Jump to content

It's okay to be white (campaign)


Yatogami

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Tarfeather said:

Thing is, you can't. Studies and the like are carried out and published by humans. Humans will be influenced by all kinds of things. We live in a system with a certain power structure to it, hence why pretty much anything in our society is biased in a certain way. For instance, you won't find much actual research on communism and other alternative economic systems, because obviously the scientists are being paid by people who have a vested interest in keeping the current capitalist system running. Likewise, the reason you can even find studies that question climate change, or somehow say it's okay to continue burning fossile fuels, is because the energy industry is willing to cash out big to anyone who can support their narrative.

 

Sure, the scientific community is set up in such a way that it's not entirely possible to just tell outright lies for the most part. But you can twist and bias and muddy the waters until crucial insights are drowned out, and the status quo can carry on.

I get that much. They did that with lead in the past from what I remember. There was a lot of scientists claiming that lead was harmless to humans so that the lead industry could continue to dominate, but then some other scientists began doing their own research, came to different conclusions, and over time finally got the truth out. So, yeah, human greed can corrupt the scientific method.

 

That said, though, it's also led to too many objective truths. It's practically the only way to reach objective truth. Just because humans can misuse something doesn't mean that something is untrustworthy. To me, there's nothing more trustworthy. You just have to keep an open mind, and if someone come out with an alternate theory, hear it out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Groobly said:

That said, though, it's also led to too many objective truths. It's practically the only way to reach objective truth. Just because humans can misuse something doesn't mean that something is untrustworthy. To me, there's nothing more trustworthy. You just have to keep an open mind, and if someone come out with an alternate theory, hear it out.

Meh, I'm kind of a philosophy and information theory nerd. In my opinion, "objective truth" is a myth. Yes, even in theoretical subjects like maths. The best we can do is say "If X is true, then Y", but even the most fundamental mechanisms of logic can never be proven true, just assumed.

 

What you have to do is just question everything. You seem to do that anyway, so I'm not sure why you worry about something being "trustworthy". Like, if all the scientific community says one thing, but you make a personal experience that contradicts what they say, you'd believe your own experience (i.e. data) over what the scientific community says, right? So maybe that's your point. The scientific method itself is trustworthy. I agree with that. It's just that you can't trust other people, or yourself even, to carry it out correctly.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17.11.2017 at 4:00 AM, Yato said:

This, they do it because they like triggering people.

How does that lead to good discussions? In my experience offended people are less willing to discuss constructively.

 

On 17.11.2017 at 4:24 AM, Yato said:

Real debating doesn't happen anymore. For the same reasons it is hindered here. 

So what's happening in this thread? No real debate?

 

On 17.11.2017 at 4:37 AM, Yato said:

What makes 4chan better though, is that insults don't do anything. Because if you are debating on 4chan, you have already had to overcome the worst insults imaginable. 

This also leads to a non representative group.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, CaptainYesterday said:

Let me write a template for these colleges on how to handle this tactfully:

 

"There is nothing wrong with being white or with being any race, gender, sexual orientation, or any other personal trait.  The University of [Wherever] is not aware of any widespread or systemic discrimination targeting white people on our campus that would necessitate such a statement to be made, but if ever such a thing were to occur, then we are prepared to take action against it just as we would against any form of discrimination against any group."

How hard is that?  Either I'm a genius and they should all hire me on retainer, or they are just really that bad.

Mm.. Why would a university issue such a statement, though? It's something I could imagine a political group or party at a univerity to say, but not a university administration itself. Universities are mostly concerned with practical issues, at least around here. Then again, I did always consider it weird that in the US speakers would be disinvited. That's not really a thing that happens in Germany.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ankh-Morpork said:

How does that lead to good discussions? In my experience offended people are less willing to discuss constructively.

 

So what's happening in this thread? No real debate?

 

This also leads to a non representative group.

You can't offend anyone who stays on 4chan. That is the point. Since no one is offended about anything. You can talk about anything.

 

No this site is absolute shit for debating because "muh safespace".

