Sea Lemon Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Fioryn said: Hopefully the wording gets changed in the article. I just looked and it has been now Link to post Share on other sites
Welsh Ace Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Fair play to the author for getting it corrected and well done on getting it corrected. Shows what being reasonable and polite can achieve when the other person is open minded and willing to admit they made an error. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jetsun Milarepa Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Well, I've stopped reading the news...as the saying goes 'You pays your money, you takes your choice' when it comes to newspapers. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 When I read "Doing it wrong..." I got this vivid image of a confused and frustrated guy putting his ding-dong in someone's armpit (to those who have that fetish, no offense intended). Maybe this is slicing it too fine on semantics, but I have always considered my asexuality more a sexual orientation than a "condition" or "identity." "Condition" suggests medical/psychological reasons for lack of interest, as discussed. "Identity" suggests something subjective or arbitrary. I identify as a democrat or as Steve. Both those can change without changing my fundamental nature in any way. But asexuality has been the way I've related to sex since before adolescence. It never felt like something assigned, either by me or someone else. It has felt like how I was "oriented" in the world. But maybe that's just me. Link to post Share on other sites
Acing It Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 6 hours ago, sea-lemon said: Some good news... I tweeted her (it was the only form of contact listed) and she apologised for the wording and asked whether 'identity' would work better. Win! (I hope) Fantastic, well done! A shame she didn't delete the word 'men' linked to the 1.5% while she was at it, but at least she's someone who takes advice. Link to post Share on other sites
Mermaidy Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 11 hours ago, sea-lemon said: Some good news... I tweeted her (it was the only form of contact listed) and she apologised for the wording and asked whether 'identity' would work better. Win! (I hope) if the author knows asexuality is a sexual orientation, then she should just refer to it as a sexual orientation. her first wording of it as a condition sounds to me like she doesn't even know it's a SO like hetero/homo/etcsexuality Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Sorry to burst anyone's bubble - but asexuality most certainly is a condition! The fact that we are all on a forum talking about it means it's a problem. The simple fact is that something is broken in us - either physical or psychological. It's only a problem if you see it as one though. I fully accept that it is a condition and if I could cure it I would cure it in a second, I'm sure 99.9% of the rest of you would as well. The only difference is that I accept my asexuality - it doesn't cause me any distress or anguish. I wish I was a millionaire but I'm not, no big deal. I wish I had a normal sex drive, I don't, no big deal. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 @ConorOberst, asexuality is not a condition, it's a sexual orientation, in exactly same way as hetersexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality and all the other orientations are. People who identify as asexual have nothing wrong with them, are not broken, don't need fixing etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Sea Lemon Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 2 hours ago, ConorOberst said: Sorry to burst anyone's bubble - but asexuality most certainly is a condition! The fact that we are all on a forum talking about it means it's a problem. The simple fact is that something is broken in us - either physical or psychological. It's only a problem if you see it as one though. I fully accept that it is a condition and if I could cure it I would cure it in a second, I'm sure 99.9% of the rest of you would as well. The only difference is that I accept my asexuality - it doesn't cause me any distress or anguish. I wish I was a millionaire but I'm not, no big deal. I wish I had a normal sex drive, I don't, no big deal. Speak for yourself - I certainly don't consider my asexuality a condition, and if someone offered me a 'cure' there's no way I'd take it. I like who I am, asexuality included, and I'm willing to bet that a lot of the other members feel the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Florenna Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 On 10/25/2017 at 11:56 AM, oldgeeza said: I have found that most British people think that asexual means that a person has both sets of genitals or it's another word for gay, homosexual, etc, Really?! Unbelievable... Though the below is even more unbelievable and flabbergasting: 10 hours ago, ConorOberst said: Sorry to burst anyone's bubble - but asexuality most certainly is a condition! The fact that we are all on a forum talking about it means it's a problem. The simple fact is that something is broken in us - either physical or psychological. It's only a problem if you see it as one though. Link to post Share on other sites
