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This asexual is 25/male, virgin, doesnt get horny and proud


choose_abstinence

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choose_abstinence

This asexual is 25/male, virgin, doesnt get horny and proud

Hello everyone! I am proud of who I am and consider myself asexual.

Looking back in my life, I probably knew from a very young age. It became obvious though once I was in middle school. I had a girl that had a crush on me in summer camp and wanted to "french kiss" me. I didnt even know what it was(12 at that time) I thought its how people in France kiss. :lol: She was persistant and we did end up lip kissing and this other girl took a pic of us, I kept the pic. I didnt feel any attraction as we kissed, in retospect I wasnt really into her to begin with. I did slow dance with several girls and that was much better than lip kissing, seriously.

I didnt discuss mating much with my parents but I remember when I was like 10, I asked my mom why do some people love to have lots and lots of ***? She just said "because it feels good" I just laughed and figured there are some really weird people!

I had abstinence ed. in high school and I liked that subject, found it very educational! I have been teaching others abstinence for years with the knowlege ive obtained.

There were some perverse men in high school who would talk about *** and mast*****ion. I thought they were just joking and sometimes I would laugh along with them. They asked me if I "jerked off" and I laughed and said no way thats gross, do you? Some said "me neither" others said "oh yea" The women for the most part were pure and innocent, I only knew a couple that had the "horny disease" one of them was Amber. She had nice hair and a nice curvy figure(5'6 140-145 pounds)

I was interested in her but not sexually, just wanted to date, cuddle and slow dance with her :D At first she agreed with my beliefs in abstinence but then found a boyfriend and they mated! I was :shock: and told her she could get pregnant or AIDS or something terrible! She just laughed and said we use protection.

To this day I am still asexual and will always be. I have no interest in p0rn or nudity, nor am I interested in anything besides first base which consists of cuddle, hug, kiss(not french!) holding hands, dating and romance. I probably will french kiss after we are together for a while but its not gonna interest me. I find mating or fourth base to be gross, icky, disgusting, perverse and very dangerous.

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Hi, and welcome to AVEN! Have some :cake: :)

I'm afraid that I can't agree with you on your use of the word "perverse", I think if people want to do that then there's nothing wrong with it. You're entitled to your opinion, though. :wink:

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i don't want to sound critical, but i think there may be a danger in being "proud" of being asexual. it could too easily be construed as elitism, i'd rather just settle for people realizing that you can not want to have sex and that you don't have a disorder. and taking pride in not doing something that you don't want to do is kind of a catch-22. i mean, once a friend of mine praised me since i would never have casual sex, and i told him not to, since he shouldn't praise me for not doing something i didn't want to do in the first place.

one of my struggles has been comprehending the kind of struggles other people who HAVE a desire for sex have to go through. i don't think i'm better than them, i realize that they have difficulties and conflicts that i can't really understand. i mean, i don't do heroin, but i don't want to, so i don't say i'm great for not doing it. i don't think that sex is gross or that i'm too good for it, in many ways, i wish i was like other people; it would certainly simplify my life, though it may have gotten me into trouble as well. my struggle isn't so much with getting people to "accept" that i don't want to have sex as it is an internal one; me understanding that most people can't help wanting to have it.

i didn't have abstinence-only sex ed, and i didn't bother to pay attention to sex ed since by the age of 12 i had a knowledge of human sexuality that would have probably put most experienced adults and even many sex therapists to shame. my parents never tried to choose my values for me, but they, and my mom especially, were big into making it known that men take advantage of women sexually, and that doing so was no better than being a sexual predator, and that even though women were themselves no angels nor innocent, since society privileges men men should be held more accountable for their sexual misconduct. i occasionally get criticized for that position, but i think it's only a heuristic to use to redress past injustice.

i don't think sex is dirty, perverse, or anything. i feel no revulsion, just it's not for me. part of this may be because i'm very aware of how much conflict it can cause even in a loving, committed relationship, even a stable marriage. i just can't think of it the way most people do. to most people, it's either just fun, or it's some kind of bonding experience, but it just seems way too dangerous for me to ever get involved in.

well, welcome aboard, and even if i disagree with someone i try to go easy, but that's my two cents. hope to read your stuff.

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Hi nad welcome.

Have some :cake:

Like Tel Vos I don't find sex perverse or disgusting it just isn't for me.

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asexual1976

Hello and welcome to AVEN !

I'm not sure I agree with you completely.

While I would agree that one should be very careful about whom one sleeps with and when - as there is the risk of STDs and unvoluntary pregnancies - I don't really see sex as something evil or bad that should be avoided at all cost. If you find the right person you love, then go ahead an have sex with him/her, just be careful, don't rush into it and err on the side of caution.

Personally, as an asexual, I don't want to be pressured into having sex, but I don't want to keep something from the vast majority that is apparently so important to them either. While I personally don't find the thought of myself having sex somehing I would fancy, I don't find the thought that other people are having sex particularly distasteful or revolting. I just don't want to be directly involved.

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Hi, welcome to AVEN!

To be honest, even though I am asexual, I am against abstinence education. Because it only works on kids that already have reservations about sex. The vast majority of teens are going to have sex anyway... it's better to teach safe sex than just saying, "Don't have sex, because that will solve your problems" - what highly sexually charged teen is going to listen to that?

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Welcome to AVEN! Have some :cake:

As you can see, there are many people with differing opinions in this community, and it's great to find another comrade in our lively debates. Hope to see you around the forums!

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choose_abstinence
i don't want to sound critical, but i think there may be a danger in being "proud" of being asexual. it could too easily be construed as elitism, i'd rather just settle for people realizing that you can not want to have sex and that you don't have a disorder. and taking pride in not doing something that you don't want to do is kind of a catch-22. i mean, once a friend of mine praised me since i would never have casual sex, and i told him not to, since he shouldn't praise me for not doing something i didn't want to do in the first place.

one of my struggles has been comprehending the kind of struggles other people who HAVE a desire for sex have to go through. i don't think i'm better than them, i realize that they have difficulties and conflicts that i can't really understand. i mean, i don't do heroin, but i don't want to, so i don't say i'm great for not doing it. i don't think that sex is gross or that i'm too good for it, in many ways, i wish i was like other people; it would certainly simplify my life, though it may have gotten me into trouble as well. my struggle isn't so much with getting people to "accept" that i don't want to have sex as it is an internal one; me understanding that most people can't help wanting to have it.

i don't think sex is dirty, perverse, or anything. i feel no revulsion, just it's not for me. part of this may be because i'm very aware of how much conflict it can cause even in a loving, committed relationship, even a stable marriage. i just can't think of it the way most people do. to most people, it's either just fun, or it's some kind of bonding experience, but it just seems way too dangerous for me to ever get involved in.

Well I tend to keep my asexuality and aversion to my own in public because the "sexuals" wouldn't understand, they have a hard time imagining someone "different" from them just as I can't believe how the "sexuals" think and act "that way" I could never understand what they could find interesting about something I consider dirty, gross, dangerous and perverse. I know this because porn is a turnoff, even boobs are kinda icky, I remember when slow dancing, I would try to avoid them from bumping into me, kinda hard to do when we are embraced arms in arms and swaying slowly to the music.