 

Don't know what you mean by non representative group.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Yato said:

You can't offend anyone who stays on 4chan. That is the point.

The "it's okay to be white" signs were posted outside of 4chan, though. I can't see how that action could lead to better discussions.

 

8 minutes ago, Yato said:

Don't know what you mean by non representative group.

People who are not offended by 4chan tend to come from specific groups, so a couple of opinions are not really represented at 4chan.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ankh-Morpork said:

The "it's okay to be white" were posted outside of 4chan, though. I can't see how that action could lead to better discussions.

 

People who are not offended by 4chan tend to come from specific groups, so a couple of opinions are not really represented at 4chan.

The signs were specifically designed not to offend anyone. The people who got offended were secretly racist. That was the entire point.

 

4chan does a ton of good too you know. They are chaotic, but not evil. 4chan has more diversity than most sites too. You are probably not aware, but some of the boards have "flags" that show you peoples geographical location. 4chan has member's from across the world. It also has an LGBT community.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Yato said:

The signs were specifically designed not to offend anyone. The people who got offended were secretly racist. That was the entire point.

If they the designers really wanted to make non offensive signs, they failed miserably. The signs are offensive, because they provide no context. They could mean anything, so it was to be expected that other people (who don't know the origin) will read an offensive meaning into the sign. With the recent uprise of white supremacists it's not that surprising how the signs were perceived.

 

Maybe it's the chaotic side of 4chan that turns me off. It's too uncomfortable to read, I miss the structure and I see too much anonymous posters. Reddit is more organized than that. I grew up with Usenet groups (and still participiate despite the user drain in the last years). They are unmoderated, but you still find constructive, respectful discussions and the structure makes it much more comfortable to read.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the whole campaign did exactly what it was supposed to do - troll the SJWs, racist and leftist people. The only thing that really made me sad about it was that people actually felt offended. But then again, it's 2017, where everyone is offended by everything and everyone, even more than in 2016.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ankh-Morpork said:

If they the designers really wanted to make non offensive signs, they failed miserably. The signs are offensive, because they provide no context. They could mean anything, so it was to be expected that other people (who don't know the origin) will read an offensive meaning into the sign. With the recent uprise of white supremacists it's not that surprising how the signs were perceived.

 

Maybe it's the chaotic side of 4chan that turns me off. It's too uncomfortable to read, I miss the structure and I see too much anonymous posters. Reddit is more organized than that. I grew up with Usenet groups (and still participiate despite the user drain in the last years). They are unmoderated, but you still find constructive, respectful discussions and the structure makes it much more comfortable to read.

Being anonymous removes certain factors of people's identities, so they cannot be used as leverage. Thus creating true equality. Which is why they have the "tits or gtfo" rule, because there exists no gender identity there, and everyone pretends to be a white male. Since saying you are X, gives nothing to the conversation and removes anecdotal evidence entirely unless one provides proof. Usually in the form of a picture with a timestamp. 4channers are experts at calling out bullshit and Photoshops as well.

 

This is honestly just preference. I see it as yin and yang, and both places (4chan and the rest of social media) balance out the internet discourse. But I personally think 4chan is incredibly unique in its influence and culture. I feel Reddit is just a watered down version. 4chan will always do more, and do it better than Reddit. Reddit is just nicer to newcomers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Yato I can see the advantages of a place where class, gender and ethnicity don't matter because nobody is supposed to tell. And I agree: it's just preference and I prefer pseudonyms and a posting history.

 

But why do you think that Reddit is a watered down version - and not just something different? I mostly read and post in smaller subreddits like /r/de or /r/Austria so my view may be biased, but they are very comfortable to discuss even highly divisive topics.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ankh-Morpork said:

@Yato I can see the advantages of a place where class, gender and ethnicity don't matter because nobody is supposed to tell. And I agree: it's just preference and I prefer pseudonyms and a posting history.

 

But why do you think that Reddit is a watered down version - and not just something different? I mostly read and post in smaller subreddits like /r/de or /r/Austria so my view may be biased, but they are very comfortable to discuss even highly divisive topics.