oldgeeza Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 @Florenna when I tried to explain to my family as to why I'm still single, that I'm asexual, the answer was "so you're a queer then" you're not in a relationship, no kids, you're a closet queer, although I had to explain what asexual meant to my friends, they just accepted it, I've been single for a long time, with my friends, I knew they'd accept me, my family, well, they're very narrow minded, my Eastern European friends knew what asexual meant and again, accepted me for who I am rather than my sexuality @ConorOberst I wouldn't change the way I am, it's a part of what makes me who I am, I'm not broken, asexuality is no more a condition than heterosexuality, bisexuality or any other form of sexuality, it's a part of who we are. Am I bothered about not being able to have a sex life, definitely not, there's so much more to life than sex, how many people live a sexless life together? Whether they've had sex together in their past or just not interested, I should think that there are quite a few Link to post Share on other sites
timewarp Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Quote Sorry to burst anyone's bubble - but asexuality most certainly is a condition! "Based on the available science, we believe there is not sufficient evidence to support the categorization of asexuality as a psychiatric condition (or symptom of one) or as a disorder of sexual desire. There is some evidence that a subset of self-identified asexuals have a paraphilia. We also considered evidence supporting the classification of asexuality as a unique sexual orientation. We conclude that asexuality is a heterogeneous entity that likely meets conditions for a sexual orientation, and that researchers should further explore evidence for such a categorization." (Brotto, Lori A., and Morag Yule. "Asexuality: Sexual orientation, paraphilia, sexual dysfunction, or none of the above?." Archives of sexual behavior 46.3 (2017): 619-627.) Link to post Share on other sites
Scott1989 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 All I'll say is once upon a time, Homosexuality used to be widely thought of as a condition, and (unfortunately more recent than I thought and hoped) that is no longer the case. That and now I have "Just dropped in" by Kenny Rogers stuck in my head due to the mentioning of "condition" Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 14 hours ago, ConorOberst said: Sorry to burst anyone's bubble - but asexuality most certainly is a condition! Nonsense. Not feeling sexual desires can be a fallout product of certain illnesses, which a different ballpark than a sexual orientation. Asexuality is just as much a condition as hetero- or homosexuality is. 14 hours ago, ConorOberst said: The fact that we are all on a forum talking about it means it's a problem. What do you mean? As soon as people meet in one place to talk about something, this something is a problem? Music, cooking, books, DIY, cars... all of these are problems? 14 hours ago, ConorOberst said: The simple fact is that something is broken in us - either physical or psychological. It's only a problem if you see it as one though. As I said, not feeling sexual desires can be a fallout product of an underlying issue, but nothing's broken by default if you don't desire sex. Is 99.8% of Europe's population broken for not liking baseball? Are most of the US broken for not liking football, the fekkin most popular sport in the world? Am I broken for despising pineapple? It's just one of a gazillion of activities one can want to do - or not. If you actually consider yourself to be broken, you might elect to seek help. 14 hours ago, ConorOberst said: I fully accept that it is a condition and if I could cure it I would cure it in a second, I'm sure 99.9% of the rest of you would as well. The only difference is that I accept my asexuality - it doesn't cause me any distress or anguish. I wish I was a millionaire but I'm not, no big deal. I wish I had a normal sex drive, I don't, no big deal. So it doesn't bother you, but you wish you had an average sex drive and you'd change how you feel about sex in a heartbeat. Because that's how acceptance and not being bothered by something works The point of asexuality is that it you're basically okay with the way you feel. It's just that it can be hard if you interact with others. Talking about things you can't relate to, talking about experiences you don't have, having people jump to conclusions about your personality because of that one tiny fact about yourself that has precisely zero influence on how others live their lives. Yes, it can be an obstacle when it comes to relationships because you're meh about something that 99% want to be a part of their romantic relationships. Yet most asexuals wouldn't want to change, wouldn't want to have to cope with average partner's sexual needs, wouldn't want to you name it. They'd rather have a partner who is in the same boat, which is difficult because it's so rare. Link to post Share on other sites
