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I Don't Hate Lesbians (And, Hopefully, Neither Do You)


GreenWithEnby

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GreenWithEnby

I used to think the belief that Aces and Lesbians are mortal enemies would stay in the depths of Tumblr where it belonged.

Long story short: It hasn't. At least, it hasn't for me in particular.

 

I have a close friend who is a lesbian. She and her girlfriend both know I'm asexual, considering I'm fairly open/out about my orientation. She looks me straight in the eyes and asks me why I hate lesbians. Now, before I realized that I'm aroace and agender, I identified as a lesbian. I'm aesthetically attracted to feminine people and women in general, which is why I thought so to begin with. I was confused at first, and then it hit me. I asked her why she thought I hated lesbians, and she told me that she'd read something, and this, and that someone had told her about Aces saying this... I explained to her that I most definitely did not hate her, or any lesbians at all, and she came around eventually.
The source of all this stems from stuff with MOGAI (Marginalized Orientations, Gender identities, And Intersex) and people using the SAM (Split Attraction Model) that got into arguments with others. Some of it has to do with Cishet Asexuals being considered just 'Straight', and therefore should not be allowed in LGBT+ spaces. Along with that, it has to do with discussions of internalized homophobia... There's a lot. It's a mess. I don't at all recommend looking at any of this 'ace discourse' if you haven't experienced it before. It involves lots of anger, hate, and has spiraled into people telling newly identifying aces to kill themselves.  I'm serous. We're talking 14-15 year olds. Just know that it's bad. I've largely separated myself from it, considering I don't need that much negativity in my life, I just never expected it to pop up offline.

 

So, here's my question: Has anyone else experienced anything like this? (I'm specifically wondering about any similar experiences with lesbians, though, as this seems to be the running theme)

 

Tried to white out anything that might cause discomfort, sorry if I missed something, or if I whited out too much!

Also, considering the topic is focused on Lesbians, I put this in The Gray Area considering it is about another sexual identity, but if this is better fitting in another area, please tell me!

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I have only heard of this issue on tumblr. Oddly, this came up today in another thread...

 

Sorry you had to deal with that kind of prejudice. I'm glad you were able to talk to your friend and help her understand that aces as a group don't hate anyone.

 

Honestly, I haven't looked into (and don't care to) this whole "aces just have internalized homophobia" idea. I lean towards my own gender when dating, though I consider myself pan-romantic because I don't have a preference. I have kissed girls and boys and would do both again, I just have no interest in partnered sex. So basically, I dunno where the ace discourse comes from, but I can't see where it holds water considering I myself couldn't be considered straight even if one denied asexuality.

 

It's just one of the stereotypes and incorrect ideas that we have to work through. I hope it doesn't make you feel less as a person. You can always step away if you feel unaccepted there and find spaces (like on AVEN!) where you are more accepted :)

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I'm too old for this to have really come up in my peer group, thankfully. I'm not on Tumblr and I just tune out to a lot of discussions off AVEN with strangers online. The most important part of being asexual, to me, is that I don't seek out a sex life (or romantic life, as I'm also aro) and nobody intervenes to force me to do so. I've been pretty lucky that few people among my family, friends, and colleagues bothers to ask about my love life. Maybe my abrupt personality intimidates them... :twisted:

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Wow, this is upsetting.
I have never heard anything about it.
I dislike it most, because I'm certainly biromantic. Why do people have to make problems...?
Glad I don't have tumblr...
Internalized homophobia? What the heck?

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i've come to accept that certain types of people are just awful and will argue about anything in these communities. well, people can be shitty in communities in general. rick and morty fandom, it almost makes me not want to be a part of it tbh. i just want to stay on aven and hope i can help people instead of seeing all this bullshit being spewed at to people for stupid reasons. i want everyone to remember that no matter your sexuality or gender, we're all people not a part of some hive mind. everyone is different and identity isn't some kind of competition and there doesn't have to be any hidden meaning behind anything.

 

I'm sorry i don't have much to add to this, i'm just fed up with all these stupid and toxic things going on. I'm not calling the OP a bad person or anything, by the way.

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Wait, what? There's a stereotype aces and lesbians hate each other?? I'm confused. I thought LGBT+ communities were focused on love and acceptance of different identities, not hating each other.

And the majority of the populations are straight, why do they accuse aces of being secretly straight like it's bad? 

But then again I've never used tumblr. It's probably just tumblr stuff, hopefully there's more tolerance in the real world.

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Just now, StormySky said:

Wait, what? There's a stereotype aces and lesbians hate each other?? I'm confused. I thought LGBT+ communities were focused on love and acceptance of different identities, not hating each other.

