lesbian friends to know if they are dating a trans person when otherwise they are okay with the whole trans thing, is that they see being a lesbian as more of a culture than an orientation. (okay that sounds really awkward typed out :mellow:) In other words, to them being a lesbian comes with this, this, and this, and you are supposed to be like this, and not like this, etc, instead of it being, okay I'm predominately attracted to other women.

No, I understand what you mean. The problem is, lesbians make up such a small minority; by definition, they cannot or will not date outside this minority. The lesbian community is the only way they can find partners; otherwise, it's like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. So, if you're a woman and are attracted to other women, you can't date a straight woman, because she won't be willing to participate (unless she's bisexual). All that's left is the lesbian community. So, unless you want to be celibate, you have to play by their rules. Once you make this decision, your entire social circle is in that community. If you break their rules, you are left without a social life.

oneofthesun: The piece about not dating was where I was going with this long-winded discussion :)

Kristine: I know what you mean--I've had GGs tell me I'm more feminine than they are. My mom asks me for makeup/clothing/accessorizing advice all the time. I have to know: What did they say when they argued that you couldn't possibly be male? I'm just curious because I've had people tell me the same thing.

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Another thought: there are many factors other than your gender that play a role in whether people are attracted to you, like whether you seem confident and send out signals of availability. It's all really complicated.

True, but it doesn't explain the fact that more lesbians than straight women are attracted to me.

Oh no, I wasn't looking to explain that. I was just saying that your gender might not be the whole explanation of why you find it hard to find a partner: there's also the fact that you're not looking for a partner and maybe not super confident. I believe you that being a female person with a male body doesn't help, but maybe it is not such a hopeless problem.

I think you just believe this because you want it to be true. My mom told me about how, a long time ago, she had a lesbian friend who objected to her having a male dog. In this respect, it is worse than even the worst racists; I can't imagine that even a KKK member would object to someone having a black dog. :)

If you're the psychotic kind of lesbian, shouldn't you just want people to have male dogs and neuter them? :P

But seriously, I'm not disputing that some lesbians are utterly horrible. I used to argue with them over the Internet before I got jaded and cynical. I know one such person in real life. Still, wanting to have sex with women isn't the same thing as buying into the creepier aspects of lesbian separatism. In fact, what makes this all really weird that some of the people who buy into lesbian separatism, creepy or otherwise, have a sexual preference for men. But they have a philosophical belief that they should devote their time and energy to women, so they don't have sex with men.

There's also the degree to which the separatists have influenced the broader culture. I would imagine that that varies according to where you are, what social class you're in, and how old you are.

This person prefers women, but as Draconis says, they have had to think a lot harder about what "woman" means, and so they didn't work all the time to shove me into a little box. And other people had a harder time shoving us into a the box labeled "hetero couple". I did probably experience more street harassment then than at any other time in my life, so there were tradeoffs. Still, it was refreshing not to have people assume that I was having my movie tickets paid for.

Really? What kind of street harassment? What was it for? Did they think the relationship was homosexual, or were they angry at the existence of a relationship without rigid male/female roles?

They didn't really present us with reasoned explanations of what was bothering them about our relationship, so I'm not sure. We were occasionally called "dykes", which suggests they read my partner as female, at least on those occasions. We were also called "fags" a couple of times, though. (I'm not sure how they missed my ginormous boobs.) Mostly we had incoherent things yelled at us out of cars, or got creepily followed, or had people threaten to beat us up. One guy threatened to beat my partner up and "steal" me.

I was not living in the most liberal town at that time.

I'm pretty sure he's cisgendered. Nobody everybody knows anything 100%, but I'm as sure about that as I am about a lot of other things I believe. He doesn't seem to mind being addressed and treated as male, or to find the idea of being female interesting.

He says lesbians like him because he is a safe way to experiment.

Hmm... maybe no one sees him as a threat precisely because he's a man inside and out--a lesbian couldn't actually fall in love with him, so anything with him would be temporary and not disrupt The Natural Order. Whereas lesbians can and do fall for me, so if they didn't have their rules, I could be a permanent addition to the lesbian community, thus impurifying their sacred bastion of pure femaleness... [rolls eyes]

I don't think lesbians who believe in sacred bastions of pure femaleness are usually the ones going after my husband. But it's true, they do usually treat him as a fun experiment rather than somebody to fall in love with.

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GirlInside
They didn't really present us with reasoned explanations of what was bothering them about our relationship, so I'm not sure. We were occasionally called "dykes", which suggests they read my partner as female, at least on those occasions. We were also called "fags" a couple of times, though. (I'm not sure how they missed my ginormous boobs.) Mostly we had incoherent things yelled at us out of cars, or got creepily followed, or had people threaten to beat us up. One guy threatened to beat my partner up and "steal" me.

I was not living in the most liberal town at that time.

Another reason for me to avoid dating. :)

The more I learn, the more it seems that the Sworn Virgin way is the best way for a transperson. (Sworn Virgins are FTMs in rural Albanian villages who swear virginity instead of transitioning--they are able to live as men as long as they don't have sex. I think of myself as an unofficial MTF equivalent.)

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The more I learn, the more it seems that the Sworn Virgin way is the best way for a transperson. (Sworn Virgins are FTMs in rural Albanian villages who swear virginity instead of transitioning--they are able to live as men as long as they don't have sex. I think of myself as an unofficial MTF equivalent.)

The best option for you. I never plan to have sex-sex (I feel like I'm 12 again. do you like like him?) :rolleyes: and transition is completely unrelated to that- transitioning isn't so I can fit society or so I can have sex, it's because my body is wrong and my options are to live as I should be or die as I am.

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Min Farshaw

I've been thinking a lot lately about the issues brought up in this thread. It's very frustrating being alone and knowing that these various labels and preconceptions get in the way of establishing anything special with someone. I think my last ex-girlfriend was that one-in-a-million for me, someone who identified as lesbian and never made so much as a passing comment about me being Trans until some months into the relationship. Unfortunately, her "I'm just not into sex" stance seemed to disappear very quickly, and that pretty much killed the relationship in the end. Thinking about the complications surrounding any future relationship is so overwhelming and frustrating.

But seriously, I'm not disputing that some lesbians are utterly horrible. I used to argue with them over the Internet before I got jaded and cynical. I know one such person in real life. Still, wanting to have sex with women isn't the same thing as buying into the creepier aspects of lesbian separatism. In fact, what makes this all really weird that some of the people who buy into lesbian separatism, creepy or otherwise, have a sexual preference for men. But they have a philosophical belief that they should devote their time and energy to women, so they don't have sex with men.

I read some stuff not too long ago about some of the uglier aspects of separatism, and haven't been able to get it out of my head since then. It just makes me feel so sad that there are people out there who allow hate to so completely define their worldview. It reminded me very much of trying to have a rational conversation with a fundamentalist - you'd make more progress trying to headbutt your way through a brick wall. Any evidence contrary to the "all men are rapists and all women are victims" worldview just gets ignored, and the evil phallic tentacles of the Patriarchy are everywhere.

I couldn't help but feel that underneath all of their righteous anger and hate, they were all just very, very scared. I try not to be too judgemental since we all have our own distorted way of viewing the world due to our own unique beliefs and experiences, but the absolute willful ignorance and hatred that was being directed to Trans people inparticular just left me a little shaken. I'm just trying to make my way through life and be as true to myself as I can, and don't understand why anyone who has personally experienced gender or sexuality issues would feel so violently opposed to that.

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