I'm tired

[butterflydreams]

Yeah, I sure am. 

 

This is a rant you can read or not read, disagree or agree with. 

 

I'm so tired of the politics of gender, and gender identity. I don't like feeling like I have to hold certain opinions, and I'm tired of seeing the vitriol directed at "evil" straight white men. I grew up learning you don't judge someone by factors they cannot control, and being straight, white, and a man are all factors no one can control. I'm tired of hearing that "diversity" is good, in and of itself, and that "diversity" amounts to what's in your pants, what color your skin is instead of what really counts, which is what's in your head and heart.

 

I'm tired of people treating gender like it's some kind of aesthetic when all I'm thinking is "fuck man, I'm just trying to survive here." Brynn Tannehill and Julia Serrano can say what they want, but I absolutely do believe that there are people out there who "pretend" to be trans. Not pretend exactly, they might think they really are, but instead of trying to just be and live their lives, they make a whole big deal out of it because being trans is "cool". These are the people who do things like argue for misgendering to be illegal. You know what? That's a surefire way to get hellfire pushback against all trans people. That's how Trump got elected. When you start demanding special treatment, instead of the right to be left alone, even people who would've supported you start to push back. Dammit, we can't afford to lose those people. They want to support us!

 

I'm tired of the disingenuousness in trans discussions. The flying off the handle at shit. Was she killed because she was trans? Or because her drug deal went south? Let's not pretend we know it's the former so we can garner sympathies for all the responsible fucking trans people out there who are your neighbors, coworkers, friends and family. Working hard and living their lives the best they can not doing illegal shit. And what rights do we lack? Aside from improving document change laws where they are unnecessarily restrictive and not getting canned from your job simply because you're trans, what are we missing?

 

And I hate to say it the most, but I'm tired of the trans community sometimes too. The banal shit that comes up, and the horseshoe theory in action. I love that I'm a woman. I love it so much I turned my life upside down to make it happen. How am I supposed to feel when someone says gender doesn't matter or gender doesn't exist? I'm tired of seeing trans people (mostly younger) who act like whoever can fill their grab bag with the most dysfunction wins. Trans people (at least in my view) aren't a bunch of fragile flowers knocked down by the slightest breeze. We're tough as fuck. We get knocked down, and we stand up, again and again and again.

 

I'm just tired. Thanks for listening.

 

Edited to add: You know what the hardest part about being trans is? It's working to make sure that being trans isn't the most interesting unique thing about you. Everyone seems to forget that.

[Groobly]

There's some truth to what you say, in that gender politics can potentially muddy the waters and make things worse for everyone. However, at the same time, a lot of the shit you're saying I feel like gets blown way out of proportion by people trying to make a quick buck on the internet. The white straight men are the enemy narrative isn't nearly as prevalent as some people would have you believe, and most of the shit you see are just op-eds or random insignificant people's opinions, and nobody can stop people from having opinions. As for how you feel about...fake trans people, or whatever you'd prefer calling it, I'm not gonna tell you how to feel about that. I'm not trans, so I could never imagine what it's like. However, I will point out that when they say "gender doesn't matter", they're likely not envisioning the same thing you are.

 

Also, this probably belongs more in the "Hot Box" section of the forums, as you'll possibly come across some heated disagreement here. Either way, good on you for sharing your perspective, and I hope it results in some useful conversations.

[butterflydreams]

10 minutes ago, Groobly said:

Also, this probably belongs more in the "Hot Box" section of the forums, as you'll possibly come across some heated disagreement here.

Thanks, but I'd prefer it stay here. We're all mature adults here. We can have a good discussion. Gender things never fare well in hot box anyway.

[K.I.N.G]

I am so fucking scared i maybe one - one reason being my dysphoria is nowhere nearly as bad as some get it. I do agree to degree that being trans shouldn't be all you are, nor should you let it change your personality and a persons gender is something to be respected. 

[butterflydreams]

24 minutes ago, I Am Mel said:

one reason being my dysphoria is nowhere nearly as bad as some get it

I'm certainly not saying anything about "you must have this much dysphoria to ride." My whole thing has always been for you, if it's enough dysphoria to do something about, it's enough. There's no standard level that's enough. It depends on the individual.

