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A sexual person hating sexuality?


chaku

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I believe whether the concept of beauty is driven by the media or by evolution it is evil either way.

I don't think I will ever understand the value of believing another person to be worth less because of their appearance. Certainly, the KKK believed that, but so does anyone who believes ugly people don't deserve an equal opportunity to all relationships. Why would looking a certain way ever change what someone deserves as a person?

As for me, I've never been in a sexual relationship (I've had mental health problems that would have made it very un-likely someone would accept me in one even before I even formed my beliefs). I'm in a position because I have no money, no job, and am not very physically attractive that people simply do view me as less most of the time.

I'm tired of fighting my sexuality and disagreeing with it. I've been suicidal for many years now. I hate existing as an animal without morality. I would prefer if I could die at this point as it is not really worth it to continue living in this world, but I'd feel guilty about hurting my family so I'm stuck here.

Chaku: There are times when I feel like dying or wish I was dead too... in fact I was almost killed my a drunk/high/depressed hit and runner and my right leg is paralyzed and I just found out that I have temporary facial paralysis... ouch! But I like to think I have a racer's mentality... to keep on fighting even when all is down and broken.. to pick up my motorcycle and ride on it again.. while I don't have money, I am a graduate student finishing my studies so I don't know what is ahead of me..

While I find it easier for myself to be attracted towards people of all races.. I find that I enjoy moderate beauty... not too fat nor too thin means a proper or moderate diet... not too pimply nor too much powder means a balance between vainity and lack of personal hygiene.. what do you think?

I got a lot more acne than other kids when I did the exact same thing about hygiene as they did and naturally weigh less than most other guys who eat the exact same things as do so I don't agree with you on that. It seems much more like a blind justification for your tastes than a scientific truth.

I see only being attracted to health as disturbing, honestly. So we shouldn't love people that are sick? They don't deserve to be loved if they have an eating disorder or have cancer? I just don't agree with healthy people deserving more love than sick people.

My belief is those with cancer should be loved as well as those with any sickness or those of any body shape.

The reason why I hate sexuality is because it is more in line with Hitler's views than my own. Some examples would be: a certain appearance being worthwhile above all others (he prefered blond hair blue eyes) along with a hatred of weakness and desire to destroy it... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...t/disabled.html

My belief is that ill, weaker, different looking, acting, and disabled people deserve just as much love as anyone else. I think evolution is wrong, just like Hitler was.

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Jasono Kazuo
chaku wrote:

I believe whether the concept of beauty is driven by the media or by evolution it is evil either way.

I don't think I will ever understand the value of believing another person to be worth less because of their appearance. Certainly, the KKK believed that, but so does anyone who believes ugly people don't deserve an equal opportunity to all relationships. Why would looking a certain way ever change what someone deserves as a person?

As for me, I've never been in a sexual relationship (I've had mental health problems that would have made it very un-likely someone would accept me in one even before I even formed my beliefs). I'm in a position because I have no money, no job, and am not very physically attractive that people simply do view me as less most of the time.

I'm tired of fighting my sexuality and disagreeing with it. I've been suicidal for many years now. I hate existing as an animal without morality. I would prefer if I could die at this point as it is not really worth it to continue living in this world, but I'd feel guilty about hurting my family so I'm stuck here.

As you have so strikingly accurately realised chaku, whether it is the lies of the media, or the lie of evolution, the modern view on beuty/sexuality/humanity is distorted into madness.

Now, many might diss my for saying this, but I am a christian, a deciple of Jesus Christ. I belive in God, and in His word, thus I do not belive in evolution. Its a lie that despises both God and the value of human life. We are not animals, so that we should be ruled over by instincts, we are Images of God, thus our actions should be guided by goodness. (but let us not discuss the evolution further here, not to cloud the meaning of this conversation, If someone want to argue, email me.)

