Another atheist/theist poll...

[Guest Heligan]

Ockams razor.

Well, yes, but we're not multiplying entities unnecessarily, as Occam supposedly said (although someone proposed that before him, I think; can't remember). We're only talking about *one* possible identity, something we call God for the purposes of this thread.

The definition 'Dont multiply entities beyond necessity' is often quoted, and it gives a slightly distorted view of what was intended by the use of the term entities. Ockhams razor is really a principle of simplicity, where by if something can be explained simply then introducing further complexity is not necessary. Its also known as 'the principle of parsimony'

This point is similar to the idea that we no longer need a 'God of the gaps' because we have better explainations.

Basically if God exists we need to explain how, and this adds far more complexity to issues we are trying to explain that other explainations.

[Guest Heligan]

Ockams razor.

Well, yes, but we're not multiplying entities unnecessarily, as Occam supposedly said (although someone proposed that before him, I think; can't remember). We're only talking about *one* possible identity, something we call God for the purposes of this thread.

I think you may have missed the point.

A deity is superfluous to requirements and not suggested by the evidence.

Must have posted at the same time. I think you may have explained it better.

[cait]

Are there any atheists who were not raised with the belief of God/a god around them? I have always wondered this.

I was personally raised without the belief of any kind of god, so I never had any reason to be atheist, there was no god to turn against for me. I am not atheist, and have never understood the concept of it.

I believe in the existence of the UNIVERSE. Do I need to break it down any further than that? I am also highly intrapersonal so I tend to turn inward for questions, rather than thinking outward for some kind of exterior entity who might have answers. If there were what people term as a "god" (god, I hate that word) then the closest thing I could think of would be some aspect of the inner self.

When I was a child I struggled with the concept of an old man sitting on water particles throwing thunder bolts at us. Children take things literally, it's silly that religions make children "believe" in god.

[Eddie7]

Are there any atheists who were not raised with the belief of God/a god around them? I have always wondered this.

Right here. My mother is an atheist and while, when pushed, my dad will claim to believe in "something", he's certainly not religious by any means. I've never had any kind of religious upbringing whatsoever, and I was allowed tdo make my own choices. I don't really see that one needs a religious upbringing to be an atheist as it's not a form of rebellion, it's purely logic.

[KayleeSaeihr]

Are there any atheists who were not raised with the belief of God/a god around them? I have always wondered this.

Right here. My mother is an atheist and while, when pushed, my dad will claim to believe in "something", he's certainly not religious by any means. I've never had any kind of religious upbringing whatsoever, and I was allowed tdo make my own choices. I don't really see that one needs a religious upbringing to be an atheist as it's not a form of rebellion, it's purely logic.

I'm much the same, and though I did go to a Catholic school religion wasn't crammed down our throats...More like pushed.

[Shadow girl]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

[Næt.]

Some way so bizarre and surreal we can't think it up.

But - and here's the twist - when we find out we'll kick ourselves.

[Sally]

Some way so bizarre and surreal we can't think it up.

But - and here's the twist - when we find out we'll kick ourselves.

Or something will kick us; we'll know what at that time.

[Sarifus]

It largely depends on one's definition of God. The Abrahamic God is one I certainly don't believe in...there are many, many arguments that collectively make a very strong case against 'Him' - One being that one cannot be all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time =/. However, if you simply mean god as in, creator of the universe, or some collective power greater than mankind, or some lifeforce that we're all connected by...that's different. I couldn't say anything for sure on that one - I don't presume to have knowledge of all the universe.

[SomeoneElse]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

See: M-Theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

[KayleeSaeihr]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

See: M-Theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

:: brain melts ::

[SomeoneElse]

lol

It is pretty complicated, that is why we have religion. :lol:

[square peg]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

By that same logic, God must have been created by his own God, or how did he get here?

[Næt.]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

By that same logic, God must have been created by his own God, or how did he get here?

God is created out of the universe. At the end of the universe, God is made out of it, goes back in time and dissociates his self to become the universe. Which then un-dissociates to become God, and so on and so forth.

[Sally]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

By that same logic, God must have been created by his own God, or how did he get here?

God is created out of the universe. At the end of the universe, God is made out of it, goes back in time and dissociates his self to become the universe. Which then un-dissociates to become God, and so on and so forth.

Is that the OODA Loop religion?

[Næt.]

No it's an adminstrative cock-up.

[mad_scientist]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

*sigh*

[mad_scientist]

Are there any atheists who were not raised with the belief of God/a god around them? I have always wondered this.

I was personally raised without the belief of any kind of god, so I never had any reason to be atheist, there was no god to turn against for me. I am not atheist, and have never understood the concept of it.

Um... being an atheist has nothing at all to do with "turing against" gods. I don't believe in leprochauns, but I never "turned against" them. I just don't think they exist.

