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QueenOfTheRats

Trans people and heteroromantic asexuals?

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QueenOfTheRats

Do you think a hetero romantic relationship between trans and cis asexuals can work out?

 

What are the problems that might arise in this type of relationship?

 

If cis, have you dated an asexual trans person?

 

If trans, what would you like cis asexuals to know about dating you?

 

Trans girls/guys/non binary people welcome to comment,

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QueenOfTheRats

As far as OP is concerned, I would really like a hetero-normative relationship, though there are not many cis asexual men. Trans people are not usually socialized as their preferred gender, so hetero-normativity might not come easily. Am I barking up the wrong tree you think?

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InquisitivePhilosopher
36 minutes ago, QueenOfTheRats said:

...Trans people are not usually socialized as their preferred gender, so hetero-normativity might not come easily. Am I barking up the wrong tree you think?

I've never heard of this, before. Trans people are surrounded by cis people of "their preferred gender" all the time, from their parents, families, and at young ages at school, work, internet forums, etc. and develop friendships and romantic relationships with cis people.

 

For example, in her book, trans youth Jazz Jennings said that she joined soccer teams with other cis girls, growing up, and, like other cis youth, had birthday parties, inviting her cis classmates and friends. Trans Youtubers have said they've either dated, or are currently in relationships with other cis people, and have said that other cis people of their preferred gender didn't realize they were trans, that they thought they were cis.

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Nowhere Girl

Why only heteroromantic? I understand it as an issue of accepting a trans person as her preferred gender. A friend of mine is a heterosexual trans woman and she accepts that as long as she has a penis (she intends to have a surgery, but this requires money and obviously can't be organized on a day to day basis), this may be off-putting to some men. In asexual relationships this problem should, at least in theory, disappear, since the couple wouldn't intend to have sex anyway.

Precisely she has asked me if I could be in a relationship with a trans woman and I think that: yes, sure. In sex-free relationships what matters most is personality, not the body and its tricky parts.

However, I also understand that such relationships can be hard to navigate. I know a couple of a stone butch and a bisexual trans woman (who is quite much older and also has a disability after having undergone a stroke) and it's a difficult relationship. Very prone to tensions because of the feeling of being dependent on the other, but also because of both sides' gender anxieties...

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Santa's Little Elf

I can't speak for all trans and nonbinary folks but i don't think they'd like to be put in boxes when it comes to a relationship, they are just looking for love with someone they're compatible with just like everyone else does.

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Moxie84

Why do you want a heteronormative relationship? I'm just curios

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Mezzo Forte

1) isn't heteronormativity seen as a bad thing? I think it applies more to societal pressures than the inner context of a romantic relationship.

 

2) Straight trans people are straight and they therefore enter straight relationships. How is that not heteronormative? Even if you saw it as less heteronormative because the relationship isn't technically cisnormative, then it's about as nonheteronormative as entering a straight asexual relationship anyways.

 

3) Everybody's socialization differs, and everyone's reaction to that socialization differs. Trans men are not going to inherently act more effeminate than cis men, nor vice-versa. Trans women are not going to inherently be more masculine than cis women, nor vice-versa. Some trans people will actually overcompensate and act more masculine/feminine than they actually are, especially if they're not cis-passing. Heck, I'd argue that nobody's socialization is fully binary, and my upbringing was actually rather gender-neutral in many significant ways.

 

4) Please know that Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists often use "socialization" as a way to deny womanhood to trans women and manhood to trans men, so seeing someone invoke socialization like that can really rub some of us the wrong way.

 

5) Straight trans men often have some of the best success dating compared to other trans people, especially those of us who take testosterone and are cis-passing. I've seen so many successful relationships between straight trans men and straight cis women that it's almost banal. Heck, one of my friends just got engaged to his girlfriend, and they seem to be doing great. I don't see how both people being asexual would change anything. If anything, the sexual component is sadly the biggest snag for trans people in the dating world, so removing that component could actually make things easier. In an ace relationship, the only thing that'd be different is that the cis partner needs to be sensitive and observant to the trans partner's dysphoria, but that's just another layer of the same kind of communication that makes for a successful relationship anyways.

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butterflydreams
37 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

1) isn't heteronormativity seen as a bad thing? I think it applies more to societal pressures than the inner context of a romantic relationship.

I could see why some people value it though. Heteronormativity is just...statistically normal. That makes it neither good or bad, it just...is.

