Project team

[Coleslaw]

Cole:

your construing what i am saying. I nowhere stated that i want people who regularly post in the pt. its more that It would be nice to know who is actually active. even if its just every now and then say "hey i am still working on this" or at least show up for votes... cuz voting with 2 poeple doesn't show much.

and i never said that the admod team and pt are the same. YES they are seperate and YES they should remain seperate. What i am saying though is that they are two powers that do need to work together at times and for that there needs to be some trust.

Cash:

I'm sorry, I did construe. I read your original post as a cry for getting the PT running again with more people so that it was a more fair system. I assumed you were unhappy with how little discussion was being generated over projects in general, but I see what you mean now. I apologize.

I also know that you never said the PT and the Admod team were the same. Again, though, I believe I misread you, as I thought you were motioning to combine the two. Again, I apologize.

Goonie:

Yes, I know they are both currently separate, and that only Keith has made posts in the PT. I've read all I can on that. I was just trying to say I see the validity in keeping them separate. Of course there should be trust between the two teams and that there should be communication, but I do think that they should remain separate. I was just trying to voice my own opinion here, as Cashew opened this topic up to get some discussion. I apologize if I'm digging into something I shouldn't be.

Greybird:

I like your idea. It really makes a lot of sense. The only issue I have with it is organization. I will agree with you in saying that anyone who wants to do anything should be able to, but at the same time, there needs to be a system so that everyone on AVEN can see what is being taken care of and what needs help. Posting all projects either in the (open) PT forum or on the Wiki would work, so long as people did post...

There also needs to be a level of accountability. Some projects, however well-intentioned, could be seen as undesirable at the current time. Is there a way that all members could run their ideas past a team of people, or should this just be overlooked until an actual problem arises?

Just throwing some ideas out... Um, and if this is not really a site-wide debate and can be handled better by people on the PT and on the Admod team, I apologize to all and I'll back out quietly...

[The Evil Cashew]

Its ok Cole. No hard feelings

~cashew

[Sam B.I.]

Ilike GRBD's ideasvery much. And Cole's critism of it is insightful and should be taken into account.

[Hallucigenia]

Its my impression that, back in the ooooolden days, people suggested projects all willy-nilly, and the ones that got approved by DJ were the ones that became "official". (DISCLAIMER: I could be wildly wrong about this; I wasn't around for most of the ooooolden days and I mostly have this impression from doing very preliminary research into the old pamphlets.)

DJ's great, but he's not around much anymore. I'm thinking out loud, but perhaps the mod(s) of the new PT forum (would it be merged with VEO? If not, what is the difference between the two forums once the PT goes away?) could take on most of this officialness-making responsibility, using DJ as a recourse when they are not sure.

(I would, of course, only be okay with this if they are elected to that position by the people.)

[Sam B.I.]

So if you have an idea that you want to act on (or put up for other's to act on) you...

1 post a proposal in the Project Forum (my feeling is that PT and VEO should merge)

2 This gets approved by an elected bunch of moderators (How many would be enough for a project to be OK'ed?).

3 You post updates on a regular basis.

The beauty of this is that you can post a thread with a title such as this one:

"Help needed with graphics for an AVEN poster"

because there are people with all sorts of skills on AVEN.

[KAGU143]

Well, I don't know if my idea will ultimately prove to be the very best one that we can come up with, especially if we all work together and try to pick the best aspects of everybody's ideas.

I should clarify what I was thinking when I said that the current PT members could become mods by default, though.

What I want to accomplish is to keep the PT group as a separate entity as much as possible, but to allow the rest of the membership to feel free and uninhibited about contributing if they should happen to think of an idea.

I think (but I'm not 100% sure) that the Project Team members are already mods, sort of. I believe this is the way that the permissions were set up so that the PT members can post in the PT forum and other members can't. I could be wrong, so don't hold me to that. (I don't totally understand all of that adminny stuff. )

If all of the PT members are made mods of what will probably be a fairly quiet forum, then it should be a no-brainer to keep up with it.