I don't need praise because I automatically wont be doing something I don't want to and in fact find it a major turn off. Would you jump into stinky mud or do what's done in "Fear factor"(for $50k I would)

I understand the "sexual's" struggles with lust, I find candles tempting, and while its harmless to collect them and enjoy their scent, my wallet is feeling light :? In fact I dreamt a few hours ago that I was in a store and they had candles for 75%, some were 80% off and the candles were so colorful with patterns in all colors of the rainbow and many were highly scented. :shock: :D :shock: :D :twisted:

I feel fortunate that I never get horny, in fact I have an aversion. This prevents me from risking my health(diseases, injuries) and getting a girl pregnant. Those who get horny may find their judgement clouded and not think strait, I know some who just "lost it, went for it" in the heat of the moment. Lots of regrets and pregnancy scares. Not getting horny certainly makes your life easier and also frees up your brain to think about more important things.

You may not find ***(hate even saying the word) dirty but I do. Does porn turn you off? I also realise that mating can complicate a relationship due to STDs, pregnancy, injuries and social, emotional issues. I know people who have no problems with mating and it has in fact bonded their relationship even stronger. Theres hundreds of other ways to bond and I think cuddling can achieve the same purpose without all the risks and grossness. You stand correct in how dangerous *** can be, I am still supprised why the "sexuals" desire something so gross and dangerous.

*my late dinner is ready, will post more when I return*

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choose_abstinence
Hello and welcome to AVEN !

I'm not sure I agree with you completely.

While I would agree that one should be very careful about whom one sleeps with and when - as there is the risk of STDs and unvoluntary pregnancies - I don't really see sex as something evil or bad that should be avoided at all cost. If you find the right person you love, then go ahead an have sex with him/her, just be careful, don't rush into it and err on the side of caution.

Personally, as an asexual, I don't want to be pressured into having sex, but I don't want to keep something from the vast majority that is apparently so important to them either. While I personally don't find the thought of myself having sex somehing I would fancy, I don't find the thought that other people are having sex particularly distasteful or revolting. I just don't want to be directly involved.

Thanks for the welcome. 8) I have learned that you can't be too careful, only abstinence guarantees you no risks. How many times have I heard from others that the condom broke or that the birth control didnt work? And those who cheat on others will spread diseases. I consider mating neccessary for the sole purpose of procreation or making babies. No other reason is good enough and there is a thousand other things you can do instead! I guess I also have a strong aversion that you don't, you just lack interest.

Hi, welcome to AVEN!

To be honest, even though I am asexual, I am against abstinence education. Because it only works on kids that already have reservations about sex. The vast majority of teens are going to have sex anyway... it's better to teach safe sex than just saying, "Don't have sex, because that will solve your problems" - what highly sexually charged teen is going to listen to that?

Yes and no. It depends if the subject listens only to what he wants to hear and make excuses or downplay the risks. I talk to people that are so horny their mind is clouded with lust and they don't think about anything except when the next time they can mate. They sometimes use protection but if that is not available or they are in the heat of the moment, they go ahead anyway. I still say educate them while still in high school, sometimes even middle school. Scare them as much as possible with the dire risks of diseases, injuries and pregnancy. This will result in a great reduction in disasters and a high percentage of abstinant people. It's too easy for an asexual(especially with aversion) to abstain, but may be a challenge for horny sexuals. Those sexuals will need to make a concious effort to abstain and not put themselves in the situation. One good tactic is to hang posters such as those:

youth_abs.jpg

abstinence_key.jpg

main_left.jpg

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Scare them as much as possible with the dire risks of diseases, injuries and pregnancy. This will result in a great reduction in disasters and a high percentage of abstinant people. It's too easy for an asexual(especially with aversion) to abstain, but may be a challenge for horny sexuals. Those sexuals will need to make a concious effort to abstain and not put themselves in the situation.

I think we're on very different pages. I am not against teen sex. At all.

The sexual revolution of the 60s liberated the western world from propaganda like this. I am completely pro-sex for sexual people - it's a natural, healthy thing to do. I encourage any sexual person over the age of 16 to experiment - so long as it's safe sex. It's for this reason that I think any teen with a raging libido should be free to exercise it with another consenting teen. Abstaining is fine for someone for whom it doesn't matter - asexuals and those with low sex drives - and that's fine! But STDs can be prevented via condoms, and sexual teens ARE going to have sex sometime, so they might as well be good at it by their 20s. Sex is not something people should be taught to fear.

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choose_abstinence
Scare them as much as possible with the dire risks of diseases, injuries and pregnancy. This will result in a great reduction in disasters and a high percentage of abstinant people. It's too easy for an asexual(especially with aversion) to abstain, but may be a challenge for horny sexuals. Those sexuals will need to make a concious effort to abstain and not put themselves in the situation.

I think we're on very different pages. I am not against teen sex. At all.

The sexual revolution of the 60s liberated the western world from propaganda like this. I am completely pro-sex for sexual people - it's a natural, healthy thing to do. I encourage any sexual person over the age of 16 to experiment - so long as it's safe sex. It's for this reason that I think any teen with a raging libido should be free to exercise it with another consenting teen. Abstaining is fine for someone for whom it doesn't matter - asexuals and those with low sex drives - and that's fine! But STDs can be prevented via condoms, and sexual teens ARE going to have sex sometime, so they might as well be good at it by their 20s. Sex is not something people should be taught to fear.

I guess we have our disagreements. I think the opposite and am against ***. I definately don't consider it healthy and only consider it natural when two adults are ready to settle down and have children. There is no such thing as safe *** unless its total abstinence. If I was not asexual and I had the hornies, I would just use my hand, look at porn or even buy a high quality "doll" that looks like a real female for me to "pleasure" with. Condoms do not prevent STDs! They may reduce the risk but did you know condoms have a 15% failure rate? I fear *** because its gross, disgusting, perverse and very dangerous! I am both asexual and have an aversion.

Even sexual people can make abstinence work for them, they do have to make an effort to resist their "urges", be strong, dont give in!

edit: In response to someone's post, I wanted to also put it here because it is relevent to my own asexuality and provides further details about me.

That was a very intelluctually stimulating post. Great usage of words. You really made me think to myself and pounder those things that apply to my asexual life.

I can understand why people don't like using lables, there is too much ambigrity and no hard and fast definition. The best lable for me and you is asexual type 1. We may minimally fit into other lables but they far from accurately portray our true identities. I have had lots of people throw the "gay" lable at me because I wasn't sexually attracted to women, never mind the fact I lack that attraction in men too. Others have thrown diagnosis at me, saying I was "abnormal" or "disturbed" to which couldn't be further from the truth. There is no way people can understand me from first impressions. I got a first impression of you from your long, thought out post but I am still far from a conclusion.

Your perspective on things parallels mine on some aspects and this helps us great minds think alike. Different people like different people in different ways. Now it becomes an opinion that can't be argued as each person has a unique perspective, although ours is similar. How you interact with others may stimulate you intelluctually, physically and emotionally. Who is to argue that people are expected to react in a certain way?

No one seems to agree when the line is crossed into boy/girl friend. I could provide the explict definition but how it is interpreted is left up to the mind and opinion. What must be "done" to qualify? Is it just a silly social lable? Can one do "stuff" with a friend without being boy/girl friend? What if two close friends share mutual affection intelluctually, physically, socially, emotionally and spiritally? Do they then get the boy/girl friend lable? Would other people throw that lable at them based on their own criteria and definition of what "fits"?

It gets tricky when one wants to go "beyond" a platonic friendship. Perhaps the mutual affection intelluctually, physically, socially, emotionally and spiritally becomes more concentrate and intense? I could use the analogy of boy/girl friend to brother/sister because brothers and sisters share a sort of bond that is different, weaker or abstant in friendship and boy/girl friend. There are many different aspects of relationships, the way people relate, bond and interact to others.