 

39 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

2) Straight trans people are straight and they therefore enter straight relationships. How is that not heteronormative? Even if you saw it as less heteronormative because the relationship isn't technically cisnormative, then it's about as nonheteronormative as entering a straight asexual relationship anyways.

Agreed. I often say I don’t feel like I belong in non-heteronormative spaces because I mostly feel like a straight woman. My bisexual feelings aren’t particularly strong.

 

41 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

5) Straight trans men often have some of the best success dating compared to other trans people, especially those of us who take testosterone and are cis-passing

Thank you for acknowledging this. I’ve anecdotally seen this myself. 

 

44 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

4) Please know that Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists often use "socialization" as a way to deny womanhood to trans women and manhood to trans men, so seeing someone invoke socialization like that can really rub some of us the wrong way.

Yeah, this definitely. I was socialized as a woman, because I am a woman. Saying I was socialized as a male is just silly. Especially when I was young, and other kids weren’t so hung up on gender yet, my friends were girls. I identified with them strongly and hung out with them. Often I was the only “boy” present. I even got in trouble at school as a girl for violating a social norm regarding friendships. 

 

When people talk about socialization, they also never seem to consider what it’s like to be pressured to be socialized as male when you aren’t. Yeah, good luck with that. It didn’t work on me, but it does hurt.

 

As for the OP, of course a relationship between someone who’s trans and a cis asexual can work out. Binary trans people are just men and women anyway. Men and women can have relationships with cis asexuals just fine. Like Mezzo said though, any relationship with a trans person needs to be aware of the dysphoria element. As long as that’s respected, I think it would work out fine.

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Starbogen
2 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

Yeah, this definitely. I was socialized as a woman, because I am a woman. Saying I was socialized as a male is just silly. Especially when I was young, and other kids weren’t so hung up on gender yet, my friends were girls. I identified with them strongly and hung out with them. Often I was the only “boy” present. I even got in trouble at school as a girl for violating a social norm regarding friendships. 

I don't know about this.. Like I can kind of get why people feel this way but I personally don't. I feel like I was definitely "socialized as female" meaning that a lot of things about the way I was raised and the way I was treated were aimed at making sure I turned out to be "a well adjusted girl" because I was raised under the assumption that I was a "girl". Like yeah, it turned out I'm not a girl and there were a lot of things about my childhood that were super neutral and not typically feminine, and it's been clear all my life that I rejected that female socialization, but in my opinion it still existed and it still had a noticeable impact in who I am and how I behave. I think when people say "socialized as..." they just mean that the socialization they were directly and intentionally given was the one typically given to people of their birth sex, not that they were the gender of their birth sex or of the kind of socialization they were given.

But those are just my thoughts and my experience, I don't know if this makes sense.

And obviously someone's childhood experiences and socialization doesn't make them any more or less their gender but I think it does have some sort of impact somewhere, if not on behavior then in some way the person sees things from a different perspective even if it's only temporarily. 

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Mezzo Forte
1 hour ago, butterflydreams said:

I could see why some people value it though. Heteronormativity is just...statistically normal. That makes it neither good or bad, it just...is.

I guess I always read heteronormativity as the pressure to meet certain societal ideals rather than the actual process of meeting those ideals. I guess the terminology has a way of mostly appearing in spaces where the people have been disadvantaged by heteronormativity in some way, so the connotation becomes inherently negative. Definitely can't knock people for wanting gender-conforming straight relationships though.

 

1 hour ago, butterflydreams said:

Thank you for acknowledging this. I’ve anecdotally seen this myself.

It's frankly hard not to notice at this point. While I sometimes am taken aback by the blanket "cis men suck" attitudes I find online, I've heard more than enough horror stories to know that cis men are on average the least willing demographic to date trans people. I feel like trans women see the worst of it because straight cis guys are least likely to be knowledgeable/understanding about queer or trans issues, but from what I've heard from gay trans men, I'm not surprised that most of them just end up dating fellow trans guys instead of cis men. These issues all come from -quite frankly- phallocentric attitudes that I find quite tiring. >.<

 

The one thing that ever has me concerned for straight trans men is if they end up dating lesbian women, particularly lesbian women who consider their orientation a significant part of their identity. I've just seen too many of those relationships end terribly and particularly fuck up the trans guy in the relationship, especially if that partner stands in the way of transition.

 

1 hour ago, butterflydreams said:

When people talk about socialization, they also never seem to consider what it’s like to be pressured to be socialized as male when you aren’t. Yeah, good luck with that. It didn’t work on me, but it does hurt.