The picture so forcefully pressured upon us by media is downright degrading. Beuty and health? Both of these are good things by them selves, but we must never forget that our bodies are mere containers for something far greater. Our bodies are scarred by time, beuty and health detoriates away as we grow older, and perhaps suffer the concequences of our actions and the actions of others. But who we are inside are untouched by all that. Therefore our value is not in our appearance, nor in our health and motorics.

We all are dying each second as we grow older, more weaknesses surfacing constantly. Why would any of us have the right to look down on the weak, the sick or the ugly (if there even is such a thing)?

I know many people dislike someone quoting the bible, but here goes:

Isaiah 53

1. Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground: he has no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we would desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4. Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him beaten and buffeted and afflicted by God.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opens not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he beaten.

This is a prophecy concerning the messiah, And I along with many others belive it speaks of Jesus. If anyone can truly understand pain and suffering, it is He.

People look down upon the sick, the bruised and the ugly, without realizing that while despicing them, they despice not only God who made them, but also themselves, for everyone is mortal, in that we are all equal. we should never, ever belive we have right to look down upon the sick, the ugly, the poor and the beaten down. inside we are all the same.

I feel your pain chaku, for it is the same pain that tormented me troughout my youth, although I tried to deny it, and mask it away in arrogance, hatered and loathing of others. But I give you words of comfort: we are not animals, as humans, images of God, morality is our birthright.

As for sexuality, before I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was a porn addict for more than 2 years. I was burning out of lust, a slave of those primal insticts, a slave of sin, deperately desiring for any woman or girl to satisfy my debrave needs. Thank God Im still a virgin. I hated my sexuality, and in many ways I still object it. I even prayed that some time ago that God would take it away. I even felt I got an answer: Losing my sexuality would make me too inhuman. I still feel desire, I feel that burning urge to give into it. But Im no longer its slave, I can control it, restrain it. (not without failures though, im merely a human after all). Once I get married however, I can finaly release that part of me, and enjoy that part of humanity to the fullest.

I realize fully that sexuality is not evil. But it should be controlled, rather than let is control me. Ive been to that road, its tormenting.

As for your wish to die, I understand it. I too would gladly leave this fallen world behind me, and go to my Father. God knows everything. He knows that I want to leave this world. I belive He too would like to have me at his home in heaven. So why am I still here? Simply because if God hasnt taken me away from the earth, it means that I have a task to fulfill here. There is a purpouse for me to excist here. We christians belive that to take someones life, whether our own or someone elses is a sin. (Unless of course should God order us to do so, however, I havent heard of that happening since the old testament) Sin= violation of God's divine will.

As such, I have a task to fulfill here, a life to live, a destiny to play out, before I can move on. You have one too my dear friend. Everyone of us has. And thats why I urge everyone not to even consider suicide. As a rule, our eternal destiny is very much dictated by our actions and choices here upon earth. Eternal life, or eternal death. To kill someone is a deadly sin, and the price (wages) of sin is death. (If someone here has killed someone, do not despair, for Christ died for our sins, paying the price for them in blood. If you regret what you did, you can ask God to forgive, and He shall, for He has promised to forgive them who genuinly repent for their actions.)

God gave us this life, and it is up to Him, and Him alone to decide when, and how it ends. Thats what I belive, and thus I submit to my creator.

chaku, dear, I wish you the best of all. I feel your pain, for I feel it too.

Here I speak unto you, as a human to annother: God is good, seek Him, and ye shall find Him. And with Him, everything else.

"God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus told his disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Humm, this post became perhaps bit more religiously charged than I meant, next one will be probably be more "down to earth". Take this as a kinda reply+introduction+gospel.

As for "Get a work" Yeah well, I think its a good thing to support yourself, so that you can support others. dont stress it, there is time to think, there is time to work, there is time to rest, time to laugh, enjoy and cry under the sun. take it easy.

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Nico-Nico Friendo

Evolution is not evil or good, it just IS.

That's like saying comets are evil because they can crash into earth. Comets are not evil or good, they just ARE.

