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Realistic or Unrealistic expectations?


vega57

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So when you refer to expecting things (explicitly including sex) here, what exactly are you talking about?

 

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But when it comes to sex--which is obviously often changeable--is it realistic to NOT expect the unexpected? 

 

So...

 

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No expectation of change and no expectation of something that's constant, at least when it comes to sex. 

... surely must mean that just as (in your eyes) it's perfectly reasonable to expect someone who previously gave every appearance of wanting and enjoying sex stops wanting and enjoying it, it must be reasonable to expect the opposite to happen - that someone who didn't like sex, stops not liking it. That's just the logic of your position.

 

Or does the logic only go one way?

 

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8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And generally the pattern is that the sexual wants to find a way to make things work, while the asexual is saying 'nope, this is my position. Nobody's keeping you'. In other words, they're the ones making their sexual requirements (ie none) the dealbreaker. The sexual has generally already hugely scaled down what they expect, and are frequently willing to settle for even less.

 

Ah, but the people who are saying "nope, this is my position," etc., should not be having sex to begin with.

 

At this point I identify as allosexual. Still, I really, really don't want sex. I know that I am capable of wanting sex, because I have a couple times before--but right now, it's a no-go. If my boyfriend were to tell me that he needed to have sex within a week's time in order for the relationship to work, then we really would just have to cut it off, because A) I'm not ready, and B) saying that would be more or less like [TMI] saying I should either suck dick or they leave. [/TMI]  Which would be a gross statement and I would not want to be with someone who'd make an ultimatum like that, anyway.

 

The difference in my case and the one I believe you're making is that my partner and I do have a lot of compromises, whereas I think  you're referring to the relationships where there is nothing happening in the way of sexual activities.  The thing is though, that people who are saying that "this is their position," so to say, are saying that for a very good reason. It's possible that they may come out cold, but it's a good thing for them. They have a limit, they know what it is, and they're drawing a line to protect themselves. That should be encouraged. After all, is one person having sex really worth it if the other person is traumatized or otherwise in emotional turmoil because of it? I'd hope not. (And of course I realize that for many a lack of sex can cause emotional turmoil, and while I'm not trying to ignore that, pointing that out doesn't change my statement in any way.)

 

I think that that is sometimes hard for allosexuals / people who don't have a problem with sex to understand. My ex believed that I needed to force myself to have sex to overcome my fear of it, but I know myself, and I've done enough research to know that doing that would be a disastrous idea. We ultimately ended things because he couldn't cope with the lack of sex. He wasn't a jerk or anything, he just didn't get that.

 

So it may be true that the asexuals are the ones making things a deal-breaker in many cases, but even if that's a case, I support it. They shouldn't do anything remotely related to sex if they don't want to do it, period.

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Ah, but the people who are saying "nope, this is my position," etc., should not be having sex to begin with.

...

it may be true that the asexuals are the ones making things a deal-breaker in many cases, but even if that's a case, I support it. They shouldn't do anything remotely related to sex if they don't want to do it, period.

Well no, but then it's rich to claim that sexuals are making their sexual demands the dealbreaker ('all they care about is sex', 'they just see me as a sex doll' etc), because almost always, they've been de facto compromising. And we both know that claim is frequently made.
 

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If my boyfriend were to tell me that he needed to have sex within a week's time in order for the relationship to work, then we really would just have to cut it off, because A) I'm not ready, and B) saying that would be more or less like [TMI] saying I should either suck dick or they leave. [/TMI]  Which would be a gross statement and I would not want to be with someone who'd make an ultimatum like that, anyway.

 

In that specific scenario, I'd agree with you. But I doubt any sexual would make an ultimatum over a single incidence like that - it's the 'never' element that does it. One refusal may turn out to be the final straw, but it's as both the latest in a long line of refusals, and no sign of the situation ever changing.

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7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So when you refer to expecting things (explicitly including sex) here, what exactly are you talking about?

 

 

So...