^Exactly. Trying to socialize a girl as if she were male is going to have a very different impact than trying to socialize a boy as if he were male. Plus, a lot of cis people don't exactly line up perfectly with their socialization either, so why assume that trans people will perfectly line up with the socialization of a gender they never identified as in the first place?

 

Heck, I don't even think the most feminine parts of me are rooted in feminine socialization. For example, most the men in my family are actually more passive than the women, so if anything, I should be more aggressive than my socialization led me to be. My twin sister and I basically had the same socialization, and she's far more aggressive than I am. I apparently don't even come off quite as feminine as I think I do either. Guess the takeaway is that everyone handles socialization differently, and experiencing socialization of the wrong gender is going to add that many more layers to the response.

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borkfork
10 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

I guess I always read heteronormativity as the pressure to meet certain societal ideals rather than the actual process of meeting those ideals. I guess the terminology has a way of mostly appearing in spaces where the people have been disadvantaged by heteronormativity in some way, so the connotation becomes inherently negative. Definitely can't knock people for wanting gender-conforming straight relationships though.

It's hard not to read some hostility when people ask things like "but why would you want that?" for us hetero people.

 

When someone self corrects to say "partner" instead of boyfriend I give them credit for trying to do better. I think we could ask the same question of homoromantic aces and how they feel about trans partners since the binary is still implied.

 

3 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

Yeah, this definitely. I was socialized as a woman, because I am a woman. Saying I was socialized as a male is just silly. Especially when I was young, and other kids weren’t so hung up on gender yet, my friends were girls. I identified with them strongly and hung out with them. Often I was the only “boy” present. I even got in trouble at school as a girl for violating a social norm regarding friendships. 

Everyone seems to be more hung up on gender than they were 20-30 years ago. If you were a girl who hung out with boys or vice versa no one read anything into it. You were just who you were. Kids are more fixated with "that's a boy thing" or "that's for girls." It's depressing seeing that freedom taken away from them. I'm sorry that you got in trouble basically for having friends. :( 

 

 

———

 

I don't think you're going to get an honest answer from a cis person who prefers other cis people exclusively on this forum. No one wants to be attacked.

 

 

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Calligraphette_Coe
11 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said:

 

However, I also understand that such relationships can be hard to navigate. I know a couple of a stone butch and a bisexual trans woman (who is quite much older and also has a disability after having undergone a stroke) and it's a difficult relationship. Very prone to tensions because of the feeling of being dependent on the other, but also because of both sides' gender anxieties...

^ This.

 

I know how this goes SOOO well, and wisht I didn't.  Somewhere, despite all the unconditional love protestations, Evolutionary Psychology eventually gets a toe hold and leverages it's way into being the wedge that drives the relationshipees apart.

 

Sure, it's not impossible, but it IS not for the faint of heart. And there has to be a LOT of give-and-take: think Cole Porter and Linda Lee Thomas. Google it, there's one for the ages. But it wasn't without its problems..... but then there aren't heteronormative LTRs without them, either.

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butterflydreams
2 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

I've heard more than enough horror stories to know that cis men are on average the least willing demographic to date trans people

The only thing more demoralizing than this is that trans guys don't seem to be much more willing. At least, not in my experience. God, have I mentioned before how much being trans sucks?

 

2 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

The one thing that ever has me concerned for straight trans men is if they end up dating lesbian women, particularly lesbian women who consider their orientation a significant part of their identity. I've just seen too many of those relationships end terribly and particularly fuck up the trans guy in the relationship, especially if that partner stands in the way of transition.

I've seen this too. It doesn't particularly surprise me because rates of IPV among lesbians aren't exactly low. It's pretty gross, for sure.

 

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Mezzo Forte
5 hours ago, borkfork said:

It's hard not to read some hostility when people ask things like "but why would you want that?" for us hetero people.

 

When someone self corrects to say "partner" instead of boyfriend I give them credit for trying to do better. I think we could ask the same question of homoromantic aces and how they feel about trans partners since the binary is still implied.

My apologies if I sounded aggressive at all. When I hear "heteronormative," my brain goes to "straight, but in such a way that tells everyone else that they should be straight too," so I may have overreacted in my first post. I guess I'm getting caught up on semantics, where the OP likely used heteronormative as a term for a gender-conforming straight relationship.