[Starbogen]

Yeah I also get annoyed by all the people who say gender doesn't exist or doesn't matter or is just all made up and ideally no one would be anything or it would all be the same no matter what anyone was... Like okay, I get that gender stereotypes and expectations and all that can be really shitty, but some people happen to like being their gender and/or having a very typically masculine or feminine gender expression. To some people it actually means a lot, so why try to take that away or make it sound like it's something bad?

 

It kinda reminds me of people who say they don't see color, and all I can think is.. yes okay I get that you're trying to say you're not racist but being colorblind, or genderblind in this case doesn't sound like a solution, imo it should be more like "there are different things people can be and that's okay" instead of "we're all the same because these things doesn't exist/don't matter".

 

And yeah I also worry sometimes that being a trans guy might be the most definitive thing about me right now. It's not a good feeling.

[Was here]

I honestly feel like a "transtrender"/fake transgender. my dysphoria usually goes away and i can feel completely fine until i start thinking about it (optional tmi part)

Spoiler

or am sexually aroused

,plus how i imagine myself as a guy can get very unrealistic.

[Starbogen]

28 minutes ago, I Am Mel said:

I am so fucking scared i maybe one - one reason being my dysphoria is nowhere nearly as bad as some get it. I do agree to degree that being trans shouldn't be all you are, nor should you let it change your personality and a persons gender is something to be respected. 

About dysphoria.. Apparently there are trans people who don't feel it at all, and while I personally can't understand how that works or even imagine it, who am I to say they aren't trans.. I think being trans is just about being more comfortable as a gender that wasn't the one you had been assumed to be based on your sex. So if you were afab and living as a girl was "fine" or "doable" but living as a guy or something else was "awesome" or "great" or even just "nice" then that sounds like more than reasonable cause to identify as trans to me.

 

Also, dysphoria can change with time and as you figure out more about yourself. I've heard often that before you do the things you feel you need to do to aliviate it it just gets worse and that's definitely been true for me. Plus like.. the things that I've felt I needed/wanted to do have progressed. When I was like 15 I only felt dyphoria about my chest and my lower parts although I didn't recognize it as such. But now.. now it's like practically everything other than my face. Before I only wanted a chest reduction, now I want top surgery and HRT and a hysto and maybe even bottom surgery. Things can change, but even if they don't that's okay too.

[binary suns]

Thank you for sharing

 

 

 

Today, I came out to my hairdresser, and we had a really good conversation about... life.. y'know? she was really cool about it.

 

so far I've come out to four friends and they've all been super supportive. And we'd talk about just, y'know, life in general.

 

right now tho. I know, that I have to make my gender the #1 thing that I care about, just so that I can be my gender. I want to be able to care about other things, not gender, but what can I say..

 

the thing that I have to talk about right now in my life? anxiety. it's so weird to talk about. I can't be social without making myself emotionally vulnerable, because literally the only topic of conversation I have is facing anxiety

[Chardog]

I’m getting to the point I’m legitimately thinking about “doing something about me”.. I don’t want to be trans. I just want to live my life as my authentic self. One of the big reasons I don’t is because I feel like I’ll have to constantly “explain myself” to people.. Which is more emotional energy than dealing with dysphoria at this point.

 

**I couldn’t fly under the radar because I work in an industry where I’m well known and now have a high profile position. Between living in a state with protections and work being LGBT friendly, my job isn’t at risk, but cringing at ma’am or discussing why I’m changing- so far I’ll take the former even though it’s gradualy sucking my soul out of me.

[SkyWorld]

I agree and disagree with some of what you've said. I'm more than willing to just talk about it. -- OH wait no, I misread what you said in your 5th paragraph. Sorry! Yes, I do agree with everything you've touched on. I'll just keep and share my thoughts as well.

 

Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable when people would hate on "straight white men" and some people add Christian to that. I just don't think it's fair to lump a group of people so generally, it enforces those stereotypes. I can see why people can be upset at a group of people based on their history, but that doesn't excuse it. It's similar to how even people of color can be racist (some of my family members fit this statement). -- I'm kind of confused about what particularly do you mean by "diversity", so that I could elaborate more on what I think. Do you mean in the media, government, social life, all of the above?

