Popularity of AVEN with Sexual People

[Pramana]

I have noticed that AVEN is popular with sexual people (i.e. people who identify as non-asexual or non-asexual spectrum), with many of the most active long-term members who hold post counts in the thousands or tens of thousands self-identifying as sexual. Of course, AVEN is an open community space, but the demographics are nevertheless counterintuitive (an analogy would be a lesbian forum where many of the most active members are heterosexual men, or a transgender forum where many of the most active members are cisgender).

Some sexual people joined when they previously identified as asexual, others joined because of an asexual partner (although they may become far more involved in AVEN than their asexual partner), and yet others are both sexual and have a sexual partner. This list is non-exhaustive, but is meant to highlight some of the common reasons and differing circumstances of sexual people who become active on AVEN.

A salient question for those in mixed relationships concerns whether AVEN holds more appeal for the sexual or for the asexual partner? Secondly, since "sexual" as an identity category developed from asexual community discourse, and generally isn't used outside of asexual communities, another question is whether there is a difference between identifying as "sexual" compared to identifying as "heterosexual", "homosexual", "bisexual", etc.?

I'm starting this thread to invite input regarding these points and any other relevant points that I've missed.

[Puck]

If you want my frank perspective on this, it's four fold:

 

1) As long as AVEN chooses to let people identify as whatever they want no mater what and value more being a support to all/not controlling in any way the support that is given, you're more likely to find people of similar needs here than of similar orientations.

 

2) The site's age limit is WAY too young. People under 18 probably shouldn't be here, imho. They are WONDERFUL humans with excellent thoughts and ideas, but many between 13-18 are going through serious changes in all aspects from their sexuality to their world-views to their understanding of themselves. Thus, many come here thinking they are ace only to hit puberty later than they expected once they are already invested in the community. Which is fine for them, but I think it adds to the idea that asexuals are just sexuals who haven't figured out who they are into yet and also skews any data collected on folks who are ace (as it's really just folks who ID as ace right now). However, if the site want's to keep its charity status, it must keep it's age minimum at 13, so it's just gonna be a thing that happens.

 

3) I agree that sometimes it does seem to hold more interest for some of the sexuals in a so called mixed relationship. I don't think we have any data about how many couples here are mixed and, in those couples, which person is more invested. However, I think it's the reality that sexuals need serious support if they find themselves in a relationship where they didn't realize sex would be such a challenge to obtain (if it can be had at all). Some of the support they seek is showing anger at aces and attempting to blame them. Some people seek validation for the energy they put into continuing their relationship regardless of their intense emotional and physical struggles. It could be anything, but this is the only place many feel they can get any sort of support as it's the only place where there seems to be others who understand the situation.

 

4) For a site about asexuality, we sure talk about a lot of stuff that isn't ace-related. And there is no barrier to entry for that stuff so people who just like the banter are gonna just kind of hang around. Whether it's people who just like an argument or folks who just enjoy hanging out in a chat room that is actually some-what active.

[Lichley]

@Puck I have to disagree about the age thing. It's less about age and more about a person's level of maturity and their progress through the stages of puberty. Like, what about 17 year olds. Puberty is pretty much done, and there was nothing. Do they really have to wait a year? If you can come out as gay at 14 then surely by late puberty you should know something is up. I get the whole late bloomers arguement, but it's very unlikely that you'll suddenly gain a sexuality once you turn 18+. It will just encourage people in need to lie about their age to get advice. It's better to be open to people with questions, and have them either stay on as ace or continue to support the community, than to deny them access and have them go elsewhere to be misinformed. 

[Snao Cone]

45 minutes ago, Pramana said:

Secondly, since "sexual" as an identity category developed from asexual community discourse, and generally isn't used outside of asexual communities, another question is whether there is a difference between identifying as "sexual" compared to identifying as "heterosexual", "homosexual", "bisexual", etc.

