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Are Reparations for Slavery in the US a Valid Responsibility?

Should There be Reparations for Slavery?  

42 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the following closest indicates your belief in reparations for slavery?

    • There should be, without a doubt, some form of *monetary* reparations for slavery
      6
    • There should not be any form of reparations for slavery further than what society has already offered
      22
    • The cases for and against reparations are so close that both are very valid options
      2
    • There should be some form of reparations for slavery which is not primary monetary
      8
    • If you have something completely different from any of the above in mind, please comment!
      4
  2. 2. (If you did not answer 2 or 5 for the above question) Which group of people below closest resembles the group which reparations should be paid to?

    • Black people in general, with only those who can be prove to *not* have direct ancestral roots to a former slaves not receiving reparations
      7
    • All people who would qualify as "black" in the US, based on some to-be-determined standard
      6
    • Only blacks with incomes/net wealth below a certain amount
      1
    • Only blacks residing in some geographical location
      0
    • If you have something completely different from any of the above in mind, please comment!
      28


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Yato

Why don't you just demand reparations from the people who owned the slave trade instead, not the American people?

 

 Oh wait, I'll tell you why. Because you will be called racist, because some of the people who owned the Slave trade were the Jews. 

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XYZ96
13 hours ago, Kai99 said:

But you just said you were okay with Japanese Americans getting reparations since they were personally affected. African Americans were personally affected by the actions done purposely by the American government. Why are you accepting one but denying reparations for another?

and as you said: 

On 1/12/2018 at 2:39 AM, Kai99 said:

The Japanese Americans were target and rounded up one by one, their names documented. [...] That did not happen to black americans. 

Japanese american individuals were sought out, that's the difference. Of course the african american were affected, when their communities were put in a bad position, communities are made up of people after all, but the people in the communities weren't individually sought out, you even stated that yourself, and I believe individual people should only get reparations if they themselves were individually sought out, otherwise, I'm totally for trying to build up the communities that were effected, by bettering the school system, infrastructure, etc. 

 

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E is for E

That's a very slippery slope to cross and once crossed, where does it end? The simple answer is that it won't. As horrible as past events were, they're done now. While not American, I'm Canadian. There's a different approach to old mistreatments than down in the States. The Natives do get reparations in the form of designated land and government paychecks, and you know how that's working out? Shitty.

 

A lot of the higher ups in native culture have become greedy, cashing in on the paychecks and paying no mind to the state of the reserve, while doling out just enough money for those living on them to survive. Many reservations are now trapped in a viscious circle of poor living conditions, drug abuse, and the continued aid that comes in and only further fuels the fire. Try to take this money away and it's likely a backlash of claims to racism will arise and our politically correct government will fold over. Ironic considering our government doesn't give a fuck about the Natives, very much like all the rest of the citizens in the country, and only maintains the land agreements(barely) and (barely)pays the cheques when the time comes. Greed exists in all people. Show most people an easy way to make money and it will corrupt the vast majority of them into a self indulged state of utter laziness and apathy only sustained by the influx of more money.

 

People need to wake up and smell reality and start working together in all of their respective social and cultural circles rather than pinning blame and developing an innate victim complex that suckers in charitable fools and pushes spineless politicians along. The problems don't lie in the past with the dead, they're created and continued by the living today, on all sides. Nobody is spotless in these situations.

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ChillaKilla

Why are we dragging Jewish people into this now?

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Kai99
Quote

Why don't you just demand reparations from the people who owned the slave trade instead, not the American people?

 

 Oh wait, I'll tell you why. Because you will be called racist, because some of the people who owned the Slave trade were the Jews. 

ncDJ4Kx.gif

 

Quote

Japanese american individuals were sought out, that's the difference. Of course the african americans  were effected when their communities were put in a bad position, communities are made up of people after all, but the people in the communities weren't individually sought out, you even stated that yourself, and I believe individual people should only get reparations if they themselves were individually sought out, otherwise, I'm totally for trying to build up the communities that were effected, by bettering the school system, infrastructure, etc. 

Wait, why are you moving the goal post now? You stated that in your opinion, reparations should only be paid to those directly affected, did you not? African Americans in general were sought out and directly effected by the actions done by the American government. The intentional damage done had a pin ball effect on black communities that resulted from one disastrous effect to another. This, including several other reasons, is why black americans in general, deserve reparations.

