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Demi-Gorgonzola

Demisexual or grey sexuality

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Demi-Gorgonzola

Hey hi hello 

 

I’m very very new and thought I would introduce myself. 

 

I’m here because I have questions so many questions and for once I feel like maybe I have found a group of people who can help me.

 

 I’m in my early 30’s now but my whole life have struggled with sex and sexual attraction. It’s not that I’m necessarily not attracted to people but I’m not attracted to most people. But on the other hand with certain people I am fiercely attracted to them. I have only ever had one partner and only ever been in love once, I didn’t start dating at all until my late twenties and only because I met someone who I had a connection with that made me realize maybe I could have sex but only with people I connect with. 

 

This has left me all very confused as it seemed like maybe I was A-sexual but I knew I had sexual feelings until I learnt of the term demisexual. I am also bisexual and perhaps even polyamorous.

 

any similar stories or advice would be appreciated lol. Looking forward to being part of this community if you think I fit in 

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Star Bit

Needing to trust people you have sex with is normal for sexual people. Since there's only one person in your experience it's hard to say if sexually desiring someone is rare for you in general (having a rare interest trigger), or if you require an abnormal span of time before sex is desired (demisexual). Either way it falls under Gray-(hetero/homo/bi)sexual. By saying you're bisexual, you mean you desire sex with men and women? I thought you said you only desired sex with one person. Or did you just mean crushes? That's not automatically bisexual, but it would be biromantic.

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roland.o

Hello and welcome to the AVEN forums, Demi-Gorgonzola :-) Have some cake :cake:!

 

3 hours ago, Demi-Gorgonzola said:

maybe I could have sex but only with people I connect with.

That's not an uncommon thing even for sexuals :-) But demisexual sounds like a good label for what you describe. I'm not sure if the topic title was intended as a question? I consider demisexuality as a specific variation of grey sexuality, so these labels are not contradicting.

 

Demisexual and polyamorous is an uncommon combination though. I find it hard to connect even with one person at a time strongly enough. Splitting my capacity for bonding between several people would probably not leave any of these connections strong enough. But maybe I'm just not a polyamorous person.

 

All the best to you! :cake:

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Deus Ex Infinity
3 hours ago, Demi-Gorgonzola said:

Hey hi hello 

 

I’m very very new and thought I would introduce myself. 

 

I’m here because I have questions so many questions and for once I feel like maybe I have found a group of people who can help me.

 

 I’m in my early 30’s now but my whole life have struggled with sex and sexual attraction. It’s not that I’m necessarily not attracted to people but I’m not attracted to most people. But on the other hand with certain people I am fiercely attracted to them. I have only ever had one partner and only ever been in love once, I didn’t start dating at all until my late twenties and only because I met someone who I had a connection with that made me realize maybe I could have sex but only with people I connect with. 

 

This has left me all very confused as it seemed like maybe I was A-sexual but I knew I had sexual feelings until I learnt of the term demisexual. I am also bisexual and perhaps even polyamorous.

 

any similar stories or advice would be appreciated lol. Looking forward to being part of this community if you think I fit in 

It sounds a lot like me to be honest :D I came to see myself as being somewhere inbetween demi & grey asexual since I have a very low libido and hardly ever experience sexual attraction to someone. Also, forming a close emotional connection is crucial and absolutedly mandatoy. I've only been in love twice and I'm actaully very proud and happy with it.

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Demi-Gorgonzola
5 hours ago, Star Bit said:

Needing to trust people you have sex with is normal for sexual people. Since there's only one person in your experience it's hard to say if you sexually desiring someone is rare in general (having a rare interest trigger), or if you require an abnormal span of time before sex is desired (demisexual). Either way it falls under Gray-(hetero/homo/bi)sexual. By saying you're bisexual, you mean you desire sex with men and women? I thought you said you only desired sex with one person. Or did you just mean crushes? That's not automatically bisexual, but it would be biromantic.

Hi thank you for replying yes probably bi-romantic? I’m still learning what it all means and where I identify. Honestly for a long time I just felt very different and alone.

 

I guess a rare interest or trigger would more describe me. It doesn’t necessarily take a long time to develop an attraction to the RIGHT person but it’s an intense emotional attraction that sometimes involves sex but honestly I don’t need it I just want to be close to that person and only that person. 

 

 

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Demi-Gorgonzola

Just to clarify I have had sex with three people. All people I had intense bonds with. 

 

The first one one helped me to realise that I did actually experience emotional and sexual attraction but in a very specific way.

 

The second person I was attracted to him way more than he was to me. He just wanted sex but I felt a deeper connection (not necessarily love) and I just don’t think he understood. That was a very confusing and messed up relationship in general.