 

... surely must mean that just as (in your eyes) it's perfectly reasonable to expect someone who previously gave every appearance of wanting and enjoying sex stops wanting and enjoying it, it must be reasonable to expect the opposite to happen - that someone who didn't like sex, stops not liking it. That's just the logic of your position.

 

Or does the logic only go one way?

 

The problem is the expectations.  If you expect your partner to change, you very well may be disappointed when they don't

And, if you expect your partner NOT to change, you also may be very well disappointed when they do

 

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5 minutes ago, vega57 said:

The problem is the expectations.  If you expect your partner to change, you very well may be disappointed when they don't

And, if you expect your partner NOT to change, you also may be very well disappointed when they do

 

It's impossible to live without expectations, based on experience. We'd have to reconstruct every single moment of our lives from a priori logic, without using our experience at all.

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27 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well no, but then it's rich to claim that sexuals are making their sexual demands the dealbreaker ('all they care about is sex', 'they just see me as a sex doll' etc), because almost always, they've been de facto compromising. And we both know that claim is frequently made.

I understand your frustration. I also understand asexuals', because while you're absolutely right, sexuals often are trying to compromise, a lot of asexuals end up finding that (if there's not a lot of communication about it and / or the other person doesn't fully understand or respect it) even if they do try to compromise, it turns into a "can we have sex?" thing. NOT always, NOT every time, and from what I've heard and experienced this is towards the beginning--but that can hurt a lot nevertheless.

 

And I realize that that's not the same as never compromising (although there are a lot of asexuals who learned that they shouldn't try to compromise by doing so), and that that doesn't cover all of the factors, but I'm not trying to make it. When asexuals--or anyone--say that "they just see me as a sex doll," they're coming from a place of pain and frustration, just  as when a sexual--or anyone--says that their partner doesn't find them attractive or desire them. I don't see the point in me trying to pinpoint every detail or possibility in this, because it's frustrating for sexuals to hear asexuals say they only care about sex, and it can be frustrating for asexuals to hear sexuals say that they don't find them attractive. At a certain point--and this here would be the point--I'm unwilling to say anyone is "in the wrong" because I understand both sides, and while there are definitely gaps in logic of things that can be said, I'm not going to hold anyone at fault for saying something like that out of frustration . . . well you know, within reason. Some things depend on context.

 

40 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But I doubt any sexual would make an ultimatum over a single incidence like that

Some do. They're typically sex offenders. (Which was my point, since my post was primarily from the perspective of how asexuals shouldn't compromise if they don't want to.)

 

But your point is more that a sexual partner isn't generally going to leave because the asexual doesn't want to have sex one time, and yeah, I agree. That's not how it works in any normal relationship.

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. . . To get more on our current topic, I'll say that it really is impossible to live without expectations, but I also would agree that expectations cause a problem nonetheless. :rolleyes:

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When asexuals--or anyone--say that "they just see me as a sex doll," they're coming from a place of pain and frustration, just  as when a sexual--or anyone--says that their partner doesn't find them attractive or desire them

I can see how it's frustrating, but the asexuals are generally factually wrong about being seen just as a sex doll, while the sexuals are right that their partner doesn't find them sexually attractive (yes, I know, different to attractive per se, but we are specifically talking about sex here). The usual 'it's not you, it's everyone' only helps a little, because the asexual isn't in a relationship with 'everyone'. The asexual's 'I find you attractive but I don't want sex to be part of our relationship' is generally the biggest 'wtf?' moment in mixed relationships....

 

I completely agree nobody's particularly wrong, and it's probably because AVEN is obviously asexual-centric, but it does seem that statements like only being seen as a sex doll are greeted with cheerleading against the superficial selfish sexuals, while those partners' hurt feelings over not being sexually desired are frequently (not always) received with an attitude of 'sex isn't important, they should just get over it or leave'.

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I completely agree nobody's particularly wrong, and it's probably because AVEN is obviously asexual-centric, but it does seem that statements like only being seen as a sex doll are greeted with cheerleading against the superficial selfish sexuals, while those partners' hurt feelings over not being sexually desired are frequently (not always) received with an attitude of 'sex is important, they should just get over it or leave'.