 

I agree here too. I honestly feel like the LGBT+ community in general is just really fetishized a lot by those who don't identify as LGBT+. A person is not their sexuality or gender, they're so much more than that. Yes, that can be important to a person, especially for accepting themselves more (that's seriously great for them), but my point still stands how there's still much more to a person, whether if that is considered "good" or "bad". Being LGBT+ doesn't make someone "cool", there are plenty of LGBT+ people who make me cringe and not because of their sexuality and/or gender, but their actions and personality.

 

I also think it's unreasonable to have "misgendering" be against the law. Sometimes it's an honest mistake or perhaps ignorance. It doesn't necessarily mean ill-intent. Though even for those who do so maliciously, I think it's similar to disrespecting any other group of people. Yeah, it's wrong but they can technically get away with that with "freedom of speech" and all. However, just because they have that, doesn't mean other people can't exercise their freedom of speech as well and voice how much of an asshole said disrespectful person is.

 

-- I had totally misread what you wrote here, sorry. I was about to touch on how it's no coincidence how many trans people are murdered and targeted. It hits close to home, sometimes actually close to where I live... It's why I'm afraid of being by myself when I'm just minding my own business. It can be dangerous...

 

I can see how gender might not matter to some people personally, but that doesn't also mean that it doesn't matter to someone else and I don't think it's okay for people to dismiss that.

 

Thanks for sharing, Hadley!  

[butterflydreams]

8 hours ago, SpoopyWorld said:

I'm kind of confused about what particularly do you mean by "diversity", so that I could elaborate more on what I think. Do you mean in the media, government, social life, all of the above?

I was mostly thinking about the corporate world and hiring practices. Companies even have “diversity officers” to help make the company more diverse. But instead of focusing on the diversity of mind and heart that matters, they focus on superficial things like sex and skin color. I think that’s really a step backwards.

 

8 hours ago, SpoopyWorld said:

I had totally misread what you wrote here, sorry. I was about to touch on how it's no coincidence how many trans people are murdered and targeted. It hits close to home, sometimes actually close to where I live... It's why I'm afraid of being by myself when I'm just minding my own business. It can be dangerous...

I don’t mean to say that no trans people are ever killed just for being trans, but IMO trans people themselves overstate the problem. Every time I see a report, I dig into it to find the whole story. Oh, this person was dealing drugs, got into a fight with a customer and got shot. How does them being trans fit into that? Honestly, counting that person as a “murdered trans person” is insulting to me. It’s saying I too could be murdered just like that. No. I don’t deal drugs or do illegal things that would put me at risk. I’m sure trans people are occasionally killed just for being trans. Definitely. But by conflating them with basic criminals how do we know? That’s insulting to those killed for being trans and going about their lives. That’s why I speak out against it.

 

I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses.

[Was here]

16 minutes ago, Hadley167 said:

I was mostly thinking about the corporate world and hiring practices. Companies even have “diversity officers” to help make the company more diverse. But instead of focusing on the diversity of mind and heart that matters, they focus on superficial things like sex and skin color. I think that’s really a step backwards.

 

I don’t mean to say that no trans people are ever killed just for being trans, but IMO trans people themselves overstate the problem. Every time I see a report, I dig into it to find the whole story. Oh, this person was dealing drugs, got into a fight with a customer and got shot. How does them being trans fit into that? Honestly, counting that person as a “murdered trans person” is insulting to me. It’s saying I too could be murdered just like that. No. I don’t deal drugs or do illegal things that would put me at risk. I’m sure trans people are occasionally killed just for being trans. Definitely. But by conflating them with basic criminals how do we know? That’s insulting to those killed for being trans and going about their lives. That’s why I speak out against it.