 

The third person is my amazing boyfriend who is very much a sexual person but he loves me with all his heart and just let’s m do my own thing. It wasn’t until I was with him that I have fully started to explore and understand that my mode of sexual attraction may be different but that it’s still normal and I’m not some kind of freak. 

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Demi-Gorgonzola
7 hours ago, roland.o said:

Hello and welcome to the AVEN forums, Demi-Gorgonzola :-) Have some cake :cake:!

 

That's not an uncommon thing even for sexuals :-) But demisexual sounds like a good label for what you describe. I'm not sure if the topic title was intended as a question? I consider demisexuality as a specific variation of grey sexuality, so these labels are not contradicting.

 

Demisexual and polyamorous is an uncommon combination though. I find it hard to connect even with one person at a time strongly enough. Splitting my capacity for bonding between several people would probably not leave any of these connections strong enough. But maybe I'm just not a polyamorous person.

 

All the best to you! :cake:

Hi Roland thanks for the cake!

yes the title topic was a question :) as the strong emotional connection part of demisexuality seems to apply to me but it doesn’t necessarily take a long time to form in fact with my boyfriend I was drawn to him before I met him face to face ( we met online) but on the other hand I definitely do not experience “normal” sexual attraction and used to become very anxious and upset in situations where I felt like I may be pressured into talking to or interacting with people (both men and women) who had a sexual sexual interest in me.

 

the polyamorous thing as I said I’m not sure. Their are women in my life that I love fiercely, I have chosen to turn that love into friendship but have had feelings for at least two of these people. I’m happily with my boyfriend now but I still feel attracted occasionally to these people. I think I just love them so much and I do wonder sometimes that if the right person came along who wanted a relationship that maybe yeah I am polyamorous. 

But the feelings aren’t necessarily sexual but they are not platonic either.

 

as I said I’m just very confused about who I am...

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Pramana
55 minutes ago, Demi-Gorgonzola said:

the strong emotional connection part of demisexuality seems to apply to me but it doesn’t necessarily take a long time to form

Demisexuality is usually defined along the lines of "only experiencing sexual attraction after a romantic and/or emotional bond has formed", so there is no length of time requirement within the definition. Now in practice it may often take a long time for a demisexual to form a sufficient connection to experience sexual attraction, but it's not necessarily a requirement.

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Demi-Gorgonzola

Thanks everyone your comments have been super helpful:) I can already tell that this is an awesome community and I’m so glad I found it

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Star Bit

Yes, demisexual is typically defined by a bond, but that is factually normal allosexual behavior according to studies. The term wasn't made by Gods, and it was created probably less than a decade ago; which is many times shorter than most words have existed; it takes time to work out the kinks. What they MEANT was that it takes an abnormal span of time before they desire sex with someone. If that doesn't happen then it's not demisexual.

 

@Demi-Gorgonzola (your user name makes me think of the rat from a show called Chowder, link) So you don't desire sex with men? Not for its sexual or emotional pleasure? Having romantic and sexual orientation not match is called a cross-orientation. Crushing on both genders but only desiring sex with the opposite gender is called Biromantic Heterosexual. The latter would get the addition of "Grey-" if it's a once in a blue moon kinda thing.

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Pramana
32 minutes ago, Star Bit said:

Yes, demisexual is typically defined by a bond, but that is factually normal allosexual behavior according to studies.

There are no studies which say that it is factually normal to never experience sexual attraction outside of a close emotional/romantic bond. I am sure that no such studies exist. However, if you can provide links to relevant passages from actual studies (i.e. not YouTube videos) that would be great.
 

32 minutes ago, Star Bit said:

What they MEANT was that it takes an abnormal span of time before they desire sex with someone. If that doesn't happen then it's not demisexual.

Furthermore, this is not what they meant, and we know this because here's what Demi Gray (the most well-known demisexuality blog) has to say on the topic:

"Nah, you don’t need to take years to get to know someone to be a “true” demisexual (there’s no such thing as a true ace—if you feel like a label describes your experiences, you have the right to use it). 

Imagine if you went on a week-long trip to foreign country with someone you didn’t know, and spent all your time with them. You might end up becoming quite close with them because of your shared experiences. Whereas someone you know for years but don’t talk to or see often might not be someone you’re close with. Time can be a rubberband when it comes to human relationships. If you have just one excellent conversation with a stranger, it might be enough to facilitate an emotional connection. The film Before Sunrise even depicts two strangers developing emotional intimacy in a less than 24 hour period.