 

But lets address why monetary reparations aren't a good option. When it comes to reparations, it doesn't have to be monetary directly, but it should be a way where black Americans can gain wealth, whether that is by providing land and homes to carry down the family line or sell, or direct payout. Individually giving wealth to those who have been historically been barred from obtaining wealth, helps to right the numerous wrongs of the past and give those struggling communities a leg up by having a population who is more financially secure. Those who are financially secure can help to invest in their own communities by starting businesses, opening organizations that can directly address those problems, provide better for their children and, if so choose, leave an inheritance to future generations of black Americans. AND OF COURSE, not everyone is going to be financially responsible with their earnings and some will spend it on having as many expensive nice things as possible in the shortest amount of time. With that said, even if only 30-40% of black americans are able to secure and pass down the wealth for several generations, that will greatly improve the life quality of our future.

 

Quote

That's a very slippery slope to cross and once crossed, where does it end? The simple answer is that it won't. As horrible as past events were, they're done now. While not American, I'm Canadian. There's a different approach to old mistreatments than down in the States. The Natives do get reparations in the form of designated land and government paychecks, and you know how that's working out? Shitty.

 

A lot of the higher ups in native culture have become greedy, cashing in on the paychecks and paying no mind to the state of the reserve, while doling out just enough money for those living on them to survive. Many reservations are now trapped in a viscious circle of poor living conditions, drug abuse, and the continued aid that comes in and only further fuels the fire. Try to take this money away and it's likely a backlash of claims to racism will arise and our politically correct government will fold over. Ironic considering our government doesn't give a fuck about the Natives, very much like all the rest of the citizens in the country, and only maintains the land agreements(barely) and (barely)pays the cheques when the time comes. Greed exists in all people. Show most people an easy way to make money and it will corrupt the vast majority of them into a self indulged state of utter laziness and apathy only sustained by the influx of more money.

 

I'm not familiar with Canada's historical treatment of Natives. If Canada gives out government checks, is it yearly, monthly and to who, and how much? You said the people still live in poor conditions, and yet they supposedly given checks from the government? You also said Canada barely pays the checks. It sounds like there are a lot more issues going on underneath the surface that need to be addressed first.

 

Quote

People need to wake up and smell reality and start working together in all of their respective social and cultural circles rather than pinning blame and developing an innate victim complex that suckers in charitable fools and pushes spineless politicians along. The problems don't lie in the past with the dead, they're created and continued by the living today, on all sides. Nobody is spotless in these situation

As someone from Canada, I assume you probably don't know a lot about American history, or maybe you have a general knowledge of it, but lack important details, especially concerning black american history. You don't understand that the United States was a unique country in that their racial politics and overall environment made it the most racist country on the planet, only rivaling for a time, anyways, Nazi Germany and South Africa's apartheid system. The policy towards African Americans for much of american history after the American  Civil War was new policies that went on to continue slave practices by imprisoning African Americans by giving them fines that they knew they could not pay, and forcing them to work and having many former slaves forced into a sharecropping system, which was only a little bit less oppressive than slavery. After the civil war, especially in the south, the belief was that it was better for blacks not only to be subservient to whites both economically and socially, but they must fear white people too, and there were little to no laws that protected blacks from whites, so the killing of a black person was legal, or even if it wasn't, it would be nearly impossible for blacks to prosecute white people for any wrong doing. There were countless black lives who were killed for nothing more than he said-shes said, which is why you have a lot of f-up stories like George Stinney JR and Emmit Till. Most blacks were concentrated in the south due to the prevalence of slavery in those countries, and due to the constant state of terror and oppression, millions of black americans embarked on one of the largest internal migrations in history to the North, known as the Great Migration, in pursuit of jobs.

 