 

I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses.

it's an unfortunate thing about minorities. everyone wants to play victim when a news story like that happens. they never report "this person did something bad so there's a reason this happened" it's always "everyone's _____phobic and _____ people are getting killed left and right". even it does say the first thing, people will scream about how _____phobic it is. my dad complains constantly about how wrong this is. how the media always makes everything seem like a bigger issue than it actually is. you can't even really trust the news anymore because it's about "who can report this thing first and make the most clickbaity article to make people mad" and not about having accurate information.

[Guest]

I can understand some of the things you say there, Hadley. Some of the things i've noticed is that there are individuals who say they are trans because they "like it" and that feels so wrong to hear that. How can you actually like being trans while it's a daily struggle for those who to try to live their authentic lives? Then there is the constant amoisity between those who say there is no such thing as Gender and those who say Gender very well exists.I notice that too in Hot Box taking AVEN as an example and i see it on the media hence why i don't get myself involved in the Gender related discussions there or read the negative articles on Gender in the media and i do follow LGBT news on a regular base and parcipiate in gender related discussions on this forum from time to time.

I feel that the influence of these (especially the popular bloggers) is pretty huge amongst those who have little knowledge on trans and nonbinary issues if they put trans folks in a negative daylight in their articles.It worries me alot though as there are people out there who  might be influenced in a negative way while exploring their gender identity. I already see that happening now and your post is the proof of it. I feel there is alot that needs to be changed when it comes to visibility and education gender wise.

 

But to be frank: I think that the main issue is that trans folks often feel attacked, thus i can't blaim them for their behavior and yeah, it's not pretty to read a trans guy died instead of just "A guy died"  on the newspaper, just like i don't like reading comments from people who claim do support LGBT+ who say: "He is Agender and uses the they/them pronouns, that doesn't sound very positive to me.Like i said before: I don't blaim trans folks for their behavior, I understand where it comes from if you look close enough at the reasoning of their very behavior.I do get that you're upset and i don't blaim you as it's totally normal to respond the way you do when dealing with these issues.

[Was here]

7 minutes ago, Jayce said:

I can understand some of the things you say there, Hadley. Some of the things i've noticed is that there are individuals who say they are trans because they "like it" and that feels so wrong to hear that. How can you actually like being trans while it's a daily struggle for those who to try to live their authentic lives? Then there is the constant amoisity between those who say there is no such thing as Gender and those who say Gender very well exists.I notice that too in Hot Box taking AVEN as an example and i see it on the media hence why i don't get myself involved in the Gender related discussions there or read the negative articles on Gender in the media and i do follow LGBT news on a regular base.

I feel that the influence of these (especially the popular bloggers) is pretty huge amongst those who have little knowledge on trans and nonbinary issues if they put trans folks in a negative daylight in their articles.It worries me alot though as there are people out there who  might be influenced in a negative way while exploring their gender identity. I already see that happening now and your post is the proof of it. I feel there is alot that needs to be changed when it comes to visibility and education gender wise.

 

But to be frank: I think that the main issue is that trans folks often feel attacked, thus i can't blaim them for their behavior and yeah, it's not pretty to read a trans guy died instead of just "A guy died"  on the newspaper, just like i don't like reading comments from people who do support LGBT+ who say: "He is Agender and uses the they/them pronouns. Like i said before: I don't blaim trans folks for their behavior, I understand where it comes from if you look close enough at the reasoning of their very behavior.I do get that you're upset and i don't blaim you as it's totally normal to respond the way you do when dealing with these issues.

I don't think anyone likes being trans -- they like knowing who they are, they like transitioning (not for that in itself; I mean liking transitioning as in feeling like you're getting better), they like doing something to feel better about themselves.

 

unless I misinterpreted that.

 

more stupid doubt stuff which everyone can ignore, but I didn't know whether to delete it or not. TL;DR maybe 'transtrenders' exist and I have problems trusting myself or something like that.

Spoiler

maybe I believe though that there might be people who want to be trans because it's 'cool'? which is stupid. why anyone would do that ever is beyond me. i'm afraid i'm just a transtrender though honestly, but I can't tell since I genuinely have dysphoria that can go from very little or nonexistent to driving me insane. and I have anxiety or OCD poblems where I obsess or over things, so I don't know :/ and unrealistic fantasies... jesus i'm so bad at knowing myself in any way. like everything I think about or do is wrong somehow.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Dan99 said:

I don't think anyone likes being trans -- they like knowing who they are, they like transitioning (not for that in itself; I mean liking transitioning as in feeling like you're getting better), they like doing something to feel better about themselves.