So don’t worry about how long it takes—the definition of demisexual only says that a close emotional bond is present, not that it needs to take a certain amount of time to be developed."

http://www.demigray.org/post/80784166775/i-keep-reading-about-how-some-demisexuals-take

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Star Bit

FYI, AVEN's english server i.e. David Jay's definition of asexuality went through many definitions before they settled on the American cultural phrase sexual attraction quite some time after AVEN started. He even originally defined it as "no attraction to others". Demisexual first started out as what we now call the Gray spectrum. Just because a definition of anything settled for some time doesn't mean it's right (especially considering Demi's span of time of existence). Wording is everything and the slightest things can make a difference. 

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FictoVore.
On 12/6/2017 at 6:45 AM, Pramana said:

There are no studies which say that it is factually normal to never experience sexual attraction outside of a close emotional/romantic bond. I am sure that no such studies exist. However, if you can provide links to relevant passages from actual studies (i.e. not YouTube videos) that would be great.
 

Furthermore, this is not what they meant, and we know this because here's what Demi Gray (the most well-known demisexuality blog) has to say on the topic:

"Nah, you don’t need to take years to get to know someone to be a “true” demisexual (there’s no such thing as a true ace—if you feel like a label describes your experiences, you have the right to use it). 

Imagine if you went on a week-long trip to foreign country with someone you didn’t know, and spent all your time with them. You might end up becoming quite close with them because of your shared experiences. Whereas someone you know for years but don’t talk to or see often might not be someone you’re close with. Time can be a rubberband when it comes to human relationships. If you have just one excellent conversation with a stranger, it might be enough to facilitate an emotional connection. The film Before Sunrise even depicts two strangers developing emotional intimacy in a less than 24 hour period.

So don’t worry about how long it takes—the definition of demisexual only says that a close emotional bond is present, not that it needs to take a certain amount of time to be developed."

http://www.demigray.org/post/80784166775/i-keep-reading-about-how-some-demisexuals-take

Yeah everything you explained here is 'demisexual' if we are literally just saying that these people need a bond of some sort to want sex.. it's just not asexual. It's an extremely, extremely common sexual experience and I'd hate to think you're possibly attempting to define 'regular sexuality' as 'being totally capable of actively desiring casual sex with random hot people' because that's how people trying to promote 'demisexuality is a form of asexuality' thing usually try to define regular normal sexuality. But they're wrong. It's extremely, extremely common for sexual people to have no desire for casual sex with strangers and to only actively desire sexual intimacy with people once they've formed some kind of bond with them. That demisexual blog trying to say 'just after sunset' is a type of demisexuality is actually laughable. That movie is an adaptation of a bloody play in which the whole story needed to be summed up in an hour on stage, even many regular normal hypersexual people take longer than one day haha. But yeah totally if we are saying 'anyone who has no desire for casual sex with strangers is demisexual' that's totally fine (though it's also pointless but whatever) we just need to also be 100% clear that it's not asexuality in any way, shape, or form. It's very normal, very average hetero/homo/bi/pansexuality.

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Pramana
1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

Yeah everything you explained here is 'demisexual' if we are literally just saying that these people need a bond of some sort to want sex.. it's just not asexual. It's an extremely, extremely common sexual experience and I'd hate to think you're possibly attempting to define 'regular sexuality' as 'being totally capable of actively desiring casual sex with random hot people' because that's how people trying to promote 'demisexuality is a form of asexuality' thing usually try to define regular normal sexuality. But they're wrong. It's extremely, extremely common for sexual people to have no desire for casual sex with strangers and to only actively desire sexual intimacy with people once they've formed some kind of bond with them. That demisexual blog trying to say 'just after sunset' is a type of demisexuality is actually laughable. That movie is an adaptation of a bloody play in which the whole story needed to be summed up in an hour on stage, even many regular normal hypersexual people take longer than one day haha. But yeah totally if we are saying 'anyone who has no desire for casual sex with strangers is demisexual' that's totally fine (though it's also pointless but whatever) we just need to also be 100% clear that it's not asexuality in any way, shape, or form. It's very normal, very average hetero/homo/bi/pansexuality.

Not experiencing sexual attraction is very different from not desiring casual sex. See the Asexuality Archive entry on this point: "Please note that there is a difference between demisexuality, which involves attraction, and “I don’t have sex unless I love someone”, which has to do with behavior." http://www.asexualityarchive.com/glossary/
 

Basically, the idea is that if you don't experience sexual attraction based on sex/gender, and you only become attracted to people based on emotional/romantic qualities, then you wouldn't have a traditional sexual orientation (because traditional sexual orientations are defined in terms of sex/gender attractions). I think most people can tell that they're sexually attracted say to women or men even when they're not in a close interpersonal relationship, which has nothing to do with whether or not they desire casual sex.