And the majority of the populations are straight, why do they accuse aces of being secretly straight like it's bad? 

But then again I've never used tumblr. It's probably just tumblr stuff, hopefully there's more tolerance in the real world.

even if someone is ace but romantically straight, that isn't a bad thing. it's just who they are. 

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I've been visibly pro-queer my entire life, so I don't see how one could argue that I only say I'm asexual because I'm gay with internalized homophobia. There would really be nothing stopping me from being openly gay. And on that note, there's nothing stopping me from being openly straight either. I just genuinely don't want sex or romantic relationships.

 

And whether that makes me part of the LGBT+ community or not...as I've said many times around AVEN before, I'm an ally first and foremost. My support for and involvement in LGBT+ causes will always be primarily about supporting others.

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14 minutes ago, Dan99 said:

even if someone is ace but romantically straight, that isn't a bad thing. it's just who they are. 

Yep. No orientation (romantic, sexual, gender identity) is any better than any other. Minorities, majorities, rarely-heard-of orientations... we should all kinda tolerate one another.

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2 minutes ago, StormySky said:

Wait, what? There's a stereotype aces and lesbians hate each other?? I'm confused. I thought LGBT+ communities were focused on love and acceptance of different identities, not hating each other.

And the majority of the populations are straight, why do they accuse aces of being secretly straight like it's bad? 

But then again I've never used tumblr. It's probably just tumblr stuff, hopefully there's more tolerance in the real world.

Unfortunately, the LGBT+ community actually doesn't have a great history of accepting each other :P

 

At first, LGs didn't accept Bs... Now Bs are getting more acceptance, but many of those with non-straight sexualities aren't accepting non-cis genders (Ts). A lot of people say there is a little too much focus on G (and to a certain extent, L) in the ol' LGBT+ spaces.

 

It's getting better but not perfect yet... The LGBT+ community is still not always open to aces, as they see hetero-romantics as just straight people sometimes.

 

For the record, MANY in the LGBT+ community are wonderful and accepting. All my LGBT+ friends are accepting of my orientation. But it's just not the case everywhere... I don't want anyone to expect not to be accepted or think poorly of the LGBT+ community, but I think it's fair to be honest and understand the history.

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I had a gay friend who rolled his eyes about me being in the closet to my family about my sexuality. It made me feel like my sexuality was a joke and I was being overly dramatic. It was really validating when my uncle who is also gay advised me to stay in the closet while they were financial supporting me. He understood how crazy conservative my parents are. 

 

I think a lot of this is from ignorance. It happens with gays and bisexuals too where they have negative stereotypes about each other. Hopefully as our communities grow closer we can come to better understand each other.

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PitterPatterPuffin

I've never heard of that before, but i'm not the most exposed to the world person either. I wish everyone in the LGBT+ community could just get along, because all we want is to be heard, not harrassed or made fun of, and be allowed to love whoever we want, however we want (there are probably a few more things people want that i'm forgetting).

If only some one could just say, "hey everyone! lets all be nice to each other," and then everyone did. I wish it was that easy.

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I haven't heard about the stereotyped hatred between lesbians and aces, but I am Tumblr and do see the hate being spewed there. It's gotten a little better in the last six months actually, as you used to not be able to go into the asexual tag without seeing every other post talking about how asexuals were just straights who were invading LGBT+ spaces and to stay away/make our own. (Which was a whole different irritation for me because I was in the asexual tag. I was fully in the ace safe space and they were the ones invading into it too tell me to stay out of their's. It was downright hypocritical.)

 

But yes, the ace discourse is a pain on Tumblr. A lot of hatred, a lot "that's not real" and "you don't count" and even "you never experience anything negative because of your sexuality ever." Haven't seen a post telling me to kill myself in a few months, so hey, progress on the Tumblr front. And it's been at least two weeks since I saw a post saying that cishet asexuals needed to accept they are just straight.

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I didn't realize there was a lot of hate spewed between the lesbian and aro/ace community, and I'm on tumblr all the time.  If anything I see a lot more discourse between TERF lesbians and trans people (mtf and ftm, doesn't matter).  

 

I don't get it.  What does being asexual have to do with hatred towards lesbians?  Where's the connection?  Did I miss something?

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Wow. I hope that goes back to Tumblr hell where it belongs. I hate to have a great friend think I hate her.

 

The split attraction model isn't going away. It's not just aces who can describe themselves with it. 