Of course, while they found jobs, the pay was unequal and going up the corporate ladder was nearly impossible for most black Americans. The separate but "equal" laws that many black americans had to live by meant that if there were no black colleges for certain occupations, than they could not go into their professions.  Some professions that black americans were good at, they were eventually forced out of, like horse racing which, back in the late 1800s to early 19000s, black riders were numerous and won more than half of the games of the Kentucky Derby, and now you wont see any blacks americans today. Those African Americans who were successful despite it all were looked at with hatred, not acceptance, and there were plenty of riots that resulted from such feelings, one such riot completely destroying one of the earliest successful black american communities.  During the Great Depression, wealth generating laws made to help the american people weren't given to black americans, and these HAND UPS help to build white american prosperity. The process of redlining effetely blocked black americans out of much needed home loans and the wealth that brought it, something that Adam Ruins Everything so effectively explained. With no upward mobility in jobs and segregated employment, black americans look towards the entertainment industry for success, not education, and criminal activity. There were plenty of examples of successful black musicians, and rather than looked forward to being stuck dead in the bottom at a job, the entertainment industry became the black american dream. Eventually when black people begin dominating sports, blacks started to look towards that as well as a way to get up, and not education. After the civil rights act in the 1960s, racism didnt just up and disappear. What actually followed was a period of anger and restlessness in white america with desegregation in place in the 1970s. Laws that now went in to favor black americans were largely unpopular with white america. The civil rights act, made by a democrat, helped to make black americans go into the democratic party in droves, and lead to southern whites nearly completely abandoning  that party for republican(as it stands today). This new found loyalty to the democratic party by many black americans made them a target during Nixon's administration. In order to decrease their power, policies targeted our neighborhoods to cause dysfunction and break up black families, including increasing the prison time for the smallest of drug offenses, and they admitted to it, locking up people for fake charges. You know, the implanting of drugs in the car or home. That actually was a practice done to black americans. Reagan went on to win in the 1980s by, in code of course, going against the gains made in black america and upholding white supremacy. During this time, he further continued Nixon's policies of targeting black communities to dysfunction, this time by selling drugs to impoverish black communities to pay for illegal CIA activities and increasing prison time for the smallest of drug offenses(or no offenses at all, in some cases). The drug trade in black communities lead to a blooming illegal industry in most of them. Of course with any illegal industries, the way to protect that industry tend to involve a lot of blood shed ( look up the violence that came about after prohibition which banned the sale of alcoholic products), and the gang element became a significant presence in black communities. You can make the argument that no one force anyone to get into a gang, but what with being barred from the american dream for so long historically, any way to make a good living becomes appetizing, even if that way is dangerous. Gangster culture came alive in the 80s on up, and young African American males from broken homes and worn down neighborhoods were easy victims to this culture.

 

Now with this summary of historical events, you can see why a lot of black american communities today lack wealth and are gang infested, why education is not looked at as a way for prosperity for many blacks, why there is so much dysfunction in black homes, and why so many black americans go in and out of the prison system. To dismiss history is extraordinary naive because it can explain so much of today. The abrupt separation of their land and culture and forcibly having to adjust to a foreign culture, helps to explain why Native Americans took to alcohol to soothe their pain, so much so that it altered their biology and made them more susceptible to alcoholism than other races. You can see the same thing in the San people in southern African countries who are being forced to abandon their land and culture that they've lived for centuries, and are taking to alcohol to cope. It explains how many European countries were able to obtain riches beyond imagination by colonizing and taking advantage of the resources in other countries.

 

If the US left black americans alone after slavery ended and didn't try to a upheld a system of white supremacy and obstruct any gains made by black amercians every step of the way, than I can agree with you said. But that was so obviously not the case. There is blame to go around.

 

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Knight of Cydonia

I'm against reparations mainly because the perpetrators of slavery were just a small percentage of society, and that there is no single group clearly responsible. According to the 1860 Census, only 1.5% of free persons owned slaves (extending to 8% of all US families) and while the majority were white, there were also black slaveholders. There was also the African side of the slave trade that has some responsibility for black slavery in America. Furthermore, a significant number of Americans gave their lives to free slaves. 

 

I think reparations could have been given out to people who were slaves themselves, and possibly even their direct children should the slaves have died, but that time is long past.

 

@Kai99

 

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It puts money in the pockets of those who have been historically excluded from the wealth made from policies that help to grow white america. It puts money in the pockets of those who ancestors free labor, enriched the United States and made it what is today.

You imply that the wealth made from slavery only enriches white people. Slave labour did create wealth for present-day Americans - but that includes black Americans as well. Also, American blacks are on average significantly better off than blacks in the African nations from which their ancestors were taken. It can be argued that slave descendants are actually better off than had their ancestors stayed in Africa and the slave trade never happened.

 

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There are many ways it could happen. Those eligible will have to have some documentation of proof of descendants. There has to be a defined definition for black americans. They can't be foreign blacks. The huffington post had a an article that detailed examples of how it can be done. This can happen.

Identification of descendants is an enormous undertaking, and the two steps outlined in that article to filter out "eligible" Americans  (1. an individual must have self-identified on a census form as black/African-American/etc. at least 10 years before a reparations form; 2. each individual must provide proof of an ancestor who was enslaved) seem to be lacking. What about mixed-raced people - what is a good threshold for how much of your ancestry actually goes back to black slaves? Also, how would one go about identifying levels of actual victimization? Should it matter if a slave had been freed and given compensation? And so far you haven't proposed what should happen after all valid descendants are identified.