Mermaidy Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Asexuality is (by definition of condition in this context) not a condition because it "does not cause distress," similar to homosexuality and the other SOs. (distress does not refer to societal persecution and relationship problems caused by differing SOs, for example). Wanting to change it if one could for aforementioned reasons doesn't mean it's a condition. Conditions (illnesses) by definition MUST cause distress. Wanting to change one's SO for convenience (I'm assuming, in terms of relationships for example because asexuals make for so few of the population) has to do with "relationship problems" that are "caused" by asexuality or something similar Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I'm sorry but I think you have to be in denial if you think it isn't a condition. It's good that we have all become comfortable with it, but it's just plain wrong to say you wouldn't change if you could. Any deviation from heterosexuality is clearly wrong from an evolutionary standpoint. You can accept it, you can be happy but clearly it is a deviation from the natural order of things. Unlike a useful quirk like say, having a supreme talent in art or something like that, asexuality has no inherent usefulness...it doesn't help us in any way, it only prevents us from either us being completely happy in a relationship, or our partner being completely happy. Only if we find another asexual person can we really find a complete relationship...and that pool to choose from is restricted. Like I said, there's a reason for this support group. It's because on some level our condition is causing problems. It's a false analogy to compare this forum to a cooking forum or a car forum...those are passions that people willfully engage in. But even so, you would find that the busiest sections on those sites would be people having a problem and looking for a solution (my car won't start, what do I do? My souffle won't rise, what do I do?). Afterall, why did you sign up for this site in the first place? Why did you search for it on Google? I can see this could be a touchy subject for some people so I won't comment on it further. I do think that people are confused though if the condition of asexuality has been assimilated into people's identity. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott1989 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 14 minutes ago, ConorOberst said: I'm sorry but I think you have to be in denial if you think it isn't a condition. It's good that we have all become comfortable with it, but it's just plain wrong to say you wouldn't change if you could. I wouldn't change, cause I wouldn't know how to act as a non ace and it would be distressing. Might even cause a mental condition if I change due to stress and depression it could cause! 14 minutes ago, ConorOberst said: Any deviation from heterosexuality is clearly wrong from an evolutionary standpoint. You can accept it, you can be happy but clearly it is a deviation from the natural order of things. Unlike a useful quirk like say, having a supreme talent in art or something like that, asexuality has no inherent usefulness...it doesn't help us in any way, it only prevents us from either us being completely happy in a relationship, or our partner being completely happy. Only if we find another asexual person can we really find a complete relationship...and that pool to choose from is restricted. So Homosexuality is a condition? Bisexuality? Pansexuality? Others which I know I've forgotten about? 16 minutes ago, ConorOberst said: Like I said, there's a reason for this support group. It's because on some level our condition is causing problems. What about forums to help each other through race issues? sex (as in gender) issues? faith issues? Are these condition based too? 17 minutes ago, ConorOberst said: Afterall, why did you sign up for this site in the first place? Why did you search for it on Google? To answer both, to get to know other aces, be able to speak to others that understand challenges I've faced due to asexuality. I googled it in the first place because some one thought I maybe asexual and wanted to know it, see if it was really me because my old self that thought I was just a shy reluctant heterosexual felt very broken. Signing up to this site is great to speak about that stuff, maybe help others who faced similar challenges, learn from others who faced challenges that I may face. When I attend meets, it's not to look for support for my asexuality, but to get to know other asexuals, where I can be a bit more open with my asexuality without fear of being judged on it. Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Scott1989 said: 2 minutes ago, Scott1989 said: So Homosexuality is a condition? Bisexuality? Pansexuality? Others which I know I've forgotten about? Yes I would count any deviation from heterosexuality as a condition. From a purely evolutionary perspective, it's meant to be a man and a women - that's how we are hardwired, anything that deviates from this is wrong. I certainly don't want to offend anyone here, I don't mean wrong on a judgmental level, I mean wrong from a genetic / psychological level. "Wrong" as in not the norm....no judgement at all. Like if someone was born and they had blue skin. It would be wrong. 