The advantage would be that mods can post in a locked thread as long as it is in their own forum. That would provide the option of keeping some threads private to the PT members if need be, while still allowing them to be visible to everybody else. Other unlocked threads would be open for any member to post in.

I think it is commendable to want to be elected again in order to be made an oficial PT/mod. (Even if I don't think it would be totally necessary.) I can't imagine that anybody would vote against the idea, but it could serve as a vote of confidence and perhaps help encourage the remaining PT members and remind them that their efforts really ARE appreciated. Of course, it would also be a perfect time to enlis, er *ahem* ELECT some additional PT members if there are interested candidates.

*hugs the PT folks*

I hope this makes sense.

-GB

[Coleslaw]

Sam, I think your organization method sounds perfect. I just don't believe that the PT forum should merge with VEO. I think it should be renamed to something like "Current Projects" or "AVEN Projects", because I think that, while the material that will go into projects can overlap with what goes into VEO, I think they're generally separated. The PT forum is more aimed at AVEN site stuff than general publicity and visibility.

GBRD, your logic seems really sound, and I think you've come up with a good plan. I don't think you need to open up elections, though... If Trip, Hallu, SpirallySnowy, Neurovore, Cacille, Hu, and then perhaps Sam and Ajay (As they've done a good deal of PT work, according to Trip) would be willing to act as moderators, I think that's a good deal of people and that the PT wouldn't need more.

As everyone keeps pointing out, it's probably going to be a relatively quiet forum anyway.

[Brodertun]

Ajay has done nearly as much work on all of my pt projects as I have, and he's been a significant factor in ensuring they didn't just go by the wayside. He also helped set up the software for the pt meeting we had. Hallu will have to speak for Sam

*As for being on the team, I have no intention to stop my current level of involvement. However if things stand as is, I do not want the official designation of being on the team because of all the "needless headaches" brought about of being so. But since we've been working on completely changing things, I personally don't feel its necessary to officially resign at the moment. After all the "team" I'm resigning from might not exist in a couple weeks.

Also if KBRD143 is telling the truth about being a member of the PT than all of AVEN was lied to about who is on the team, and the original pt elections. And I have no desire to be named as part of something so blatantly dishonest.

[Sam B.I.]

The PT forum is more aimed at AVEN site stuff than general publicity and visibility.

I was under the impression that the PT dealt with AVEN site stuff, general publicity and visibility (eg pamphlets). Don't quote me on this. I am merely under an impression and they evaporate easily.

[Hallucigenia]

Hallu will have to speak for Sam

I don't know the full extent of what Sam has done. But I can say that she's been heavily involved in the production of AVENues, becoming a prolific feature writer and offering helpful advice.

AVENues is a bit odd because the majority of people working on it are not, in fact, in the PT. As the editor-in-chief, I collect content from a variety of people (most of whom are not in the PT), format it, and send it to a team of four beta-readers (three of whom are not in the PT). Then I (with a little bit of magical permissions help from DJ) put the finished product up on the site.

And yes, Cole and Sam, the PT works on things other than AVEN site stuff. In theory, the mods control what happens in the forums themselves, and the PT controls everything else about AVEN - including site stuff (e.g. the static content) and publicity stuff (e.g. pamphlets).

In practice, there are a lot of things that are none of the above, such as when the professional media wants to talk to AVENites - they contact DJ directly, and he then makes an Announcements thread where anyone who wants to can volunteer to help. There was talk about getting PT members to assume this and other DJ-only responsibilities, but it never amounted to much.

[AVENguy]

I want to agree with everyone else about GBRD413's proposal. I made the PT a separate distinct entity for a few reasons, none of which have worked out in the way that I intended. The idea was to create a group of people who bore official responsibility for AVEN's off-forum projects the way that the admod team is responsible for the forum and who could have official say over things like the language on the front page.