 

unless I misinterpreted that.

 

more stupid doubt stuff which everyone can ignore, but I didn't know whether to delete it or not. TL;DR maybe 'transtrenders' exist and I have problems trusting myself or something like that.

  Reveal hidden contents

maybe I believe though that there might be people who want to be trans because it's 'cool'? which is stupid. why anyone would do that ever is beyond me. i'm afraid i'm just a transtrender though honestly, but I can't tell since I genuinely have dysphoria that can go from very little or nonexistent to driving me insane. and I have anxiety or OCD poblems where I obsess or over things, so I don't know :/ and unrealistic fantasies... jesus i'm so bad at knowing myself in any way. like everything I think about or do is wrong somehow.

One thing: A trans person transitions to be able to live their authentic life and not because they can feel better about themselves so in short: A trans guy is a guy and a trans girl is a girl. That's the crux of what Hadley is trying to point out. About the trans trender issue: Yes, you do read that right, I do notice a certain trend of individuals saying their trans for the aesthetics/liking it as someone who visits this forum for quite a long time and that is worrying me, that doesn't make them trans trenders, but it's a thing i've noticed. I feel that the entire meaning of being trans is often being taken out of context wich is why some trans folks might feel attacked because of the miscommunication coming from things being taken out of context.

 

Another thing: Only you can determine your gender identity so guiltripping yourself over that isn't really useful nor does it benefit you trying to find out your own gender identity

[butterflydreams]

34 minutes ago, Jayce said:

I feel that the influence of these (especially the popular bloggers) is pretty huge amongst those who have little knowledge on trans and nonbinary issues if they put trans folks in a negative daylight in their articles.It worries me alot though as there are people out there who  might be influenced in a negative way while exploring their gender identity. I already see that happening now and your post is the proof of it. I feel there is alot that needs to be changed when it comes to visibility and education gender wise.

See, I’ve definitely followed, read and listened to some of the most anti LGBT stuff you could possibly imagine. I was just curious. Think Pastor Anderson. Obviously I want to disbelieve what they say. And a lot of it is bullshit, but sometimes I see things happening that prove them right. I see stuff that looks like “recruiting” when it comes to kids and youth. Like this is a “lifestyle”. 

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by my post being proof of being influenced negatively?

 

34 minutes ago, Jayce said:

I don't blaim trans folks for their behavior, I understand where it comes from if you look close enough at the reasoning of their very behavior.I do get that you're upset and i don't blaim you as it's totally normal to respond the way you do when dealing with these issues.

Hmm, see, I guess I do blame trans people for their behavior. Maybe that’s the difference. I think we should be doing it better than everyone else, not whining and asking for a pass because of reasons. But that’s just a matter of personal view I suppose.

 

I wouldn’t say I’m upset, just tired. It’s exhausting feeling like half of regular people are against you and then trans people themselves are doing things that are just going to make people hate you more. Respect is a two way street I guess. And I think I’m more for picking your battles. I don’t want to make pronouns the hill I die on, you know? For trans people especially, I think one of the biggest things is making sure medical care is available. Even in an accepting and tolerant area like where I live, medical care for trans people is limited. God only knows what it’s like elsewhere. 

 

Edited to add:

 

A lot of people will say transtrenders (however you choose to define that) don’t exist. I believe this is one of the most hurtful things to say. I think they do exist and denying that they exist doesn’t help them, or trans people. 

[Was here]

3 minutes ago, Jayce said:

One thing: A trans person transitions to be able to live their authentic life and not because they can feel better about themselves so in short: A trans guy is a guy and a trans girl is a girl. That's the crux of what Hadley is trying to point out. About the trans trender issue: Yes, you do read that right, I do notice a certain trend of individuals saying their trans for the aesthetics/liking it as someone who visits this forum for quite a long time and that is worrying me, that doesn't make them trans trenders, but it's a thing i've noticed. I feel that the entire meaning of being trans is often being taken out of context wich is why some trans folks might feel attacked because of the miscommunication coming from things being taken out of context.

