How many people on Aven are neutrois?

[squiggle]

I'm curious 'cos I've finally decided that it was time I came out as neutrois...

I'm one of these people who did a male (or thereabouts) to female (or thereabouts) transition.

It was a compromise because as well as being ace I'm also psychologically agendered.

It was a compromise because at the time I transitioned there wasn't really an option for people who identify as neither male or female to access surgeries and stuff to help them eradicate unwanted gender markers /primary and sexual characteristics from their bodies.

I thought long and hard about what I wanted, which was basically to end up in some kind of prepubertal agendered unsexed state. -To obtain a kind of body that had not differentiated as male or female, but somehow remained in some kind of default state that would as a result appear androgynous and thus difficult for other to gender.

As a kid due to genetic and hormonal peculiarities my body was always very underdeveloped -but I preferred being that way and thus wanted to gain access to medical technologies that would help me remain that way -only I was forced to pretend I was MTF to access those technologies. Being 100% honest about how I really felt (ie agendered) was not really an option for me, because that would have precluded me from gaining access.

I transitioned to get rid of what I saw as the worst primary sexual characteristics I had, ie a penis and gonads. I say that loosely because my left gonad hadn't developed normally. -That was discovered during the surgery I had ten years ago.

The thing I couldn't really get across to people at the time I transitioned was that I was doing it to get rid of unwanted gender characteristics, rather than gain new ones. It was a case of having no dick, and no balls -great... A clit? - It wasn't really that important to me but 'hey, why not?' I thought... But as for having a vagina made I didn't really want one. I kinda felt like I had to say I wanted one to get through the transition in order to get the other things I wanted. I ended up with one, -a pretty fucked up one, because the internal surgery didn't work properly -which I now want stripped out for health reasons. I prefer not to touch it unless I have to. Sometimes I have to to put ointment inside it when it gets all sore/dischargy. blehh. I don't really know why I put up with it so long. If I'd been a 'proper' transwoman with a sex drive I'd have demanded to have had it fixed to have sex with it. Since I'm ace I haven't felt that need and as a result have put up with stingy discomfort for ten years. As for my breasts I didn't want breasts. I would have preferred to have remained flat chested. Pre-op I took cyproterone acetate -and a lower dose of oestrogen than I was supposed to take because I only really wanted to effects of oestrogen on my skin. Post op I grew breasts -not big ones. But I would have preferred not to have had them. -I might have done damage to my body as a result of taking less that the 'maintainance dose' of oestrogen that I was supposed to take for a while... -eek!

In an ideal world I'd prefer not to have any sex hormones in my body at all and have no secondary sexual characteristics -but having no sex hormones in the body is really bad for your bones I've found out -so that's not really an option if I want to stay healthy.

As for sex, I never envisaged myself being penetrated. If anything's put inside me it feels as though I'm somehow being probed or gendered by the other person. The few times I had sex pre-op it was even worse. On the few occasions I let my self be persuaded into trying to have sex I felt like I was being used like some kind of sexual pogo stick for the other person to get cheap thrills from, -or I felt I was having my body gendered by some kind of vortex -especially on this occasion where this girl spiked me with LSD and forced herself on me.

I've found that usually people's intentions are / have been good when they've wanted to have sex with me but I find any sex act act disturbing and uncomfortable. Sex just doesn't work given my mental bodymap -which is kinda like that of a grown up foetus. -Plus I don't experience sexual desire -so why bother in the first place... Plus it is at least physically uncomfortable or at worst it hurts...

I tried for a long time to live in a female 'role' but I'm equally as inept at it as I was at living as a boy -'because somehow my brain is just not gendered.

I have these wierd issues when when I look at myself in the mirror. If I look too female it disturbs me. If I look to male it disturbs me. I try to look as androgynous as I can to deal with that -but people still gender me one way or another. I don't like my 'official' name because it's too gendered -and really it was just a means to an end of getting rid of my 'nads. For a while I legally changed my name to something that wasn't gender specific and for a while I had bank cards that were not-gender specific. -But my family never really called me it. -And I was subtly persuaded to change it back to the female name. :(

Now I'm wanting to change it again. I don't like the way that correspondence comes addressed to a gendered name.

I'd ideally like Squiggle, my online name to be my real name.

I'm gonna be going to my doctor soon with various stuff from neutrois websites in the hope that I can get something done to make it easier for me to live in this body and as I would really like to be.

In other posts on aven and other places I'd sort of semi-come out about this stuff but I never really thought to identify as neutrois -It was only recently that I heard the term and figured out that was what I was. For a while I identified as genderqueer, albeit less the 'queer' and less 'gender'! To a certain extent I can relate to genderqueers who try to blend gender and thus end up looking androgynous. With me it's a case of looking 'androgynous' not through wanting to blend anything but rather as a result of getting rid of, or wanting to hide gender characteristics. I have a lot of friends who identify as genderqueer on the Bar Wotever scene in London. But I'm in a minority there. Most of my friends there are very much into exploring queer sex as a way of transcending gender. I'm kind of looking at things from a different perspective though, because I don't really have a gender to start with, and find any sexual situations awkward, and sex itself to be somewhat psychologically disturbing in relation to the way it might somehow gender me.