I think there are a lot of different ways we modify our identification depending on the audience. I personally don't think identifying as a more specific label has much value outside of asexual spaces or similar environments where the details are placed under special scrutiny. There isn't as much reason for a gay person to specify that they're homosexual when in an asexual environment as there is when they're in the predominantly heterosexual public world. 

 

(I will respond to more later as it's time for me to slide on a dinosaur while shouting "YABBA DABBA DOOOO!")

[Pramana]

Just now, Snao Cone said:

(I will respond to more later as it's time for me to slide on a dinosaur while shouting "YABBA DANNA DOOOO!")

Have fun, I guess!

[michaeld]

Personally I'm glad we allow in younger folks. The teenage years is where many people are questioning their sexuality, and providing a friendly forum for anyone going through this is one of AVEN's main purposes. To me that trumps any concern over giving an impression of asexuality as just a phase. It's true that many, especially younger, members decide that asexuality doesn't fit them, but in that case hopefully we'll still have an ally, and one more person in the world who knows about and accepts asexuality.

[Philip027]

Quote

2) The site's age limit is WAY too young. People under 18 probably shouldn't be here, imho. They are WONDERFUL humans with excellent thoughts and ideas, but many between 13-18 are going through serious changes in all aspects from their sexuality to their world-views to their understanding of themselves. Thus, many come here thinking they are ace only to hit puberty later than they expected once they are already invested in the community. Which is fine for them, but I think it adds to the idea that asexuals are just sexuals who haven't figured out who they are into yet and also skews any data collected on folks who are ace (as it's really just folks who ID as ace right now). However, if the site want's to keep its charity status, it must keep it's age minimum at 13, so it's just gonna be a thing that happens.

I sure wish I was aware of this place that early, it would have helped get me through HS feeling slightly less like a total alien.

[Puck]

1 hour ago, Lichley said:

@Puck I have to disagree about the age thing. It's less about age and more about a person's level of maturity and their progress through the stages of puberty. Like, what about 17 year olds. Puberty is pretty much done, and there was nothing. Do they really have to wait a year? If you can come out as gay at 14 then surely by late puberty you should know something is up. I get the whole late bloomers arguement, but it's very unlikely that you'll suddenly gain a sexuality once you turn 18+. It will just encourage people in need to lie about their age to get advice. It's better to be open to people with questions, and have them either stay on as ace or continue to support the community, than to deny them access and have them go elsewhere to be misinformed. 

I agree that those under 18 should have access to information and it would be amazing if kind, well-informed supporters could answer their questions. But there are MANY conversations on this site that are not appropriate for people under 18 and I sometimes wonder if the site may ever find legal issues because you get your random internet stranger explaining to someone under 18 how to masturbate (I don't know the age of the user, but as the ex-mod of TGA and TMI, tips on that topic have been given many times on this site. And yes, obviously teens masturbate. But there is some blurred line in a stranger over 18 teaching someone under 18 how to do it)

 

I agree that there are many wonderfully mature people under 18, and see your point that it feels like 17 and 18 is splitting hairs. But 18 is where the law sets the line (at least, in the country where the servers for this site are and thus the laws the site must follow) and so I think it would be wise for AVEN to follow that line. Hell, make an age-restricted forum for the TMI stuff and let the teens have their own play-ground where it's  PG-13 and not R.

[Prufrock, but like, worse]

How horrible for teens to learn from talking to adults instead of from porn.

[Chimeric]

10 minutes ago, J. Alfred Prufrock said:

How horrible for teens to learn from talking to adults instead of from porn.

No one is saying this. Puck has reiterated the legal ramifications multiple times.

[ThaHoward]

AVEN would lose half its userbase then.

 

And when was it illegal for people under 18 to participate in such conversations? It never was (except for in the 1800s) 13 is the legal age for a reason, not by coincidence. AVEN is not a porn site nor a dating site. By US laws it is not 18+ for the content.

[Prufrock, but like, worse]

5 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

No one is saying this. Puck has reiterated the legal ramifications multiple times.

Proof that the law is ridiculous and lacking in nuance, then.