 

Another thing: Only you can determine your gender identity so guiltripping yourself over that isn't really useful nor does it benefit you trying to find out your own gender identity

that's what I meant, sorry ^^; I didn't know how to say it right, heh.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by my post being proof of being influenced negatively?

It's especially this portion that touch what i felt about your post:

 

Quote

I'm so tired of the politics of gender, and gender identity. I don't like feeling like I have to hold certain opinions, and I'm tired of seeing the vitriol directed at "evil" straight white men. I grew up learning you don't judge someone by factors they cannot control, and being straight, white, and a man are all factors no one can control. I'm tired of hearing that "diversity" is good, in and of itself, and that "diversity" amounts to what's in your pants, what color your skin is instead of what really counts, which is what's in your head and heart.

 

I'm tired of people treating gender like it's some kind of aesthetic when all I'm thinking is "fuck man, I'm just trying to survive here." Brynn Tannehill and Julia Serrano can say what they want, but I absolutely do believe that there are people out there who "pretend" to be trans. Not pretend exactly, they might think they really are, but instead of trying to just be and live their lives, they make a whole big deal out of it because being trans is "cool". These are the people who do things like argue for misgendering to be illegal. You know what? That's a surefire way to get hellfire pushback against all trans people. That's how Trump got elected. When you start demanding special treatment, instead of the right to be left alone, even people who would've supported you start to push back. Dammit, we can't afford to lose those people. They want to support us!

 

I'm tired of the disingenuousness in trans discussions. The flying off the handle at shit. Was she killed because she was trans? Or because her drug deal went south? Let's not pretend we know it's the former so we can garner sympathies for all the responsible fucking trans people out there who are your neighbors, coworkers, friends and family. Working hard and living their lives the best they can not doing illegal shit. And what rights do we lack? Aside from improving document change laws where they are unnecessarily restrictive and not getting canned from your job simply because you're trans, what are we missing?

 

The bolded is definetly an indication of the amoisity i see in the LGBT+ community vs others hence why LGBT+ and trans folks in particular could be negatively influenced because they feel attacked hence respond to others the way they do when they are negatively painted in i.e the media or by those who are as you say "Trans because it's cool", please do correct me if i misinterpreted that part.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

See, I’ve definitely followed, read and listened to some of the most anti LGBT stuff you could possibly imagine. I was just curious. Think Pastor Anderson. Obviously I want to disbelieve what they say. And a lot of it is bullshit, but sometimes I see things happening that prove them right. I see stuff that looks like “recruiting” when it comes to kids and youth. Like this is a “lifestyle”.

 

I understand, transphobia is a worrysome issue i see on a daily base.While i don't really get Pastor Andersons' views i personally can understand  why things happen that prove them right, because of the influence they have on society as a pastor despite their opinions on LGBT stuff.It is BS but that doesn't take away that they could be right because i do see LGBT+ folks going out of line in my own enviroment. I.E members of the local LGBT community bringing pink host wafers (forgive my english) into church while they disturbed the service when the pastor explicitly told them they are welcome in church as long as they abide by the church rules while in the building and they disagreed with that with more amoisity between the church and them as a result of their behavior. It was big news when it happened years ago.This is a good school example of why people are being proven right when it comes to anti LGBT opinions because some do mess it up for others who mean it well. I do not say that Pastor Andersons' opinions are or aren't okay, I just don't get them. I don't know the guy but i do see why people reason the way they do when it comes to LGBT+  issues.

 

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

A lot of people will say transtrenders (however you choose to define that) don’t exist. I believe this is one of the most hurtful things to say. I think they do exist and denying that they exist doesn’t help them, or trans people. 