Outwardly, I am perceptive to why some humans recreationally mate. For the most part, this satisfies their physical desires. Many also say it helps them emotionally and spiritually bond. But caution needs to be exercised as I have witnessed countless relationships parted by recreational mating. Then there is the biological, physical, emotional, psysiological and social determinants that may ruin your health and life. I personally see no reason good enough other than the desire to start a family and even that there are ways around if your virginity is important.

Mating is for the animals, not civilized humans. We are very advanced intellegent life forms that interact on a higher level than primative mating. I realise mating was intended by nature for procreation and most life forms mate sexually rather than asexually in order to reproduce so they don't go extinct. Humans are different because they have concious cognitive abilities and their technology has allowed ways to procreate without actual mating. Technology will oneday liberate the female from the pains of pregnancy and babies will be grown in tube-like artifical wombs. Mating among humans is facing obsolence.

Relationships work just fine if not better in the absense of sexual overtones. There is truth in preserving a higher level by abstaining from primative "urges" and desires that animals partake in and only for procreation at that. I think the best possible relationships are between two asexuals :D There are literally unlimited ways to demostrate love, why must mating even be an option with all its problems and to attest the fact some people(like me) find the mare thought physically repulsive? It's dirty, unsanitory and reminds me of open wounds or surgury in progress. Definately squirmish. Might as well play in stinky mud among pigs!

What kind of attraction do you have towards other humans? If it is strictly platonic, lacking any romantic desires such as cuddling, slow dancing, dating then you are asexual type 2. You don't even want to be touched or held nor do you want to date and have boy/girl friend relationships. You intend to keep affection, emotion and all forms of physical contact off limits. Else, you are asexual type 1 if anything with a sexual overtone has zero interest or even repulses you(like it does for me) Even french kissing is kinda icky to me, its something I could partake but wouldn't find arousing or even enjoyable. I do enjoy cuddling and slow dancing and other forms of first base affection.

I don't believe in sexual nor marital love, ill never ever marry nor have children. I saw one movie in particular where this guy thinks it's stupid to fall in love because of all the emotional problems. It's much simpler to be friends forever without getting overly emotionally attrached. You should see all those divorces going on. Good relationships gone bad and divorces are a legal nightmare for both. Good reason why I do not believe in marriage nor do I think it is wise to marry. The world has enough children, I do not need to contribute, especially given my lack of interest. Technology will soon get to the point where we can grow babies in tube-like artifical wombs using donated sperm+egg. Those donors can either take the role of biological parents or let nannies raise them then release them once they are old enough to support themselves(ages 16 to 21 depends) then those young adults can make their own friends or even form asexual relationships to satisfy their aromantic desires :D When it comes time to reproduce, they can donate their own sperm+egg and have the choice of raising the grown child or pay a fee(perhaps tax deductable?) to send it off to nannies who will raise dozens or even hundreds of children. Not everyone has the time or desire to take on a parental role, I for one don't.

I hope my long post provides some answers that you eagerly seek. Please respond to this post, feel free to ask further questions and also give your opinionated comments based on what ive said. You may also download AIM or some instant messenger and we can correspond 1:1, you have much wisdom to share and vice versa :D :D :D

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asexual1976

choose abstinence wrote :

I have learned that you can't be too careful, only abstinence guarantees you no risks. How many times have I heard from others that the condom broke or that the birth control didnt work? And those who cheat on others will spread diseases. I consider mating neccessary for the sole purpose of procreation or making babies. No other reason is good enough and there is a thousand other things you can do instead! I guess I also have a strong aversion that you don't, you just lack interest.

Sure. Sex has risks. But so does driving a car, swimming and climbing a hill. But that's no reason so stay home all the time. Life is dangerous and ultimately deadly. The only thing you can do is be careful about what you do.

No other reason is good enough and there is a thousand other things you can do instead!

That might be true for you and me but there are millions (in fact billions) of people out there who apparently have a huge desire for sex. While I am one of the very few people that don't have an interest, that doesn't mean I have a desire to or even have the right to prevent others from doing it.

There are many, many things in this world I find distasteful, unpleasant or simply boring. But just because I can't begin to imagine why people tie themselves to a rope and jump of a cliff to get an adrenalin rush doesn't mean that I can have it banned. And just because I find hot-dog-eating championships nauseating doesn't mean that I have an urge to prevent them.

The world isn't perfect and it certainly isn't 100 % the way I would like it. But I can't go around preventing others from doing what they like unless they are a) hurting third parities (intentionally) or B) forcefully involve me in something I don't want to be involved in.

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choose_abstinence
Sure. Sex has risks. But so does driving a car, swimming and climbing a hill. But that's no reason so stay home all the time. Life is dangerous and ultimately deadly. The only thing you can do is be careful about what you do.

You want to minimize the risks in your life, avoid anything of little or no neccessarity. Almost everyone drives or has been driven, this is a risk you can't afford unless you want to stay home 24/7 and have stuff shipped to your mailbox. Swimming is an avoidable risk but it is important to learn how to swim in case you accidentally fall into water, it is an advantage to be a good swimmer or at least know how to properly swim. Climbing a hill is a somewhat un-neccessary risk but poses little danger if the hill isnt steep and icy. Lots of people hike up hills for fun and exercise, that benefit may very well be worth the risk. To compare the risks of mating to the risk of driving is a fallacy I often hear. No one needs to go out and get laid but almost everyone needs to drive at some point or be driven somewhere.

That might be true for you and me but there are millions (in fact billions) of people out there who apparently have a huge desire for sex. While I am one of the very few people that don't have an interest, that doesn't mean I have a desire to or even have the right to prevent others from doing it.

There are many, many things in this world I find distasteful, unpleasant or simply boring. But just because I can't begin to imagine why people tie themselves to a rope and jump of a cliff to get an adrenalin rush doesn't mean that I can have it banned. And just because I find hot-dog-eating championships nauseating doesn't mean that I have an urge to prevent them.

The world isn't perfect and it certainly isn't 100 % the way I would like it. But I can't go around preventing others from doing what they like unless they are a) hurting third parities (intentionally) or B) forcefully involve me in something I don't want to be involved in.

I know that no one can forcefully thwart others from mating, heck even if it was illegal, less people would still mate and many will just end up in jail. An analogy is drugs, people still do them anyway. The key here is education and facts. Those who desire mating should at least stop and think about the consequences which many don't. The longer you can wait and abstain, the better. An unwanted pregnancy by two people in their mid 20s is much less disasterous than two high school teens. I think you should complete your education before even thinking about losing your virginity. Educated people fare much better when a disaster strikes and also they have more income from their higher paying jobs. The best is to wait till you marry and stay monogamous! This is the stuff we learn in high school in abstinence ed class. We are taught that only abstinence is the correct, safe choice and to wait till marriage. We are also taught all the STDs, pregnancy, injuries, issues, etc.

Don't you think some self control or restraint should be exercised by those horny people with mating desires? There are alot of things I desire but I avoid partaking in anything that may harm or kill me. I talk to horny friends and their lack of control is shocking to say. They brag about their "conquest" and how many times they have done "it" Those are the kind of people at highest risk for diseases and unwanted pregnancies and this affects us tax payers and also health insurance costs have been going up. I hope you can understand my opinions on this serious matter.[/b]

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asexual1976

choose abstinence wrote:

No one needs to go out and get laid but almost everyone needs to drive at some point or be driven somewhere.

I may not be the best person to explain this (maybe some sexuals will go into more detail), but from what I understand there is a very strong desire and most psychologist would agree a basic need for sex in most people's lives and repressing that need can lead to all kinds of mental difficulties. (That's probably why they always try and "cure" asexuals because they can't understand that there is a small percentage of people that doesn't have that need),

Those who desire mating should at least stop and think about the consequences which many don't. The longer you can wait and abstain, the better. An unwanted pregnancy by two people in their mid 20s is much less disastrous than two high school teens. I think you should complete your education before even thinking about losing your virginity. Educated people fare much better when a disaster strikes and also they have more income from their higher paying jobs. The best is to wait till you marry and stay monogamous!