 

I am not 100% certain of the laws in question, but considering how woefully misinformed so many teens are about sex and orientation, we are doing a good deed by giving them a forum to be better informed, and any law against that ought to be torn down (and the vile legislators responsible made to suffer). If you just plead for the law to change, people invested in public ignorance will scaremonger against your position ("enabling pedophiles" or whatever). You have to prove that your way is better than the legal way. Besides, Puck hasn't explained what exactly AVEN would be held responsible for in the situation described above, or more generally, except "a gray area."

 

You'd get sketchy content with anything that allows you to post arbitrary text, and moderation can only react so fast (and by the time they do, the damage has already been done). Maybe better rules about what subject matter is allowed or where it is allowed or how certain members are treated are in order, which is more or less in line with Puck's "teen playground" suggestion (If you're going to bar teens from certain areas I'd prefer those areas be the minority rather than everywhere except a certain forum, but this is probably my "nobody trusted me with anything as a teen and now I can scarcely take responsibility for anything" talking.)

 

In any case, people will just lie about their age to access all areas just like they do everywhere else on the Internet, and there's really no way to stop that. So I guess it doesn't matter what you do.

[Snao Cone]

I've had a lot of great and helpful conversations about sex/arousal/the body in general on AVEN, because much of the pretense is gone. There is no competition for who gets more sex. There's no augmentation going on to get people more interested in sex with you. Sexual people on AVEN bring their experiences with them, which is very helpful for educating people who haven't had sex and don't particularly want to. I would hope that AVEN allows sexual people to be more honest about their experiences, without worrying that it's not as impressive as the rest of the crowd.

 

I think it's very beneficial for people who are questioning if they're asexual, especially younger folks who don't have a lot of life experience under their belts, to know more realistic things about sex and their bodies. I think that will help them determine exactly who they are and exactly where they lie in the a/sexual sense. I'm sure that many members here who are sexual started out that way, and they benefited from these learning experiences and now they want to provide them to others. It's not that they're trying to stop people from identifying as asexual - they just want to promote a solid foundation of understanding, and to help individual people on a very significant issue of our lives and identities.

[LeChat]

Some schools start teaching sex ed at a young age; I had it in fifth grade. Scarleteen has existed for many years; it's a sex ed website for teens, with message boards and a question and answer advice column, where teen and young adults ask for sexual and dating advice from the mods, who are older, middle-aged women. It hasn't been shut down, yet, so I guess it's okay.

 

2 hours ago, Puck said:

...However, I think it's the reality that sexuals need serious support if they find themselves in a relationship where they didn't realize sex would be such a challenge to obtain (if it can be had at all). Some of the support they seek is showing anger at aces and attempting to blame them....

Back on topic, sexuals who come on here, just to criticize and complain about aces' personal experiences of having to do with being ace, just because they're frustrated or angry at their asexual spouse, women they've dated, or at women in general, feels a lot more damaging to me, than young aces who are looking for support. Because then that sets a precedent that sexuals are allowed to complain and criticize asexuals for their ace experiences; it'd be like a heterosexual going on a gay forum and complaining to all of the homosexuals there that they don't agree with their thoughts and experiences of being homosexual, when of course they can't relate to their experiences: that's because they're heterosexual and didn't grow up feeling the same way as asexuals or homosexuals.

 

Sexual people with asexual spouses can choose to get help from therapists, rather than taking their frustration about their asexual spouse out on other asexuals on ace forums.

[WinterWanderer]

@Snao Cone I was going to express the same thoughts, but you've done it far more eloquently. 

 

I want to say in particular that I don't think it's a bad thing if sexuals make up a large portion of our user base. I think it actually helps for multiple perspectives to be voiced. Their perspectives on sex and sexual relationships are just as valid as aces'. And their being here doesn't keep aces from sharing our own ideas and supporting each other. I've been thankful for the input of sexual people here.