Just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good (or evil). Nature can harm us or benefit us.

And just because something IS, doesn't mean that's what OUGHT TO be.

For example, "Reproduction is natural and therefore good and we should all reproduce," is not a valid argument because if everyone continued to reproduce to the point that all other species were wiped off the face of the earth (and we'd have to eat each other to survive because there was no other food source left), or that we drowned in our own disease, pollution, and filth, that would not be good.

Does that make sense?

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Evolution is not evil or good, it just IS.

That's like saying comets are evil because they can crash into earth. Comets are not evil or good, they just ARE.

Just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good (or evil). Nature can harm us or benefit us.

And just because something IS, doesn't mean that's what OUGHT TO be.

For example, "Reproduction is natural and therefore good and we should all reproduce," is not a valid argument because if everyone continued to reproduce to the point that all other species were wiped off the face of the earth (and we'd have to eat each other to survive because there was no other food source left), or that we drowned in our own disease, pollution, and filth, that would not be good.

Does that make sense?

It honestly does not make sense. Evolution does not simply exist, because human beings can make the choice to embrace it or not.

A meteor crashing down has nothing to do with choice. Embracing evolution as a worthwhile way of life is a choice.

If there is someone not living a life based out of evolution, then evolution does not "simply exist" for that person.

Imagine if it started becoming natural for our species to kill our mates in order to eat them as is the case of the praying mantis. Would you do it? Would it be "simple existence" for you or would it be something else?

I wouldn't do it, myself. Because I don't accept what people tell me as existence. There is choice.

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Jasono Kazuo, I appreciate your post which provides a different viewpoint. I'm not religous myself, but I think it is good to have a moral context to judge these things by.

Without some sort of doctrine, we probably would all be animals, just like the praying mantis that murders it's partner for food.

It's important to question things like evolution. What value is coming from believing that health is the most valuable trait for a human being to have?

I have my beliefs regardless of whether or not evolution exists as people are saying.

All things can be judged to be an issue of morality, including evolution. It is theoretically possible that many murderers are an evolved species displaying traits closer to the praying mantis. But, just because it is "natural" for someone to do something does not make it right.

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Nico-Nico Friendo

I don't think you understand evolution. There are traits within humans that have been determined by evolution/natural selection (stuff that's in out genetic makeup), including the ability to LEARN.

But, ironically, because we can learn new things including NEW BEHAVIORS, we actually become less dependent on purely genetically hardwired responses and can learn to do things that are contrary to evolution. Basically, 50% of our behavior is genes, 50% of it is LEARNED. So, unlike a preying mantis, all of our behaior is not purely automatic, genetically hardwired resposes (although who knows, maybe mantises can learn a few things too, just not anywhere near the ability humans have).

Why do some people think evolution is wrong/evil? Besides, how do you know that evolution only favors certain types of people (like the 'beautiful people' in the media)? Later on, we may find that by selecting people who have only X, Y, and Z traits we will end up with a shallower gene pool (less genetic diversity) and end up making ourselves extinct?

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Nico-Nico Friendo

Oh, and imagine if Hitler had eliminated all people in the world except for blonde-haired, blue-eyed people, and all other genes (for other hair, eye, skin, etc.) and had eliminated all others he thought were weak? The narrowing down of genes in the human gene pool would likely weaken our species' survival value, not strengthen it, because evolution tends to favor genetic diversity (especially in sexually-reproducing species).

And why do you think health is wrong?

Everyone has some kind of medical condition, genetic defect, etc. no one is perfect. That's why people mix genes (when reproducing) with people who are gentically different from themselves, maybe not completely different because humans also like to have some things in common, but enough to give their offspring a better chance of survival (not that that's really a conscious decision, usually).

Say like you get migraines but you don't have a heart condition and your partner has a heart condition but doesn't get migraines, maybe some of your kids will get the genes for migraines and some will get the heart condition, but some may get neither one because they may get the genes from you that don't have the heart condition AND the genes from your partner that won't give them migraines. There's a chance for that to happen which could make some of your offspring healthier than you or your partner in those regards.