Frequently I think I'm some kind of otherkin that somehow, perhaps inadvertently, incarnated in a human body -and thus ended up in one in a state of partial amnesia... I don't know... -Maybe I should write an asexual neutrois 'mysticism/ sci-fi / fantasy' (?) story based on it or something! :) -Or a comic book if I can find a good artist!?

Anyhow, I'm curious to know how many neutrois people there are on here?

I've noticed a few people are on the various gender threads. -And I've noticed a few of the neutrois people off here also post on a web forum called whatisgender. -Which is cool. :) (I outed myself on there too...)

[AVENCakes]

I identify as neutrois as well and want to transition to it. I'm kind of lucky that I couldn't start T when I wanted to, looking at it I only wanted it because I thought it'd make an FtM transition easier,a nd that was close neough to what I wanted. I'd end up in the same boat as you did.

I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but I saw your post on WiG. and *hugs*

[Elliott Ford]

*HUGS* &

Erm, well I'm not exactly neutrois actually myself but a lot of what you said was very close to stuff i do feel so i felt the need to reply. but my reply got long and angsty so i'm posting it as a new topic.

[Elliott Ford]

*HUGS* &

Erm, well I'm not exactly neutrois actually myself but a lot of what you said was very close to stuff i do feel so i felt the need to reply. but my reply got long and angsty so i'm posting it as a new topic.

Done!

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php?showtopic=40103

(sorry about the multiple posting, i don't know why that's happened)

[Elliott Ford]

Also, now i'm a bit happier i can remember what else i was going to say.

I more-or-less identify as non-human.

i'm not actually sure if it has anything to do with me being ace, trans and autistic but i've been claiming to be an alien ever since whenever the concept of sentient nonhuman beings from other planets was first introduced to me.

it's at the point now where i kinda sorta "believe" that i'm not human. i mean, i will not admit to being human, i will tell people that i'm an Offworlder with a completely straight face and i take (and on occasion use) the word human as an insult but i kinda also know that i'm almost definitely NOT an alien... I'm wierd :)

[Preskom]

+1

I curently do not have the ressources to change my body to feel more confortable...

I don't know If I would if I could.. as long as I'm with my partner...because he doesn't want me to come out or to change, he can't take social "pressure".

[AVENCakes]

+1

I curently do not have the ressources to change my body to feel more confortable...

I don't know If I would if I could.. as long as I'm with my partner...because he doesn't want me to come out or to change, he can't take social "pressure".

You have no idea just how much I want to say about your partner right now.

But, really, don't base it solely on that. I'm sure if you asked most of the women married to MtFs who came out long after saying "I do" they'd say that, if you'd asked them before they found out or even when they did, that they couldn't handle the pressure. Some can't. Some stick with it and find out that they get a much happier and more satisfying relationship because their partner is finally happy and comfortable with who they are. But unless you're sure you're happy as you are, and that's your choice, not your partner's, I'd say give it a few more thoughts before deciding not to.

[Parth]

Your post is so much like me. Yay neutrois people!

I thought long and hard about what I wanted, which was basically to end up in some kind of prepubertal agendered unsexed state. -To obtain a kind of body that had not differentiated as male or female, but somehow remained in some kind of default state that would as a result appear androgynous and thus difficult for other to gender.

Essentially, that's the way I currently am as a person with Swyer Syndrome. But it comes with the price of bone mass density problems, which I need to address sooner rather than later.

Basically I look mostly like a girl but for the last couple of years I've had short hair, and I've never looked girlish. I have enormous feet (well, if you consider me a female at least - they are standard size for a man) and my body shape is quite androgynous. I have very small breasts and hips only a little wider than my waist, and my sister tells me my butt looks like a guy's. Too much information? :lol:

The way I am is the way I'm comfortable and the way I want to stay. There's little way of knowing whether it's because it's all I know or not, but I can say that during a 6 month stint taking estrogen, I was completely turned off the idea of my breasts growing. They're uncomfortable enough with the size they already are, thank you!

[squiggle]

Your post is so much like me. Yay neutrois people!

Yay!

Essentially, that's the way I currently am as a person with Swyer Syndrome. But it comes with the price of bone mass density problems, which I need to address sooner rather than later.

I know about Sywer syndrome -that it's a form of androgen insensitivity. -When I was at Lancaster University donkeys years ago I knew someone with it. -She was one of the few people I've met who didn't make any attempt to gender me -which was nice. She had short hair that she used to dye purple and blue and deliberately made herself look as androgynous as possible. She used to hang out with a bunch of tree protesters I recall. She told me how she was in this double bind of having to take oestrogen although she didn't really want to. Sadly I lost touch with her when I left.

It was a shame 'cos I had more in common with her than I actually realized at the time...