I completely agree that people should wait as long as they can and until they're absolutely certain they're ready for it. And that they should be extra careful when engaging in sexual intercourse. I just can submit to the notion that the inherent dangers should make them avoid it altogether.

hope you can understand my opinions on this serious matter
Yes. I can understand that you have strong feelings on the matter. And admittedly the matter is serious enough to warrant public discussion.

Just one small note however : Here we are, two asexuals discussing when, how and under what circumstances sexuals should have sex and when not. I'm a bit worried we might not fully understand what sex is all about. It's sort of like a blind person discussing which colour is best. While I agree that everyone (asexuals included) has a right to warm about the dangers of sex, I'm not so sure were fully qualified to be judging the necessity of sexual intercourse per se.

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Mark from the OCD board

WARNING: THERE ARE MILD DESCRIPTIONS OF SEX IN THIS POST. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO READ THEM, YOU CAN SKIP IT WITH NO HARD FEELINGS ON MY PART. :)

I have had lots of people throw the "gay" lable at me because I wasn't sexually attracted to women, never mind the fact I lack that attraction in men too. Others have thrown diagnosis at me, saying I was "abnormal" or "disturbed" to which couldn't be further from the truth.

I would never say that, and I am sexual. It is shameful when people apply labels to things they do not understand. I have also spoken to two different psychologists I know, and neither one would try to "cure" an asexual. Of course, there are also many people who are exactly like your description, some members of the psychiatric community included. Very little is understood about asexuality outside the asexual community, and for that reason I applaud what the folks on Aven do.

You have every right to be who you are, and I support you in that. If I knew you in real life, we could certainly go out for super spicy Thai food, discuss science fiction, look at the ocean, tour an art gallery, and so forth without ever needing to discuss who I want to hop in bed with. No matter what you have experienced in the past, know that there are sexuals who will accept you as you are. Maybe they just need to understand asexuality a little better first.

As I will discuss momentarily, though, I am a little hurt by your implication that I should recreate myself in your image. I would never demand that you be sexual or change your views on marriage; that is your affair. My parents, both of whom are sexual and enjoy recreational sex, were married in 1962. They are still together, and neither one has ever cheated. My goal is to find what they found.

But first...

I did not post in this thread when I first saw it, as I did not want to pounce on you, a new person in his first thread, and possibly turn you off to the board. The thread's position in the Welcome Lounge also made me think carefully about whether my posting here would be a good idea.

I want to make it clear, choose_abstinence, that I am not posting against you personally or trying to drive you away. In addition, I have just posted in another thread that I need to spend less time on this board for a variety of reasons, and someone who wants to spend less time here may not be the best person to join in.

Still, I do want to show some support for the wise words of asexual1976, Parthenoxy, and the others while addressing some of the implications of your words. I will try my best to do so in a manner that is fair to you and non-confrontational.

First, I have no problem with people who choose abstinence or celibacy; I have a close sexual friend who has been celibate for more than ten years. It work for him; I could never do it, as it would be agonizing for me. Some can do it; some cannot. In a small number of cases (people who suffer from sexual addiction and are in a Twelve Step Program for it, for example), abstinence may lead to a better quality of life.

I also have no problem with presenting teens with abstinence as a viable option--provided it is not the only option they are given since many of them are going to have sex no matter what. The latter point is just the way it is in the modern world. In the past, many people were married almost as soon as they hit puberty, and, for a variety of biological/psychological/sociological/nutritional reasons, puberty tended to come around fifteen/sixteen, not as early as it does today. Today there is this long period of high school/college/grad school, yet hormones are racing.

Scaring youngsters with a sensationalized version of risks is dangerous. As a teacher who cares deeply about his students and as someone who does voluntary work in sex education, I know that making sex seem dirty and wrong, embarrassing teens over their biological urges, increases the chance that sex will be abused. Teens need many options so they can think logically, without terror, and make responsible choices. These choices may or may not include abstinence.

I in fact have told many teenage boys in particular that it is absolutely fine to wait to have sex, as many feel humiliated if they have not lost it in high school. Some even falsely begin to fear that they are gay if they have not had sex. I have seen relief on their faces when I have given them the facts, without sensationalization. (Sometimes their own fathers, not just their peers, are the ones who give them the idea that something is wrong with them if they are not sexually active.) Basically, I say something like this (usually with more New York street slang and less grammatical precision): "Wait until you feel you are ready, whenever that is. People say that guys can pressure girls into sex, but girls can pressure guys into having sex, too. You are not less of a man if you decide to wait, and you are not a bad person if you decide not to wait."

Many misinformed teens will tell you utter nonsense: For example, drinking Coke with lemon will prevent pregnancy. (Yes, I have heard that one with these very ears.) That is why I believe they need to know the facts about responsible sex. The era of wire hanger abortions in back alleys should be long gone, but it will remain with us if sex is shrouded in disgust and horror.

It is also important to note that sex is not limited to vaginal, anal, and oral penetration, the higher risk activities. At the risk of sounding like Dr. Ruth (which I often do), there are many ways to have good sex together. They do not have to involve penetration, yet they can involve excellent orgasms (body rubbing, hand stimulation, role play, etc.) and are satisfying since a partner is involved; many youngsters practice this. Others practice vaginal, oral, and/or anal penetration monogamously and take more precautions than condoms alone to prevent pregnancy and STDs. (I am probably already being too graphic here, and I do not want this post to be deleted, so I will not describe the actual events further.)

If a committed, monogamous sexual couple (married or unmarried) wants to have sex (whatever type they choose) as part of love and bonding, why shouldn't they? They may not want children at that stage--or ever. Does that mean they should never have sex? Many sexuals cannot be happy without sex in their lives--just as many asexuals cannot be happy with sex in their lives.

I prefer monogamy for myself. But... Finding a life partner is hard, and it is not always realistic to expect someone to hold out on sex until he or she finds "the one" Some may never find a partner. Others may have had a wonderful partner who was lost to death or divorce. We are who we are, and once the period of mourning has ended, biological drives are still there.

Back to children... The world is already overpopulated, and I believe people who choose not to have children are acting very responsibily. The alternate is the large families of yesteryear, when religion dictated that sex could only be for procreation. My own Sicilian grandmother had eleven sisters and brothers, and I went to college in the 1980s with an Irish Catholic whose parents had passed twelve children and were still going at it.

Further, as a gay male who will never have sex with a woman, I feel that your ideas imply that I should forego sex since I will never procreate; such a life would be pure misery for me. That is not my biological wiring. It also goes against what gays have fought for so very long: the right to be who we are. Many Christians say it is all right to be gay as long as one does not commit gay acts. That is splitting hairs, a form of word play. Gay people do indeed commit gay acts. Turning love between two people of the same sex into an abomination in society's eyes is the reason a disproportionate number of gay teens commit suicide--and the reason so many gay kids are tossed into the streets by their good Christian parents. Right here in New York City, not just in the Bible Belt, many of these kids are forced into prostitution in order to eat. Others do drugs to cope with this rejection. AIDS and/or drug abuse can take their lives rather quickly.

Please think very carefully about what you are saying. I respect you for your energy and commitment, and I believe you do what you do because you care. However, the ideas you propose are very good for some but very bad for others. Sexuals need to be understood on their own terms for the same reason that asexuals need to be understood on their own terms.

Even sexual people can make abstinence work for them, they do have to make an effort to resist their "urges", be strong, dont give in!