2 minutes ago, Scott1989 said: What about forums to help each other through race issues? sex (as in gender) issues? faith issues? Are these condition based too? You answered it yourself. Why do people go to these forums in the first place? Support and answers to questions they don't have solutions for. 2 minutes ago, Scott1989 said: To answer both, to get to know other aces, be able to speak to others that understand challenges I've faced due to asexuality. I googled it in the first place because some one thought I maybe asexual and wanted to know it, see if it was really me because my old self that thought I was just a shy reluctant heterosexual felt very broken. Signing up to this site is great to speak about that stuff, maybe help others who faced similar challenges, learn from others who faced challenges that I may face. When I attend meets, it's not to look for support for my asexuality, but to get to know other asexuals, where I can be a bit more open with my asexuality without fear of being judged on it. So you said that you felt shy, broken - that you faced challenges, that you fear you couldn't be open....how is this not a condition? How is your asexuality not a thing that has caused you problems and suffering? You have now internalized your asexuality so it's no longer a problem - you have put a word to the feelings and issues you have lived through. Wouldn't you want to change all that if you could? If you are like me, you probably went through a huge number of difficult times and conversations with yourself to arrive where you are now. Just because it doesn't cause us stress now, doesn't mean it didn't cause us awful stress in the past. I think we have normalized our asexuality but that just sounds like we have become accustomed to it, not that we are "happy" with it. I must apologize as I feel as though I am coming across as a dick. I really don't mean to be I suppose it's just my way of dealing with things. I'm new here so I have lots of time to grow and change my opinion on things. Thanks for being patient with an idiot like me! We're all on the same team here Link to post Share on other sites
Euna Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 31 minutes ago, ConorOberst said: Any deviation from heterosexuality is clearly wrong from an evolutionary standpoint. You can accept it, you can be happy but clearly it is a deviation from the natural order of things. Unlike a useful quirk like say, having a supreme talent in art or something like that, asexuality has no inherent usefulness...it doesn't help us in any way, it only prevents us from either us being completely happy in a relationship, or our partner being completely happy. Your premise is that all asexuals are unhappy or suffering from problems they just accept. I can verify this is not true. The day I realized I am asexual, a huge source of anxiety was lifted from me. My life immediately improved and my personal (non-sexual) relationships have only got better since then. I would not want to change it if it were possible. Has asexuality been challenging at times? Yes, but so have my ethnicity and gender. It doesn't mean I don't embrace those things or that they're not natural to me as an individual. Also, I find asexuality very useful to me spiritually. (I guess you might consider Christianity to be a condition, too?) All I can say is, I'm much a happier, stable, and contributing member of society with these identities than without them. 1 minute ago, ConorOberst said: I really don't mean to be I suppose it's just my way of dealing with things. I'm new here so I have lots of time to grow and change my opinion on things. I don't think there's a need to apologize. The beauty of a forum is being able to discuss all viewpoints and hear other perspectives, regardless of whether we agree. That's one of the reasons I joined AVEN. Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 7 hours ago, timewarp said: "Based on the available science, we believe there is not sufficient evidence to support the categorization of asexuality as a psychiatric condition (or symptom of one) or as a disorder of sexual desire. There is some evidence that a subset of self-identified asexuals have a paraphilia. We also considered evidence supporting the classification of asexuality as a unique sexual orientation. We conclude that asexuality is a heterogeneous entity that likely meets conditions for a sexual orientation, and that researchers should further explore evidence for such a categorization." (Brotto, Lori A., and Morag Yule. "Asexuality: Sexual orientation, paraphilia, sexual dysfunction, or none of the above?." Archives of sexual behavior 46.3 (2017): 619-627.) This is just a handful of people saying that. You can find just as many articles saying that asexuality is a psychiatric condition. I don't think any of the psychologists agree on anything and it's just a ridiculously complex subject. I can only go on how I feel and my experiences with asexuality. To my mind, the sex drive is the absolute fundamental drive - up there with self preservation and the desire for food. Looking at society, it's incredibly strong and it drives things like nothing else! I don't think a lack of something can be described as an orientation. I think this is fundamentally wrong. We are asexual because we lack something, not because we have something. This is why I believe it is a condition and not a sexual orientation. Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 8 minutes ago, Euna said: Your premise is that all asexuals are unhappy or suffering from problems they just accept. I can verify this is not true. Close - my premise is that all asexuals have suffered because of it in the past and will potentially suffer consequences because of it in the future. Just because we accept in now doesn't mean it hasn't had a negative impact on our lives. It's textbook definition of denial. It's awesome that we are all comfortable now with our asexuality but that just dismisses all the stress we have had to deal with in the past. 8 minutes ago, Euna said: I don't think there's a need to apologize. The beauty of a forum is being able to discuss all viewpoints and hear other perspectives, regardless of whether we agree. That's one of the reasons I joined AVEN. Thanks it's really nice being able to talk about it! Link to post Share on other sites
Zeno Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 On 10/25/2017 at 4:23 AM, Telecaster68 said: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/29/what-im-really-thinking-closeted-asexual I thought this one in particular was really cool, a lot of the stuff here really resonated with me and I'm considering using some of it somehow to help explain myself when coming out to people in the future. Link to post Share on other sites
Mermaidy Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 5 hours ago, ConorOberst said: I'm sorry but I think you have to be in denial if you think it isn't a condition. It's good that we have all become comfortable with it, but it's just plain wrong to say you wouldn't change if you could. it's literally not, by defintion, a condition. sexual orientations are not conditions in the DSM. tbh I get your point, but you're wording it like shit. calling any sexual orientation a condition is just incorrect. I'm going to assume you're trolling if you keep insisting something that's patently false Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Mermaidy said: it's literally not, by defintion, a condition. sexual orientations are not conditions in the DSM. tbh I get your point, but you're wording it like shit. calling any sexual orientation a condition is just incorrect. I'm going to assume you're trolling if you keep insisting something that's patently false We'll just have to agree to disagree. We obviously see asexuality in totally different ways and there isn't any middle ground. As I've said, I see any deviation from a normal, heterosexual relationship as a condition. So did all the medical journals until political pressure caused them to alter their definitions - the facts haven't changed, only politics. Even so, I find it bizarre that anyone could think asexuality was a sexual orientation....if that's the case, is baldness a hair colour? Link to post Share on other sites
TheAP Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, ConorOberst said: Even so, I find it bizarre that anyone could think asexuality was a sexual orientation....if that's the case, is baldness a hair colour? Sexual orientation is defined as "a person's sexual identity in relation to the gender to which they are attracted". Asexuality describes sexual attraction to no genders. Your analogy doesn't work, because baldness has nothing to do with colour. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 I think you've just made his point. Baldness is an absence. 'Orientation' means which way something is facing. Asexuals aren't facing in any direction. On the other hand, as a set of logical categories, male/female/both/none *does* make sense. Link to post Share on other sites
ConorOberst Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: I think you've just made his point. Baldness is an absence. 'Orientation' means which way something is facing. Asexuals aren't facing in any direction. On the other hand, as a set of logical categories, male/female/both/none *does* make sense. You worded it better than me Am I an ahomosexual because I don't have feelings towards homosexuals? I've read that asexuality is an orientation a number of times on this site but I just don't get it....telecaster68 is spot on with his far better "direction" analogy. Link to post Share on other sites
timewarp Posted October 27, 2017 Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 6 hours ago, ConorOberst said: This is just a handful of people saying that. You can find just as many articles saying that asexuality is a psychiatric condition. I don't think any of the psychologists agree on anything and it's just a ridiculously complex subject. I can only go on how I feel and my experiences with asexuality. I'm not against alternative opinions, but I would like to see them backed up with something solid. I have cited a peer-reviewed article - so if there are recent peer-reviewed articles that say asexuality is a condition, why not cite one, so we all can learn? Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 *fires up the Pramana spotlight into the sky above AVEN* Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 7 hours ago, ConorOberst said: It's good that we have all become comfortable with it, but it's just plain wrong to say you wouldn't change if you could. I wouldn't. Now what's wrong about that? Link to post Share on other sites
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