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Lucas Monteiro

Good thing that I don't like Tumblr and the majority of bullshit from there, just stays there, theres just too much ignorant people there. I don't know if I laugh or cry from those who are part of the LGBT community and at the same time hates ace people. Their community is said to be about acceptance and understanding, and they start to spray hate. It's just pure hypocrisy, a lot of people say that they are all about love and can accept anyone, but when the time truly comes to they show that, they just don't. The worst thing in all that, is that they just create an hate cicle with that thinking. 

 

They just forgot about that : What you reap is what you sow.

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*trigger warning, mentions corrective rape*

 

 

 

I have heard this before, from a lesbian who correctively raped me and repeatedly sexually harassed me and abused me when I was in middle school. She was lesbian at the time and her cronies were a mix of sexualities. This viewpoint was seen as justification for the idea that I needed fixed and didn't deserve to make my own decisions about things. They felt good about making me so miserable I wanted to die.

 

By the definition of asexuality, we aren't straight. If we were just like everyone else, then prejudice research wouldn't indicate that asexual are viewed as the least human of all sexual minorities.

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Guest Deus Ex Infinity

Finally a thread to celebrate my self-hated in public :-D *points at signature in advance*

 

Of course NOT!!!

 

Stop fighting each other - Let's get united!

 

*rainbow hugs to all*

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Guest Deus Ex Infinity
1 hour ago, StormySky said:

Wait, what? There's adon'tereotype aces and lesbians hate each other?? I'm confused. I thought LGBT+ communities were focused on love and acceptance of different identities, not hating each other.

And the majority of the populations are straight, why do they accuse aces of being secretly straight like it's bad? 

But then again I've never used tumblr. It's probably just tumblr stuff, hopefully there's more tolerance in the real world.

Not really unfortunatedly * RL experience* but I don't care

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Salted Karamel

I've heard this one before... For those still confused, I believe the argument is that asexuals are not real, and if someone believes themselves to be asexual then they are simply a gay person with so much internalized homophobia that they can't even feel the same-gender attraction that is so obviously what they should be feeling because you can only be straight or gay. And if you're not attracted to the other gender, then you must be attracted to your own. If you're not attracted to the other gender but you're also not attracted to your own, then it's because you're a gay person with internalized homophobia.

 

Not sure where the specificity about lesbians comes in unless that's the assumption that all asexuals (or, you know, people "claiming to be asexual") are also women. 

 

There it is. I'm sorry I had to make everyone's day a little bit stupider for having read that.

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1 hour ago, KendraPM said:

"you never experience anything negative because of your sexuality ever."

THIS THIS THIS THIS! 

Since WHEN did experiencing negative stuff turn into a massive validation competition because 'lel, you don't experience X and Y so you don't count because Z'?

It doesn't matter what sexuality you are. Homophobia and discrimination are both bad things, but just because SOME aces don't experience the typical discrimination doesn't mean they are not valid. People need to stop with that sort of shit and realize this isn't a validation competition on who experiences the most stuff to be counted. 

 

At the same time, this is Tumblr. Tumblr is known to have loads of white knights and trolls and smartasses who think they know everything about sexuality and whatnot. I'm sure that most of the LGBT+ community is accepting and nice, and I don't think Tumblr is what the LGBT+ community represents as a whole. Tumblr is the finest can of salt you can buy on the internet. And no, I don't have internalized homophobia if I'm sorta not straight myself. What does being ace have to do to with hating lesbians? What? Someone get a scientist! I'm confused. 

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40 minutes ago, nemu_X said:

THIS THIS THIS THIS! 

Since WHEN did experiencing negative stuff turn into a massive validation competition because 'lel, you don't experience X and Y so you don't count because Z'?

It doesn't matter what sexuality you are. Homophobia and discrimination are both bad things, but just because SOME aces don't experience the typical discrimination doesn't mean they are not valid. People need to stop with that sort of shit and realize this isn't a validation competition on who experiences the most stuff to be counted. 

 

At the same time, this is Tumblr. Tumblr is known to have loads of white knights and trolls and smartasses who think they know everything about sexuality and whatnot. I'm sure that most of the LGBT+ community is accepting and nice, and I don't think Tumblr is what the LGBT+ community represents as a whole. Tumblr is the finest can of salt you can buy on the internet. And no, I don't have internalized homophobia if I'm sorta not straight myself. What does being ace have to do to with hating lesbians? What? Someone get a scientist! I'm confused. 

Exactly. I tried to point that out to someone one time, when they said something about how asexuals don't experience the same discrimination that homosexuals to. I said that a rich, white, gay man in liberal town does not experience the same discrimination as a middleclass, black, trans woman in a small conservative town. Level of discrimination has nothing to do to with validity of an orientation.