I would add that the blog I referenced is connected to the Demisexuality Resource Centre (demisexuality.org), the main demisexuality website and forum site. 
On the other hand, The Asexual Agenda suggests that maybe demisexuality is really common, but they don't see that as a problem: https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/what-happens-if-all-demisexual-people-are-wrong/

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FictoVore.
On 12/6/2017 at 5:12 PM, Pramana said:

Not experiencing sexual attraction is very different from not desiring casual sex. See the Asexuality Archive entry on this point: "Please note that there is a difference between demisexuality, which involves attraction, and “I don’t have sex unless I love someone”, which has to do with behavior." http://www.asexualityarchive.com/glossary/
 

Basically, the idea is that if you don't experience sexual attraction based on sex/gender, and you only become attracted to people based on emotional/romantic qualities, then you wouldn't have a traditional sexual orientation (because traditional sexual orientations are defined in terms of sex/gender attractions). I think most people can tell that they're sexually attracted say to women or men even when they're not in a close interpersonal relationship, which has nothing to do with whether or not they desire casual sex.

I would add that the blog I referenced is connected to the Demisexuality Resource Centre (demisexuality.org), the main demisexuality website and forum site. 
On the other hand, The Asexual Agenda suggests that maybe demisexuality is really common, but they don't see that as a problem: https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/what-happens-if-all-demisexual-people-are-wrong/

No see you're just twisting the definition to suit your own bizarre narrative. In that blog post for example, they use 'before sunset' as an example.. those are two perfectly normal people meeting and falling for each other faster than the average person falls for someone, that's all. Even if you want to twist it to say it's nothing to do with desiring sexual intimacy with that person (which obviously it is) that doesn't change what I'm saying here. No matter how you want to twist it Pramana, 'looking at people and instantly feeling this explosive magical feeling' certainly isn't unanimous among sexual people, as MULTIPLE sexual people here have told you many times now. 

 

It doesn't MATTER how you're defining this 'magical sexual attraction experience', it's still 100% normal to not just explosively and casually experience it for random strangers.. how low would your opinion have to be of  sexual people for you to honestly believe that they all experience that instantly on sight and that's the one thing that makes them non-asexual?

 

I'm FINE with you wanting to claim that a label like demisexual is a real thing, just please, please be honest about the fact that it's a very normal sexual experience the way yourself (and the people in that initial blog post you quoted) are explaining it.. that's REGARDLESS of whatever bizarre and twisted way you're attempting to define sexual attraction.

 

And no there's absolutely no problem with demisexuality being really common (which it is the way you're defining it).. it's just a very normal sexual behavior involving the *way* that you fall for people sexually - regardless of how you try to define that 'attraction'. It's normal. It's not asexual. And when actual sexual people keep ending up yelling at you because of how skewed your beliefs are about how THEY behave and feel sexually, you really should consider taking a step back and rethinking this twisted narrative you're trying to manipulate people into believing because it's only going to come back to hurt asexuality visibility and education in the long run. You've taken this stuff off AVEN now which is extremely harmful to the naive teens out there who are trying to understand asexuality better and will stumble across some of the blog posts you've been writing (as I have). It will actually confuse them about very basic facts of life and cause them to question things that never, ever should need to be questioned (like how FAST they want sex with people, or how FAST they experience whatever this magical feeling is you seem to have trouble defining accurately and that sexual people keep insisting to you is irrelevant). It's those people especially I'm concerned for Pramana, and you should be too. 

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Baam
10 hours ago, Pramana said:

Not experiencing sexual attraction is very different from not desiring casual sex. See the Asexuality Archive entry on this point: "Please note that there is a difference between demisexuality, which involves attraction, and “I don’t have sex unless I love someone”, which has to do with behavior." http://www.asexualityarchive.com/glossary/
 

Basically, the idea is that if you don't experience sexual attraction based on sex/gender, and you only become attracted to people based on emotional/romantic qualities, then you wouldn't have a traditional sexual orientation (because traditional sexual orientations are defined in terms of sex/gender attractions). I think most people can tell that they're sexually attracted say to women or men even when they're not in a close interpersonal relationship, which has nothing to do with whether or not they desire casual sex.

I would add that the blog I referenced is connected to the Demisexuality Resource Centre (demisexuality.org), the main demisexuality website and forum site. 
On the other hand, The Asexual Agenda suggests that maybe demisexuality is really common, but they don't see that as a problem: https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/what-happens-if-all-demisexual-people-are-wrong/

Most people are attracted to others based on their emotional qualities/personality. I think you'll find it's rare that someone is with another person seriously merely because of their sex or gender. I'm not attracted to people simply because they're female and they're hot in my eyes. There's so much more to it. For example, I find it really attractive if a woman is good at the things I enjoy (e.g. games, or physics/maths). Or if they're not arrogant. But that's not what makes me grey-sexual, and it doesn't make me demi-sexual.