[Sally]

Of course there has to be a God I mean if not then how did we get here?

*sigh*

Some of us by train; some by bus; some by plane; I walked.

[cait]

Are there any atheists who were not raised with the belief of God/a god around them? I have always wondered this.

Right here. My mother is an atheist and while, when pushed, my dad will claim to believe in "something", he's certainly not religious by any means. I've never had any kind of religious upbringing whatsoever, and I was allowed tdo make my own choices. I don't really see that one needs a religious upbringing to be an atheist as it's not a form of rebellion, it's purely logic.

It's just what I don't understand about this, well about atheism, is, do you just say "nope, nothing exists but people and the things on their planet, and there is actually nothing more to think about, just get born (mysteriously and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale), work our meaningless lives and die (and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale)"? Because I truly just don't get it. And all the atheists I have ever met, which is like the majority of my friends are highly cynical. Hell, my parents are Buddhist, but I'd hazard a guess they are atheists as well (very cynical people). I just don't know. I think some people think it's the absence of belief in god, but I'm pretty sure atheism is anti-god.

I wonder, do atheists just have no other beliefs or ideas or theories about life? Do they just not think about it? That's just my (highly cynical) view on atheism.

I don't believe in "God" (not overtly) but I'm not atheist.

[Guest Heligan]

Are there any atheists who were not raised with the belief of God/a god around them? I have always wondered this.

Right here. My mother is an atheist and while, when pushed, my dad will claim to believe in "something", he's certainly not religious by any means. I've never had any kind of religious upbringing whatsoever, and I was allowed tdo make my own choices. I don't really see that one needs a religious upbringing to be an atheist as it's not a form of rebellion, it's purely logic.

It's just what I don't understand about this, well about atheism, is, do you just say "nope, nothing exists but people and the things on their planet, and there is actually nothing more to think about, just get born (mysteriously and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale), work our meaningless lives and die (and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale)"? Because I truly just don't get it. And all the atheists I have ever met, which is like the majority of my friends are highly cynical. Hell, my parents are Buddhist, but I'd hazard a guess they are atheists as well (very cynical people). I just don't know. I think some people think it's the absence of belief in god, but I'm pretty sure atheism is anti-god.

I wonder, do atheists just have no other beliefs or ideas or theories about life? Do they just not think about it? That's just my (highly cynical) view on atheism.

I don't believe in "God" (not overtly) but I'm not atheist.

I think you may have a misconception about what an atheist is. An atheist is anyone who has no theist beliefs. You seem to be getting that confused with declaring yourself as an atheist, you can have no religious beliefs and not declare yourselfto be an atheist or identify with that title- but it is what you are (by definition).

Atheisism is not the same thing as nihlism, aside from the no theist beliefs atheists are a very varied bunch. I myself am vegetarian and I try to be as 'green' as possible, Im passionate about philosophy especially philosophy of the mind- Cynical is not always a bad thing to be, its good to challenge your preconceieved ideas and not see anything as written in stone (especially in philosophy).

Many atheists are also existentialists, whether they identify as such or not; because they see no inherent meaning to life and endeaveour to make their own meaning. Just becausewe believe this is all there is doesnt mean we think it is meaningless, we may even feel that it has more meaning simply because this is all there is.

Being an atheist is almost the opposite of not thinking, for most of us.

[Eddie7]

It's just what I don't understand about this, well about atheism, is, do you just say "nope, nothing exists but people and the things on their planet, and there is actually nothing more to think about, just get born (mysteriously and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale), work our meaningless lives and die (and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale)"?

Why are those two things mutually exclusive? What is unfathomable about the belief that these things (life) just happen. It certainly doesn't preclude any debate about a "larger scale". Seeing as I have no reason to believe one exists though, I don't see why it would trouble me that much.

Because I truly just don't get it. And all the atheists I have ever met, which is like the majority of my friends are highly cynical. Hell, my parents are Buddhist, but I'd hazard a guess they are atheists as well (very cynical people). I just don't know. I think some people think it's the absence of belief in god, but I'm pretty sure atheism is anti-god.

Being a realist will often equate to cynicism given the world that currently exists. I fail to see how atheism can be anti-god too. How can I be opposed to something that doesn't exist? I'm no more anti-god than I am anti-santa.

I wonder, do atheists just have no other beliefs or ideas or theories about life? Do they just not think about it? That's just my (highly cynical) view on atheism.

I can think about other theories on life without subscribing to them. I spend a fair amount of time reading about religious beliefs, and have, at times, tried to grasp exactly what makes religious people tick. Sadly, it's still lost on me. I don't actually see what is so wrong in accepting that life is what is set out in front of us though. Why must there be something more? The only people I can see that being necessarily for are people who can't cope with the reality of the world.