Isn't that a bit like my saying that even asexual people can make sex work for them if they make an effort to resist their lack of urge? I would never say such a thing since it would be insulting to asexuals.

A lot of what you say contains sweeping generalizations, and you seem to lump all sexuals into one category. I have no doubt that some of your friends talk about their conquests and live for the next screw, but do you really think all sexuals are like that? We are as diverse a group as any other.

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"I think we're on very different pages. I am not against teen sex. At all.

The sexual revolution of the 60s liberated the western world from propaganda like this. I am completely pro-sex for sexual people - it's a natural, healthy thing to do. I encourage any sexual person over the age of 16 to experiment - so long as it's safe sex."

Well... I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Sex is for grown-ups, period.

Sure, there was a sexual revolution in the 60's, but there were also a lot of people taking LSD then thinking they could fly and jumping off roof tops so they crashed to their deaths, there were riots at Kent State, there was Vietnam, Agent Orange, Mai Lai, Jack & Bobby & Martin got killed... yeah, man, the 60's were a drag...

Teenagers just aren't mature enough for sex. They are capable of safe sex but don't always use it. Why? Because they are immature.

Teenagers have a lot of car accidents because they are immature, they do drugs because they are immature, they binge drink, bring weapons to school... shall I continue?

Look, I have nothing -- absolutely nothing -- against young people. Some of them are awesome. I was a teenager once. Was I mature enough for sex (even if I wanted it, which I did not)? NO! Teenagers are still kids -- they are children in adult bodies. They still have insecurities, self esteem issues, and a lot of times they just don't know their way around the big bad world -- they are easily manipulated by older adults and their peers, and they are easily led into things they just have no business doing.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Sex is for adults. And that's that.

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"Humans are different because they have concious cognitive abilities and their technology has allowed ways to procreate without actual mating. Technology will oneday liberate the female from the pains of pregnancy and babies will be grown in tube-like artifical wombs. Mating among humans is facing obsolence. "

sorry, but i can't figure out how to get the quote to work, pardon my technical ineptitude, but i had to comment on this.

first off, sexual people find sex very meaningful. it helps them to bond with each other. it makes people feel loved and wanted. i mean, yeah, it would be rad if in the future instead of eating icky food we all just took a pill that had no taste and contained the day's nutrients! well, for sexual people what you have just said equals that prospect, and that's bad sci-fi from the pulp era.

also, i have known many women who, in spite of the burden of pregnancy, childbirth, lactation and the like, found it to be an immensely meaningful experience. we are not brains in vats. we have bodies, and bodies mean something. i mean, let's say science could guarantee that i could live 100 years and i wouldn't have to exercise. well, i find doing yoga, swimming and walking enjoyable. in a sense, so much of our psyches are connected to our bodies and to the experience of having a body. avital roneell once commented on artificial intelligence researcher and roboticist marvin minsky saying that the human body was a "bloody, juicy mess" or something like that. she said that such a comment would very unlikely come from a woman, who monthly experiences a reminder of the connection between that bloody, juicy mess and the continuation of life on the planet. seriously, i doubt many women feel that it would liberate them; if anything, growing babies in vats is a slander against women and an insult to their capacity for having children. it's like saying, women, the thing that makes you unique from men is unnecessary. not that that's all there is to being a woman, but to many women it is important. you should read the last chapter of portrait of the artist, when cranly is talking to stephen. stephen is refusing to go to church on easter and take communion because he says he doesn't believe in god. cranly says he should do it because he should love his mother. he says (and i quote from memory, inexactly) "whatever is uncertain in this stinking dunghill of a world a mother's love is not. she carries you in her body and faces death to bring you into this world. what can you know about what she feels? IDEAS every jackass in the road has ideas, but a mother's love must be real."

perhaps the vulnerability of our bodies and the fact that mere physical pleasure and pain, which, to an icy cold intellect such as yourself seem so trivial, can do so much is what gives life poignancy and meaning.

and also, romantic love has nothing to do with touching; you can't put this stuff on a scale of "first base, etc." i was once in love, and i never once touched the person except the first day i met her when i shook her hand, one other time when i shook her hand, and that was it. i'm serious, i counted. how did i know i was in love? because of what i felt in my heart. keep in mind when i say all this mushy stuff i was a LOGICIAN, but if anything life and school has taught me that logic is a faulty modality for negotiating life.

honestly, what kind of a world are you campaigning for choose abstinence? it seems like you would sanitize the universe out of existence. i mean, what isn't gross when you think about it? why this urge to transcend the physical? are you hoping to someday upload your mind into a computer so you can be a pure intellect with no messy body? what kind of emotions do you feel towards anyone, other than the belief that everything they do is gross, or trivial, or meaningless because you can't know their joy? i don't feel like my being asexual is great, it places me in incredible difficulty. true, if two asexual people got married you would never need to worry about sex causing conflict, but getting married introduces the notion that there might be more conflict than say, just dating, and dating means there might be more conflict than being just friends. it's a vulnerability thing; you agree to risk despair and pain and all that for a chance to feel closer to someone by sharing something with them that is private. in a lot of marriages sex brings people together.

if you're on some campaign to convince people of something, you're going to have to try to understand them, and to not show contempt. if you think someday science will give us a perfect world, is having no pain, no hardship, no risk, no difficulty, is that what would make a perfect world? you should see the movie zardoz or read stanislaw lem's book the cyberiad when he talks about the planet that reached the highest possible level of development. the idea that we can, through science, produce paradise is a science fiction dystopian premise that is was old-hat in the 1950s.

some of my friends are getting married, and i know they will have sex. i hope they have a great time doing it. i hope that the girl gets pregnant and gets to have a baby and all that since they want kids. i'm sure that if she had a choice between going through pregnancy or having the baby grow in a tube she would choose to have it in her body. try telling that idea to a woman, most of them will get pretty pissed, particularly those who have had children. i mean, i have plenty of stuff besides sex to get into with someone and i think that a lifetime wouldn't be enough to share those things, and i just don't feel like having sex, but it's just how i am. i have no reason, i have some theories, but in the end i just don't want to. but many people need something that makes them feel good to bond and we can't all be sophisticated intellectuals, and it's a good thing there is something as simple as sex that can work for them.

well, that's quite a bit. don't take it personally, but i just resent this whole scientific utopia idea. if anything, when life is too easy, that's when people get depressed and despair. suicide rates are far higher in the US and Japan, two pretty rich countries, than they are in almost all of africa, and i'm sure it's a much cushier life in the US and Japan.

i'm stopping now, but i had to say that. and there's a difference between being repulsed as in genuinely repulsed, and repulsed as in you think it's beneath you. people walking around with elitist views doesn't help people to accept asexuality, since then people assume if you say you're asexual you think you're TOO GOOD for sex and BEYOND IT.

and what exactly is this whole notion that the human species needs to somehow transcend sex? where would transcending stop? i mean, is it o.k. to enjoy it being warm and not cold? that's something we have in common with many animals. i mean, i don't think that human life is possible except through our physical bodies, and sex is part of the experience of having a body for most people. why would they want to give up something that feels good and helps them connect? just because some intellectual thinks it's messy? well, life is messy, we are made out of flesh and bone, what should be be? i mean, i think our emotions are tied in with our physical needs, we learn to feel love because our mothers/parents provide for our physical need when we are completely helpless.

and transcending, i mean, i've worn glasses since i was 4, i have terrible eyesight. one guy asked me "if they could fix that, would you?" and i said, "no, i'd prefer just to keep wearing glasses." this obnoxious moron told me "that's stupid. it's like some guy with a limp saying that he'd rather not get that fixed and keep walking with a cane." well, wearing glasses is something i've done for all of my living memory; it's just part of life for me, and you know, i'm cool with that. it's just part of me being me, and seriously, why should some kind of optimization algorithm determine how we live our lives?