Post-op I gradually got more and more annoyed with the fact I was developing breasts so for a few years I stopped taking hormones at all. -I've potentially lost bone mass as a result.- When I discovered the risk I'd put myself at I panicked a bit. I'm taking oestrogen again, but the question is how low can I go with it and still be healthy?

I feel happier when I have no hormones at all, but I need to take them

I've been looking at other ways of trying to remedy the situation. -Taking calcium, vitamin D3, and vitamin K supplements, eating a low acidity diet (verging on vegan), never ever drinking coke ever (-cos it's the absolute worst thing for you bones!) and drinking four cups of hot golden syrup(/or maple syrup) and molasses instead (also nice chilled in a sodastream :) I'm a big fan of molasses 'cos it's got the highest concentration of absorbable calcium of any food! -I've also heard about a drug called raloxifene that's supposed to be good for building up bones but doesn't lead to more breast growth but I don't know much about anybody's experiences taking it.

Basically I look mostly like a girl but for the last couple of years I've had short hair, and I've never looked girlish. I have enormous feet (well, if you consider me a female at least - they are standard size for a man) and my body shape is quite androgynous. I have very small breasts and hips only a little wider than my waist, and my sister tells me my butt looks like a guy's. Too much information? :lol:

I've got a similar body shape. My feet are about size 8-9 in UK sizes. Women's shoes go up to size 8 here but since I've also got a high instep they never fit. -Not that I'm remotely interested in girly shoes. I was a bit upset when I discovered I wouldn't fit into silver ugg boots in winter :(

Hair. I never know what to do with it. I've had it all colours, pillarbox red, pink, blue, purple, I've had extensions, I've had braids, I've had a little white bleached crop, I've had it cut into extreme bobs. You name it I've done it. -Recently I've been trying to go for some kind of ambiguous looking layered haircut. I probably just look like an emo. :)

[Parth]

Actually, just to correct you- it's similar to androgen insensitivity in some ways, but actually it's due to an SRY gene mutation. I am affected by androgens; I just don't produce that much due to a lack of gonads.

When I discovered the risk I'd put myself at I panicked a bit. I'm taking oestrogen again, but the question is how low can I go with it and still be healthy?

Yup, it's a toughie. I'm looking into something called Evista, myself. It's supposed to act like estrogen without all the pesky pubertal development involved :D

[squiggle]

I identify as neutrois as well and want to transition to it. I'm kind of lucky that I couldn't start T when I wanted to, looking at it I only wanted it because I thought it'd make an FtM transition easier,a nd that was close neough to what I wanted. I'd end up in the same boat as you did.

I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but I saw your post on WiG. and *hugs*

Cheers for the hugs. *hugs* :cake:

Nope. -I don't mind you mentioning that I posted on WiG.

That's this place -

http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/index.php

WiG's great. -There are loads of neutrois people on there. Yay!

The way that things are set up with transitioning it's too much like a conveyor belt. -Once you get on the conveyor belt it can race you to somewhere you don't want to really be. I can sort of semi-deal with breasts that are one the left AA and on the right an A. I don't think they're gonna grown any bigger after 10 years post-op. Thankfully my nipples never really grew. I do wonder whether they're small enough to get rid of by cannular liposuction (I'm scared of being under general aneasthetic and I don't want scarring) or whether at this stage I would have to get a mastectomy. (which is a bit scary) If you read the post on WiG you're probably in a bit of a mess down below. Shortly after things messed up down there I approached my surgeon and various other doctors in the state sector to try and sort out, what is a potential health risk, but I was given the cold shoulder or told 'since I 'opted out' of National Health Treatment (actually they refused to fund me -because of the UK's 'postcode lottery' for the care of transpeople) I would have to find the money to fix the problems I have down there myself. -I'm kinda like Hedwig out of Hedwig and the Angry Inch down there (on the inside but the outside's OK) but I have a funny way of looking at the fact I was turned away from the doctors who might have initially fixed the problem. In a way it's good that they didn't 'fix me' along standard MTF lines. I look at it as something that's helped me become really sure about who I am and what I am and what I really want down there. -The fact that I still need to be surgically 'fixed' might actually make it easier to get fixed as I want (ie have my failed neovagina removed), and be physically neutrois (which is what I really wanted in the first place anyway...)

If you're neutrois it's good that you didn't go straight on T. It would have put a lot of stress on you physically and emotionally and given you additional secondary sexual characteristics to somehow later get rid of. Male pattern hair loss and facial hair are very difficult secondary sexual characteristics to reverse. -So is thick body hair. Sorting out those things would be very expensive. -Electrolysis cost £1 a minute in London, -and as for hair transplants I shudder to think. I've heard that there are alternate androgens to regular testosterone that can be taken that cannot be metabolised by aromatase or 5α-reductase into estrogenic compounds such as estradiol, or into DHT (the testosterone derivative that's more responsible for male pattern hair loss than serum testosterone itself) but they might be too much for you too if you're neutrois.