[square peg]

It's just what I don't understand about this, well about atheism, is, do you just say "nope, nothing exists but people and the things on their planet, and there is actually nothing more to think about, just get born (mysteriously and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale), work our meaningless lives and die (and we don't have to think about how that happens on a larger scale)"? Because I truly just don't get it. And all the atheists I have ever met, which is like the majority of my friends are highly cynical. Hell, my parents are Buddhist, but I'd hazard a guess they are atheists as well (very cynical people). I just don't know. I think some people think it's the absence of belief in god, but I'm pretty sure atheism is anti-god.

I wonder, do atheists just have no other beliefs or ideas or theories about life? Do they just not think about it? That's just my (highly cynical) view on atheism.

I don't believe in "God" (not overtly) but I'm not atheist.

Most atheists, who may include Buddhists, New Agers, ET worshippers, spiritualists and mediums (so not people who don't think about the cosmos and 'ultimate purpose' at all) as well as those who've simply never given the issue much thought, don't seem to call themselves that. The fact that only a few subsets of atheists call themselves atheists probably leads to generalisations that apply only to a minority. I am an atheist but that defines only a tiny aspect of my identity, it doesn't say anything about my personality, interests or other views. Most people I know whose beliefs or lack of I can be fairly sure of are atheists, but at least half haven't thought much about gods' existence at all and some probably wouldn't even be sure what the word atheist means, if asked. They're all very different people, just as people who don't believe in anything else you can think of are all very different people.

[Sally]

I don't actually see what is so wrong in accepting that life is what is set out in front of us though. Why must there be something more? The only people I can see that being necessarily for are people who can't cope with the reality of the world.

With some of us, it isn't that there *must* be something more, it's simply that we *think or believe* there is something more. That doesn't mean in any sense that we can't cope with the reality of the world. Every human being every day copes with the reality of the world, in some sense, at least. There's no reason you can't look at the world with clear eyes and still have a belief. If you (meaning *you*) have a different belief, or no particular belief, that's fine with me; that doesn't alter my belief, nor does it cloud my view of the world, nor does it cause me to want to make you believe what I do. We can coexist in reality.

[cait]

Okay, I'm just really confused about the origins of the term atheist. Where is it coming from. And if you are describing an atheist as being something I have always known to be called an agnostic, well, what is an agnostic? I wonder if the two are interrelated? I always thought they were vastly different. I realize these are just words that have for some reason always had a specific purpose in my mind, but they actually mean different things to a lot of people.

Still, I have always had a beef with the term atheist, so I would never be one. It's because I was overexposed to self-proclaimed atheists who just sit around and bash Christians because they had a bad experience with Christianity. And I think that's just silly. I guess that's where the root of my misconception comes from, and I should toss it aside.

I guess looking at discussions about theism and atheism just kind of makes me realize why I never throw my own personal theories, ideas and (ever changing) beliefs around, because it's just too full of this kind of stuff I don't like having to sift through, and all these categories, which I can't stand being tangled in.

I think we are each going to have an individual world view, whatever you want to call it, or if you want to bend it to some pre-established category that's fine. But I just have a hard time with it all.

[DMG]

Yes, Yes. Atheist-turned-theist-turn-Christian here.

AVEN never fails to remind me of my hardline atheist days, so many on here are just like that lol. I've also notice a trend of depression and cycism on AVEN. Seems to be a link.

[Eddie7]

With some of us, it isn't that there *must* be something more, it's simply that we *think or believe* there is something more. That doesn't mean in any sense that we can't cope with the reality of the world. Every human being every day copes with the reality of the world, in some sense, at least. There's no reason you can't look at the world with clear eyes and still have a belief.

That's rather questionable to me. If a person believes in imaginary characters and magic, then I find it difficult that their reality of the world can be as informed as somebody who doesn't. I'm not objecting to anyone believing what they like, as that is indeed up to them, but I struggle with the idea that someone can believe god is in control of all can take in the world as it really is.

If you (meaning *you*) have a different belief, or no particular belief, that's fine with me; that doesn't alter my belief, nor does it cloud my view of the world, nor does it cause me to want to make you believe what I do. We can coexist in reality.

Of course. Anyone whose belief is shaken by being challenged in debate (both religious and non-religious) isn't all that faithful in their beliefs in the first place. I certainly have no desire to make everyone an atheist.

Okay, I'm just really confused about the origins of the term atheist. Where is it coming from. And if you are describing an atheist as being something I have always known to be called an agnostic, well, what is an agnostic? I wonder if the two are interrelated? I always thought they were vastly different. I realize these are just words that have for some reason always had a specific purpose in my mind, but they actually mean different things to a lot of people.

They are two very different things to me. An atheist doesn't believe a god exists, an agnostic doesn't know. Obviously there will be at least some crossover between the two, mostly made up of people who don't believe a god exists but are still open to the idea.