sexuality is tied in with every context of human existence, because it means something, even to people like me who don't care to have it, i understand that. sexuality exists for a person in a moral, religious, social, cultural, political, and every other conceivable area of human existence context; it has a meaning in all those areas. i mean, part of the reason i can't want to have sex is that i can't be sure that my partner's needs and desires would be symmetric and complementary to my own, and i couldn't live with the idea that i'm making someone compromise on something so private that involves the use of their body. sexuality is VERY VERY complex, i've known that since i was ten, which may be the reason why i don't want to HAVE sex. but like i said, willingly taking a risk doing something that has the potential to bond you together with another person, knowing full well it can backfire, is why people have sex. i mean, the moment you choose to interact with another person you are taking risks, at least so long as how someone else feels matters to you, or that other people can influence your feelings.

on that last point, what kind of feelings do you experience towards anyone? i hate to ask a question that sounds like that, but what you post makes me wonder. i support anyone's decision to not have sex, but it seems like not only are you saying no to sex, no to romantic relationships, but it seems like you'd reduce human existence to some kind of robotic process- to what end? without emotion, vulnerability, and to some extent irrationality life has no meaning. i mean, if all you had was logic, what logical reason is there to exist? what purpose would existence serve? to gather knowledge? but why would you care? because you DO? well, that's just some compulsion, there is no reason for anything to want to know anything, just some instinct, some subjective desire. maybe the rarified heights of pure intellectual discourse without any messy bodily fluids or *gasp* icky gooey mushy emotions feels good to you, and hey, more power to you, but i wouldn't want to live in your future.

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I'm sorry but I think the choose abstinence website is wrong. Period. Most people, in fact probably 99% of them, are sexual, and an asexual person does not have the right to try to take that away from them. You are attempting to intrude on others' feelings and attack something that comes naturally to them and feels good to them (and harms no one, there IS such a thing as safe sex, look it up!), and that is wrong. You don't like sex. Fine. I don't either, I think it's disgusting, but I also know that for many people it's a wonderful thing, and as long as it stays away from me I do not care what others do.

I am a product of abstinence-only sex education and I can tell you that it does not work as far as keeping teen pregnancy rates and STDs under control. In much of Texas, which is under the abstinence-only program, teen pregnancy rates are something like 75% - and upwards of 90% in poorer counties. The only thing all these pregnant girls have in common is having been denied proper sex education. Not to mention, in Houston, syphilis has reached epidemic proportions. I'm 22 and I still hear people in my age group, even other college students, say ignorant things about sex and contraception because they were never properly educated. Abstinence-only education is a national embarrassment on every level and I feel that it's wrong of you, especially as an asexual with no personal investment in sex, to promote it. This is no more legitimate than anti-gay activists trying to turn the whole world straight or PeTA trying to turn the whole world vegan.

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I'm 22 and I still hear people in my age group, even other college students, say ignorant things about sex and contraception because they were never properly educated. Abstinence-only education is a national embarrassment on every level and I feel that it's wrong of you, especially as an asexual with no personal investment in sex, to promote it. This is no more legitimate than anti-gay activists trying to turn the whole world straight or PeTA trying to turn the whole world vegan.

I can't believe people younger than me are forced to be in abstinence ed programs in schools. I always thought they were outdated. We never had such a program in high school - we had sex fairs...lol...They were interesting. We go in groups of 8 and go from one tent to another engaging in discussions about date rape, teen pregnancy, STDs, safe sex, abortion, contraceptives, mental health, etc. There was one tent, we had to demonstrate how to put on condoms on a fake penis. After that they gave us free condoms. The only thing missing was the discussion about different sexual identities. Seriously, the sex fairs were very educational and is probably a lot more effective than abstinence ed programs.

I used to teach 12 - 14 year old students and believe me, some of them were sexually active, so preaching about the "horrors" of sex won't do much of anything. They don't get bothered about it. Besides I don't think it's right to teach children that sex is something evil and dirty. They just need to be informed about sex and any issues regarding that subject at an early age, so that later on they can make informed decisions regarding their own bodies.

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I may not be the best person to explain this (maybe some sexuals will go into more detail), but from what I understand there is a very strong desire and most psychologist would agree a basic need for sex in most people's lives and repressing that need can lead to all kinds of mental difficulties. (That's probably why they always try and "cure" asexuals because they can't understand that there is a small percentage of people that doesn't have that need)

This is something I can never relate to. I have different desires but are those analogies a valid comparsion? I desire to collect coins and candles for example.

Well... I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Sex is for grown-ups, period.

Teenagers just aren't mature enough for sex. They are capable of safe sex but don't always use it. Why? Because they are immature.

Teenagers have a lot of car accidents because they are immature, they do drugs because they are immature, they binge drink, bring weapons to school... shall I continue?

Look, I have nothing -- absolutely nothing -- against young people. Some of them are awesome. I was a teenager once. Was I mature enough for sex (even if I wanted it, which I did not)? NO! Teenagers are still kids -- they are children in adult bodies. They still have insecurities, self esteem issues, and a lot of times they just don't know their way around the big bad world -- they are easily manipulated by older adults and their peers, and they are easily led into things they just have no business doing.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Sex is for adults. And that's that.

That is why abstinence ed. is so crucial in high school. We were taught to wait till marriage. The longer you abstain, the better even if you can't wait forever.

davidrugova, let me address your post.

1. I will never relate to them. Us asexuals always wonder why they cant employ other alternatives. I can think of a thousand ways to bond right now, why does it have to be mating? I asked this question in another forum and no one could even give me a good answer. Is sexuality something that can't be explained, only experienced by those who aren't asexual? As for the food pill, thats an interesting concept that deserves its own thread 8)

2. I am sure plenty of women would love to have children minus the 9 months pregnancy. Many asexuals prefer IVF over losing their virginity.

3. I am receptive to pleasure and pain thru my five senses. Right now I am experiencing olfactory pleasure at the aromic candle burning.

4. You experienced platonic love and expressed it verbally, intelluctually, emotionally and spiritually.

5. This was funny and made me think. Nope, don't want to be an android, a small amount of "messy" is acceptable. For instance, it got messy when I was sick and in the hospital. I did hate this but it was not a choice. I know what joy is like, we asexuals seek joy sans anything sexual. Don't personally believe in marriage, but willing to risk dispair in order to chance a romantic relationship. Hundreds of other things in life can led to dispair. I am feeling dispair now that my home business isnt going very well.

6. I don't think there can be an utopia, it doesn't even obay the laws of reality. Books and movies have been made about this but there is always room for error somewhere. Our world can be much improved upon but imperfection is nature.

7. I wish them a happy marriage that lasts forever. Can't comment on anything else. As for bonding, different people bond differently. There is low level bonding which invokes the physical senses and high level bonding that transcends the physical and focuses on intelluctual, emotional and spiritual. Us asexuals place priority on high level bonding. I am a romantic asexual(type 1 asexual) so I welcome first base such as cuddling, dating, slow dancing and light kissing. Even animals often like affection.

8. Some may get the impression that I am an elitist, but I tell them that anything sexual is replusive, gross, dirty, objectable not to mention dangerous. Let's use this analogy: A heterosexual is repulsed by his own gender, a homosexual is repulsed by the opposite gender and an asexual is repulsed by both genders. I don't have any more interest in my own gender than does a heterosexual nor any more interest in the opposite gender than a homosexual. Asexuals choose "neither"

9. Animals mate only for procreation, why don't humans follow this example?

10. If you mean lasik, I aren't touching it either because of all the complications it causes. There is nothing "stupid" about refusing elective surgury. I do want to be less dependant on glasses but lasik is not the answer, this technology is fundamentally flawed, I know everything about lasik and do not recommend it to anyone.