 

Do you really think someone would have a healthy sexual relationship to someone they consider a complete arsehole, just because they're experiencing some attraction to them based on their sex or gender?

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Pramana
49 minutes ago, Baam said:

Most people are attracted to others based on their emotional qualities/personality. I think you'll find it's rare that someone is with another person seriously merely because of their sex or gender. I'm not attracted to people simply because they're female and they're hot in my eyes. There's so much more to it. For example, I find it really attractive if a woman is good at the things I enjoy (e.g. games, or physics/maths). Or if they're not arrogant. But that's not what makes me grey-sexual, and it doesn't make me demi-sexual.

 

Do you really think someone would have a healthy sexual relationship to someone they consider a complete arsehole, just because they're experiencing some attraction to them based on their sex or gender?

I don't think you understand the concept. The idea is that heterosexuality is defined on the basis of attraction to people of the opposite sex, and I think that heterosexuals are generally aware that they have a sexual interest in people of the opposite sex and not the same sex, which is what motivates them to pursue sexual relationships with people of the opposite sex in the first place. If people experienced attraction based only on emotional qualities/personality, then sex/gender wouldn't matter, but sex/gender does matter to most orientations (with the exceptions of pansexuality and asexuality). One can say that for most people, therefore, sex/gender is a necessary but insufficient condition for becoming attracted to someone. I don't know any heterosexuals who would date outside of their sex/gender preference just because they liked someone's personality, for example, which suggests that sex/gender is more important than personality. That's why the traditional view in psychology is to define orientations in terms of sex/gender attraction, although of course other factors are usually relevant in addition.

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Pramana
8 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

And no there's absolutely no problem with demisexuality being really common (which it is the way you're defining it).. it's just a very normal sexual behavior involving the *way* that you fall for people sexually - regardless of how you try to define that 'attraction'. It's normal. It's not asexual. And when actual sexual people keep ending up yelling at you because of how skewed your beliefs are about how THEY behave and feel sexually, you really should consider taking a step back and rethinking this twisted narrative you're trying to manipulate people into believing because it's only going to come back to hurt asexuality visibility and education in the long run. You've taken this stuff off AVEN now which is extremely harmful to the naive teens out there who are trying to understand asexuality better and will stumble across some of the blog posts you've been writing (as I have). It will actually confuse them about very basic facts of life and cause them to question things that never, ever should need to be questioned (like how FAST they want sex with people, or how FAST they experience whatever this magical feeling is you seem to have trouble defining accurately and that sexual people keep insisting to you is irrelevant). It's those people especially I'm concerned for Pramana, and you should be too. 

When I look at the evidence from the asexual community censuses, I see that only a minority of demisexuals indicate a favourable attitude towards sex, and that is replicated in a couple of studies that have found lower levels of sexual interest and behaviour among self-identified gray-area respondents. I would say that lends some support to the concept.

Regarding the casual sex question, it is notable that according to the Demi Gray blog demisexuals can desire casual sex, they just can't be motivated by sexual attraction when they do so: "It’s also worth noting that demisexuals can also choose to have casual sex or sex outside a romantic relationship if they want to. They can have one night stands and friends with benefits. *cough* What demisexuals cannot choose is whether or not they are sexually attracted to the person."
http://www.demigray.org/post/73880382774/hey-recently-i-explained-the-concept-of

Furthermore, in light of current research on the relationship between romantic and sexual attraction, demisexuality may be considered an example of sexual fluidity, and we see recognition of that concept in the 2002 version of AVEN's Big FAQ:

"My sexuality comes in phases, sometimes I'm sexual, other times I'm completely asexual, do I have a place in your asexual community?

You would certainly have a lot in common with other asexuals. At the times when you are asexual you may choose to identify as asexual, at the times when you are sexual you could still have asexual issues -- such as explaining asexuality to sexual partners -- and therefore could find a place in the asexual community."
https://web.archive.org/web/20030225191733/http://www.asexuality.org:80/bigfaq.htm#def3

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Pramana
12 minutes ago, New display name said:

Regarding the casual sex question, it is notable that according to the Demi Gray blog demisexuals can desire casual sex, they just can't be motivated by sexual attraction when they do so”

 

Pretty sure the author of the Demi Gray blog hasn’t ever googled the definition of Demisexuality then.