Because there is a lot of crossboarding. Redditors will come to 4chan, and vice versa. Reddit steals a lot of ideas from 4chan, or shares a lot of content from it. 4channers can also spot a Redditor based on how they post on 4chan. Reddit censors a lot of content as well. Such as shutting down anything Trump related (after r/thedonald became too controversial etc), and the mods having a biased approach in the political and news boards. 

 

Does Reddit have it's own culture? Yes, but I feel it's largely mediocre and not as fun as 4chan. Because I absolutely hate PC culture. (I used to use Imgur though) I like to talk about even the worse subjects, because I like thinking about what ifs and I think it's good to know the logic behind things you disagree with. Even the worst of things. And you can't have those discussions anywhere but 4chan. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

its not racist that i was born white...

its not racist to be happy about it. i wouldnt say im proud to be white that just strange cause being white is kinda great...

im proud to be female, Australian, a wog, an athlete and so on 

but to say its racist doesnt make sense. 

 

why do people even care what skin colour they are...like cant we just move on from skin. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, miettaisace said:

its not racist that i was born white...

its not racist to be happy about it. i wouldnt say im proud to be white that just strange cause being white is kinda great...

im proud to be female, Australian, a wog, an athlete and so on 

but to say its racist doesnt make sense. 

 

why do people even care what skin colour they are...like cant we just move on from skin. 

It's not about the color, but about the culture and history. Many people hate white people because of slavery and colonialism. Despite only 1% of them owning slaves, and some white countries never even participating in it. Not every white person is of decent of colonialists either. They are blaming people that might not have anything to do with it, and constantly using them as scapegoats for their lives being poor. Which I find to be actually racist. The Irish got the short stick on every draw. They may not have been full on slaves in the USA, but they were slaves in Europe and in colonies across the world. They were not colonialists of any non-white counties. But get blamed for slavery regardless.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yato said:

Because there is a lot of crossboarding. Redditors will come to 4chan, and vice versa. Reddit steals a lot of ideas from 4chan, or shares a lot of content from it. 4channers can also spot a Redditor based on how they post on 4chan. Reddit censors a lot of content as well. Such as shutting down anything Trump related (after r/thedonald became too controversial etc), and the mods having a biased approach in the political and news boards. 

 

Does Reddit have it's own culture? Yes, but I feel it's largely mediocre and not as fun as 4chan. Because I absolutely hate PC culture. (I used to use Imgur though) I like to talk about even the worse subjects, because I like thinking about what ifs and I think it's good to know the logic behind things you disagree with. Even the worst of things. And you can't have those discussions anywhere but 4chan. 

What do you want to talk about? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Yato said:

 The people who got offended were secretly racist.

If they're secretly racist then you wouldn't know because it would be secret. Getting offended at something like this isn't enough to prove someone is a racist. 

 

2 hours ago, Yato said:

Being anonymous removes certain factors of people's identities, so they cannot be used as leverage. Thus creating true equality. Which is why they have the "tits or gtfo" rule, because there exists no gender identity there, and everyone pretends to be a white male. Since saying you are X, gives nothing to the conversation and removes anecdotal evidence entirely unless one provides proof. Usually in the form of a picture with a timestamp. 4channers are experts at calling out bullshit and Photoshops as well.

 

This is honestly just preference. I see it as yin and yang, and both places (4chan and the rest of social media) balance out the internet discourse. But I personally think 4chan is incredibly unique in its influence and culture. I feel Reddit is just a watered down version. 4chan will always do more, and do it better than Reddit. Reddit is just nicer to newcomers.

Why does everyone pretend to be a white male on 4chan? Demanding to see tits doesn't seem like it was meant to promote equality. What's more, if everyone pretends to be a white male, how do you know 4chan is as diverse as you claim it is? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yato said:

Does Reddit have it's own culture? Yes, but I feel it's largely mediocre and not as fun as 4chan. Because I absolutely hate PC culture. (I used to use Imgur though) I like to talk about even the worse subjects, because I like thinking about what ifs and I think it's good to know the logic behind things you disagree with. Even the worst of things. And you can't have those discussions anywhere but 4chan. 

