A Difficult Dialogue (Monologue)

[closetPonyfan]

The following is a letter I've just composed and I'm wishing I had some liquid courage to send while at the same time I feel ashamed of writing it instead of saying it. I hate myself for my cowardice but - well anyway here it is.

 

We need to talk.

 

No, we've tried that. I need to talk. I need you to hear me out. You used to ask me, particularly in the worst throws of your depression, why I stayed with you. It's true that I never had an honest answer. I made a vow and it didn't even cross my mind that it was renegotiable. You've said before that ideas of 'honor' or 'duty' are bullshit and archaic. I don't agree with that in the slightest. I recognize fundamentally that we have different world-views and I am okay with that. I am willing to accept that we view the world differently and let you decide what you want to do with your time so long as I can pursue my interests as well. I grant that you've only ever been supportive of me in all my endeavors, and that this has, on more than one occasion, gotten us into what looks like a deeper hole than we were in previously.  I honestly do not know if you understand that these were all steps towards an eventual 'better' life or if you regard them as my being irresponsible and impulsive. I appreciate that whatever you thought of me or my ideas, you stuck with me. You were supportive emotionally as well as administratively and honestly I could not have gotten to where I am today without you. 

 

So I want to express that I truly do appreciate your always being there with me, as I was with you. While I'm at it I want to reinforce that I do love and care for you as a person. 

I mentioned our diverging world views: I don't mean political opinion but rather philosophical outlook on the nature of the world and the fundamental reality of human existence in it. I don't want to get into a discussion about the differences here as I know you aren't interested in doing so and it will rapidly drive us into a ditch - but I do need to say a couple of things. I should not be so arrogant as to say that I understand your perspective, but I am just bull-headed enough to want to pick it apart and I recognize that this hurts you (in a sense). Again, I've no interest in doing that here. I only want to say that while I do (too) often find myself looking for a thread to pull or a button to press, fundamentally I'm willing to accept that we have a difference of perspective and I can respect yours while not fully seeing it. I said all that to say this; I regularly find myself feeling as though you don't return the same courtesy. Now right away I recognize that this will sound like bullshit because I'm constantly trying to discredit your world view in favor of my own, while you're more than happy to never bring it up at all. I understand what you mean by that - and I know that I'm not articulating myself well but let me try to explain it without interruption.

You know I'm very curious, and you know that I love having discussions on such big ideas. I know that you aren't and don't. When I'm poking and prodding, or even attacking a proposed perspective it isn't to "beat it", "disprove it" etc, but rather to provoke the discussion in a bit of a Socratic method to discover all aspects of it. I understand that you have difficulty with this sort of discussion because you are often unable to articulate or keep track of your thoughts. I see how frustrating that is for you and how exhausting such arguments are, and I fully understand why you would feel attacked. For my part I can only apologize sincerely for putting you through that when I know that you hate it, that it hurts you. My behavior in this regard is, in some sense, unforgivable - especially because I Keep Doing The Same Thing. I hope you can see that I'm not doing it to attack you, but because I enjoy the pursuit of a broader perspective, but I digress. 

 

When I say that I feel as though you don't respect my perspective for what it is, what I mean by that is your opinion (possibly informed by your perspective) pits a moral judgement against my world view in its entirety. You (and I to some degree) are a very agreeable person and do not pursue conflicts. That said your opinion (while often kept to yourself) is that my philosophical outlook is actually immoral. Even though you generally make a point to avoid such conflicts, when they do arise (or even if they absolutely never did) I still feel as though it's my moral character being called into question. To be clear, I don't object to having my moral character examined, from time to time, with respect to a specific decision, but to feel constantly judged for having the perspective that I do is, frankly, annoying. I recognize at this point it's precisely parallel to having your intellectual authenticity challenged in the same regard (I immediately want to rationalize away the difference but I'll hold my tongue in this instance.)

To bring this to a more concrete discussion instead of a philosophical one - Fundamentally I don't feel as though we emotionally connect anymore, and I'm not sure if we ever really did. When you first articulated aromanticism I was thrown into turmoil because I didn't understand what it meant for us on a sentimental level (You actively reject the presupposition that such is at all important and you mock the idea of a feeling of 'love'.) I tried for a long time to convince myself that I could accept that - that nothing would physically change at all, and that love was mostly verbal commitment rather than any kind of spiritual connection. While I can perfectly articulate this idea (and support the argument quite convincingly, if I do say so myself.)  I simply cannot deny the painful hole left in the absence of any emotional attachment. You may have never "felt" love ("fairy dust") and so it may not make sense to you, I get that, but I did - and I no longer do. I haven't for a long time.