You're right, I believe it's because AVEN has a large population of asexuals that sexuals can find that they go unheard. When one group gets frustrated they lash out, even unintentionally, and if that particular group is from asexuality, then it's more likely to get positive reinforcement than a sexual coming on and saying how much asexuality sucks.

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16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's impossible to live without expectations, based on experience. We'd have to reconstruct every single moment of our lives from a priori logic, without using our experience at all.

This is not about having expectations vs. no expectations.  It's about expectations vs. reality, or expectations vs. hopes

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I have always expected my wife to evolve, or to change gradually or to change due to hormonal changes. Perhaps she becomes afraid of something because of a bad experience. Perhaps she remembers something from her childhood. But unless she has a damage to her brain, I would expect the base of who she is, to be constant. I do not love her for her voluptous breasts or her cooking or any other single thing. Things may change and so may she, but the base will remain. 

 

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52 minutes ago, vega57 said:

This is not about having expectations vs. no expectations.  It's about expectations vs. reality, or expectations vs. hopes

If you shouldn't expect your partner to change or not change, per your previous post, there's nothing left but no expectations, is there? 

 

But since there always will be expectations, clearly it's best if they're grounded in the reality of what usually happens, say based on a huge, long running well respected research programme. Like, say, Kinsey. And we know Kinsey says that the norm (and hence a rational expectation) is that sexual activity slowly decreases over several decades, rather than dropping off a cliff soon after marriage.  That's not an expectation that nothing changes, but an understanding of how things will change, as a statistical norm. 

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8 hours ago, Starlit Sky said:

I feel like a "problem" with members of AVEN is that a few tend to believe that if at least one person in a mixed relationship between a sexual and an asexual is unhappy, then they should break up with them, no questions asked. It's unrealistic, it shows an ignorance of the in's and out's of a relationship, and at times it's even just cold. This problem IS NOT about how the members recognize in most cases a sexual is going to be more compatible sexually with another sexual--after all, to deny that would be faulty. Rather, I think the problem is that there are members who seem to think that if that one thing doesn't work out, then the whole thing should come tumbling down. That's not the case at all.

When that one thing is causing a lot of unhappiness in both partners (and it  always does, even though sometimes the sexual partner thinks the asexual partner is happy), then the whole thing should end.  Of course it's no "no questions asked"; the end usually comes after many years and much conversation.  What's cold is expecting both unhappy partners to  remain in that unhappy state just because the relationship shouldn't end.  

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15 minutes ago, Sally said:

When that one thing is causing a lot of unhappiness in both partners (and it  always does, even though sometimes the sexual partner thinks the asexual partner is happy), then the whole thing should end.  Of course it's no "no questions asked"; the end usually comes after many years and much conversation.  What's cold is expecting both unhappy partners to  remain in that unhappy state just because the relationship shouldn't end.  

Maybe the reason WHY that "one thing" causes so much unhappiness is because so much weight is put on it in the first place?  Or because the expectations are unreasonable? 

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5 hours ago, Sally said:

When that one thing is causing a lot of unhappiness in both partners (and it  always does, even though sometimes the sexual partner thinks the asexual partner is happy)

Given the frequency of 'I never knew sex was such a big deal and it makes no sense, why doesn't the world get over it' type posts from asexual partners, and the tendency of asexual partners to be blindsided when they find out their partners are miserable, I don't think it's *always*. 

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18 hours ago, Sally said:

When that one thing is causing a lot of unhappiness in both partners (and it  always does, even though sometimes the sexual partner thinks the asexual partner is happy), then the whole thing should end.  Of course it's no "no questions asked"; the end usually comes after many years and much conversation.  What's cold is expecting both unhappy partners to  remain in that unhappy state just because the relationship shouldn't end.  

I wasn't implying that it's ridiculous to say that every single person who comes on here with that story shouldn't break up with their partner. Sometimes it's the best way to go.

 

But there are multiple times when a person comes on here with that story, who are genuinely happy in their relationship, and simply don't want to break up with them. Because they're happy. And yet, many members of AVEN seem to not register that.

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