Well, the definition of demisexuality is "not experiencing sexual attraction until a close emotional and/or romantic bond has been formed", and Demi Gray is probably the more influential demisexuality blog. Here's the full passage:

"Ah yes, the classic “but isn’t that normal?”

“Normal” means finding a person, thinking they’re sexually attractive and desiring them sexually, and then choosing to wait to have sex with them for whatever reason—maybe you want to wait to see if the person is not a creeper, maybe you have religious reasons, maybe you want some form of commitment from them first, etc.

Demisexual means being completely unable to find anyone sexually attractive until an emotional connection is formed, and even then, sexual attraction might not develop. The difference is choice. Demisexuals are not choosing to wait. They are simply wired the way they are.

It’s also worth noting that demisexuals can also choose to have casual sex or sex outside a romantic relationship if they want to. They can have one night stands and friends with benefits. *cough* What demisexuals cannot choose is whether or not they are sexually attracted to the person.

Edit: I forgot to answer the first part of your question. I have encountered this a couple times, but it was from people who were already willing to accept demisexuality and just wanted clarification."
http://www.demigray.org/post/73880382774/hey-recently-i-explained-the-concept-of

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Pramana
1 hour ago, New display name said:

So Demisexuality is (the freedom to) mess around with casual sex, until you find a partner you truely like, and then you need to wait until there is a bond to have sex? Sounds like fairly common sexual behaviour to me.

 

Demisexuality when you include the whole ‘sexual attraction’ term - rather than just sex as a whole - dilutes the term entirely.

 

At least when it’s ‘need a strong bond to have sex’, it’s simple for outsiders/a sexual partner to understand and accept why someone is taking longer-than-often-deemed-usual to have sex.

 

Having casual sex and then delaying it in the case of a relationship probably shouldn’t come under the same umbrella if anyone wants the Demi term to ever be widely accepted and recognised IMO.

Orientations are indexed to psychological states, and thus to be considered an orientation according to psychology demisexuality would have to be defined in terms of sexual attraction. Psychologists would be more likely to view "needing a strong bond to have sex" as a personality trait, not an orientation.

I think people who have casual sex are usually motivated by the sex/gender of the people they're attracted to. For example, heterosexual males who go out to a club or bar for this purpose are probably only interested in meeting women, because they're only attracted to women. But if you're demisexual, you wouldn't have this preference, because you wouldn't be attracted to anyone to start with, so your internal experience of sexuality would be very different.

The concerns you've raised above have more to do with identity politics than psychology anyway, although I would suggest that psychology has done a great deal to legitimatize minority sexual orientations, and as such there's a reason why the community has chosen to follow psychology in adopting the terminology that it uses.

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FictoVore.
On 12/7/2017 at 8:52 AM, Pramana said:

But if you're demisexual, you wouldn't have this preference, because you wouldn't be attracted to anyone to start with, so your internal experience of sexuality would be very different.

Er, you realize that 'demisexual' people can have gender preferences, right? One isn't automatically pan/bi just because one needs some kind of emotional bond with someone before they can desire sex with them/desire them in a sexual way (which again, is extremely common). 

 

This stuff is really, really basic Pramana, how do you manage to get it all so twisted like this??

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Baam
23 hours ago, Pramana said:

I don't think you understand the concept. The idea is that heterosexuality is defined on the basis of attraction to people of the opposite sex, and I think that heterosexuals are generally aware that they have a sexual interest in people of the opposite sex and not the same sex, which is what motivates them to pursue sexual relationships with people of the opposite sex in the first place. If people experienced attraction based only on emotional qualities/personality, then sex/gender wouldn't matter, but sex/gender does matter to most orientations (with the exceptions of pansexuality and asexuality). One can say that for most people, therefore, sex/gender is a necessary but insufficient condition for becoming attracted to someone. I don't know any heterosexuals who would date outside of their sex/gender preference just because they liked someone's personality, for example, which suggests that sex/gender is more important than personality. That's why the traditional view in psychology is to define orientations in terms of sex/gender attraction, although of course other factors are usually relevant in addition.

I agree entirely that sex and gender is an essential factor in attraction. However you cannot deny that personality/emotional qualities (I'll just say personality from now on) does not contribute an almost if not entirely equal part in it. Like you said, if someone is completely heterosexual then that wipes out approximately half the population for them. But then the amount of people left is then further narrowed down by whether or not a person has emotional qualities attractive to them. A heterosexual woman who loathes extroverted people is equally unlikely to date a woman as they are an extroverted man.

 

It's not one, or the other. It's both.

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Marcus Gong

You fit in pretty well... I guess? But what demisexual/asexual/bisexual. Man you must have a condition (no offence). It's just that things that happen like this are miracles. To be honest you should go ask the doctor what you are.