I'm completely fine with giving that responsibility to the admods, having people focus on their specific projects and asking the admods for permission as necessary. We should start thinking about how to delegate ownership for different components of the community (e.g. work on the front page site, technical backend work) in a way that will be accessible to anyone who wants to help out but will also be accountable to people in the community. It sounds like the admod team will retain the power to guide "official" AVEN things that people are doing (e.g. editing content on the frontpage.

Sounds good to me.

[ghosts]

I also think GBird's idea is pretty cool. I think that V&E and the PT forum could be separate because they can involve different things, but I like the idea of opening up the PT forum to everyone. I think that currently, things can be ambiguous, in that people like Keith are very much involved in PT projects, but aren't able to post in that particular forum. I can understand his wanting to communicate in that particular forum since he is working on a project, even though I do understand that the PT is supposed to be closed to members who weren't elected.

As for elections, it might be a good idea to hold them since the PT was originally thinking of doing that anyway. If the PT members become mods, we could do this a few different ways I suppose... They could either become admods like the admod team and have access to the admod forum, or they'd just be mods for that particular forum... In that case, they wouldn't really have the added responsibilities that admods have, but they'd be able to keep their forum neat in case an off-topic thread gets started in there. Hope that makes sense...

Also if KBRD143 is telling the truth about being a member of the PT than all of AVEN was lied to about who is on the team, and the original pt elections. And I have no desire to be named as part of something so blatantly dishonest.

I don't think that's completely fair. After all, when the PT was formed we were all told that there would be regular elections after so many months. However, those never happened, and soon additional members were added onto the PT forum without elections being held. And I believe, at times, we were told that Ajay & Sam were on the PT, but my memory's a little hazy. Now, I really don't have that big of an issue with this or with these additional members, but I'm just trying to make a point.

I'm completely fine with giving that responsibility to the admods, having people focus on their specific projects and asking the admods for permission as necessary. We should start thinking about how to delegate ownership for different components of the community (e.g. work on the front page site, technical backend work) in a way that will be accessible to anyone who wants to help out but will also be accountable to people in the community. It sounds like the admod team will retain the power to guide "official" AVEN things that people are doing (e.g. editing content on the frontpage.

I'm under the impression that this isn't completely what GBird meant, but I could be wrong... DJ, it seems to me that you're saying the Admods would take on the responsibilities that the PT has, in that they'd give permission for certain things, & maybe delegate projects/permissions. I think that's also a possibility, and I'd be willing to take on the extra responsibility. But, I think these are sort of 2 different ideas- correct me if I'm wrong.

What do people think?

If we want to spread out positions on AVEN like technical stuff, work on the front page, etc., we could have listings in the PT forum where people could post that they're interested. Where to go from there, I'm not sure- hold elections? Or open it to people who are willing, but who meet certain requirements? Either way, community members should keep an eye on what's going on in these different areas to make sure that things are getting done...

[roddy9uk]

I take it you have a lack of trust in your Prime Minister then. After all he/she takes a similar vow when sworn into office. Or do you instead find him promising to uphold the honor bestowed upon herself to be stupid?

Ummm..minor point..actually Prime Ministers do NOT take a vow per se..they are not sworn into office..(total red herring here but nor do British Forces officers swear an oath of allegiance).

Just as a purely personal opinion..I find such "vows"..being "sworn into" office etc etc a bit of a waste of time..even if they do make good theatre. Who in that position is actually going to say "No..I won't promise"? You either trust them or you do not. If you trust themyou don't need a promise and if you don't trust them any promise is worthless (to you).

Purely personal random thoughts by the way..any resemblance with any person live or dead is wholly unintentional...

roddy

p.s. If the current PM told us it was raining we would get the deck-chairs and sun-block out...

[AVENguy]

One of the lessons I'm taking from the state of the PT is that it might be a good idea to take out some of the formal democratic processes and let people who are interested in helping out help out. The elected Admod team can serve as a formal check on what these ad hoc volunteer teams are doing, and the community in general (and me, with my community clout) can serve as an informal check.