 

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For some odd reason, your implying that the US isn't capable of doing large payouts. Now lets look here for a moment. Back in 1880, the US government paid an equivalent of now 5.8 billion dollars to slave owners. Back in 1880. The US is paying Native Americans a total of $493 million today. The Obama administration, in their last year, chose to pay off our debt to Iran which, with the interest, was 1. 7 billion dollars ( which more than likely would not have happened under Trump, keep that in mind). Now France, the 7th largest economy in the world, paid a total of 6 billion dollars of Holocaust reparations. Now keep in mind that is simply Holocaust reparations, so no doubt if calculating all reparations paid since 1948, that number would be higher. France is able to do so... without bankrupting their economy. Your telling me the US, as the number one economy in the world, would go bankrupt? 

 

ETA Also, Germany has paid a total of 89 billion dollars in Holocaust reparations, and they are in 4th place in terms of economy. Still going strong...

Demands for reparations easily reach into the trillions of dollars. All the numbers you've thrown above for other reparations are chump change compared to that.

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XYZ96
2 hours ago, Kai99 said:

Wait, why are you moving the goal post now? 

I'm not moving the goal post, my opinion hasn't changed, perhaps I worded myself not great

 

2 hours ago, Kai99 said:

You stated that in your opinion, reparations should only be paid to those directly affected, did you not?

yes, and by directly affected I was referring to the fact that no person alive today has expirence legal slavery in the US, therefore, no one alive today is directly affected by slavery. (I am not saying slavery has no effects on life today in the US, it just that everyone it affects, it affects indirectly)

Japanese americans in internment camps - directly affected, as they were rounded up individually and stuck in a camp

African americans in targeted communities - indirectly affected, it's like, imagine a hurricane hits a town, and no one dies, however, now everything is moldy. The hurricane didn't place the mold, that would make people sick, there, it made the conditions right for the mold to form, therefore the sick people were were indirectly affected by the hurricane, even though without the hurricane, they would not be sick. 

 

2 hours ago, Kai99 said:

African Americans in general were sought out and directly effected by the actions done by the American government.

with "in general" are you referring to aiming at black communities specifically? or are you referring to the government went knocking on their door? 

If you mean the former, here's what I already said to that: 

15 hours ago, XYZ96 said:

Of course the african american were affected, when their communities were put in a bad position, communities are made up of people after all, but the people in the communities weren't individually sought out, you even stated that yourself, and I believe individual people should only get reparations if they themselves were individually sought out, otherwise, I'm totally for trying to build up the communities that were effected, by bettering the school system, infrastructure, etc. 

if you mean the second: you stated yourself that they weren't rounded up

quote from you: 

"It is easy to say that the US should pay for those affected because the population was so clearly rounded up and abused. That did not happen to black americans. When the government began purposely targeting black people, they didn't round us up and identified us by name. They simply implanted the drugs in mainly black areas while at the same time, increasing the prison sentences for even the smallest of drug offenses."

 

so, the (recent, as I have already said I am against reparations for dead people) events in history targeted the communities, correct? The damage was done to the communities? Here's the thing, what came first, was the community targeted, which led to the people in the community being affected or were the individuals in the community targets which then affected the community, as I have understood it, it was the first one. So, the Communities were targeted, so the communities should be build back up, this will in the long term (and actually fairly short term as well) affect the individuals in the community that is being build back up, better education, better infrastructure, these things lead to less poverty, less crime and safer lives. I am not saying we shouldn't help people, what we are disagreeing on is how the people should be helped (and also to a degree why, but what does why matter in practice). 

 

I'm sure we both agree that everyone should be at least financially stable enough to be able to survive in reasonable living conditions, because this enables people much better to be able to get out of poverty (as they can focus on other things other then if they'll eat and if they'll get kicked out of their apartment), however I believe, the right way to do this is to build the communities, not the individual people, back up. Now I am also for affordable tertiary education, as that is one way to get out poverty, and in some areas were every job that pays anything wants a at least a bachelors, pretty much the only. If it isn't affordable, then people in poverty either won't go or they'll become even poorer before they start getting anywhere, if they don't just continue to get poorer. 