I'm careful with saying trans trenders do exist but i notice there definetly is something like that going on as far as i've experienced.Yes, it's hurtful to deny transtrenders but i can't exactly go to someone and say: "Hey, you're a trans trender!" I might misinterpret their reasoning behind gender but mine isn't stated as a fact either so i'd be the last to judge them for it.I regonise your concerns with this but it's just a common courtesy for me to be careful with it because some might question like i did along time ago when i blaimed myself for fooling myself into being trans. It can be very painful to read.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dan99 said:

that's what I meant, sorry ^^; I didn't know how to say it right, heh.

That's okay Dan! No worries

 

[butterflydreams]

10 minutes ago, Jayce said:

The bolded is definetly an indication of the amoisity i see in the LGBT+ community vs others hence why LGBT+ and trans folks in particular could be negatively influenced because they feel attacked hence respond to others the way they do when they are negatively painted in i.e the media or by those who are as you say "Trans because it's cool", please do correct me if i misinterpreted that part.

Nope, I see what you’re saying. I don’t know if that’s exactly what I’m experiencing, but I do believe it happens.

 

10 minutes ago, Jayce said:

I'm careful with saying trans trenders do exist but i notice there definetly is something like that going on as far as i've experienced.Yes, it's hurtful to deny transtrenders but i can't exactly go to someone and say: "Hey, you're a trans trender!" I might misinterpret their reasoning behind gender but mine isn't stated as a fact either so i'd be the last to judge them for it.I regonise your concerns with this but it's just a common courtesy for me to be careful with it because some might question like i did along time ago when i blaimed myself for fooling myself into being trans. It can be very painful to read.

No I’d never just call someone a transtrender, I just wish we could at least come to an agreement that they exist. I definitely think there are people who say they are trans because being trans is trendy right now. Look at all the attention trans people get (good and bad). I think there are definitely incentives in certain environments to say you’re trans. Especially if you’re in an environment where people are bashing straight cis people. Another reason not to do that. Back when I was younger, it was trendy to call yourself bisexual. Because you didn’t really have to do anything about it. You could just say you were and people would have to take your word for it. It’s similar now. The only difference is that saying you’re bi when you aren’t isn’t going to hurt anything, but saying you’re trans when you’re not you could really mess up your body permanently. This is just one reason why I’m not against reasonable gatekeeping. Making sure the right people are treated properly helps to ensure that people will continue to get treatment in the future. 

[chridd]

21 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

Brynn Tannehill and Julia Serrano can say what they want, but I absolutely do believe that there are people out there who "pretend" to be trans. Not pretend exactly, they might think they really are, but instead of trying to just be and live their lives, they make a whole big deal out of it because being trans is "cool". These are the people who do things like argue for misgendering to be illegal.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're pretending, though.  There are plenty of trans people, and trans people can have any personality type, beliefs, attitudes, etc., so there are almost certainly trans people out there (who are actually trans) who are the sort of person who would make a big deal about it and want special treatment.

 

Regarding misgendering being illegal: There's a difference between accidentally misgendering someone (due to not knowing, forgetting, making a mistake, etc.), and going out of your way to misgender someone as much as possible.  Making the former illegal doesn't seem that reasonable to me, but the latter in some cases could be harassment.  Also, making policies that requires employees to misgender people (e.g., requiring them to always call customers "ma'am" or "sir"), or making an automated system that requires people to enter their legal gender and then uses that to refer to them, could be more reasonable to have laws against.

 

22 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

How am I supposed to feel when someone says gender doesn't matter or gender doesn't exist?

Probably gender doesn't matter to them; or that person wants gender not to matter, or knows other people who do.  Maybe they're agender, or maybe they're trans and don't realize it and just know that gender-related stuff makes them uncomfortable (me a few years ago), or they're trans and wish they weren't, or experience more discomfort from being the wrong gender than comfort from being the right gender.

 

Also people, cis or trans, could want to not be treated differently due to their gender, or dislike gender roles, and that might be what they're talking about.  Gender doesn't matter when, say, considering someone's ability to do math or computer programming, for instance, even if some people think males are better at those things.

 

(Note: I mostly agree with your post.)

[butterflydreams]

1 hour ago, chridd said:

That doesn't necessarily mean they're pretending, though.  There are plenty of trans people, and trans people can have any personality type, beliefs, attitudes, etc., so there are almost certainly trans people out there (who are actually trans) who are the sort of person who would make a big deal about it and want special treatment.