 

I'm not sure I understand what question you're asking of homoromantic aces, but I could see the general topics of this thread being relevant to ask as well since this is really about mono-romantic orientations and how trans people factor into that equation.

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borkfork
2 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

My apologies if I sounded aggressive at all. When I hear "heteronormative," my brain goes to "straight, but in such a way that tells everyone else that they should be straight too," so I may have overreacted in my first post. I guess I'm getting caught up on semantics, where the OP likely used heteronormative as a term for a gender-conforming straight relationship.

 

I'm not sure I understand what question you're asking of homoromantic aces, but I could see the general topics of this thread being relevant to ask as well since this is really about mono-romantic orientations and how trans people factor into that equation.

I don't think you sounded hostile. It was more of a general statement. Heteronormative is an odd word choice where one would usually see something like cis-hetero, but that's just me being nitpicky. 

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Mezzo Forte
4 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

The only thing more demoralizing than this is that trans guys don't seem to be much more willing. At least, not in my experience. God, have I mentioned before how much being trans sucks?

I always found that kind of interesting myself. Sometimes I wonder if the sort of separation of trans communities online has an impact, but honestly, some trans guys do end up really buying into machismo and end up acting kinda misogynist, which doesn't bode well for dating trans women in particular. Guess shitty people exist within every demographic. Still, my heart goes out to you, my friend. :(

 

Dating really does have a lot of BS tied to it, doesn't it? All the power to those of you who do pursue relationships, especially those who navigate them as a trans person.

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ChillaKilla
7 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

but honestly, some trans guys do end up really buying into machismo and end up acting kinda misogynist,

Can confirm, I’ve seen trans guys worse than cis guys in this regard...

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Nowhere Girl

Actually, I don't think that heteroromantic asexual relationships can be heteronormative in the strict sense. Heteronormativity also includes assumptions about sex... Of course, sex is an "invisible" kind of activity - people usually don't do it in public, and those who do risk arrest, so unless a couple openly declares that they don't have sex (as some visibility-raising asexual couples have done), other people won't know it...

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butterflydreams
11 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

I always found that kind of interesting myself. Sometimes I wonder if the sort of separation of trans communities online has an impact, but honestly, some trans guys do end up really buying into machismo and end up acting kinda misogynist, which doesn't bode well for dating trans women in particular. Guess shitty people exist within every demographic. Still, my heart goes out to you, my friend. :(

I just assumed trans guys want real women just like cis guys do. In my opinion, they should be more open and understanding, but they aren’t. I’d love to date a trans guy because I’d be getting a guy, and someone who understands what dysphoria is like.

 

11 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

Dating really does have a lot of BS tied to it, doesn't it? All the power to those of you who do pursue relationships, especially those who navigate them as a trans person.

I wouldn’t know, sadly. I haven’t ever really dated, pre or post transition. I thought transitioning and being a more happy, outgoing person would help me out, but apparently being a real woman matters more. 

 

3 hours ago, ChillaKilla said:

Can confirm, I’ve seen trans guys worse than cis guys in this regard...

Yuck. That’s a downer.

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butterflydreams

lol, and just seen on a dating site. Trans guy, would consider dating someone else who's trans. Dated some gender fluid people (who I'm willing to bet were AFAB). But he's mostly into cis women / lesbians. Nice.

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Mezzo Forte
19 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

lol, and just seen on a dating site. Trans guy, would consider dating someone else who's trans. Dated some gender fluid people (who I'm willing to bet were AFAB). But he's mostly into cis women / lesbians. Nice.

That's definitely something that's perplexes me. The one thing I've heard about that tends to explain that attitude is when a trans man gets really attached to the lesbian community and hesitates letting go of that connection even after coming to terms with being a man. Either that or he's not on T and just finds it easier to date lesbians who prefer more butch partners. It's still a weird thing to wrap my mind around.

 

Still, it's shitty seeing trans guys not being receptive to dating trans women. You'd think they'd know better. I can at least kind of see someone trying to avoid involvement in queer spaces to feel more straight, even if that's a shitty reason (since dating a transwoman doesn't make this a queer relationship). But even then, this guy is clearly not opposed to being in queer spaces. People confuse me. Guess my aro ass has a hard time understanding dating etiquette in general.

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butterflydreams
4 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

The one thing I've heard about that tends to explain that attitude is when a trans man gets really attached to the lesbian community and hesitates letting go of that connection even after coming to terms with being a man.