So, I think where our opinions differ is (in what should be done, not necessarily why) is were the money (or land or whatever) should be put, I think it shouldn't be given to individual people, but should be put in education and infrastructure, after all, isn't education one of the biggest equalizers?  

 

I hope my opinion is more clear now... 

 

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Kai99
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You imply that the wealth made from slavery only enriches white people. Slave labour did create wealth for present-day Americans - but that includes black Americans as well. Also, American blacks are on average significantly better off than blacks in the African nations from which their ancestors were taken. It can be argued that slave descendants are actually better off than had their ancestors stayed in Africa and the slave trade never happened.

The wealth made from slavery that helped to enrich the US did not go on to enrich the lives of free slaves or their offspring. After the reconstruction attempt, when the north left the south alone to deal with black americans in their own way, the south went on to restrict black success and kept most blacks in a semi-slave state. Any laws that were eventually made to help build the wealth of white americans were barred for blacks. 

 

Also, today's Africa is a result of colonization which created wars and destroyed the cultures and civilizations that was in place, taking African resources from African hands and pooling the people's labor to enrich the pockets of their colonizers. After African nations eventually won their independence in the 60s, any leaders who were for enriching the lives of the people in their country were quickly removed or eliminated for puppets who continued on the enrichment of their colonizers nations( yes, the US was also involved in this). The aid to Africa that you see today isn't aid, but money paid to continue the parasitic system in place. This is why you can look at the still tattered African nations and wonder "with all the aid, why isn't Africa doing better." Africans, overall, were actually doing a pretty damn good job exploiting their resources for the betterment of the people. Most of the gold that was traded in the early centuries were from African civilizations. They had their economies and industries, most of the people were self sufficient and food wasn't hard to come by. It was recently discovered that Africans were generally taller than Europeans up past the industrial ages, and height is an good indicator of good overall health. Early Africans, those who interacted and sometimes fought with Europeans, were typically described as tall and sometimes described as black giants. Todays Africans are actually getting shorter, an good example of the malnutrition now found throughout the continent. I would not want to be a black person during the jim crow era in the US, and I also wouldn't want to be a poor person during Europe industrial ages, with a good portion of their population being poor and dealing with the worst working conditions. I would gladly be a black person before the colonization of Africa.

 

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Identification of descendants is an enormous undertaking, and the two steps outlined in that article to filter out "eligible" Americans  (1. an individual must have self-identified on a census form as black/African-American/etc. at least 10 years before a reparations form; 2. each individual must provide proof of an ancestor who was enslaved) seem to be lacking. What about mixed-raced people - what is a good threshold for how much of your ancestry actually goes back to black slaves? Also, how would one go about identifying levels of actual victimization? Should it matter if a slave had been freed and given compensation? And so far you haven't proposed what should happen after all valid descendants are identified.

There are plenty of people in the US who have ancestry from Native Americans and yet, they will never see the benefits given to them. You have to ask yourself, how did the US decide who gets payment from reparations with the amount of mixing that went on in the US? There is going to have to be a cut off to those who do have some black ancestry. Also, slavery is not the only reason why blacks deserve reparations, as I've already stated before. And what do you mean after valid descendants have been identified? What do you think happens after the fact. You give compensation. What that compensation is is debatable, but do black americans deserve it, yes.

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Sally
3 hours ago, Yato said:

Because people on the Left like to blame "White people" for everything, despite the fact many whites are Jewish (White isn't even a race). So it leads to the controversy of "Are Jewish people "white"?" Which the majority of them are in USA, and most all western countries. Despite people claiming they can't be white, because they are Jewish. Because it makes them look racist, they won't admit Jewish people can be white.

 

Thus countering and demands that somehow white people are privileged, because they don't know what it is like to be marginalized or discriminated against. Which is false, because of the Jewish.

 

 The whole narrative falls apart if you go based on skin color, and not historical fact. 

And just how does that relate to your  claim that slave runners were Jewish?   But please, don't tell me; it would  just be more dragging Jews into this argument, as someone said above.  

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Knight of Cydonia
11 minutes ago, Kai99 said:

The wealth made from slavery that helped to enrich the US did not go on to enrich the lives of free slaves or their offspring.

But it did later help enrich the lives of their descendants. This is one of the reasons I would have supported reparations for the free slaves themselves, but not their descendants generations later.