 

The discussion of children is still weighing on my mind as well. I recognize here that it's partly both our faults for not discussing kids before we got married, and that it's mostly my fault for not fully articulating my opinion on the matter when we were discussing sterilization - that said the past is the past and I see no reason to re-litigate it. The bottom line is I tried to convince myself that I could essentially re-orient my life trajectory to be happy without kids. This was particularly foolish and arrogant. Over the last couple of years my desire to have kids has only increased - and I know that it offends your world view but I do not think that adoption will be sufficient in this matter. I want to pass on my genetic legacy. I want to produce at least two if not three children and would like to get started in the next two-to-five years. The idea of "adopting one to see how it goes and then consider having one" sounds like a practical and well negotiated compromise. In a purely logical world perhaps that would be the best solution - but I can't deny that at a very deep, basic level I feel a desire to produce offspring. It isn't a matter of thinking, in this regard. If it were strictly about what I think is best I'd honestly forfeit the idea of having any kids at all ever because they take an enormous amount of time, energy, money, etc. I don't "think" I want kids, I feel an urge to have them. Raising an adopted kid would be like raising a puppy as far as this feeling is concerned. When I mention that I often feel like my world view is attacked on a moral level, this is part of that. I feel as though I'm judged for having these feelings. It stems from philosophical outlook that to produce genetic offspring is one of the few lasting legacies of any person, and I absolutely want to partake in that. To donate to a sperm bank for some other person to have the kid would satisfy this desire more so than adopting would. It isn't precisely that I want to raise a kid, though I do think I'd enjoy that part, it's that I want to contribute to the future. I understand that you do not wish to be part of that contribution for very serious reasons that you have laid out, and you don't wish to raise a child for equally serious and valid reasons. Truly I think it a tragedy that we didn't discuss this before we were married but such is where we are now. 

 

Finally I want to address the compromise(s) we've established. I really do appreciate what you've tried to do in negotiating on certain aspects of the relationship so that I can seek a more complete emotional and sexual relationship. For most people this would have been a very difficult discussion to have and I was genuinely excited to explore this option at first. However whenever I think about it I once again find myself in conflict with my own logical arguments butting up against what seems to be my more "basic" nature. 

 

(Here again, it seems to me that even the proposition of the existence of a "basic nature" is offensive to your world view. I'm sympathetic to this as I know it makes this all the more difficult to hear, but the fact of the matter is 'Life is Suffering'. Fundamentally what that means is that you can deny everything about reality that you want. Indeed you can make very potent logical arguments to absolutely destroy everything but the empirical world - but the one thing you can't deny is suffering. When I turn my back on these feelings - longing for children, wanting for love, and indeed desire for a more traditional style of relationship, I suffer emotionally as well as physically.)

 

I don't know how to pursue the kind of relationships that we've discussed. I do not want a non-traditional relationship. This is not due to a socialized stigma against the idea. Indeed it isn't even directly a rejection with a poly-amorous relationships generally. I do not think, or feel, as though there is any problem with them - it just isn't what I want. (Am I allowed to have wants?) There is nothing wrong with people pursuing whatever form of relationship, or lack there of, that they want - and building from that premise, what I want is a more "traditional" family relationship. 

 

I immediately feel as though this was harsh, but I want it to stand as is because I recognize it's important to be as open and blunt as possible. With all of this laid out I do not want, nor do I think it the best idea, to think of this moment as the time to immediately decide if we're going to continue as we are, make some changes, or separate entirely. I want this to be the start of a discussion about what is the best move. In all honesty - the thought has intruded upon my mind off-and-on many times in the last year or so. In truth, I'm terrified - but I've concluded every single time that probably the best move in the long run is eventual separation. I've avoided thinking about that prospect as much as possible but when I started going to counseling, and really confronting a lot of stuff I'd been putting off thinking about, I felt it was time to figure out how to address it. The idea that keeps playing through my mind now, after more than a week of contemplation, is that the easiest thing for everyone may be a slow, gradual growing apart until we are ready to fully separate. How long that takes or what it looks like I'm not entirely sure but some concrete things have begun to formulate in my mind without my consent. Obviously I would understand if there was an immediate cessation of all sexual relations in any capacity, even sleeping on the couch has occurred to me as a real possibility.  How to address finances and living space in the most fair manner is something we'd have to discuss obviously - I just hope that as we do so you not forget that I do love you, and truly want what's best for both of us. Also I'm not in a particular hurry to make any changes within the year, or even two.  If its easier for us and for our respective families, I could even conceive of living together for two or three years still, finishing college and ensuring that we both have an exist strategy before we finally part. 

 

Look, I'm getting ahead of myself - If we can find things to mend, if you do want to see what, if anything, we can change or just whatever you want to talk about I'm all ears. I've said my piece and I think you know about where I'm at now. At this point I want to hear your thoughts - though I understand if you want to take a while before responding. 

 

I'm terrified. 

I love you.

I'm so sorry.

[Telecaster68]

Are you looking for comments on it?

[Treesarepretty]

@closetPonyfan, I think that you should edit your post to ask people not to quote so that you can delete this letter and rewrite it if you decide to do that. It would cause confusion to have several versions of the same letter in the top post versus responses that quote earlier versions. 

 

Also, what @Telecaster68 said. 

[closetPonyfan]

@Telecaster This was mostly my rambling at 2 AM but I hope that it might help some people formulate their thoughts. I wouldn't mind feedback - I mean obviously nobody has full insight into the complexities of anyone else's relationships but it couldn't hurt. I haven't decided yet if I want to get into this conversation with my wife - this was my first attempt to articulate (mostly to myself) what I'm thinking and feeling and will decide probably over the next couple weeks if I want to take the leap, so to speak.