 

I think, but don't quote me on this, the tie into lesbian hate no matter what it is, is more of a Tumblr thing. I've seen a few rants about how Hollywood hates lesbians and men hate lesbians, and some weird post about how bisexual women were setting out to deceive lesbians (there was a lot of arguments on both side in response to that post) etc. I didn't give it much thought, it's Tumblr someone's always complaining about something, but maybe it's tied to that?

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People are talking shit about things they know nothing about? On the internet? :o

 

What else is new.

 

There will be asexuals out there who hate lesbians, just like there are straight/bi/pan/??? folks out there who hate lesbians. You can just as well replace "lesbians" with any other orientation and there will be people who hate just that.

 

Some people are just crappy human beings, regardless of their orientation.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Snaocula said:

I'm too old for this to have really come up in my peer group, thankfully. I'm not on Tumblr and I just tune out to a lot of discussions off AVEN with strangers online.

Same. This is the first I’ve heard of this. Sounds like lack of understanding to me? I don’t really understand the argument behind that thinking, to be honest.

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5 hours ago, Graveful said:

Same. This is the first I’ve heard of this. Sounds like lack of understanding to me? I don’t really understand the argument behind that thinking, to be honest.

I seem to be older than most people on here and yet this idea was around before Tumblr, at least in fringe groups.

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swirl_of_blue

I haven't heard of anything like this, but I'm not on Tumblr and have never taken part in any LGBT+ groups, so I really don't know anything about common misconceptions/prejudice/whatever. The only way I could see "aces hating lesbians" as having any logic would be a kind of backlash: homosexuals, both women and men, are still sometimes seen as hypersexual people who all have this hugely high libido and who see everyone of their own gender just as a potential bed partner. In addition asexuals are sometimes portrayed as being heavily antisexual and looking down upon sexuals and especially those who are proud of their sexuality. So a stereotypical "antisexual elitist ace" might indeed not like a "lusting after everyone of my own gender and showing it proudly homosexual" very much. But anyone who's "in" on minority sexualities even a little bit should really be knowledgeable enough to know that neither are all (or even most) homosexuals mindless savages only ruled by their lust, nor all aces cold-hearted antisexual elitists proud of their own "purity".

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As someone who identifies as both asexual and as a lesbian i want to think this is hilarious but then I've also heard enough bad stuff from both sides. There are enough aces who give us a bad name and enough lesbians who lash out at these people to paint all of us with the same brush -- though most of the people who have said that I'm "just a closeted lesbian" have been straight.

 

I often tell people I'm 'not straight' or 'not interested in men' and it's up to them to decide what that means. I'm in a relationship with a girl and I don't see myself ever in a relationship with a man, so I think I'm entitled to the label 'lesbian' as well, even if I'm not sexually attracted to / don't sexually desire women.

 

If that means I hate myself then whatever.

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GreenWithEnby
18 hours ago, Galaxy Chaser said:

The source of all this stems from stuff with MOGAI (Marginalized Orientations, Gender identities, And Intersex) and people using the SAM (Split Attraction Model) that got into arguments with others. Some of it has to do with Cishet Asexuals being considered just 'Straight', and therefore should not be allowed in LGBT+ spaces. Along with that, it has to do with discussions of internalized homophobia... There's a lot.

Okay, a bit of clarification.

  • MOGAI/SAM: Mogai was created as a shorter form of LGBT+ (well, at least, the fully extended abbreviation), and SAM is a model of terms such as 'Heteroromantic Asexual' instead of saying 'Straight Ace'. There have been horror stories from some (maybe true, maybe not) about MOGAI (people who use that term instead of LGBT+ for any reason) forcing them to use the SAM to identify. As well as this, many people just don't like MOGAI. Some discussion was brought up when a lesbian pointed out that she felt uncomfortable with female, 'homoromantic' asexuals referring to themselves as 'gay', 'lesbian', or using any lesbian identifiers. She said that, since they weren't sexually attracted to women, they shouldn't use those terms. Since then, it has gone into a discussion about whether or not MOGAI/SAM are positive, and many other things.
  • Asexuals being considered straight: In this argument, there are 'Exclusionists' and 'Inclusionists', with the former believing that Heteroromantic, Cisgender Asexuals should not be included in the LGBT+ community, and with the latter believing that they should be included. An exclusionist argument that I've seen frequently is that being 'Asexual' is not an independent identity, it's like an add-on customization. Therefore, any transgender, gay, lesbian, etc. Aces are always LGBT+. Not because they're ace, but because they're... fill in the blank. However, they add that, by this logic, straight, cisgender aces are not LGBT+. Basically, being asexual/aromantic does not make you inherently LGBT+
  • Internalized Homophobia: This goes along with the MOGAI/SAM thing, but it is believed (by many if not all exclusionists) that MOGAI/Inclusionists talking about Asexuality, being Aromantic, and any other 'special snowflake' identities (such as NB genders, gray-specs, etc) will influence young LGBP kids. Basically, if a young LGBP kid were to feel attraction to their same gender, but then feel guilty about it and regret it, or some other shame sort of thing, they might see asexuality and think 'wow! i dont feel sexual attraction to the opposite gender, so I must be ace'. and therefore perpetuate internalized homophobia.