 

13 minutes ago, Kai99 said:

Also, today's Africa is a result of colonization which created wars and destroyed the cultures and civilizations that was in place, taking African resources from African hands and pooling the people's labor to enrich the pockets of their colonizers. After African nations eventually won their independence in the 60s, any leaders who were for enriching the lives of the people in their country were quickly removed or eliminated for puppets who continued on the enrichment of their colonizers nations( yes, the US was also involved in this). The aid to Africa that you see today isn't aid, but money paid to continue the parasitic system in place. This is why you can look at the still tattered African nations and wonder "with all the aid, why isn't Africa doing better." Africans, overall, were actually doing a pretty damn good job exploiting their resources for the betterment of the people. Most of the gold that was traded in the early centuries were from African civilizations. They had their economies and industries, most of the people were self sufficient and food wasn't hard to come by. It was recently discovered that Africans were generally taller than Europeans up past the industrial ages, and height is an good indicator of good overall health. Early Africans, those who interacted and sometimes fought with Europeans, were typically described as tall and sometimes described as black giants. Todays Africans are actually getting shorter, an good example of the malnutrition now found throughout the continent. I would not want to be a black person during the jim crow era in the US, and I also wouldn't want to be a poor person during Europe industrial ages, with a good portion of their population being poor and dealing with the worst working conditions. I would gladly be a black person before the colonization of Africa.

But we're talking about today's black people, who never experienced slavery (nor did their parents, nor did their grandparents...) receiving reparations. Today's black people in America are better off than if their families had stayed in Africa. If life in Africa was on par or better than in America right now then I wouldn't be making this argument, by the way.

 

18 minutes ago, Kai99 said:

There are plenty of people in the US who have ancestry from Native Americans and yet, they will never see the benefits given to them. You have to ask yourself, how did the US decide who gets payment from reparations with the amount of mixing that went on in the US? There is going to have to be a cut off to those who do have some black ancestry. Also, slavery is not the only reason why blacks deserve reparations, as I've already stated before.

I'm not saying it's impossible to choose criteria for who gets compensation (I personally think it's a lot harder than you make it out to be, but I wouldn't call it impossible), just that it's undeniably messier than had we been dealing with first generation slaves, and it's getting messier and messier as time goes on. Giving reparations to descendants so far down the line from the actual slaves is also a slippery slope as it opens up questions about other groups of people that could deserve reparations for wrongs from hundreds of years ago. In terms of things other than slavery, I think that should be a separate topic. I think time certainly plays a role and slavery predates all the other issues.

 

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And what do you mean after valid descendants have been identified? What do you think happens after the fact. You give compensation. What that compensation is is debatable, but do black americans deserve it, yes.

 

I said "so far you haven't proposed what should happen after all valid descendants are identified." That didn't mean I wasn't sure what happens after valid people are chosen; obviously in a system of reparations, they will get compensation. What I'm asking is what you would propose as viable compensation. Do you think it's reasonable for dozens of trillions of dollars to be spent on this? Billions? In the form of a one-time payment, or given gradually over a decade? Affirmative action? So far there has been no consensus on a reparations plan. There are also very real risks of negative side-effects. Reparations are not necessarily a purely good thing, and the potential negatives should always be considered.

 

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Sally
32 minutes ago, Yato said:

So if you (Not speaking to you directly, ambiguous you) can't demand reparations from the Jewish people for the past, then maybe you should stop demanding it from regular European immigrant descendants now that inhabit America. Most which had nothing to do with the slave trade. In fact, 99% didn't have anything to do with it. ALSO, you should be pretty ashamed to ever as an Irish descendant about receiving reparations.

99% of Jews had nothing to do with the slave trade, and Jews should not be differentiated from "regular" European immigrant descendants.   They came to America for the same reasons all others did.  During the period of time slavery was  legal in America, most European groups participated in holding slaves and also running slave ships.  It wasn't an ethnically-separated activity.   So stop with the "Jew" stuff.   

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Kai99
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But it did later help enrich the lives of their descendants. This is one of the reasons I would have supported reparations for the free slaves themselves, but not their descendants generations later.

Except the descendants were later screwed following the freeing of the slaves. Will you address my other points on why black americans deserve reparations?

 

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But we're talking about today's black people, who never experienced slavery (nor did their parents, nor did their grandparents...) receiving reparations. Today's black people in America are better off than if their families had stayed in Africa. If life in Africa was on par or better than in America right now then I wouldn't be making this argument, by the way.