So is it wrong to have a child who is healthier than you, or is that 'unfair'/ evil(!) evolution?

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Nico-Nico Friendo
It honestly does not make sense. Evolution does not simply exist, because human beings can make the choice to embrace it or not.

That's like saying 'genetics does not exist' because humans can choose not to be determined by their genes.

A meteor crashing down has nothing to do with choice. Embracing evolution as a worthwhile way of life is a choice.

Evolution is not a 'way of life' or 'lifestyle' it is simply a biological phenomenon, like the development of an organism from a fertilized egg to an embryo.

Imagine if it started becoming natural for our species to kill our mates in order to eat them as is the case of the praying mantis. Would you do it? Would it be "simple existence" for you or would it be something else?

I don't understand your argument. "If it started becoming natural to . . ." do you mean that we would suddenly get an automatic REFLEX (like we have no choice to pull our hand away from a fire when we get burned) to eat someone after mating? If that's so, there would be no choice. But I find the scenerio not very plausible because humans are about 50% dependent on learning, and our behavior is not highly determined by genes (unlike insects and other 'lower animals' on the cognitive scale). Nature vs. nurture, keep that in mind.

I wouldn't do it, myself. Because I don't accept what people tell me as existence. There is choice.

What?! Does that mean you mean choose your own reality and ignore the existence of the things around you or what? I don't get what you were trying to say in this sentence.

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I don't think you understand evolution. There are traits within humans that have been determined by evolution/natural selection (stuff that's in out genetic makeup), including the ability to LEARN.

But, ironically, because we can learn new things including NEW BEHAVIORS, we actually become less dependent on purely genetically hardwired responses and can learn to do things that are contrary to evolution. Basically, 50% of our behavior is genes, 50% of it is LEARNED. So, unlike a preying mantis, all of our behaior is not purely automatic, genetically hardwired resposes (although who knows, maybe mantises can learn a few things too, just not anywhere near the ability humans have).

Why do some people think evolution is wrong/evil? Besides, how do you know that evolution only favors certain types of people (like the 'beautiful people' in the media)? Later on, we may find that by selecting people who have only X, Y, and Z traits we will end up with a shallower gene pool (less genetic diversity) and end up making ourselves extinct?

I see the concept of treating another person less based on their appearance as evil, whether it is done through evolution or society. Just as murdering another person is evil whether it is done through evolution or society.

My view is that some things are evil regardless of why they happen. They shouldn't happen in the first place.

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Oh, and imagine if Hitler had eliminated all people in the world except for blonde-haired, blue-eyed people, and all other genes (for other hair, eye, skin, etc.) and had eliminated all others he thought were weak? The narrowing down of genes in the human gene pool would likely weaken our species' survival value, not strengthen it, because evolution tends to favor genetic diversity (especially in sexually-reproducing species).

And why do you think health is wrong?

Everyone has some kind of medical condition, genetic defect, etc. no one is perfect. That's why people mix genes (when reproducing) with people who are gentically different from themselves, maybe not completely different because humans also like to have some things in common, but enough to give their offspring a better chance of survival (not that that's really a conscious decision, usually).

Say like you get migraines but you don't have a heart condition and your partner has a heart condition but doesn't get migraines, maybe some of your kids will get the genes for migraines and some will get the heart condition, but some may get neither one because they may get the genes from you that don't have the heart condition AND the genes from your partner that won't give them migraines. There's a chance for that to happen which could make some of your offspring healthier than you or your partner in those regards.

So is it wrong to have a child who is healthier than you, or is that 'unfair'/ evil(!) evolution?

I never said health was wrong, but I did say treating another person less because they are unhealthy is wrong.

My belief is all human beings deserve to be loved, including those that are healthy and those that are not healthy.