[Puck]

3 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Some schools start teaching sex ed at a young age; I had it in fifth grade. Scarleteen has existed for many years; it's a sex ed website for teens, with message boards and a question and answer advice column, where teen and young adults ask for sexual and dating advice from the mods, who are older, middle-aged women.

 

Yes, that's the kind of online space I'm very pro teens learn from. I just meant that I don't think AVEN provides that kind of a space and the lack of proper support might lead some minors into situations that are not at all ideal at most and near predatory at best. NOT SAYING this happens on the reg, just my frank option.

 

Sorry for derailing the topic. I really only meant to bring up the young-ins because I've met several sexuals who joined the site in their younger years and now don't identify as ace but stick around for the community thus upping the amount of sexuals on this site, as is the topic of this thread. I should have saved my opinion on my personal moral on that for another thread, my bad.

 

6 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Back on topic, sexuals who come on here, just to criticize and complain about aces' personal experiences of having to do with being ace, just because they're frustrated or angry at their asexual spouse, women they've dated, or at women in general, feels a lot more damaging to me, than young aces who are looking for support. 

Eh, I don't think anyone was talking about it being damaging at the top, just trying to talk about why there are sexuals here. And not all reasons are rainbow and butterfly filled ones, as you seem to have picked up on, but it does indeed give a reason as OP asked for

[Chimeric]

As someone who doesn't identify as ace, but whose partner does, there has been endless benefit in learning more about the asexual perspective. More than once, topics on this site have served as jumping-off points for really great conversations between me and my partner; I'm forever grateful for that.

 

I do agree that Sexual Partners subforum is a mixed bag of legitimate support, harmless complaining, and people looking for justification for harmful, poor life choices (in my humble opinion =) ). But, life is all about balance; I guess we can't expect to have the flowers without the crap.

 

There's no way to police this, but it's helpful for me, anyway, to remember that there are plenty of places for me to go to vent my opinion or discus things with a sexual perspective. At this point, there are probably close to as many LGBT+ community outlets available. But asexuals bring up the rear by far, and those of us who don't strictly fall under this umbrella ought to have the decency to remember that while our perspective and our opinion is valid, this place belongs to asexuals.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[TheLastOfSheila]

38 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

I only really care that people who post here know what Asexuality is and that the general "tone" of the forum isn't focused around sex like the rest of the world is.

I wonder sometimes do people here really know what Asexuality is?  I mean, if the dogma set down by AVEN is that anyone can declare oneself as asexual, then is there really any set criteria on what asexuality really is?  Lately I find myself not sure what asexuality means, and there is a lot more sex focused talk here than I thought there would be.

[Puck]

On 1/5/2018 at 7:11 PM, TheLastOfSheila said:

I wonder sometimes do people here really know what Asexuality is?  I mean, if the dogma set down by AVEN is that anyone can declare oneself as asexual, then is there really any set criteria on what asexuality really is?  Lately I find myself not sure what asexuality means, and there is a lot more sex focused talk here than I thought there would be.

That is an argument that many have struggled with on this site  It is the biggest asexuality organization and when people ask for a definition it kind of shrugs and offers feable explanations.

 

To be clear, I think this site does great good for asexuality and many people. But I have found the best asexuality discussions I have had are with the people I've met on AVEN but talked with off-site.

 

AVEN doesn't want to be in the business of defining individuals. It doesn't want to be in the business of telling people they can or can't find support on it's site. It wants to be a space where people can try things and explore themselves. I think that is a noble goal but I do personally wish there was another organization that was less afraid to strike lines and really focus on education without fear of harming emotions. AVEN can always exist to assist with the latter, but I would just like to see other strong voices stand up to give other kind of support that AVEN can't give because of what it's Board of Directors want it to be

[TheAP]

Wait, I don't understand. How can you say that AVEN wants or doesn't want anything? It's a large community, and not a hive mind. And what kind of education would you like to see? There's never going to be one objectively true set of standards for asexuality.