I think this has a lot to do with it. This particular guy was definitely on T though. Looked like a guy to me. 

 

6 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

Guess my aro ass has a hard time understanding dating etiquette in general.

You and me both. I don't understand how people can be so attached to gay/lesbian dating scenes. I also don't understand how a lesbian woman would be ok dating a guy...*shrugs*. I'm not going to think too deeply on this because it just upsets me. Just date who you want and be honest about it, is that so hard?

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Calligraphette_Coe
51 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

That's definitely something that's perplexes me. The one thing I've heard about that tends to explain that attitude is when a trans man gets really attached to the lesbian community and hesitates letting go of that connection even after coming to terms with being a man. Either that or he's not on T and just finds it easier to date lesbians who prefer more butch partners. It's still a weird thing to wrap my mind around.

 

Still, it's shitty seeing trans guys not being receptive to dating trans women. You'd think they'd know better. I can at least kind of see someone trying to avoid involvement in queer spaces to feel more straight, even if that's a shitty reason (since dating a transwoman doesn't make this a queer relationship). But even then, this guy is clearly not opposed to being in queer spaces. People confuse me. Guess my aro ass has a hard time understanding dating etiquette in general.

It's all simply about appearances, narratives and validation. That if you're seen with someone and romance is even slightly implied, that The Big Naughty is or will be happening.  And narrative, because who you are and how you idenity has a ready-made Ken and Barbie storyline that MUST be followed at the risk about betting kicked out Archie's Tree House. And valadation... ditto.

 

Makes me sometimes feel like the female version of this ditty from Alice Cooper....

 

Quote

 

I used to be such a sweet, sweet thing
'Til they got a hold of me.
I opened doors for little old ladies,
I helped the blind to see.
I got no friends 'cause they read the narratives.
They can't be seen with me... and
I'm gettin' real shot down
And I'm feeling mean.

 

Sheesh! How much damage to your social standing can it do to be seen with a feminine looking androgen discussing philosophy over some Chicken Alfredo and apple pie in a booth of a local Greasy Spoon?

 

Maybe I shouldn't ask. I've tried. And had it blow up in my face.

 

No more Miss Nice Guy.....

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AwkwardAxolotl
18 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

I just assumed trans guys want real women just like cis guys do. In my opinion, they should be more open and understanding, but they aren’t. I’d love to date a trans guy because I’d be getting a guy, and someone who understands what dysphoria is like.

It surprised me how many trans guys seem like they'd be unwilling to date a trans woman. It seems like the understanding of dysphoria, etc. would make having a trans woman as a partner a bonus, not a deal-breaker.

 

In college, I dated a trans woman, and it was really nice to have a partner who understood dysphoria.

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butterflydreams
1 hour ago, AwkwardAxolotl said:

It surprised me how many trans guys seem like they'd be unwilling to date a trans woman. It seems like the understanding of dysphoria, etc. would make having a trans woman as a partner a bonus, not a deal-breaker.

 

In college, I dated a trans woman, and it was really nice to have a partner who understood dysphoria.

Exactly. I think even among trans people, it all comes down to genitals. Which is so unbelievably sad. And like Mezzo said, there are probably a lot of trans guys who came from the lesbian dating scene and can’t let it go. Evidently there are enough lesbians out there willing to date a man, but only if he’s configured a certain way. Someone is deluded in that scenario, and I’m not sure who.

 

It saddens me, but I don’t think there are many trans people like me out there, who never dated prior to transition. It’s just another reason to think I’m a freak. I’ve read so many stories of trans women gay manning it up prior to transition...and I just can’t fathom it. I knew I was attracted to men since my early 20s, but only with myself as a woman. 

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ChillaKilla
3 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

Someone is deluded in that scenario, and I’m not sure who.

It’s the cis lesbians who refuse to acknowledge the inherent cissexism in their dating practices, and transphobia for refusing to acknowledge their transmasculine partner’s identity. If you’re a lesbian, you shouldn’t be by large okay with dating a man, regardless of his genitals (although, I’ve seen a few previously lesbian-identified couples stay together during one partner’s transition and that’s different- moreso the problem is the ones who say “I date cis women and trans men” because that’s really just saying “everyone I date is a woman regardless of their take on the matter”)

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Kimmie.

I have never understood the dating scene. It just seems so unnecessarly complicated. From what i have heard ( i don't know how much truth there is in it but at least here) you have sex first ( one night stand/friend) then you date. And yeah i am at this forum for a reason.

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