(For a while I debated taking a very very low dose of one of those androgens in conjunction with my current low dose of oestrogen -but in the end thought 'No, that would be too much like juggling with chainsaws'... -I thought about it -but I soon decided stuff like that would still probably be too virilising for me. I think that for me a maintenance level oestrogen dose -(and possibly something like raloxifene) would be a better -and safer option.)

I know the effects of testosterone are very strong -partially because I've dated a transman in the past -and because I've had it being naturally produced in my own body. For me it never psychologically gave me a libido. I can imagine if you're asexual and your body started wanting things that would be deeply traumatic. As for my boyfriend he was very hairy from taking it. He was practically furry from head to toe. If you're neutrois an effect like that would be totally disturbing and impossible to deal with.

[mort paradis]

Hi! :)

I'm neutrois as well ^_^ (at least I think....) I've identified all across the board...I can't seem to stay in one place for long :( Let's see if I can remember it all: female, male and female (not exactly androgynous though), male, androgynous male, androgyne, genderqueer, agender/neutrois, genderless, slightly gendered, and now back to neutrois. My way if trying to understand my gender seems to be to pick it up and see if it fits, and for the most part all of those seemed to fit, at least for awhile. Then the past couple of days I've noticed that when I look in the mirror I see a guy - no feeling of disgust with it or anything, just "oh, ok." I'm not really sure what to make of that. I've also lived as both a girl and a boy, and I was comfortable to an extent with both...then when I started getting confused or questioning my gender I would start becoming uncomfortable it. <_<

And then there is the whole gender is a social construct...but I always thought of that as more gender roles than gender identity...and if I start thinking about it too long my head will start hurting :lol: But something I've thought of recently...to backtrack I was talking to my therapist a couple weeks ago, and I brought up how I'm socially inept, and while I had thought it meant another thing wrong with me, she explained that I just never learned the social cues that everyone else had for whatever reason...and then I started later wondering if the same thing had happened with my gender, viewing it as a social construct basically says that as you grow up you learn certain gender cues, roles, etc...so if I never learned them* then it could make sense that I didn't develop those in relation to me- making me genderless...or something

Physically I don't want any sexual characteristics, primary or secondary. I would like everything removed - but like its been said...not good for your health, and since my grandmother has osteoporosis it would be more likely I'm assuming for me to develop bone density problems...maybe, no one really sat down and explained it to me before :lol: For awhile I had the mindset that I really didn't' give a damn about what it would do to my body as long as I didn't have any hormones because no hormones would fit who I am (therefor I would be happier)...and then I started wondering what actual (positive) effects no hormones would give me, and I really have no idea what the answer to that is.

As for otherkin...I've often wondered if I am or not...but at the moment I've resigned myself to "human, maybe" because since I don't want to be human/want to be otherkin it would be hard to come up with an unbiased conclusion (as a funny side note when I was little I would run around telling people I was an alien :P)

YAY people that I have stuff in common with!! *dances badly* XD

*my parents pretty much let me play with what I wanted - didn't matter if they were girl or boy toys, I was pretty active and liked to play pretend - I didn't care if we were playing Power Rangers or playing Barbie- when I actually had friends to play with <_<

[Jordan]

If I pull back my hair into a ponytail I will look manly because I have hard cheekbones and I am biofemale. So for people to identify me as female I must pull out short strands of hair on both sides of my hair I call sideburns. My voice can swing baritone too.

[squiggle]

Hi! :)

I've identified all across the board...I can't seem to stay in one place for long :( Let's see if I can remember it all: female, male and female (not exactly androgynous though), male, androgynous male, androgyne, genderqueer, agender/neutrois, genderless, slightly gendered, and now back to neutrois.

I've kinda gone from little boy male to androgynous teenager male to very feminie goth male (That didn't want male bits -kinda neutrois but I didn't have the words then) to (can I really be?) Female to transwoman? to punky androgynous female to feeling as though I was a bit of a mixture, to polyandrogyne, to pangendered, to some sort of mixture between neutrois and pangendered, to genderqueer, to pretend trannyboy to genderf**k, to genderqueer to (can I be a) girl again? to oh my godd I'm running out of genders to try to be, to neutrois (again) :)

My way if trying to understand my gender seems to be to pick it up and see if it fits, and for the most part all of those seemed to fit, at least for awhile. Then the past couple of days I've noticed that when I look in the mirror I see a guy - no feeling of disgust with it or anything, just "oh, ok." I'm not really sure what to make of that. I've also lived as both a girl and a boy, and I was comfortable to an extent with both...then when I started getting confused or questioning my gender I would start becoming uncomfortable it. <_<

I don't really mind whether people read me as a boy or as a girl. As long as they're polite to me. I remember once on the housing estate where I lived there were these horrible men who yelled 'have you got any f**king bollocks?' out really loud so loads of people could hear. That was really scary. They sounded like cockney gangsters. And occasionally people giggle or smirk -which isn't nice. For half of last year I dressed really boyish, -which shocked a lot of people in the trans community before I came out. There was this moment when I looked in the mirror and I thought 'hey I actually look OK as a boy' even though I prefer it the more ambiguous I look. I find that the longer I stay looking very feminine or more boyish the greater the internal reaction I'll have and the more I'll suddenly internally react against it and freak out. So I've found the best thing to do is to look as androgynous as I can. That way I don't suffer from dysmorphic back and forth swings quite so much.