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It honestly does not make sense. Evolution does not simply exist, because human beings can make the choice to embrace it or not.

That's like saying 'genetics does not exist' because humans can choose not to be determined by their genes.

A meteor crashing down has nothing to do with choice. Embracing evolution as a worthwhile way of life is a choice.

Evolution is not a 'way of life' or 'lifestyle' it is simply a biological phenomenon, like the development of an organism from a fertilized egg to an embryo.

Imagine if it started becoming natural for our species to kill our mates in order to eat them as is the case of the praying mantis. Would you do it? Would it be "simple existence" for you or would it be something else?

I don't understand your argument. "If it started becoming natural to . . ." do you mean that we would suddenly get an automatic REFLEX (like we have no choice to pull our hand away from a fire when we get burned) to eat someone after mating? If that's so, there would be no choice. But I find the scenerio not very plausible because humans are about 50% dependent on learning, and our behavior is not highly determined by genes (unlike insects and other 'lower animals' on the cognitive scale). Nature vs. nurture, keep that in mind.

I wouldn't do it, myself. Because I don't accept what people tell me as existence. There is choice.

What?! Does that mean you mean choose your own reality and ignore the existence of the things around you or what? I don't get what you were trying to say in this sentence.

If a human makes a choice to act seperately from evolution they are essentially destroying the evolution within themselves by allowing it no grounds to exist. Suicide destroys evolution as an example. When one kills oneself or accepts homosexuality without reproducing, they defeat evolution.

My argument about murder is an analogy to sexuality... And urge to act in a certain way without morality. If we started to evolve in that direction, I would choose to reject evolution, would you?

I do choose my own reality and refuse to accept evolution as a valuable way to exist. If I can't win in life I will destroy it in death. Those are my beliefs as I see it as evil in the same way Hitler was because it's design is an attempt to destroy the weak instead of loving them as equals.

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Nico-Nico Friendo
If a human makes a choice to act seperately from evolution they are essentially destroying the evolution within themselves by allowing it no grounds to exist. Suicide destroys evolution as an example. When one kills oneself or accepts homosexuality without reproducing, they defeat evolution.

Evolution exists within a population, not an individual. Populations evolve, individuals do not.

My argument about murder is an analogy to sexuality... And urge to act in a certain way without morality. If we started to evolve in that direction, I would choose to reject evolution, would you?

It seems you believe that all sexuality is wrong. But if there was no sex we'd otherwise reproduce asexually (in which we'd all be clones of each other), or our species would cease to exist (unless you consider humans so evil they shouldn't even exist in the first place).

Murder and sex are not analogous concepts. Murder destroys a life, while sex can create a life.

I do choose my own reality and refuse to accept evolution as a valuable way to exist. If I can't win in life I will destroy it in death. Those are my beliefs as I see it as evil in the same way Hitler was because it's design is an attempt to destroy the weak instead of loving them as equals.

But what defines a person or organism as 'weak'? There are many strategies in which organisms use to survive. Evolution is simply about how well an organism is adapted to its particular environment. In one environment an organism may be strong, but when placed in an environment it is unsuited for it becomes weak. Evolution can be about competition (male deer fighting for females), but it can also be about cooperation (bees working to help the entire hive even if most of the individuals never reproduce). Evolution can be about quantity of life (producing as many offspring as possible and hopefully a few will survive, like salmon do) or quality of life (humans taking care of a child and teaching them skills to survive until they are old enough to live a life of their own). I just listed a few examples, but there are many more.

There are many ways to survive.

Some people have good looks, and some people have great minds, some people have a good immune system, some people are adaptable in nearly any environment and are adventurous, some people are creative and talented and can make good money, and some people are kind and nurturing and good with raising children, and so on. Beauty is not the only survival trait humans have. I think your definition of evolution as beauty & good health = the only survival value humans can have.