That... is just a bad argument all around. If you look at America's black history as a whole with the first black slaves coming here in 1619 and going through 200 years of the most ruthless form of slavery, which followed a century of aggressive discrimination to a couple more decades of your own government trying to cause your community to self destruct, with several more decades of progression, than you have to ask yourself, is the hundreds of years of pain from your ancestors worthy of being at the spot you are today? If my family had stayed in Africa and the slave trade never commenced in the 1400s (400 years for black slave descendants as a whole), my ancestors would arguably have been better off. Even those descended from slaves in Africa had a chance to move up in society. 

 

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I'm not saying it's impossible to choose criteria for who gets compensation (I personally think it's a lot harder than you make it out to be, but I wouldn't call it impossible), just that it's undeniably messier than had we been dealing with first generation slaves, and it's getting messier and messier as time goes on. Giving reparations to descendants so far down the line from the actual slaves is also a slippery slope as it opens up questions about other groups of people that could deserve reparations for wrongs from hundreds of years ago. In terms of things other than slavery, I think that should be a separate topic. I think time certainly plays a role and slavery predates all the other issues.

I never said it was going to be easy. Also, my argument is that black americans do deserve reparations, for several reasons, slavery included.

 

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I said "so far you haven't proposed what should happen after all valid descendants are identified." That didn't mean I wasn't sure what happens after valid people are chosen; obviously in a system of reparations, they will get compensation. What I'm asking is what you would propose as viable compensation. Do you think it's reasonable for dozens of trillions of dollars to be spent on this? Billions? In the form of a one-time payment, or given gradually over a decade? Affirmative action? So far there has been no consensus on a reparations plan. There are also very real risks of negative side-effects. Reparations are not necessarily a purely good thing, and the potential negatives should always be considere

 

Yes, I do believe that it is worthy of trillions of dollars to be spent on this. In my opinion, the amount should be, at a minimum of $20,000 for those eligible, one time payment. What about Affirmative Action?

 

I believe that part of the negative side effects is the unpopularity of it among most white americans. Only 3% of them are in favor of it, and the US cashing out on reparations for slavery would cause racial resentment to a new time high. I already said I do not believe black americans would receive reparations because the party who would campaign for it, lets say Democrats, would lose the little percentage of the white vote that they do have, and they wouldn't want that. Just because I don't think it will happen, does not mean I think we shouldn't get reparations. 

 

So in summary, do I think black americans deserve reparations? Yes. Do I think it will happen? No.

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Sally

I definitely got your point, Yato.

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FictoVore.

Does a black person who is a descendant of a black slave owner have to pay reparations to a white person who is descended from an enslaved white person? (because yes, there were white slaves as well as black ones).

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Kai99
9 hours ago, Yato said:

You are missing my point. I am saying that people should not demand reparations for exactly what you have said above. I was drawing a parallel to guide the people who are pro-reparations into realizing that no one group of people are responsible. So the blame lies on many groups not just "white people".

Find where I said its white people fault for slavery? You wont. Most of the damage done to African Americans that you can see today happened after slavery, as I listed. 

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Kisa the Kit Kat

I want to point out before I make this argument that I'm white as a sheet and never took a black history class so PLEASE tear me to shreds if I deserve it (not that you need my permission but you get my drift).  My major was sociology so I'm not running into this argument totally blind.

 

I think the argument for reparations is flawed.  I'm not saying that POC weren't screwed over (they totally were), but I don't think reparations is the right answer. 

 

Here is a better use of the same money to help POCs imo:

 

-Better police training.  Actually, just look into the police force in general.  I just need to say the words Joe Arpaio and I think you get where I'm coming from on that one.

-Working on fixing the school to prison pipeline.  I can start talking about how black kids are punished more severely than white kids for the same thing when they are as young as 5 years old, but also just the ways the schools are set up.  They need better funding.  It's also nice and all to say "X amount of people from school Y go to Stanford" or whatnot but 1) there's no guarantee that those X people will be POC and 2) even if they do go to Stanford it's not worth it if the high school is so broke that the curriculum didn't allow for them to be able to keep up with the course material.  You gotta fix the school before talking about percentiles.  I'd be up for things like that a bit later but right now it's too easy to fuck up.

-Looking into our justice system and seeing why so many POCs are charged with crimes (and why their charges are more severe).  Again, we tend to punish black people harder than white people for the EXACT SAME THING!

-Fixing the housing system in a lot of places.  Don't get me started on my New York stories...they're eyeopening.