It's not that I'm against democracy, I just think that at our current size it's clunky to set up too many bureaucratic procedures. We're somewhere in between a formal organization and a group of friends working on a project together. I think if we embrace more of the latter we'll have a little more fun.

[The Evil Cashew]

less bureaucray is fine by me

i do think that if have some pt members as mods,... i do liek the idea of having them mod only the pt forum . then they can do their projects like they were and keep the forum nice and tidy. then they wont have to be bogged down with admod stuff as well. they can just keep doing what they are doing (cuz they is doing some awesome stuff)

~Cashew

[M51]

Well, for what it is worth, I would be much more inclined to participate if I did not have to make a major commitment. I really can't commit to anything long term as I don't know where I will be from week to week.

I am all for opening up the project team to members in general, as Greybird suggested, along the lines of Sam's outline, and all that.

[spinneret]

I like Greybird's idea of making PT members into mods of an open PT forum, and I think holding elections as planned like Hallu says is a good idea*. I see it as a skill exchange, where people ask for and offer skills and ideas and collaborate on projects or get together to work on projects off-AVEN.

*incidentally, can one be a pt member if one has an active warning?

[Hallucigenia]

*incidentally, can one be a pt member if one has an active warning?

I'm not sure whether there was ever an official policy about that, but if we go through with opening up the PT forum and making the former PT members mods, they would presumably be subject to the same conduct-related rules as the rest of the admod team.

In any case, the only PT member I'm aware of who has an active warning is not actually a PT member anymore, due to resigning, so it's not a huge issue right now.

[Sam B.I.]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread because I want to see what happens.

Has any decisions been made? A lot of good ideas were put on the table but have anything been done about it?

[KAGU143]

I think the plan is to get the mod elections out of the way first, and then to focus on the PT.

The mod elections are currently in the "preliminary preliminary" phase while we decide how best to run the election. The candidates have been nominated and, as soon as the election format is decided, it will take place.

I know all of these steps seem like overkill, but there have been accusations that some of our past elections weren't run fairly, and we want to try to prevent this as much as possible.

I am assuming that the same format will then be used to elect more PT members if that is what people want to do.

I'm not sure exactly what, if anything, has been decided, so I am guessing that there will be a poll concerning the PT in the near future.

-GB

[Goonie]

*grumbles about the farmers* always puttin up poles on my grazing ground .. those no good....

[Hallucigenia]

There's been a lot of different suggestions about what to do in this thread - I'd like it if people could vote between them here, the same way they've been voting between different mod election strategies. Not all of the suggestions involve electing a new PT at all, so I don't think we should just assume that whatever works for the mods works for us.

But yeah, get mod elections out of the way first.

[Hallucigenia]

Right! Admod elections are TEH DONE. That means it's time to get the PT-cleanup show on the road.

As far as I can tell, we've come up with four basic options:

1. Keep the Project Team basically as it is, but with a new election to bring in new blood

2. Open up the Project Team forum to everyone, making it a normal forum, modded by normal mods

3. Open up the Project Team forum to everyone, and make the existing PT members into moderators of that forum, keeping them nominally separate from the rest of the admods

4. Open up the Project Team forum to everyone and hold an election for one or more Project Team moderators who will oversee the whole thing

Are there other options I have missed? If not, looks like it's time to make a poll.

There are some other issues, especially those of how the modding is to be done in options 2 through 4. My own mental picture is that whoever was in charge of the PT forum would be keeping and updating a list somewhere - maybe in a sticky, maybe in the Wiki - of all the major projects and responsibilities going on and who-all was responsible for them. Other than maintaining the list, deciding whose projects get "official" AVEN project status, and figuring out what to do about inactive people who are responsible for something, the PT mods would be pretty hands-off (unless they had projects on the list that they themselves were responsible for, which would be allowed - anyone can volunteer, including PT mods, admods, and just normal AVENites).

Some of the projects on the list would actually be relatively long-term responsibilities, like "static content maintenance", "store upkeep", "AVENues editor-in-chief", and perhaps even the treasurer position that DJ and others are talking about in the Announcements forum.