Hm, maybe the German language subs are different. You can discuss everything there, as long as you follow some basic rules like "don't flame, don't doxx, don't spam, don't break the law". The English subs I read are mostly non political, so that's a different matter.

 

The_Donald had many illegal comments, so I understand why reddit shut it down.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tarfeather said:

Meh, I'm kind of a philosophy and information theory nerd. In my opinion, "objective truth" is a myth. Yes, even in theoretical subjects like maths. The best we can do is say "If X is true, then Y", but even the most fundamental mechanisms of logic can never be proven true, just assumed.

 

What you have to do is just question everything. You seem to do that anyway, so I'm not sure why you worry about something being "trustworthy". Like, if all the scientific community says one thing, but you make a personal experience that contradicts what they say, you'd believe your own experience (i.e. data) over what the scientific community says, right? So maybe that's your point. The scientific method itself is trustworthy. I agree with that. It's just that you can't trust other people, or yourself even, to carry it out correctly.

I disagree there. 2 + 2 will always = 4. That's an objective truth. Math is often called the universal language because of just how universally it can be applied to things, and I'm inclined to agree. I'm shit at math, so I'm not about to get into the complexities of it, but I am a believer in objective truth myself, and I think the sciences are the means of obtaining them.

 

I personally hold scientific truth over personal experience. My human perception can be limited and skewed by many things that make my own personal experiences just as untrustworthy as you consider scientific consensus. I am a very skeptical person, and I do question many things, but at the same time I'm also a person who likes knowing things, and while I'll always be questioning things, there's just some things that aren't worth questioning, because they are facts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2017 at 9:38 PM, Yato said:

Because AVEN defines what is "correct" and what isn't. That doesn't allow for an equal platform for all ideas. Since its a safe space. 

Ye gods, Yato, all sorts of ideas are put forth on AVEN.  That's why we have arguments: because  human beings disagree with each other.  

 

If you're talking about political ideas -- which these days means liberal/progressive v. conservative -- an "equal"  platform is a misnomer.  If you express conservative ideas and liberals disagree with you, or if you express liberal ideas and conservatives disagree, that's not inequality; that's simply disagreement.  If there are more liberals than conservatives on AVEN (or vice versa), that's not AVEN's fault; it's simply the census on here.  I was a liberal/socialist before I came to AVEN; this site didn't influence me.   There's no point in whining about people disagreeing with you and claiming that it's because AVEN is trying to stifle argument.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2017 at 12:34 AM, Eureka. Immense. said:

White privilege is something I encourage you to explore at the library and in scholarly articles about critical race theory. I'm not interested in offending anyone further. 

In a gist it's an advantage in access to quality education, housing, justice, having your history and culture considered the "norm", represented in all forms of media across the world in a generally positive light, and socio-economic inequality. It's a long and complicated history in injustice and inequality not just in the states but across the world. 

 

 

Uh, when it comes to the history of the white race, whites are singled out to be made to feel bad for the sin of our ancestors. Were it not for other people, I would have been homeless multiple times. My "white privilege" didn't help me. White culture is not considered the norm. So many times whites are labeled as trailer trash or inbred or even neanderthals. With regards to poverty, some of the poorest parts of the United States are the mostly white areas of Appalachia. Those folks are often met with contempt. Yet, poor, mostly black inner-city areas are the focus of so much sympathy. Even worse is that educated and successful blacks are often said to act or be too white.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sally said:

Ye gods, Yato, all sorts of ideas are put forth on AVEN.  That's why we have arguments: because  human beings disagree with each other.  

 

If you're talking about political ideas -- which these days means liberal/progressive v. conservative -- an "equal"  platform is a misnomer.  If you express conservative ideas and liberals disagree with you, or if you express liberal ideas and conservatives disagree, that's not inequality; that's simply disagreement.  If there are more liberals than conservatives on AVEN (or vice versa), that's not AVEN's fault; it's simply the census on here.  I was a liberal/socialist before I came to AVEN; this site didn't influence me.   There's no point in whining about people disagreeing with you and claiming that it's because AVEN is trying to stifle argument.  