And then there is the whole gender is a social construct...but I always thought of that as more gender roles than gender identity...and if I start thinking about it too long my head will start hurting :lol: But something I've thought of recently...to backtrack I was talking to my therapist a couple weeks ago, and I brought up how I'm socially inept, and while I had thought it meant another thing wrong with me, she explained that I just never learned the social cues that everyone else had for whatever reason...and then I started later wondering if the same thing had happened with my gender, viewing it as a social construct basically says that as you grow up you learn certain gender cues, roles, etc...so if I never learned them* then it could make sense that I didn't develop those in relation to me- making me genderless...or something

Phew. Gender as a social construct. The whole nature vs. nurture thing. I think of gendered behaviour as largely constructed. 'Roles' definitely. Sexual characteristics and whether one looks male or female -that's biological, or down to hormonal assignment. Gender identity seems to be the way one identifies with those things and internalises them as an identity. I think if one doesn't want a specified 'role', doesn't really care about their gendered behaviour AND doesn't want primary or secondary sexual characteristics then one is most likely to be somewhere in the neutrois, genderfluid, pangendered, genderqueer, genderfluid androgyne kinda zone. Genderfluid's an interesting word cos that can refer either to expression or identity. For a while I felt I felt fluid 'cos I was exploring but I don't feel fluid now, 'cos I'm not exploring any more. As for pangendered I think that means one has distinct aspects of all genders in one's identity. I wondered if I was pangendered for a while because some of my interests are quite masculine (trains) and some are quite feminine (doing gothy electro style makeup and drawing on my face) -but then they're just interests. If they are gendered that's socially constructed -whereas my whole 'Oh my god I've got a gendered body' thing is a lot more neutrois. Genderqueer? I don't know whether to ID as genderqueer or not. In some ways it works as a vague umbrella term -that I'm 'gender different' 'cos I don't feel gendered. It has connotations that don't really fit me -like the idea of blending genders. I don't feel like I'm blending them becuase I don't really have any to blend. And I'm not performing them 'cos there's nothing to perform. Queer? Not really. Queer has too many connotations of sexual queerness -which just goes over the top of my head... And I'm sure there are neutroises out there who don't feel genderqueer 'cos they've never had any contact with those scenes. I did make myself look like a genderqueer pseudo-trannyboy for a while. Again I was exploring and for a while it was interesting. But in the end it got too much for me and I ended up swinging back into a female expression. Androgyne? Tricky. Some people try to be androgynous because it connotates both male and female when I don't feel like I'm either. In terms of a look -some people cultivate it. I try to eradicate things or looking too gendered so I end up looking androgynous by default -sometimes very much so. And the more so the happier I am. :) At Bar Wotever somebody one of my friends gave me a badge with a gender neutral pronoun on. That made me feel all happy inside :)

Physically I don't want any sexual characteristics, primary or secondary. I would like everything removed - but like its been said...not good for your health, and since my grandmother has osteoporosis it would be more likely I'm assuming for me to develop bone density problems...maybe, no one really sat down and explained it to me before :lol: For awhile I had the mindset that I really didn't' give a damn about what it would do to my body as long as I didn't have any hormones because no hormones would fit who I am (therefor I would be happier)...and then I started wondering what actual (positive) effects no hormones would give me, and I really have no idea what the answer to that is.

Since I went down the M2F path obviously I've got no gonads. So I don't have any naturally occuring hormones other than what my adrenal gland's producing and the tiny ammounts of stuff that's being converted from this to that at a cellular level. If you have gonads removed there aren't meant to be any real risks if you have a safe maintainance dose of either oestrogen or testosterone. (I prefer oestrogen) But then if the effects from that get too much there can be a strong desire not to take it. Until I realized bow dangerous it was having no hormones in my system there'd be this subconscious thing. My subconscious would seemingly block out my ability to remember to take it. I think it's as though my subconscious knows I'm not really female and wants to stop me from becoming too feminised. I keep my oestrogen in fron of my computer screen nowadays along with jars of calcium, and vitamins D3 and K -so that I see all the jars together each day, and remember to take all the tablets. -When I've mentioned to transfriends in the past my problems remembering to take it they said 'oh well, why don't go have a weekly injection of estrogen instead?' eeek. That would be scary, and it would probably make me all weepy and emotional when the levels were highest in my system. I find that if my oestrogen levels are kept low but safe I'm psychologically as stable as I would be if I had none in my system but I'd prefer it if I only had physical effects from it on my skin and nothing else. You could probably get everything removed, -if you don't like having a reproductive system and all the other effects that'll have on you -but you'd have to still take something afterwards for the rest of your life.