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Pramana
8 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

Er, you realize that 'demisexual' people have gender preferences, right? One isn't automatically pan/bi just because one needs some kind of emotional bond with someone before they can desire sex with them (which again, is extremely common). 

 

This stuff is really, really basic Pramana, how do you manage to get it all so twisted like this??

Demisexuals who have a romantic orientation may have gender preferences as a result of that romantic orientation. But if you don't experience sexual attraction to start with, then you wouldn't find one gender more sexually interesting than the other.

There is a reason why demisexuality is usually defined as "lacking sexual attraction outside close interpersonal contexts", rather than "not desiring sex until you know someone well". The first concerns the capacity to experience a psychological state that orients one's sexual desires towards other people, the second concerns potentially a variety of different personality traits and beliefs that influence how one chooses to conduct relationships. I don't think you understand the difference between these two concepts.

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TheAngel(of)Peace
1 hour ago, Pramana said:

But if you don't experience sexual attraction to start with, then you wouldn't find one gender more sexually interesting than the other.

Really? I've never heard that before. I thought demisexuals also had sexual orientations wrt. gender. Demisexuals do experience sexual attraction, just not very often (because they need a strong bond for it to develop). So when they do, it's possible for it to be directed at only one gender.

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Pramana
13 minutes ago, TheAngel(of)Peace said:

Really? I've never heard that before. I thought demisexuals also had sexual orientations wrt. gender. Demisexuals do experience sexual attraction, just not very often (because they need a strong bond for it to develop). So when they do, it's possible for it to be directed at only one gender.

It is likely that demisexuality is used in different ways by different people, but at least as I understand the common definition, a demisexual wouldn't have sexual desires or feelings for people based on immediately apparent characteristics such as sex/gender, so I don't think they would have a sexual preference in that regard, although they might have a romantic preference which leads to a sexual preference. Here I'm following the description provided by Sonofzeal, who I'm told first coined the term "demisexual":

"Indeed. I'm demisexual, but only with regards to females (my nonsexual boy-crush on Edward Norton notwithstanding). Specifically, I find Secondary Sexual Attraction is contingent on some form of Romantic Attraction, and since I'm only romantically attracted to girls, I'll only experience it with them."
http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/48686-demisexual-vs-pansexual/

https://pianycist.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/the-development-of-gray-asexuality-and-demisexuality-as-identity-terms/

That usage also has the benefit of tracking psychological research on sexual fluidity (associated with Lisa Diamond) which suggests that people can develop sexual attractions to people outside their orientation by way of romantic attraction (in particular, heterosexual women who develop an emotional/romantic attraction to other women, and then subsequently develop sexual attraction). I don't think anyone has applied that theory to demisexuality yet, but perhaps demisexuality could be interpreted as a type of sexual fluidity from asexual to sexual, through the intermediary of romantic attraction.

 

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FictoVore.
6 hours ago, Pramana said:

Demisexuals who have a romantic orientation may have gender preferences as a result of that romantic orientation. But if you don't experience sexual attraction to start with, then you wouldn't find one gender more sexually interesting than the other.

There is a reason why demisexuality is usually defined as "lacking sexual attraction outside close interpersonal contexts", rather than "not desiring sex until you know someone well". The first concerns the capacity to experience a psychological state that orients one's sexual desires towards other people, the second concerns potentially a variety of different personality traits and beliefs that influence how one chooses to conduct relationships. I don't think you understand the difference between these two concepts.

It's not ABOUT finding 'one gender more sexually interesting than the other' for everyone though.. especially people whose sexual interest is based on their romantic orientation. You still know you only want sex with men (if you're a heteroromantic sexual woman) because it's men you fall in love with and you know you desire sexual intimacy with someone you love. This is so incredibly basic and common that it'll be hard to find people trying to spell it out for you other places online because no one else even thinks it's strange or different or anything. Sexual people aren't like 'women get me so hard and that's why I'm a heterosexual man'. Sure SOME are like that but there's a lot more to it for many.

 

No it's not that I don't understand the difference, it's that when it comes to defining real human beings who like to fuck (oh wait, you know, like ME lol) there really isn't a difference in between 'sexual attraction' the way you're defining it, and who you choose to have sex with and why you choose them and not someone else. 