That's just my own vision, and if other people differ I would love to hear it.

*wishes it was Monday so she could put this in the AVEN Digest*

[Sam B.I.]

I'd like to see the forum open to all who want/can contribute where people commit on a project to project basis as opposed to for a certain length of time.

I would prefer the mod/mods to be re-elected.

...whoever was in charge of the PT forum would be keeping and updating a list somewhere - maybe in a sticky, maybe in the Wiki - of all the major projects and responsibilities going on and who-all was responsible for them.

Sounds great. My feeling is the list should be a sticky AND in the wiki. And maybe have updates for status eg Poster: First draft nearly completed and will be presented for feedback in a week's time.

Other than maintaining the list, deciding whose projects get "official" AVEN project status,...

I don't like the idea of only one person deciding this - but it's not like the forum would need more than one mod. What if the person makes their proposal to all of AVEN and AVENites decide if the project should get the go ahead? On second thought, no, there's a lack of accountability. We do need some form of quality control, don't we? Anyone with ideas?

and figuring out what to do about inactive people who are responsible for something,

This will not be a pleasant task. Probably best to keep it simple. So someone is defined as inactive if no posts have been made for X weeks after which the moderater PM hir and then a series of steps I am not sure of ending in handing the project over to someone else?

the PT mods would be pretty hands-off (unless they had projects on the list that they themselves were responsible for, which would be allowed - anyone can volunteer, including PT mods, admods, and just normal AVENites).

Agreed, being a mod should not stop you from doing projects. Especially if we take into account GBRD's post about 10%-20% of an organisation's members being active and productive.

Some of the projects on the list would actually be relatively long-term responsibilities, like "static content maintenance", "store upkeep", "AVENues editor-in-chief", and perhaps even the treasurer position that DJ and others are talking about in the Announcements forum.

Will they need to be treated any differently from short-term projects?

[Sam B.I.]

I think I was making it way too bureaucratic.

One of the lessons I'm taking from the state of the PT is that it might be a good idea to take out some of the formal democratic processes and let people who are interested in helping out help out. The elected Admod team can serve as a formal check on what these ad hoc volunteer teams are doing, and the community in general (and me, with my community clout) can serve as an informal check.

It's not that I'm against democracy, I just think that at our current size it's clunky to set up too many bureaucratic procedures. We're somewhere in between a formal organization and a group of friends working on a project together. I think if we embrace more of the latter we'll have a little more fun.

I think it's important to keep what AVENguy said in mind.

[Coleslaw]

My personal thoughts are as follows:

Option #1: We've torn this to the ground. It worked for a short while and in mental theory it was good, but it did not and, even with new blood, probably will not work in actual practise. Honestly? Don't even keep this one in the poll. We'll probably just have to work through this again in a few months if it is reelected.

The other options are all interesting, and in any case, they'd work. "Open to everybody" is the important part in that. From there, it's more personal preference on how to see it run.

I think it'd be best to (re)elect PT members and make them moderators on the forum so that they can keep it clean, organized, and be the people to which comments, concerns, and accountability can be sent. In my perfect world, they'd be in charge of organization and help for those who wanna try and get a project off the ground, but not a lot else. If a project is proposed that is not needed or seems unreasonable in some way or another (monetarily, excessive, etc.) then they could hold a little vote on it and take care of the issue.

Really, in the end, I'd just like to see the PT as more member driven. Option 2-4 guarantee that, so. I'm happy any way the wind blows.

[Hallucigenia]

Ok. So... anyone else have anything to say about this? Or should I just get an admin to make a poll between options 2-4?

[Sam B.I.]

I would agree but where is everybody?

[Hallucigenia]

I would agree but where is everybody?

Maybe they are avoiding this thread 'cause they're tired of PT drama. :?

Oh, well. I put it in the AVEN Digest...

[mackat5]

I don't know about others, but I'm not sure what to say. I'm not even sure what the next direction should be.