There are apparently drugs out there that if you've had everything removed can somehow works with oestrogen in the bones for positive effects there (less bone density problems) but don't have any effect on breast tissue growth, -part of a class of drugs called selective oestrogen receptor modulators. Some of the people on WiG (There are quite a few neutrois people on there:- http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/ ) have mentioned them as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_est...eptor_modulator

I need to research them a bit better.

As for otherkin...I've often wondered if I am or not...but at the moment I've resigned myself to "human, maybe" because since I don't want to be human/want to be otherkin it would be hard to come up with an unbiased conclusion (as a funny side note when I was little I would run around telling people I was an alien :P)

hahah I was convinced I was an alien stuck in a human body! And I had an alien imaginary friend. Or maybe I was somehow channeling a real one? Who knows? -Good stuff for a book :)

YAY people that I have stuff in common with!! *dances badly* XD

I can't dance either :)

[AVENCakes]

I've kinda gone from little boy male to androgynous teenager male to very feminie goth male (That didn't want male bits -kinda neutrois but I didn't have the words then) to (can I really be?) Female to transwoman? to punky androgynous female to feeling as though I was a bit of a mixture, to polyandrogyne, to pangendered, to some sort of mixture between neutrois and pangendered, to genderqueer, to pretend trannyboy to genderf**k, to genderqueer to (can I be a) girl again? to oh my godd I'm running out of genders to try to be, to neutrois (again) :)

Wow, that's fun. ^^ I've went from reluctantly stuck as female -> female(?) who wants [body I still want] -> neutrois -> maybe male? -> I'll say I'm male to get what I want -> I am male -> male neutrois -> neutrois.

I think GirlInside's site mentions the 3 kinds of dysphoria (I'm sure it's an overgeneralizationa ndt here's plenty of meshing) and I realized that I'm physically dysphoric. I don't really care about society- the only reason I hate being called a girl is because it reminds me of what I have and don't want. It's the body that's a problem. So maybe I'm not "really" neutrois, but that's the body I want, so I think it fits. And I wouldn't mind getting a few X's in place of the F markers.

I remember once on the housing estate where I lived there were these horrible men who yelled 'have you got any f**king bollocks?' out really loud so loads of people could hear. That was really scary. They sounded like cockney gangsters. And occasionally people giggle or smirk -which isn't nice.

The worst I've gotten is people asking if Zack is short for anything, because apparently I'm very clearly female so they can't wrap their mindsa round the boy name. I never got that with my girl nickname. (by the way, stick to Dragon or whatever else you want to call me :) )

I'm sorry people gave you so much trouble I hate that people are so intolerant. Well, not just intolerant- but rude.

For half of last year I dressed really boyish, -which shocked a lot of people in the trans community before I came out. There was this moment when I looked in the mirror and I thought 'hey I actually look OK as a boy' even though I prefer it the more ambiguous I look. I find that the longer I stay looking very feminine or more boyish the greater the internal reaction I'll have and the more I'll suddenly internally react against it and freak out. So I've found the best thing to do is to look as androgynous as I can. That way I don't suffer from dysmorphic back and forth swings quite so much.

That's really awesome. ^^ I've had moments where I look in the mirror and don't mind what I see, but my biggest problem will always be what I feel. I think I could be in a tux or dress and as long as the body's right I'll be happy.

But then if the effects from that get too much there can be a strong desire not to take it.

This is what I'm worried about. I really don't want to have primarily one or the other, I want the two to even out so that I've got a reasonably androgynous fat distribution but don't have any of the effects of T or O. I guess that's impossible.

I keep my oestrogen in fron of my computer screen nowadays along with jars of calcium, and vitamins D3 and K -so that I see all the jars together each day, and remember to take all the tablets. -When I've mentioned to transfriends in the past my problems remembering to take it they said 'oh well, why don't go have a weekly injection of estrogen instead?'

You should get one of those tablet things with days of the week on them so you put what you're supposed to take each day in each one. When I was on anti-depressants I had to do that because I was never sure if I'd taken them or not.

There are apparently drugs out there that if you've had everything removed can somehow works with oestrogen in the bones for positive effects there (less bone density problems) but don't have any effect on breast tissue growth, -part of a class of drugs called selective oestrogen receptor modulators. Some of the people on WiG (There are quite a few neutrois people on there:- http://www.whatisgender.net/phpBB3/ ) have mentioned them as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_est...eptor_modulator

I need to research them a bit better.

I'd heard of that! My extherapist said he had no clue what I was talking abotu so I thought it was a myth. Thanks, I'll definitely have to look into that. I was hoping it was real. :D

As for otherkin...I've often wondered if I am or not...but at the moment I've resigned myself to "human, maybe" because since I don't want to be human/want to be otherkin it would be hard to come up with an unbiased conclusion (as a funny side note when I was little I would run around telling people I was an alien :P)

hahah I was convinced I was an alien stuck in a human body! And I had an alien imaginary friend. Or maybe I was somehow channeling a real one? Who knows? -Good stuff for a book :)

I am otherkin. But I don't think it's related to the gender thing- since internally I'm male bodied. ^^;

YAY people that I have stuff in common with!! *dances badly* XD

I can't dance either :)

I suck at DDR, but dancing is too fun to care if you do it well or not. :D

[squiggle]

Actually, just to correct you- it's similar to androgen insensitivity in some ways, but actually it's due to an SRY gene mutation. I am affected by androgens; I just don't produce that much due to a lack of gonads.