 

[Chimeric]

16 minutes ago, TheAP said:

Wait, I don't understand. How can you say that AVEN wants or doesn't want anything? It's a large community, and not a hive mind. And what kind of education would you like to see? There's never going to be one objectively true set of standards for asexuality.

 

My understanding is that AVEN has forums that host a large community, but exists also as an entity (legal and otherwise) beyond those forums. As a standalone entity, no doubt it has a defined, specific mission and vision... and Puck alludes to a Board of Directors that help define those things.

[Puck]

13 hours ago, TheAP said:

Wait, I don't understand. How can you say that AVEN wants or doesn't want anything? It's a large community, and not a hive mind. And what kind of education would you like to see? There's never going to be one objectively true set of standards for asexuality.

 

I'm not speaking of the community, rather the leadership's choices. The BoD have shown huge support to the idea that anyone can use the asexual label if they so choose. I disagree with that as I think it A) invalidates and confuses everyone and B) puts more importance in being able to have a specific label than actually learning to understand what one wants/who they are.

 

Due to this way of thinking, all staff under BoD has to align itself with this idea, including PT which I believe is the most important arm of our site. There are far more people who come in the site and read the FAQs or other resources than join the forums. The FAQs are lacking in updated info and chooses to be the more vague and open to interpretation type of info than actually current and supportive material. This is not the communities choice or "fault" (put in quotes because I don't mean this to be condemning, I mean it to show where I differ in thinking) rather it is an ideology that the BoD had put forward. And, to be super clear again, I support and respect our BoD emensly and am endlessly greatful for the community and resources that have been given to me thanks to their support and leadership. I just differ in certain views.

 

Ideal education, in my eyes and said unfairly broadly and without solution in order to be brief, would include info obviously for asexuals as well as those around them who are affected by the orientation. I would love to see more resources for spouses who's significant others learned of their orientation after the relationship was extremely well established. I would love to see resources aimed exactly at teens that would explain sexuality as a whole for those who's schools or those around them failed to teach them. Things like explaining how to think about sexuality as a whole, how the label isn't what's important but learning what they need and how to find a partner that will meet their needs or how to live a life wherein they never have a partner (for the aro folks). I also, and this is incredibly challenging but we are speaking in ideals, would love to include more resources in terms of mental health needs wherein things like therapists and charities that are familiar with and in support of asexuality.

 

There is a fantastic LGBT community center near me and I've done research in their resources. They have things aimed at teens and young people and all walks of life. Things like, LGB folks over around 60 are more likely to be without a life partner and are also more likely to be suffering from HIV or AIDS and so in need of more medica care. When they saw that, they responded by creating a free service where volunteers pick up LGB individuals and bring them to to their medical centers because they are less likely to have people in their life that can just drive them to their needs.

 

AVEN is a website and can't bring people to medical centers, obviously. But what I wanted to get at is that that center looked at what their community needed and asked themselves how to meet that need. AVEN can look at what the common needs are if the community and try to met them, instead of expecting it's community to do that for them.

 

One idea/example: What if, say, some of our senior members shared tips in how to support a questioning person? What if we developed a common line of dialogue that supported them and answered common questions in a clear and helpful manner? Things like that could be done.

 

Instead, the lack of wanting to define things muzzles a large part of the help we can give. Not wanting to choose a side leads to the definition debates in newbie threads and then no AVEN staff or other resource exists that steps in to explain the ideology that it supports. Therefore the fights won't stop and you get people like TheLastoftheShiela who feel more confused and unsure than supported. Or perhaps I am totally wrong and there is a way to support people without a definition. If there is, it is not being done as the debates are common and plenty feel they don't get the support they hoped for on the site.

 

Sorry, rant is long and unorganized that is thanks to being in my phone, but I hope that makes some of my thoughts clear.

 

And again, AVEN is great and I do appreciate the site. It's just not my ideal.

[Guest]

Hi!  I may be one of those people you're talking about.

