It's okay to be white (campaign)

[Yatogami]

29 minutes ago, Sally said:

I didn't say that at all, as of course you know.    Here's what I said:  " If there are more liberals than conservatives on AVEN (or vice versa), that's not AVEN's fault; it's simply the census on here. "

 

That's not bias.  That's not AVEN's fault.  It simply may mean that there are more liberal members than conservative members on AVEN.   There's nothing anyone can do about that, since AVEN doesn't demand political affiliations when it registers members.  As far as mods, the only time I come into contact with mods is when I 1) get nudged/warned or 2) read the declass threads.  From those experiences, I have no idea which mods are liberal and which are conservative, nor do I care.  

No, it's because Liberals are more prone to engage in identity politics. Nothing more. All the conservatives here are also moderates.

 

The reason it's so lacking in conservatives and moderares, is because of the reasons I mentioned above. Identity politics do not allow for discourse, and instead function on a hierarchy of oppression. 

[Ankh-Morpork]

6 hours ago, Yato said:

Only Conservatives lose jobs over their beliefs.

Do you have a source for this claim? I never heard about a conservative losing their job over their belief.

[CaptainYesterday]

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[CaptainYesterday]

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[Ankh-Morpork]

Yeah, well ...

 

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/apple-vp-of-diversity-and-inclusion-denise-young-smith-is-leaving/
 

Quote

It’s not quite clear, however, when exactly Young Smith decided she would leave Apple. But based on that timeline, it seems as though Young Smith made up her mind before those comments in Bogotá, Colombia for which she later apologized.

 

 

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ankh-Morpork]

16 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

That's PR speak. 

Even if this were true: A company has a legit interest that their spokespersons share their values in public. It's similar to a religion teacher losing their job because they are pro choice.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ankh-Morpork]

I already mentioned teachers who lost their jobs because they were too progressive.

 

I agree that more right-wing people lose their jobs, but that's only because they tend to share more offensive opinions publicly than liberals do.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ankh-Morpork]

10 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

rather than "we disagree with your politics, so you're fired, even though your politics have nothing to do with your job."

Her job was "vice president of diversity and inclusion", so her politics were clearly connected with her job.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[TheAP]

1 hour ago, CaptainYesterday said:

And some of us are labeled as conservatives (and have since had to embrace that label simply to make conversations easier) because the rest of this forum is so far left.

How so? I'd say the majority of people on the forum are left, but not overly so.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[TheAP]

5 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

I mean, I don't have a handy chart for every poster breaking down their beliefs, but things like "respecting gender pronouns" is a very far left idea.  You will find no great support for that in the general population in America.  If you go up to a random person and ask to be called a pronoun that they don't feel describes you, they will not and they will think you are weird for trying to force that on them.  If you tell them that you're "non binary," they will have no idea what that means.  If you ask them if pink toys for girls and blue toys for boys is offensive, they furrow their brow and ask "...why would they be?"

And that is why society sucks. Respecting pronouns should be common decency. In the past, most people probably believed that women shouldn't have the right to vote; does that mean that women's suffrage is a far-left belief?

 

Also, it isn't a "SJW" notion. SJW beliefs are things like thinking that it's okay to hate a group of people as long as it's a privileged group. 

 

This place isn't an echo chamber. If it was, there wouldn't be so many arguments.

 

Really, I sometimes find myself wishing that this place was more left-wing/"SJW"-ish.

[CaptainYesterday]

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[Ankh-Morpork]

1 minute ago, CaptainYesterday said:

The problem is people are trying, and in some cases unfortunately successfully making it law to use them.

That kinda disproves your "far left" claim, at least if you don't think that you have a far left government.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[TheAP]

21 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

The problem is people are trying, and in some cases unfortunately successfully making it law to use them.  Compelled speech.  That is wrong, and it turns otherwise supportive people against the cause.

I'm not sure about law, but I don't think people should be allowed to freely misgender people. But that's off topic, so I won't go too far into it.