This said;

  • Not All Exclusionists Hate Asexuals. Many just don't want to share safe spaces with their abusers (although that isn't always a valid argument), or... maybe something else. There are many reasons that they feel Asexuals are not inherently LGBT+, and they might even be Asexual themselves.
  • Not All Inclusionists Are Good People. Fairly self explanatory. Both sides of this argument have issues.
  • Most Of This Can Be Translated To Aromantics As Well, but a LARGE PERCENTAGE of this, especially the various threats, hateful words, and random negative comments (ie: "haha just a daily reminder that i hate asexuals"have been directed just at Asexuals. Sometimes it's implied to be directed at Aromantics as well, but others it's ambiguous, or explicitly only directed at Asexuals.

 

Hope this helped clear things up!

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8 minutes ago, Galaxy Chaser said:

Okay, a bit of clarification.

  • MOGAI/SAM: Mogai was created as a shorter form of LGBT+ (well, at least, the fully extended abbreviation), and SAM is a model of terms such as 'Heteroromantic Asexual' instead of saying 'Straight Ace'. There have been horror stories from some (maybe true, maybe not) about MOGAI (people who use that term instead of LGBT+ for any reason) forcing them to use the SAM to identify. As well as this, many people just don't like MOGAI. Some discussion was brought up when a lesbian pointed out that she felt uncomfortable with female, 'homoromantic' asexuals referring to themselves as 'gay', 'lesbian', or using any lesbian identifiers. She said that, since they weren't sexually attracted to women, they shouldn't use those terms. Since then, it has gone into a discussion about whether or not MOGAI/SAM are positive, and many other things.
  • Asexuals being considered straight: In this argument, there are 'Exclusionists' and 'Inclusionists', with the former believing that Heteroromantic, Cisgender Asexuals should not be included in the LGBT+ community, and with the latter believing that they should be included. An exclusionist argument that I've seen frequently is that being 'Asexual' is not an independent identity, it's like an add-on customization. Therefore, any transgender, gay, lesbian, etc. Aces are always LGBT+. Not because they're ace, but because they're... fill in the blank. However, they add that, by this logic, straight, cisgender aces are not LGBT+. Basically, being asexual/aromantic does not make you inherently LGBT+
  • Internalized Homophobia: This goes along with the MOGAI/SAM thing, but it is believed (by many if not all exclusion) that MOGAI/Inclusionists talking about Asexuality, being Aromantic, and any other 'special snowflake' identities (such as NB genders, gray-specs, etc) will influence young LGBP kids. Basically, if a young LGBP kid were to feel attraction to their same gender, but then feel guilty about it and regret it, or some other shame sort of thing, they might see asexuality and think 'wow! i dont feel sexual attraction to the opposite gender, so I must be ace'. and therefore perpetuate internalized homophobia.

This said;

  • Not All Exclusionists Hate Asexuals. Many just don't want to share safe spaces with their abusers (although that isn't always a valid argument), or... maybe something else. There are many reasons that they feel Asexuals are not inherently LGBT+, and they might even be Asexual themselves.
  • Not All Inclusionists Are Good People. Fairly self explanatory. Both sides of this argument have issues.
  • Most Of This Can Be Translated To Aromantics As Well, but a LARGE PERCENTAGE of this, especially the various threats, hateful words, and random negative comments (ie: "haha just a daily reminder that i hate asexuals"have been directed just at Asexuals. Sometimes it's implied to be directed at Aromantics as well, but others it's ambiguous, or explicitly only directed at Asexuals.

 

Hope this helped clear things up!

These are good summaries of the issues, thanks!

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Nice to know I have internalised homophoboa despite being a bironamtic demi. It must be true cause tumblr said so cause tumblr isn't a hateful site populated by angry brats no no its the pinnacle of accuracy. It's so accurate that it's postings must be taken to heart despite majority of people outside not sharing it's views. 

Jfc I've been around the ace community for years and I've never seen this Aces hate Lesbians thing till today.

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