Still, I have always had a beef with the term atheist, so I would never be one. It's because I was overexposed to self-proclaimed atheists who just sit around and bash Christians because they had a bad experience with Christianity. And I think that's just silly. I guess that's where the root of my misconception comes from, and I should toss it aside.

I have no "bad experience" with Christianity. In fact, I have no experience at all with Christianity. Nor do I "just sit around and bash Christians". On the most part, I have far better things to do than bash anyone. If I do however, I will gladly extend to the same to Muslims, Jews, Hindus and anyone else. Atheism is not about believing the Christian god doesn't exist, it's not believing that any god exists.

AVEN never fails to remind me of my hardline atheist days, so many on here are just like that lol. I've also notice a trend of depression and cycism on AVEN. Seems to be a link.

I'm not depressed at all. Cynical, yes, but that doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Seriously, are we really at a point in the discussion where we think all atheists are depressed and miserable and all religious people are happy and content?

[DMG]

I'm not depressed at all. Cynical, yes, but that doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Seriously, are we really at a point in the discussion where we think all atheists are depressed and miserable and all religious people are happy and content?

I never claimed you were "depressed" my friend, I simply stated an obvious fact that a lot of people on AVEN do indeed suffer from depression and are also atheists (though reading their comments, a lot are actually agnostics, but I'd never say anyone is wrong in their self-identification). I don't think you yourself, who appears to be an intelligent person, believes I ever intended to put across that all atheists are depressed. I myself am a former atheist, I used to be "militant atheist", a term you yourself have used in describing your religious views - though I was never actually militant, and deplore violence on all levels - as I suspect you do also.

A lot of my friends are atheists, I have excellent conversations with them about spirituality, I still discuss all the great atheist writers who inspired me, because they continue to be important in my life, but I've developed a different viewpoint since my atheist days. I'm a Christian now. I have no qualms with saying I have faith in God and the teachings of the church. The majority of the human race do. But I will never lump a certain group into one, and I'll never judge anyone because of their views. There is good and bad in all sections of community, including atheism - I doubt many atheists scramble to hold Stalin or Pol Pot as beakons of atheist hope. Even Judas was one of Jesus' disciples. But there's good in all sections also, and I will always focus on that.

[Eddie7]

I never claimed you were "depressed" my friend, I simply stated an obvious fact that a lot of people on AVEN do indeed suffer from depression and are also atheists (though reading their comments, a lot are actually agnostics, but I'd never say anyone is wrong in their self-identification). I don't think you yourself, who appears to be an intelligent person, believes I ever intended to put across that all atheists are depressed. I myself am a former atheist, I used to be "militant atheist", a term you yourself have used in describing your religious views - though I was never actually militant, and deplore violence on all levels - as I suspect you do also.

Okay, the use of "all" was a little unfair. I think I just read your post in the same way that I often seem to read comments from religious people; that their lives are perfectly happy and the only way to attain that is through their belief. I accept that there does appear to be a lot of depression here, but, and without offending anyone else, I'm inclined to put that down to this being an internet forum. However, seeing as that path would likely to lead to assumptions that I'm accusing people of making up their problems, I probably shouldn't pursue it. The term "militant atheist" is indeed a tricky one. Like you say, I deplore violence too, and certainly over something like religion. Militant atheist is more a turn of phrase than anything else. Perhaps an unfortunate one, but most do seem to realise what it means.

A lot of my friends are atheists, I have excellent conversations with them about spirituality, I still discuss all the great atheist writers who inspired me, because they continue to be important in my life, but I've developed a different viewpoint since my atheist days. I'm a Christian now. I have no qualms with saying I have faith in God and the teachings of the church. The majority of the human race do. But I will never lump a certain group into one, and I'll never judge anyone because of their views. There is good and bad in all sections of community, including atheism - I doubt many atheists scramble to hold Stalin or Pol Pot as beakons of atheist hope. Even Judas was one of Jesus' disciples. But there's good in all sections also, and I will always focus on that.

Of course. I certainly have "issues" with religion as a whole, and to a certain extent the people who believe too, but that certainly doesn't preclude them from being decent, honourable people on the most part. One of my closest friend is a Christian (uhoh, I'm sounding like the racist with a "black friend" now), and while we have long, and sometimes heated, debates about religion and spirituality, they remain someone that I would trust with my life.

Atheism does indeed have it's bad apples like any other group, although I'm almost wary about condemning bad people who happen to be atheists. At the same time, I'm wary to condemn bad people who claim to be religious yet show absolutely no signs of that faith. If I was to commit a serious crime, would the fact I'm an atheist be relevant? Probably not, and I find it difficult how that in itself should be relevant. The same extends to the religious too on the most part. Sadly, it's very difficult to separate the actions of someone from their religious (or lack of religious) beliefs.

[ily]

Correlation does not equal causation.

(Thought someone had to say it before this atheism/depression idea goes further...)