I didn't word it very clearly. What I meant was that those people who do it for the sake of being "cool" are often the loudest ones shouting for things. Often excessively so. Not to say that everyone shouting for things is "fake". I get that there are different kinds of trans people out there.

 

As for the misgendering part, none of it should be illegal. Misgendering isn't harassment, even if it's intentional. Unless it's harassing in nature, which is a totally separate issue. Someone can maliciously misgender me all day long, but it only makes them an asshole, and like it or not, being an asshole isn't illegal. Nor should it be. I'm really firm on this point because I feel like people have made the misgendering hill the one they want to die on and in my mind, all it does is turn off people who'd otherwise be supportive. We need those fringe supportive people. The centrists. 

 

2 hours ago, chridd said:

Probably gender doesn't matter to them; or that person wants gender not to matter, or knows other people who do.  Maybe they're agender, or maybe they're trans and don't realize it and just know that gender-related stuff makes them uncomfortable (me a few years ago), or they're trans and wish they weren't, or experience more discomfort from being the wrong gender than comfort from being the right gender.

They always come off as very aggressive when I encounter it. Maybe that's jut bad luck on my part. I respect that there are a minority of a minority out there (NB, agender-type trans people) for whom gender "doesn't matter". But in my experience, they always seem so aggressive in pushing that onto other people. "Let's remove this gender segregation, even if most people want it. Let's do away with this, even though most people want it." And I just feel like my whole life and process is being attacked by that. 

 

2 hours ago, chridd said:

Also people, cis or trans, could want to not be treated differently due to their gender, or dislike gender roles, and that might be what they're talking about.  Gender doesn't matter when, say, considering someone's ability to do math or computer programming, for instance, even if some people think males are better at those things.

I wish they'd just say that then. 

[Kimmie.]

I really understand what you are saying and probably feeling too.

 

I am personally afraid that i will look like a transtrender(maybe i am?) because of my whining all the time and all that. And that i dont have enough dysphoria , that i could survive like i am now. But i know inside that me being a man feels so wrong. And to be could a woman feels so right.

 

I am maybe not a woman but i am definitely not a man. I know that i am atleast transfeminin.

[chridd]

10 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

 

12 hours ago, chridd said:

Also people, cis or trans, could want to not be treated differently due to their gender, or dislike gender roles, and that might be what they're talking about.  Gender doesn't matter when, say, considering someone's ability to do math or computer programming, for instance, even if some people think males are better at those things.

I wish they'd just say that then. 

I think a lot of people don't know about gender identity and gender dysphoria, or don't understand it correctly, and think there's only physical sex and gender roles/norms/stereotypes—and the latter might or might not be socially constructed.

 

To clarify something: I'm not saying that people saying these things are right.  I'm saying that there's likely something real they're trying to express, even if they're misunderstanding things or committing the typical mind fallacy.  For instance, before I really understood what transgender meant and seriously considered that I might be trans, I thought I was male, but I didn't want that to matter.  It's not so much that I didn't care about my gender, but rather, I didn't want anyone else to care about my gender, because to me, caring about my gender meant thinking of me as male and making assumptions about me because of that.  There are probably other people with similar feelings, and I could imagine cis people who don't understand gender identity but have lots of negative experience with stereotypes and sexism might feel similar, because to them "caring about gender" means "stereotyping and being sexist".

[binary suns]

On 10/18/2017 at 7:39 AM, Hadley167 said:

I was mostly thinking about the corporate world and hiring practices. Companies even have “diversity officers” to help make the company more diverse. But instead of focusing on the diversity of mind and heart that matters, they focus on superficial things like sex and skin color. I think that’s really a step backwards.

And ironically, it's actually quite prejudiced for them to be making the assumption that two different ethnicities/genders/sexualities/etc couldn't  possibly be the same personalities, skills, cultural background, passion, etc.

[Guest]

I'm sick of posts judging others as "fake trans" or "transtender" for not fitting some conservative standard of "good normal trans", posts like in this topic.