 

22 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

At a certain point, perhaps, but this proposes the fallacy that because some far-left ideas have proven to be valid in the past that all far-left ideas are also valid, which is not the case.

No, I just said that because you argued that respecting pronouns was far-left because most people don't support or understand it.

 

23 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

Also using this logic, men's rights should be considered super-far-left, since they have even less support than suffragists did, and yet you will find no one on the left that supports such a thing.  Men's rights activists are instead attacked and called misogynists by these people.

No, both left-wing and right-wing beliefs can be unpopular. But being pro-feminism is generally considered left-wing.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[TheAP]

1 minute ago, CaptainYesterday said:

I think it's disingenuous to say that people who don't agree with you simply "don't understand it."

I got that idea from this:

 

1 hour ago, CaptainYesterday said:

If you go up to a random person and ask to be called a pronoun that they don't feel describes you, they will not and they will think you are weird for trying to force that on them.  If you tell them that you're "non binary," they will have no idea what that means.  If you ask them if pink toys for girls and blue toys for boys is offensive, they furrow their brow and ask "...why would they be?"

You said that the average person doesn't know much about non-binary genders. They might not disagree, they might just not be familiar with the concept.

 

3 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

You were equating "ideas that weren't popular" as being far-left, but that doesn't work.  Men's rights is very unpopular on both the left and the right (for different reasons), but it is certainly more attacked by the left, meaning it isn't considered "left" right now.

No, I wasn't; I was saying that just because an idea isn't widely accepted doesn't mean it's far-left or far-anything, using women's suffrage as an example.

[CaptainYesterday]

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[TheAP]

1 minute ago, CaptainYesterday said:

They don't know it because the idea isn't strong enough to have reached the mainstream.  It's been pushed for 3+ years now and most of them are still extremely obscure.  The marketplace of ideas apparently does not think that these notions are valid enough to reach the mainstream.

Mainstream acceptance of an idea isn't a good measure of how strong it is. Trans people are still pretty rare, and some people like to judge things just for being different.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ankh-Morpork]

21 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

It's a measure of how accepted it is, not how valid it is.  Right now these ideas aren't widely accepted, so they will be considered "far" of whatever party they belong in.

There's a huge difference between an idea that hardly anyone knows or an idea that is well known, but refused by most people. Non binary identities fall more in the former category than the latter.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ankh-Morpork]

1 minute ago, CaptainYesterday said:

Something cannot be "close to center" if 99% of people don't even know about it.

Every new idea starts like this. Are new ideas always far left/right?

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ankh-Morpork]

In this case I don't mind being far left. But I think my understanding of "far right/left" is more like "radical/ultra left/right".

[m4rble]

On 11/18/2017 at 5:41 PM, Yato said:

So you agree the political atmosphere is inherently biased, and favors liberals over conservatives. You just don't notice, because you're already Liberal and share a similar world view already.

 

I'm not whining. Why does everyone say that. Are you gonna say blacks complaining about institutionalized racism is also whining? Because it feels very similar.

 

What I mean about equality is that while liberals have the freedom to talk about anything to their hearts content. The moment a conservative made a thread on here like "I don't believe in gay marriage" they would be banned and or silenced. Or if a conservative didn't believe in any other gender but the binary, which is far far more common in conservatives. They would be banned for invalidation. They may have the power to say these things as "opinions" but they have no power to discuss them in depth. So there is nothing to keep in check, the chaotic identity politics, definitions etc. Because discourse isn't allowed on any of these subjects, because they are believed to be a given/fact. There is no way to check validity on anything. So it's believe, and don't question anything for the sake of protecting people. With little to no evidence to back up claims other than feelings. 

There are many threads about how people or anti-gay or against gay marriage, so the claim that people can't make those arguments here is demonstrably false. There is also nothing stopping people from questioning the binary(or rather questioning questioning it I suppose) . It's only invalidation when they directly challenge the identity of another user, but questioning the concept in general is fine.