 

Those people fucking other people casually are still CHOOSING certain people to have sex with and not others based on specific reasons, whatever reasons those may be. Then sometimes the desire for sexual intimacy is even stronger and more 'like a drug' when you develop that emotional bond with someone else.. you get really caught up in wanting to fuck that specific person whereas other times with other people you didn't care about the person and just wanted the sex with them. That's called a 100% NORMAL PERSON who sometimes likes casual sex but prefers a deeper emotional connection when possible, because yes any sexual person will tell you casual sex and sex with an emotional connection are very, very different and most prefer the feelings of the sex with emotional connection because being attracted to a person in that emotional way really does heighten all the feelings on many levels. Casual sex though can be just as fun but in a very different way for some people who enjoy it (there are of course many who don't enjoy or want casual sex and are *only* able to desire sexual intimacy with a specific person once they have that emotional connection with them).

 

The reason I'm not addressing the whole 'sexual attraction' thing head on is because it's impossible with you. Sexuals here have been trying to explain this to you for a year now and you *just won't get it* so yeah, giving up on that one. But there isn't some magical feeling that is impossible to describe that is completely separate from our desire to connect sexually with some people and not others. The desire for sexual intimacy can be experienced without sexual attraction, sure, but the way you always try to define sexual attraction is more as 'being sexually drawn to a specific person' or even an entire frikken gender when that's certainly not how all sexual people experience their sexuality. That's the issue. That's ONE EXPERIENCE of sexuality and more a personality trait that some 'innate psychological condition inherent in all sexuals'. However all sexual people choose to have sex with some people and not others based on all sorts of reasons, and what matters is that they desire sexual intimacy enough to actually want to have it with other people in the first place. That's what makes them sexual. HOW they choose who they have sex with is very different from person to person depending on their personality and sexual desires and can't be summed up in any one way.

 

4 hours ago, TheAngel(of)Peace said:

Really? I've never heard that before. I thought demisexuals also had sexual orientations wrt. gender. Demisexuals do experience sexual attraction, just not very often (because they need a strong bond for it to develop). So when they do, it's possible for it to be directed at only one gender.

The reason you haven't heard of it is because it's not a thing :P Many demisexuals (if they're hetero or homo) are still emotionally drawn to one gender and not the other in the same way sexual people are. Pramana though thinks that sexual people 'want sex' with a specific gender (I'm assuming everyone of that gender) and that's what makes them sexual - though he words it as the indescribable psychological condition of sexual attraction, apparently sexual people experience this for everyone of a certain gender all the time lol). And demisexuals only desire sexual intimacy/have sexual attraction with specific people once an emotional connection has formed. But he's categorically wrong on almost every claim he makes about sexual people (I'm sexual, and many other sexual people here have been trying to explain to him why he's wrong for a year now but he won't listen) which makes his other claims about demisexuality and even asexuality pretty irrelevant really.

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Pramana
3 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

It's not ABOUT finding 'one gender more sexually interesting than the other' for everyone though.. especially people whose sexual interest is based on their romantic orientation. You still know you only want sex with men (if you're a heteroromantic sexual woman) because it's men you fall in love with and you know you desire sexual intimacy with someone you love. This is so incredibly basic and common that it'll be hard to find people trying to spell it out for you other places online because no one else even thinks it's strange or different or anything. Sexual people aren't like 'women get me so hard and that's why I'm a heterosexual man'. Sure SOME are like that but there's a lot more to it for many.

I think I've posted before about talking to a sociologist on this issue, and we agreed that based on the current research concerning sexual fluidity and romantic attraction, that demisexuality and other gray-area experiences might be quite common, especially among women. We don't see that as an objection though. There's no rule that says this has to be rare.
 

8 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

The reason I'm not addressing the whole 'sexual attraction' thing head on is because it's impossible with you. Sexuals here have been trying to explain this to you for a year now and you *just won't get it* so yeah, giving up on that one. But there isn't some magical feeling that is impossible to describe that is completely separate from our desire to connect sexually with some people and not others. The desire for sexual intimacy can be experienced without sexual attraction, sure, but the way you always try to define sexual attraction is more as 'being sexually drawn to a specific person' or even an entire frikken gender when that's certainly not how all sexual people experience their sexuality. That's the issue. That's ONE EXPERIENCE of sexuality and more a personality trait that some 'innate psychological condition inherent in all sexuals'. However all sexual people choose to have sex with some people and not others based on all sorts of reasons, and what matters is that they desire sexual intimacy enough to actually want to have it with other people in the first place. That's what makes them sexual. HOW they choose who they have sex with is very different from person to person depending on their personality and sexual desires and can't be summed up in any one way.

Likewise, I've posted before as I had contacted a few of the main researchers in the field regarding these issues, and the responses I received suggested that the type of opinion you're expressing above confuses reasons for having sex with orientation. Asexuality is the lack of a sexual orientation (or an orientation defined by the lack of an orientation), but it is not the lack of sexuality.

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