 

@Treesarepretty I have two copies saved locally and if I decided to go forward with the conversation the next step would be deciding if I want to scrap this format in favor of just trying to have it out as a conversation.

[Traveler40]

I can see you’re in pain for which I’m sorry to hear.  While attempting to wade through this letter, I felt it could certainly be cleaner and to the point. Eventually you bring it home, however from point A to B it’s more complicated than perhaps you intend.  Maybe you could TALK with her and use an outline to keep it on track.  It’s hard when dealing with emotions, disillusionment and possibly the end.  There are no “good” words, but generally it’s best said in my experience.  

[Treesarepretty]

9 hours ago, closetPonyfan said:

@Treesarepretty I have two copies saved locally and if I decided to go forward with the conversation the next step would be deciding if I want to scrap this format in favor of just trying to have it out as a conversation.

If you can't have this in a conversation and need to do it in letter form, like you wrote here, then why would you consider trying to get all this out in a conversation yet again? 

 

I agree with @Traveler40 that you should cut a lot of stuff out of this letter and rearrange the paragraphs, and maybe some of the sentences, if you are going to give this to your wife. 

 

I also think that this letter would piss off just about anyone, so you can forget about the two to three year timeline of disentangling yourselves civily if the ultimate end is divorce. That is even more true if she is supporting you through your degree (it isn't clear which of you are in college, if not both). 

 

I will edit the letter, with your permission, and post the results in a day or two. 

[Telecaster68]

Here's my bash: 

 

 

I love you. I’m terrified. We need to talk.

I don't feel as though we emotionally connect anymore, and I'm not sure if we ever really did.

 

When you first articulated aromanticism I was thrown into turmoil because I didn't understand what it meant for us on a sentimental level. I tried for a long time to convince myself that I could accept that - that nothing would physically change at all, and that love was mostly verbal commitment rather than any kind of spiritual connection, but I simply cannot deny the painful hole left in the absence of any emotional attachment. You may have never "felt" love ("fairy dust") and so it may not make sense to you, I get that, but I did - and I no longer do. I haven't for a long time.
 

I really do appreciate what you've tried to do in negotiating on certain aspects of the relationship so that I can seek a more complete emotional and sexual relationship. For most people this would have been a very difficult discussion to have and I was genuinely excited to explore this option at first. However whenever I think about it I once again find myself in conflict with my own logical arguments butting up against what seems to be my more "basic" nature. I don't know how to pursue the kind of relationships that we've discussed. I do not want a non-traditional relationship. It just isn't what I want and I am allowed to have wants.What I want is a more "traditional" family relationship.
 

I want this to be the start of a discussion about what is the best move. The idea that keeps playing through my mind now, after more than a week of contemplation, is that the easiest thing for everyone may be a slow, gradual growing apart until we are ready to fully separate.  How to address finances and living space in the most fair manner is something we'd have to discuss obviously. I'm not in a particular hurry to make any changes within the year, or even two.  If it's easier for us and for our respective families, I could even conceive of living together for two or three years still, finishing college and ensuring that we both have an exist strategy before we finally part.

 

But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself - if we can find things to mend, if you do want to see what, if anything, we can change or just whatever you want to talk about I'm all ears. I've said my piece and I think you know about where I'm at now. At this point I want to hear your thoughts - though I understand if you want to take a while before responding.
 

I just hope that as we do so you not forget that I do love you, and truly want what's best for both of us.

[closetPonyfan]

Multiple people have said that in reading it they see a sense of pain. Which is perplexing to me because when I wrote it, and when I contemplate the subject matter I don't really feel that so much, or if I do I'm certainly not recognizing it. I do feel like I am, in a sense, isolating myself from pursuing certain adventures that I might if I weren't married, and I suppose there's a feeling of longing for those kinds of things, or a mild sorrow in their absence. 

 

@Telecaster68 so cutting out all the bits about the philosophical outlook being different and this difference ultimately being the biggest strain on my emotional integration with the relationship? That's an interesting thought. Is that because bringing it up just causes more conflict that really has little to no hope of being resolved or is there another reason I'm over looking?

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've semi-decided that I'll try for a week to find another way to interpret the situation as a whole before going forward with expressing the letter to my wife but at this point it doesn't seem likely that we'll find a workable solution.

[Telecaster68]

Yep exactly... You're just taking the focus away from the stuff yiu want to discuss, and that's substantial enough. 

[Treesarepretty]

@closetPonyfan, if you want to include the world view differences because it bothers you a lot then you should limit it to just 3 or 4 sentences, maximum, and give it its own paragraph. 

[closetPonyfan]

Well we talked it over and decided on a separation. So we're moving towards that now, but agreed, for the sake of many of the logistical things, to do it gradually.

[Guest]

I'm sorry. Separation is hard, but in the end if you aren't fulfilled, it will be for the better. I left a ten year relationship and honestly, I am glad cause I would have never met the wonderful person (who is compatible with me ) if I hadn't. So remember as you do it, you are opening up great opportunities, even if closing this one chapter of your life .