Besides, beauty is subjective. One person may think someone is the most beautiful person in the world and another person looking that that same person will think they are ugly or at least not very attractive to them. Most people might not want to marry a really short person but there are some people some people who are very attracted to little people (dwarfs) and would like very much to marry one.

As for suicide. I really hope you don't kill yourself. I have thought about it myself. I have been very depressed in the past. Still, I live on as best I can, thinking of possible solutions to my problems, trying to find some good in life and in people. It's not easy, but it is possible. I don't know how good I am at being a problem-solver, but I try. And with practice I think I can get better at it. I try to be understanding and not quick to judge someone or something as good or evil. I believe in making peace with myself, and the people and world around me. My goals are to be peaceful; understanding; not be quick to judge, label, and assume.

I'm not Buddhist but I think the philosophy has good ideas. I have noticed that if I become too attached and obsessed with something and it starts to make my life miserable, then it's probably time to let go and not take that thing so seriously -- because if I do, it could destroy my mental and emotional well-being as well as cause pain and frusteration to others.

If you commit suicide you will cause others pain and suffering. You who believes in loving others for their inner beauty, do you know how those people you love will feel if you destroy yourself? Do you think they will feel loved by you?

I'm not trying to pour guilt on you, I'm trying to get you to see something form a different perspective. Think about it. Why do you want to kill yourself? Is it to end your suffering? Are you sure there is no other solution? Are you sure you can no longer cope with the pain . . . or is it possible to live on, to survive, to find something good in life despite the suffering you must endure? Maybe you have strengths within yourself that you never even realized . . . have you ever searched for that?

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I just want to re-emphasize that evolution is NOT a moral force. It's a scientific theory used to describe change in a population over time. In the framework of the theory, species don't have a *goal*. They aren't evolving toward or away from anything, they just have changes in the frequency and expression of their genes.

Saying that evolution is immoral is like saying Newton's second law is immoral - it's basically nonsensical.

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Nico-Nico Friendo

Exactly my point, Bunny K.

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Hello, Chaku.

I have read this thread and it has really made me think.

I am trying to think of a way to communicate what I want to say.

Words are very limited, so I will tell you about something

that happened to me once.

I have told almost no one about this,

but I think it is worth telling you.

I will try.

There was a period of time in my life in which I was very depressed.

I could not go outside or walk on the ground because there

could be ants on it. I could step on the ants.

I could not open the lock on my school locker because it could

have ants in it. The gears could crush the ants.

I could not cook food on a pan because there could be ants on it.

Even if I looked, and double checked,

an ant could move close enough to that pan by the time I turned it on.

I could kill an ant with the heat from that pan.

I continued to go to school, but because I walked on the ground,

I could have killed an ant. I breathed water in through my nose to

punish myself. I felt that it was my responsibility to equalize the universe.

Every day I came home from school, lay down on the couch,

and cried. My mother and my family did not know what to do.

They began to send me to counseling, and a Psychologist.

My psychologist wanted me to take medication.

I didn't want to. I believed that my depression, my thoughts, were part of me,

and that taking medication would be lying to myself, and in another way, be killing myself.

My mother would not stand for me not taking medication.

She threatened to send me to a mental hospital.

I decided to take the medication instead.

I have a chronic illness, called Crons disease, which was very active back then,

in addition to my depression. I have to go through medical treatments and various medications to deal with the condition.

The symptoms contain extreme inflammation of the stomach's inner lining, including the esophagus.

Worst case, parts of the stomach must be removed.

It took a very long time, with a lot of trial and error.

One day, I realized, "Why would ants be on the ground where I could step on them?"

Other animals step on the ground all the time. Cats, zebras, even humans step on the ground. Sure, this could kill an ant,

it could kill a lot of ants. It probably does kill a lot of ants.

However, the other animals deal with it.

They can't help it, and neither can I.

It is just one of the facts of life, and I cannot change it.

There were times that I considered suicide,

but instead of carrying out that idea, I made myself a promise.

I promised myself that I would never kill myself,

no matter how much I wanted to,

or how much it seemed like the right thing at the time.