11. Sexuality to me means that I was born, it means bringing new life and that is wonderful. Nature permitted this so animals and humans can procreate and not go extinct. I do not believe in *** with the exception for procreation. I would satisfy my girlfriend's needs(currently single) in a thousand other ways both low and high level. I would be there for her, listen to her, offer emotional support. We would engage in intelluctual converstations that exercise our minds and make us really pounder the existance of the universe. For the low level stuff, there is romance and gifts, id buy her chocolate which im sure she would enjoy immensely 8)

12. I am a romantic asexual and have explained my feelings in the previous points.

retrophile, The only safe *** I believe in is abstinence or out of neccessarity for procreation in a monogamous relationship. Animals mate for the sole purpose of procreation, but this does not apply to me as I never want children(asexuality being one of many reasons) With the prevelence of STDs, unwanted pregnancy, physical injuries, emotional distress, etc I can not imagine *** being safe. I however realise in the world of sexuals, some of them can be overcome with horniness to the point of not caring about the risks. I wish it didn't affect others but it does. Our taxes go up, our health insurance goes up and worst of all, we grieve for those disabled by their choice. I would feel very sad if a friend or someone in my family ruined thier lives by their actions. I hope you can understand where I am comming from.

Thanks everyone for reading my very long post. Thanks for not getting offended and thanks for thinking about my opinions/facts. Comment on all the good points I make.

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i shan't waste my time talking to you any further. in my opinion, your views are elitist and absurd beyond self-parody. let's just agree to disagree and never communicate again, i have people with compassion and human feelings i'd rather talk to.

if you're going to look down on sex as a way to bond, there are just as many people who think sex is a big deal who think i'm pretentious for the fact that i spend a lot of time talking about books with people and bond over that; pretentious or messy, which is the greater error, and who decides?

and don't you tell me i experienced platonic love and not romantic love just because i didn't get physical. you've got a lot of nerve telling people whether or not they were in love or not buddy, and i take that pretty personally. i take that as a personal attack, actually. you aren't me, and you couldn't POSSIBLY understand how i felt, since you don't know me, and aren't me, and i think deciding if someone or not was in love based on whether or not they met certain rigid, axiomatic, diagnostic criterion reminiscent of the "bases" adolescents speak of displays a frightening level of immaturity and insensitivity. being in love isn't something that can be subjected to a diagnostic test. plenty of sexual people would say that if you're asexual you aren't really in love because that would involve physical attraction and sexual desire for your partner. having someone tell you something lack that kind of hurts, and i don't think you should go posting things that are mean and hurtful. this site and these forums are intended for people who are faced with a difficult predicament to find support, not be insulted. i really don't appreciate having my feelings hurt, thanks a lot, so if you were thanking us for not getting offended before, i am personally insulted now.

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I have nothing special to add to this thread except to say that I *violently* disagree with you, but honestly I don't see what the point would be to talking about any of it. Most of my opinions have been covered already.

One thing though - if you are AT ALL interested in doing visibility work, or trying to reach a larger audience of sexuals to share your views, I highly suggest you learn to use the proper terminology for discussing it. Censoring out the word "sex" and using the term "mating" when you mean sexual intercourse gives a strong impression of..well...a middle schooler. I can understand that you're very repulsed, but you're not doing yourself a favor by refusing to even be comfortable with the correct words for what you're discussing.

It might also help you to try to develop a little empathy for the people you're trying to reach, since my reaction to reading your posts is "Well, he has no clue about the reality of my sexuality, I'm not going to listen to anything he tries to tell me about sex." (And I don't mean that to be insulting, it's just...why should I listen to someone who has no idea what he's talking about?)

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"We would engage in intelluctual converstations that exercise our minds and make us really pounder the existance of the universe. "

do you mean you'll basically talk science, or that what you'll ponder is the meaning of it all? well, for most people, relationships with other people and the love they feel for them is the meaning of life, and the highest purpose in the universe, and for many people, the mere physical pleasure of sex serves to bond them close together, so why should you hold it against them? in a lot of ways, i find the idea of people getting giddy over something as silly as how their bodies feel kind of cute. as rilke said

"To love is good, for love is hard.

Tenderness from one person to another is

perhaps the most difficult task assigned

to us- the most extreme, the final test and

examination, the work, for which

all other work is only

a preparation."

Now, that pretty much sums up my opinion on the meaning of life as well. Ideas, the world, literature, music, art, these have meaning only if they serve to connect people, at least in my opinion. What's the purpose of life? To love and be loved, that's what I feel. Love isn't something that you can subject to rational analysis, it's a feeling, it's an experience, it's barely even capable of being expressed by words. If you somehow think that knowledge is going to make you happy, well, I can't understand you in the least. I mean, I know quite a bit of mathematics, but that hasn't added anything to my life whatsoever. It's just, well, stuff, it's kind of neat, but in the end it isn't going to fill my life with meaning.

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o.k. in your point 4 that offended me i think you missed something that i would have thought was obvious. let me explain.

in the united states, not all people share the same culture, and not all cultures have the same conventions about what is considered appropriate levels of physical contact between people of different genders in different situations and times. the person i was in love with was from a culture where any physical contact between a man and a woman in public more than a handshake would have been considered indecent, and that anything more than that between a man and a woman who were not married or very close relatives would have been indecent except in private, and that anything but hugging or holding hands between a married couple would have been out of line except in the bedroom. i mean, you think people should wait till they are married to have sex; well, some cultures think you should wait to pretty much do anything until you are married. in some countries a two men and two women can walk around holding hands and people just think they are good friends; in the states they would be probably labeled a same sex couple. and you can't measure being in love or romantic versus platonic love by physical contact; it's what you feel.

i got a bit upset, but on second thought, you probably didn't think of this. sorry if i overreacted.

well, you are entitled to your opinions, just i think you show an astonishing lack of compassion for anyone and everything, and your views are hardly consistent. if sex is gross, well, way more people find the sight of blood gross than sex. should we get scientists working to find something less gross than blood to fill our veins with? i change diapers at one of my jobs and that's messy, but that's part of life. should we find ways to grow people as adults so we don't have to put up with messy children? i mean, if you're going to start saying bodily functions are gross, where do you stop? i mean, mucous is kind of gross, but you ever have a really dry nose and throat? i kind of accept my body how it is. i think most asexuals who are repulsed are repulsed in a way that is less thought out, more just that they recoil from the act or any thought of it. i mean, i can think of nothing bad about sex in and of itself, it's just i couldn't bring myself to do it. that's just, physically, closer than i want to get; i consider my private parts private, and i can't get myself to be capable of extending that privacy to mean for two people. i mean, if somehow enjoying the smell of a candle is o.k., then why not sex? i mean, the pleasure people get from the sex act activates quite a bit of brain tissue, and to them, has a meaning. what meaning is there in saying "this candle makes my house smell good?" good smells don't have a personal, social, cultural, religious or political meaning. in fact, i'd say enjoying the scent of a candle is a lower pleasure than sex, since it's less complicated. it's just some reflex instinct to like a good smell. i mean, taste is just as simple, i'd say sex is probably, properly done, quite a meaningful and very complicated pleasure, but at the same time a kind of naive and innocent one.

believe me, sexuality is one of the most complicated topics there is. trust me, i've read way more about it than any sexual person i've ever known, and i started real young. i'd recommend you some books, but you'd probably not read them since you'd have to actually read about people's sexual experiences. yeah, tell people to wait until their married, fine, but trust me, that isn't going to ensure safety. sex within a long term monogamous relationship can be some of the most dangerous sex anyone could ever have, because you aren't just risking your physical health, you're risking your heart and mind and spirit. that's why there are sex therapists. most books about sex aren't about physical techniques, they are about trying to make sure you emotionally damage your partner or destroy your relationship. nothing physical about the act seems bad to me at all, it's the emotional and psychological part of it that seems frightening. that's why so many people like casual sex, because they can avoid that; you can have sex, and if the experience is bad, the person goes away and finds somebody else, and you don't have to live with them. sex is a point of conflict between many married people who are faithful, i've read plenty of accounts about such situations. sex isn't an animal drive that's divorced from our cold, icy intellect; the psyche is not really capable of being partitioned, everything has a meaning across every spectrum of being and every context you can imagine.