 

So here's what happened.  I identified as grey for a really long time.  Then I realized I wasn't.  I now identify as sexual and I have a boyfriend who identifies as sexual.  I stick around here because there's cake and I can offer a different perspective sometimes.

 

Also I have issues that AVEN helped me with (e.g. coming to terms with being an aspie (this was one of the first places where there was a decent sized group of us and a decent sized group of neurotypicals and nobody really cared either way), some sexual issues, kinks, etc.).  And I like talking about sex in a non-sexual way without having to add a disclaimer and that happens here too.  Also I made friends here and I still talk to some of the people I've met since I first joined so...I got that too.

 

I don't think there's any use for any definition debate or anything like that.  At the end of the day I stuck around because I liked the people.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, michaeld said:

Personally I'm glad we allow in younger folks. The teenage years is where many people are questioning their sexuality, and providing a friendly forum for anyone going through this is one of AVEN's main purposes. To me that trumps any concern over giving an impression of asexuality as just a phase. It's true that many, especially younger, members decide that asexuality doesn't fit them, but in that case hopefully we'll still have an ally, and one more person in the world who knows about and accepts asexuality.

 

At the risk of double posting I agree.  I also like to say that orientation (all orientation) is potentially temporary.  But that's okay.  I identify as a pansexual ciswoman today but I might not tomorrow and that's fine.  But it doesn't change who I am now.  If a person thinks the label fits them in that moment then they're right.  If that label changes then...cool beans, that happens.  And if it is just a phase then does it really matter anyway?

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Puck said:

Ideal education, in my eyes and said unfairly broadly and without solution in order to be brief, would include info obviously for asexuals as well as those around them who are affected by the orientation. I would love to see more resources for spouses who's significant others learned of their orientation after the relationship was extremely well established. I would love to see resources aimed exactly at teens that would explain sexuality as a whole for those who's schools or those around them failed to teach them. Things like explaining how to think about sexuality as a whole, how the label isn't what's important but learning what they need and how to find a partner that will meet their needs or how to live a life wherein they never have a partner (for the aro folks). I also, and this is incredibly challenging but we are speaking in ideals, would love to include more resources in terms of mental health needs wherein things like therapists and charities that are familiar with and in support of asexuality.

Dammit I'm triple posting but this is one of those things where you need to be the change that you want to see.  I wanted to see resources for people who were considering suicide and self-harm and I made it.  If you want to make this, I am more than happy to help out (I know where to start for some of these things).

 

The last one you mentioned we actually are working on in one of the sekrit volunteer forums (I started this project so I guess it's my news to breach).  The problem is there aren't many of these and I try to stay away from specific names of therapists because I don't want to get the site in trouble :/

[Puck]

Just now, Kisa the Kit Kat said:

Dammit I'm triple posting but this is one of those things where you need to be the change that you want to see.  I wanted to see resources for people who were considering suicide and self-harm and I made it.  If you want to make this, I am more than happy to help out (I know where to start for some of these things).

 

The last one you mentioned we actually are working on in one of the sekrit project forums (I started this project so I guess it's my news to breach).  The problem is there aren't many of these and I try to stay away from specific names of therapists because I don't want to get the site in trouble :/

Oh,  fully agree with that which is why I said I was saying it unfairly, broadly, and without solution. The reality is though that when I say "the community is muzzled" I mean that I feel muzzled. I can't support an ideology that has never been explained to me and it means I struggle to know how to make resources that the site would support.

[Snao Cone]

[secretly takes down notes]

[Puck]

34 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

[secretly takes down notes]

Good thing it's secret. I heard the test is gonna be no notes so we don't want the teacher to catch us trying to cheat 

[Skycaptain]

Think this is straying into a different topic. If folk want to start a "should the minimum age for joining AVEN thread" please feel free to do so. 

 

So far as the popularity of AVEN amongst those who don't identify as asexuals go, I'd like to think they enjoy the sense of community and friendship here. People join, whether because at the time they either identified as, or wondered if they were, asexual, have family and friends who are asexual, and just like it here and stay.