If I had killed myself, not only would I hurt my family and my friends.

There would be nothing left, and I would have given up my life.

However, I asked myself,

"Would I rather have a life of ten miserable minutes,

or would I rather not have a life at all?"

I often hear people comment,

"Man, I wish this day would be over."

I don't.

To me, a lifetime of despair is better than nothing at all.

It is better to give it a shot, and fail,

than not try, to give up.

To me, throwing everything at life,

no matter how much pain there is,

and no matter what the outcome will be,

is real beauty.

Even if I hate my entire life,

and even if at the end, I never get what I wanted,

I'd still have death to fall back on.

I'd still have the same death, even if I lived out my life.

If I killed myself, I would be giving up my free shot at something.

It's like having a free ticket to the lottery or something.

Even if you don't win, it didn't cost you anything.

It took a very long time,

but I'm not even medicated anymore.

I'm not depressed anymore either.

Hell, even if I had never been able to get off my medication for all

my efforts, I would've had zero chance to if I had commited suicide.

I am still not off my stomach medication, anti-inflammatories,

and treatments, but I'm going to try anyway.

I hope this helped you.

I still haven't found what I'm looking for,

and perhaps I never will.

Either way, I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find it.

Good luck!

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I just want to re-emphasize that evolution is NOT a moral force. It's a scientific theory used to describe change in a population over time. In the framework of the theory, species don't have a *goal*. They aren't evolving toward or away from anything, they just have changes in the frequency and expression of their genes.

Saying that evolution is immoral is like saying Newton's second law is immoral - it's basically nonsensical.

Fine, should we say natural selection instead? The concept of "superior genetics" is the moral issue I am describing.

When you say that someone is unattractive because of poor genetics and treat them differently (including refusing them the chance to have offspring) because of this it is very similar to what Hitler did with the physically and mentally less capable.

I believe people of all genetics are beautiful and the process of natural selection (which is a part of the theory of evolution, by the way) is the problem.

Looking for the most fit person and refusing to love those less fit is disgusting in my view just like treating someone less because they are mentally disabled. I believe everyone deserves love and don't believe we should insult those less capable and treat them less.

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Nico-Nico Friendo
Looking for the most fit person and refusing to love those less fit is disgusting in my view just like treating someone less because they are mentally disabled. I believe everyone deserves love and don't believe we should insult those less capable and treat them less.

But who says that the love you have for someone must be sexual in nature? There are many kinds of love. You know, someone who is mentally retarded may not understand sexual love, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be loved (and understand that love) in a non-sexual way.

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Looking for the most fit person and refusing to love those less fit is disgusting in my view just like treating someone less because they are mentally disabled. I believe everyone deserves love and don't believe we should insult those less capable and treat them less.

But who says that the love you have for someone must be sexual in nature? There are many kinds of love. You know, someone who is mentally retarded may not understand sexual love, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be loved (and understand that love) in a non-sexual way.

I believe all kind people deserve all kinds of love and the right to experience all parts of life. And I think it is insulting to assume that mentally disabled people cannot have a romantic relationship. This is exactly the kind of prejudiced beliefs I am talking about.

People look at less capable people like they should never fall in love and live life to the same extent as everyone else. It does not make any sense aside from a survival of the fittest attitude like Hitler had.

Why shouldn't mentally disabled people fall in love as well? Could you give a reason why they deserve less out of life than more mentally capable people? A reason that is not based out of a sense of superiority?

If you deserve to have sexual relationships, then why do they not?

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I just want to re-emphasize that evolution is NOT a moral force. It's a scientific theory used to describe change in a population over time. In the framework of the theory, species don't have a *goal*. They aren't evolving toward or away from anything, they just have changes in the frequency and expression of their genes.

Saying that evolution is immoral is like saying Newton's second law is immoral - it's basically nonsensical.

Fine, should we say natural selection instead? The concept of "superior genetics" is the moral issue I am describing.