-How we treat felons-I'm not going to lie.  The fact that I can think of a few people who have felonies for drug possession (and they all happen to be black...odd) and Brock Turner is NOT a felon is fucked up.  But there' more.  Brock Turner is eligible for more jobs than the person who was arrested for possession purely because he doesn't have a felony.  So if a felony keeps you from employment...it's going to increase your chances of reoffending because people need money to survive.  How can you feed a family if you can't work?  How can you pay rent?  You start doing illegal work because that's the work you can find.  It's a rigged system and once you land in jail, you're fucked forever.

 

In short, I think structural changes work better and will have a longer lasting effect.  If you want to throw in "have POCs be in charge of the changes" I will even agree to that too.  I just think this is a better use of the same money to help more people for a longer period of time.

 

And that's why I'm against reparations.

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Sally

^^^  All of those things, absolutely.  But then that would actually take some work, while talking about reparations on an internet forum is easy.   :mad: 

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nanogretchen4

Putting Kisa's suggestions into practice would indeed take work, and also money. And that is an incomplete list of the structural changes that would be necessary to repair our racist society, since it does not address discrimination in employment and the wage gap. More work, and more money. Either POC's are going to be put in charge of the changes or they are not. If so, why not give them the resources and let them use their own judgment about how to most effectively help their community? If not, why not? Why is it so important for a white dominated power structure to retain control of the money and make the decisions?

 

And while I agree that talking about reparations on an internet forum is easier than doing the work, this is after all a thread on the topic of whether reparations are appropriate. Agreeing with the majority of posters that there is no moral obligation to make reparations and that white people should keep the money is also easier than doing the work.

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Kisa the Kit Kat
22 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Putting Kisa's suggestions into practice would indeed take work, and also money. And that is an incomplete list of the structural changes that would be necessary to repair our racist society, since it does not address discrimination in employment and the wage gap. More work, and more money. Either POC's are going to be put in charge of the changes or they are not. If so, why not give them the resources and let them use their own judgment about how to most effectively help their community? If not, why not? Why is it so important for a white dominated power structure to retain control of the money and make the decisions?

 

And while I agree that talking about reparations on an internet forum is easier than doing the work, this is after all a thread on the topic of whether reparations are appropriate. Agreeing with the majority of posters that there is no moral obligation to make reparations and that white people should keep the money is also easier than doing the work.

You're right, the list is incomplete.  It was not meant to be complete and I'm glad that you found parts of the list that I missed.

 

The issue that I see is that I'm just against giving people money and saying "do X".  I just don't trust humans as much as I trust the systems.  And before anybody asks, I'm against tax cuts for the rich for similar reasons to this.

 

I mentioned as well that having POC in charge of these changes makes sense to me and is something that would benefit everyone as a whole.  I just think these changes make more sense even if they do take more work and more money.  And I'd rather the money go there.

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Sally

The trouble with essentially giving POC the power/control to make changes is that you are telling them, "Yes, we agree that you've been hurt by this long-term system, but you're going to have to fix it."  Kind of like telling women that they're going to have to train men not to sexually assault women.  
 

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Philip027

I don't really feel like you can properly "reparate" something like this.

 

All you can really do is know that it happened, recognize that it happened, and don't fucking do it again.

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Kai99
On 1/16/2018 at 2:33 AM, Sally said:

^^^  All of those things, absolutely.  But then that would actually take some work, while talking about reparations on an internet forum is easy.   :mad: 

mSZm7qS.gif

 

Seriously.

 

This thread is ABOUT reparations. Your suppose to talk about it. 

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Sally
4 hours ago, Kai99 said:

mSZm7qS.gif

 

Seriously.

 

This thread is ABOUT reparations. Your suppose to talk about it. 

You didn't understand what I said.  Talking is easy.  Working on stuff to make things better out in the actual world is hard.  

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Kai99
30 minutes ago, Sally said:

You didn't understand what I said.  Talking is easy.  Working on stuff to make things better out in the actual world is hard.  

Actually, yes I did understand exactly what you meant. It still doesnt make sense to say such a thing on a thread about reparations. This is a simple internet debate, not active politics.

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CrazyDiamond

Reparations won't fix the systematic issues that have spawned as a result of slavery and Jim Crow laws, only a concerted and consistent change in society and governance will. Society should focus on providing universal healthcare, expanding welfare, greatly funding and increasing access to education, increased funding for infrastructure, electoral reform and greater police accountability. Only then will society change for the better.

 

Also lol at the guy bringing jews into this, didn't expect a forum like this would be home to fascist types.  

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