I was a long time ago -16 years. Now you come to mention I seem to recall her saying it was similar but not the same. She didn't really say much about it. She said had male chromosomes, mentioned that she had something called Swyer's syndrome, and mentioned that she was at high risk of bone density problems because it had taken so long to diagnose, and that she would have preferred to remain the way she was. Not much else.

I know what the SRY gene is and does. but I need to understand this better. (Googling)...

Right.

Now I understand the difference. -I can appreciate it would take longer to diagnose...

I guessing you (and my friend in Lancaster) are/were at higher risk of bone mass problems than somebody with complete AIS who'd gone undiagnosed. -I'm guessing people with CAIS's bones would have more available oestrogen to use as a result of their testosterone being converted by aromatase to oestradiol, whereas (I guess) your bones would have been be pretty much totally reliant on your adrenal gland for sex steroids.

--Just like my bones are when I forget to take my oestrogen... :)

When I discovered the risk I'd put myself at I panicked a bit. I'm taking oestrogen again, but the question is how low can I go with it and still be healthy?

Yup, it's a toughie. I'm looking into something called Evista, myself. It's supposed to act like estrogen without all the pesky pubertal development involved :D

If you can manage to go through life without having to go through puberty power to you! :)

Yup. I've heard of that stuff -Raloxifene -one of those selective oestrogen receptor modulators.

I was chatting to a friend of mine who used to be a nurse (who also worked at a private gender clinic in London) about it. I asked her whether it could be used as a replacement for oestrogen. She seemed to think it was something that one might be able to take in conjunction with HRT -something that would block some but not all of the effects of taking oestrogen :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raloxifene But she said that one would still need to have a maintenance dose of oestrogen in one's system for the osteoblasts and osteoclasts to work properly.

I've been reading about another drug in the same class too called tamoxifene too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen As well as blocking the effects of oestrogen on the breasts it's also used to treat gynaecomastia. Thus it might make me a bit more flat chested. It has some harsh side effects though. Apparently it can act as a carcinogen on endometrial tissue (and potentially prostate tissue too?). -Apparently it has an adverse effect on memory -which I wouldn't want. My memory for spoken information isn't that amazing -but for written it's fine.

I don't know whether that's something to do with my oestrogen levels. http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2...h/oestrogen.asp -That's something worth having a look at. Just as I've been a bit concerned about my bones I've also been a bit concerned about my memory and motor coordination are gonna be OK when I'm old. I really need to find a bunch of doctors I can talk through all this stuff with -and see an endocrinologist. (I've never seen one before...)

Yup. Bones. heheh. -My surname's Bone! -That's a good reminder for me not to neglect them :)

[squiggle]

I've kinda gone from little boy male to androgynous teenager male to very feminie goth male (That didn't want male bits -kinda neutrois but I didn't have the words then) to (can I really be?) Female to transwoman? to punky androgynous female to feeling as though I was a bit of a mixture, to polyandrogyne, to pangendered, to some sort of mixture between neutrois and pangendered, to genderqueer, to pretend trannyboy to genderf**k, to genderqueer to (can I be a) girl again? to oh my godd I'm running out of genders to try to be, to neutrois (again) :)

Wow, that's fun.

This thread

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php?sho...2468&st=330

shows what I've ended up looking like over the yeras

I remember once on the housing estate where I lived there were these horrible men who yelled 'have you got any f**king bollocks?' out really loud so loads of people could hear. That was really scary. They sounded like cockney gangsters. And occasionally people giggle or smirk -which isn't nice.

I'm sorry people gave you so much trouble I hate that people are so intolerant. Well, not just intolerant- but rude.

Yup. People in the UK can be rude. Especially the kinds of people who hang around in gangs. It was interesting whne I went to the US. I found there were generally less rude people hanging around on street corners. Possibly people are less rude in the US -because if they were as rude as some people in the UK are somebody would might shoot them!

This is what I'm worried about. I really don't want to have primarily one or the other, I want the two to even out so that I've got a reasonably androgynous fat distribution but don't have any of the effects of T or O. I guess that's impossible.

It's tricky. Luckily my frame is androgynous.

You should get one of those tablet things with days of the week on them so you put what you're supposed to take each day in each one. When I was on anti-depressants I had to do that because I was never sure if I'd taken them or not.

Good idea.

selective oestrogen receptor modulators.