So you agree the political atmosphere is inherently biased, and favors liberals over conservatives. You just don't notice, because you're already Liberal and share a similar world view already.

 

I'm not whining. Why does everyone say that. Are you gonna say blacks complaining about institutionalized racism is also whining? Because it feels very similar.

 

What I mean about equality is that while liberals have the freedom to talk about anything to their hearts content. The moment a conservative made a thread on here like "I don't believe in gay marriage" they would be banned and or silenced. Or if a conservative didn't believe in any other gender but the binary, which is far far more common in conservatives. They would be banned for invalidation. They may have the power to say these things as "opinions" but they have no power to discuss them in depth. So there is nothing to keep in check, the chaotic identity politics, definitions etc. Because discourse isn't allowed on any of these subjects, because they are believed to be a given/fact. There is no way to check validity on anything. So it's believe, and don't question anything for the sake of protecting people. With little to no evidence to back up claims other than feelings. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Yato No, liberals can't talk about anything. There can't be a thread about how men are pigs or how Christians are stupid, etc. (not saying I believe these things)

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, TheAP said:

@Yato No, liberals can't talk about anything. There can't be a thread about how men are pigs or how Christians are stupid, etc. (not saying I believe these things)

Implying a Liberal would make threads of this nature to begin with. :P

 

Liberals are too nice for that. 

 

But Liberals have Tumblr, YouTube, Twitter, and just about any other social media site to vent in. Conservatives don't get the same luxury on any social media. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Yato said:

The moment a conservative made a thread on here like "I don't believe in gay marriage" they would be banned and or silenced.

In this thread some people don't believe in gay marriage and they are neither banned, nor silenced.

 

19 minutes ago, Yato said:

Conservatives don't get the same luxury on any social media. 

What about Facebook? At least in Europe conservative and even far right people can say almost anything they want on Facebook, quite a few times Facebook even doesn't care about illegal comments (Facebook doesn't seem to care about complaints, but the moment you post some pictures that might offend conservatives they get removed). No wonder that Facebook discussions seem to be more popular in conservative / right wing groups.

 

The comment sections of many online news portals are not that different (except that their moderators seem to care more about illegal comments).

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Yato said:

Implying a Liberal would make threads of this nature to begin with. :P

 

Liberals are too nice for that. 

Depends on how you define liberal, I guess. I include the "SJW" kind of people under liberal.

 

41 minutes ago, Yato said:

But Liberals have Tumblr, YouTube, Twitter, and just about any other social media site to vent in. Conservatives don't get the same luxury on any social media. 

Conservatives do too. Even on Tumblr, which has a reputation for being left-wing, conservatives can express their opinions and find like-minded people. Sure, they may get argued with and attacked if people disagree with them, but there's nothing actually stopping them. The ToS is very loose compared to sites like AVEN.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TheAP said:

Depends on how you define liberal, I guess. I include the "SJW" kind of people under liberal.

 

Conservatives do too. Even on Tumblr, which has a reputation for being left-wing, conservatives can express their opinions and find like-minded people. Sure, they may get argued with and attacked if people disagree with them, but there's nothing actually stopping them. The ToS is very loose compared to sites like AVEN.

Only Conservatives lose jobs over their beliefs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Yato said:

So you agree the political atmosphere is inherently biased, and favors liberals over conservatives. 

I didn't say that at all, as of course you know.    Here's what I said:  " If there are more liberals than conservatives on AVEN (or vice versa), that's not AVEN's fault; it's simply the census on here. "

 

That's not bias.  That's not AVEN's fault.  It simply may mean that there are more liberal members than conservative members on AVEN.   There's nothing anyone can do about that, since AVEN doesn't demand political affiliations when it registers members.  As far as mods, the only time I come into contact with mods is when I 1) get nudged/warned or 2) read the declass threads.  From those experiences, I have no idea which mods are liberal and which are conservative, nor do I care.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...