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9. Animals mate only for procreation, why don't humans follow this example?

why should we follow the example of lower species? if we can enjoy the sex act in ways animals cannot, well, that's a way that maybe we're more advanced and can experience things they cannot? i mean, animals don't write books, or make movies, or fly to space, or do math, apparently they can get on quite well without all these complicated things which can cause a great deal of problems. well, they solve a lot of problems too, but take something like writing books or making rockets; i'm sure mein kampf and the V2 rocket caused a lot of damage, but writing and engineering are still great things, since they can be used for good. sex can cause problems, but it can also help to strengthen the bond between a loving couple, so if it works for people, more power to them.

basically, what kind of ideals do you think should govern life? even though you seemed to get a laugh out of the android thing, it seriously seems like you're pushing for some sort of totally mechanized world run by some sort of optimization algorithm, but what are you trying to optimize? you certainly wouldn't be optimizing happiness since you're pretty much pretending that everyone should like the same things, when in reality they do not.

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Mark from the OCD board

Just a note...

I am reading pain behind choose_abstinence's words, and this is a support site for asexuals. All asexuals.

We don't know what he has been through or why he has taken such an extremist position. It could be a means of defense. (It could even be OCD.) Anyway... I do that: I speak strongly and confidently even when I feel like crying so that I never give those opposed to me an advantage over me. There are bits and pieces about choose_abstinence's being rejected by guys who call him gay or say that he needs mental help, and he has also talked about being rejected by a woman he loved simply because he was not interested in sex with her. I am a gay sexual, but choose_abstinence's experiences sound a lot like mine.

What else has he been through? Has sexuality been rammed down his throat, causing his revulsion? Has he been belittled by sexuals, causing him to belittle them as a means of coping with powerful negative emotions? (When I first came out of the closet, I used to belittle "breeders" [heterosexuals] right and left. In my angrier moments, an unfortunate comment still slips out today.)

I also think it is clear that he came here looking for friends. He does want to talk to folks 1:1.

Of course, people who disagree with choose_abstinence should say so, and people who are offended should point out why his words are offensive. No should be babied here. I, too, find some of choose_abstinence's words offensive, and I have said so.

On my OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) board, where I do volunteer work, I don't pick and choose who I will help. Sometimes I have to swallow my pride and help right-wing Christian homophobes; their pain and OCD issues are as real as mine. Off the board I would have as litte contact as possible--in fact, I usually shun right-wing Christian homophobes--but on the board we are all people who struggle daily with OCD and need support.

That does not mean I am always letter perfect. A year and a half ago I had had it with one Bible-quoting Christian woman who did not "approve" of me, and I really ripped into her on the board. (Have you ever heard of an OCD temper? They are the stuff legends are made of... ;) ) The board's owner was not at all pleased with me and gave me a warning. After all, the board is for her, too, horrible as her opinions might be.

Maybe, if choose_abstinence finds this board a safe haven where he can talk freely and listen to how our ideas differ, he will change some of his extremist ideas. Maybe he will not. Who knows?

At any rate, as the token gay sexual on the board, I would hate it if people here rejected me for being different. choose_abstinence is clearly different.

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sorry if i seemed harsh. my apologies choose abstinence. i probably gave you the third degree.

basically, it can be very hard to understand something that you don't feel, and when i got offended at your point 4 i noticed in my post that it could have been very ambiguous, so my apologies for that one too.

o.k. you think sex is disgusting, period, and you think it should be abolished, along with many other aspects of normal human existence. you aren't the first person to think this kind of thing, and i've read all the views before, both pro, con, satirical. i have my own issues as well, and now and then something i read hits me and i get overly emotional, and i think in this thread i've been too willing to let my writing get vicious. in many ways, if i'm saying that you should take the effort to understand you, i should realize that if you're saying what you do, most people really would seem utterly incomprehensible, and perhaps we should say "listen, what you say sounds really strange, what kind of common ground can we meet at?"

i really apologize, since, more than anyone, i really let myself go on this thread.

if you find sex hard to understand, i could probably find some not very explicit articles or books that might shed some light on how people feel, or what it means to them, stuff that doesn't get very graphic and that uses language more suited to an earlier, more prudish era, but that i think would still be useful. like i said, i'm really sorry, and i think that since i have read a large amount on the subject (as you can tell from my signature line, i'm a big reader on many subjects) if i take a week or two i could probably recommend you some good sources that you would probably not find tasteless or gross, but that would give you some window into this strange behavior called sex. i'll post here or pm, but seriously, my apologies.

well, please accept my apologies. i am being sincere. i think the world i've lived in has been tolerant, perhaps too tolerant, in which we are tolerant of 99% of things but then we are viciously intolerant of the 1%, but somehow we expect them to understand us.

if you would like, i can recommend you some books though; i don't have a list in my head yet, since i have to make sure to police the content, but trust me, sex isn't just some isolated drive, it is really very complicated and affects people very deeply. i mean, my asexuality i think is incredibly complicated. i once thought of seeing a therapist but i realized that i don't think i could find one that would really get the reasons, because they are insanely complicated. if i started listing them, you'd think i was being ridiculous.

i understand if you are upset with me, and i really hope you accept my apology. i feel that, though i'm not a huge fan of abstinence only education, i can see why some do, and i really think that i could help you learn a little bit. you clearly have a passion, and i think that maybe you've missed the boat on some things, but seriously, i can get you some information you might find useful. i don't want this to sound like i'm trying to say you should change how YOU feel, just that i could recommend materials that would help you understand how OTHERS feel about sex, which, if your goal is education, might help a great deal.

well, my apologies, though i should probably stop repeating that. and thanks Mark for giving me a wake-up call that i was getting out of line.

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Nico-Nico Friendo

choose_abstinence -

I remember feeling like you once when I was younger. Though I don't think my position was QUITE as extreme.

I didn't even know that I was supposed to have a sex drive (being female) and thought the only reason females had sex with guys is because the guy persuaded her or she wanted children (something I never wanted, but I figured most girls probably do). I didn't know that sexuals often see sex as a way to bond with another person. Animals (such as bonobos) do the same thing. They will give sex as a reward or as affection.

Just as you may give someone a hug to show affection towards someone else, many people use sex in the same way. It's really hard for me to wrap my head around because I'm not that way, but it's true. So, when a sexual adult feels deprived of sex, they may feel unloved. Just as a child would feel unloved if their parents never hugged them. That's why masturbation may not be enough for many people. It's like the difference between hugging a person and hugging a stuffed animal. Which is more satistfying?

That's the only way I can understand it (sexuals can correct me if my analogies are flawed). So, even though you think sex is nasty, there are many people who feel just the opposite.

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