I'd heard of that! My extherapist said he had no clue what I was talking abotu so I thought it was a myth. Thanks, I'll definitely have to look into that. I was hoping it was real. :D

Yup. They are real :)

YAY people that I have stuff in common with!! *dances badly* XD

:)

I can't dance either :)

I suck at DDR, but dancing is too fun to care if you do it well or not. :D

Oh Yesss! I like to dance myself into a total ecstatic trance! I get all these mad shivers up and down my spine from

dancing -like electricity. I must look like a maniac when I dance tho. :) -but I don't care!

[AVENCakes]

Yup. People in the UK can be rude. Especially the kinds of people who hang around in gangs. It was interesting whne I went to the US. I found there were generally less rude people hanging around on street corners. Possibly people are less rude in the US -because if they were as rude as some people in the UK are somebody would might shoot them!

Heh, especially in places that let you carry concealed weapons.

I don't know if that's it, it might be, or people just might be nicer. It depends on where you are- the south has southern hospitality going on, you just have to find an accepting place (I've gotten lucky). New England's more accepting, but less friendly. California's dead to me until they undo Prop 8 and I haven't been to the middle states very long so can't comment on anywhere else.

It's tricky. Luckily my frame is androgynous.

Mine isn't, the damned pelvis is too wide by now. -_- I also wish they could break and reset it the right shape, but I really doubt they'll be able to any time soon.

[Jordan]

I gone from my earliest gender memories starting at male(butch characters in cartoons)>androgyne (age 16)>neutrois (age 19)>now a very violent mindfucking battle whether I want to be neutrois or feminine female who only dates feminine men. If I were feminine I would not date masculine or "butch" men because I really hate when it comes to everything people say this and that should be the same BUT NOT TO GENDER. Men and women must be different for some reason they could never explain. So I want to insult that extreme stupidity in that if I do ever become feminine then my partner must be feminine.

[Kelly]

I am so jealous of you guys.

[AVENCakes]

I am so jealous of you guys.

Why?

[Kelly]

Why? Erm, dunno, perhaps because I would be less of a genderf*k that I am now. And just cuz I am. ;)

The original post is quite intersting. And fits right into AVEN, actually. There seems to be a number of like-minded peeps here.

*hopes that I wasn't a thread-killer*

Anyway, about HRT, that is a serious issue, since our bones require it.

I do not have any gonads, either, and opt for estrogen. It does not change my body-shape, it seems if anything to reduce body hair (which is good) and my boobs are size 36A, and not likely to change after all this time. Further, it seems to reduce the aging process. T would likely cause skin changes that would make peeps look older.

Plus, Squiggle is awesome.

[7B9090]

Hey Squiggle! (hugs) I love your avatar by the way!! I need to get myself an avatar sometime. I saw on LJ that I just love... so I may ninja that one.

I'm reading through the thread and I'm amazed that other people feel this alienation... unhuman... nonhuman... etc because I have told doctors this before. They always ask me, when was the first time you recall you could have identified as 'neutrois'? Well... it was back when... when I didn't feel human. Maybe it's my expression of [other-]genderedness, but really, back then I seriously thought non-human. It still sticks strongly, even more so since I discovered I was asexual. In a way, it's empowering.

[mad_scientist]

I identify as nothing, mentally. That is, I identify as female because my body's female and it's less bother. Being female doesn't bother me, and nor would being male or intersex (except for the obvious health and social problems associated with intersexiaulity in a gender-centric society), or no sexual characteristics at all. I don't know if this counts as neutrois or not.

[chica52]

this will probably sound awful but personally i feel as though i am "above" gender and sex, like gender is something which is not real, society has always treated me as female (very much so as i am very petite and girly-looking, even though I don't dress that way), so over time I learn to behave feminine, if I had been treated as a male i would easily have learned to behave as male. i am comfortable enough being "female" but i feel it is nurture, rather than nature. by nature, i don't feel especially male or female.......perhaps being asexual, i would say, has a lot to do with it.....im confusing myself now haha, and probably everybody else too

[GirlInside]

I'm envious of you all too. I think it would be better to be somewhere in between male and female. At least then I could be somewhat semi-functional in the male role, thus making life easier. As it is, I'm so strongly female it could be considered a disability (that might still be true if I were a genetic woman :) ).

[AVENCakes]

I'm envious of you all too. I think it would be better to be somewhere in between male and female. At least then I could be somewhat semi-functional in the male role, thus making life easier. As it is, I'm so strongly female it could be considered a disability (that might still be true if I were a genetic woman :) ).

I'm not functional in the female role. I'm not functional in the male role. You could transition to female and be legally and socially recognized as such. I plan to transition- but don't get either of those luxuries. I could try to fight it to get a neutral gender marker, plan to at some point, but do you really think that means strangers'll look at me and go "Hey, they're a neutrois". Hardly.

My partner's the same. Hates being called a boy, thought they'd be happier with being called a girl. Now they can't not pass as female (I try not to be amused by that) through no fault of their own and hate being called a girl just as much.

If you were androgyne or bigender it might be easier, but there's no guarantee you wouldn't be just as uncomfortable.