When you say that someone is unattractive because of poor genetics and treat them differently (including refusing them the chance to have offspring) because of this it is very similar to what Hitler did with the physically and mentally less capable.

I believe people of all genetics are beautiful and the process of natural selection (which is a part of the theory of evolution, by the way) is the problem.

Looking for the most fit person and refusing to love those less fit is disgusting in my view just like treating someone less because they are mentally disabled. I believe everyone deserves love and don't believe we should insult those less capable and treat them less.

I sort of agree with both of you....

Evolution has nothing to do with morality, any more than any of the other natural processes have, or any more than our scientific models have if you prefer.

I think that the problem (and the reason people get so wound up about it) lies with the way that people see the model.

The whole point of evolutionary theory is there IS no "superior" genetics. Each species is adapted near-perfectly to it's own situation, and genetic variation allows for change such that via natural selection, the species as a whole (in a statistical sense) becomes better adapted, and can respond to changes in the environment.

Basically, just because the cockroach may appear icky, and it's "design" hasnt changed significantly in millions of years, doesnt mean it's not a hip, cool cockroach ready to meet the 21st century.

One of the main problems I have with Christianity is the idea of manifest destiny... by which I mean the idea that the whole world is put there to support us. I find this (incedentally, I cast no aspersions on those that do believe it) a totally arrogant view - the idea that we are in some way the "purpose" of the whole excercise is (IMO) silly.

It's also (and this is a bit of a tangent, but hey) why I dislike the idea of conservation. Yes, it is reprehensible that our greed, shortsightedness etc are ruining this planet, but at the end of the day, life will go on. We're just worried because the world may not be conveniently habitable for us.

That said, there is no justification for maligning any individuals for their genetic variations within the species - to do so is to stifle our ability as a species to adapt to changing situations.

Apologies, I rambled somewhat there.

Edit - Welcome to the Forum by the way :)

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Nico-Nico Friendo

Yeah. It's the process of natural selection that makes an organism better suited to its enviroment.

I was just thinking of something . . . Imagine a computer genius and a bushman. Some people may say the bushman is 'primitive' for not knowing how to do the things we can do in our modern, 'civilized' environment (such as driving a car or using a computer), but is that so?

What happens if you take the computer genius out of his 'habitat'?What if you were to put him out in 'The Bush' where the bushmen live? Would he still be considered a genius? Would he be able to survive without the help of the bushmen?

The computer genius's environment is very different from the bushman's environment. It is a technological world where he makes money to eat and live by programming computers or whatever; shops to buy medicine, or get food that he can freeze, refrigerate, and probably easily cook in the microwave; has a pre-manufactured place to live; sleeps on a comfortable bed with a pillow and matress raised above the ground; can get clean water out of a faucet thanks to indoor plumbing; can see in the dark using electricity; gets to where he's going by driving a car or using public transport; goes to a doctor with a knowledge of modern medicine when he's sick; etc . . .

While in the bushman's environment, he has to make things and do things that the computer genius likely has no skill in. He has to get food by hunting and foraging, so he has to know what plants are safe to eat (and make good medicine, too). He has to make tools and weapons for hunting and preparing the food. He has to build his own home (though probably with the help of others). He has to know many things about nature, such as weather patterns, stars that can help him find direction, where he can get water in such a dry environment (the Khalahari Desert, for example), and so on. Would the computer genius know these things? Probably not.

So, likelyhood of whether an organism survives or not, depends largely on its environment. Though, in humans, it mostly depends on learning to adapt, and not so much on biology.

(I think maybe what just I wrote here was a little pointless and off-topic, but I just spent a lot of time writing it, so . . . here it is. :P )

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The point I've made repeatedly in this thread is my belief that those who cannot learn to adapt deserve just as much love as those that can. That is the whole point of my thread and the reason why I believe natural selection is evil. Because the concept is based on rewarding adaptibility instead of kindness.

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