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Free the Nipple, I'd like some asexual perspectives


Groobly

Free the Nipple?  

103 members have voted

  1. 1. Should a woman be able to show her nipple as much as a man can?

    • Yes, free the damn things already.
      88
    • No, hide it away, begone!
      15


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So tell me. Is there a culture in America where rape is accepted? Or do the majority of people condemn it, and the legal system reflect that as one of the harshest punishment and foci areas are on rape?

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8 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

So tell me. Is there a culture in America where rape is accepted? Or do the majority of people condemn it, and the legal system reflect that as one of the harshest punishment and foci areas are on rape?

There are examples, such as the Steubenville High School case, but I do think for the most part rape is condemned in our society. Though, one thing that isn't brought up enough is the fact that adult woman on adolescent boy sexual assault is often apologized for in our society. Also, prison rape is often used as light hearted humor in America too. There are examples of rape culture existing in America.

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Alejandrogynous
10 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

So tell me. Is there a culture in America where rape is accepted? Or do the majority of people condemn it, and the legal system reflect that as one of the harshest punishment and foci areas are on rape?

The fact that, "what was she/he/the victim wearing?" is still a question that gets asked, if not in the courtroom but amongst gossips and media, is proof that yes, the way our society thinks about rape is still very twisted.

 

But anyway, I'm not here to get in a debate about rape culture in America, I was just making the comparison that 'she was asking for it, her breast are out' is no different than 'she was asking for it, look at that short skirt', so the idea that we have to cover women's breasts 'for their own safety' and to not tempt men is problematic.

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Just now, Alejandrogynous said:

But anyway, I'm not here to get in a debate about rape culture in America,

I'm with you, I don't want this to derail. Let's keep it on topic about free the nipple. Even though I also responded, I just don't want things to get out of hand.

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I answered free them, because that seemed the most fair. But frankly I would prefer we kept all our chests covered most of the time except women who are breast feeding and all of us when swimming or sunbathing. I do think it should be more equal, and I get really torqued about the whole feed the baby in the restroom argument, I want to tell those people, "You go eat in the bathroom. Leave the baby alone!"

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4 minutes ago, HiddenLagoon said:

You applied agency to society through the use of 'forcing' as well as the tone you had set earlier, but it's ok.

Replace society with "laws" in that instance, then. You're getting really hung up on words when it's pretty clear what I meant for some reason, as if you thought I was imagining a sentient society. Our laws are our society, and in this case the laws are enforcing a double standard.

 

6 minutes ago, HiddenLagoon said:

I got it from what you were saying. Anywho now that you defined it again. I'd say this is even more loose. It's just as likely that seeing it outside of context would just make them remember the movie context and link the two. I don't see the logic.

Not immediately, of course not. This would take some time, but after awhile of seeing nipples every time you go to the beach it'd become just another normal thing to see, thus becoming less sexualized. As mentioned numorous times, there are many tribal cultures where the women don't even cover their breasts, and the men in those tribes aren't constantly one hundred percent of the time erect. It's because they know there's a time to enjoy a woman's breasts, and that's during sex.

 

9 minutes ago, HiddenLagoon said:

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Not really, you're saying shame them by claiming if they do this they're mindless primates. I'm saying they'll realize on their own that nipples don't have to always be sexual, and that they're not constantly driven by their sexuality. It's very different.

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12 minutes ago, Moonchaser said:

I answered free them, because that seemed the most fair. But frankly I would prefer we kept all our chests covered most of the time except women who are breast feeding and all of us when swimming or sunbathing. I do think it should be more equal, and I get really torqued about the whole feed the baby in the restroom argument, I want to tell those people, "You go eat in the bathroom. Leave the baby alone!"

As an asexual I can see why people have the "Keep them covered" sentiment, but I also don't really see female nipples as sexual, so it doesn't really bother me.

Yeah, that is so dumb. It happened at my local water park. People were acting so outraged, and I was shocked. She was off by herself too.

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2 minutes ago, Groobly said:

As an asexual I can see why people have the "Keep them covered" sentiment, but I also don't really see female nipples as sexual, so it doesn't really bother me.

Yeah, that is so dumb. It happened at my local water park. People were acting so outraged, and I was shocked. She was off by herself too.

Well, it's just my preference (keep them covered). I don't think it should be a law that people get hauled off for breaking. :)

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Alejandrogynous
13 minutes ago, HiddenLagoon said:

Misogyny means women hating.

Would you prefer if I said sexism? It's no less of a buzzword, but I can do that.

 

14 minutes ago, HiddenLagoon said:

Rape culture means, well I don't know what they say but for my purposes I define it as a culture where people are coerced into sex, which is broader then rape.

However when talking about an issue about social ramifications of going topless, that has nothing to do with either of these.

 

I wasn't aware assault was an issue here, but regarding that issue. We should do both. Teach people to be safe. And teach people to not assault. Same methodology as traffic accidents. We teach people to wear seat belts. And we implement programs to reduce drunk driving. However I'm unsure if the topic, going topless, is at all a factor in this, since I'm going by your word of someone elses word.

Potential assault is one of the big arguments against women going topless - essentially, that it will distract and/or tempt men. It's this idea that we have to police the way women dress based on how it will affect men, the same way boys get distracted by bra-straps so the girls are told to change. All of which feeds into, yes, rape culture. (I know I'm generalizing here with women and men, women can obviously be predators and men can be victims, I'm just trying to keep it concise.)

 

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2 minutes ago, Moonchaser said:

Well, it's just my preference (keep them covered). I don't think it should be a law that people get hauled off for breaking. :)

Yeah, which is perfectly fine in my opinion. It's why I made this post here, because I knew as asexuals there'd be a variety of ideas, ranging from mine which is since I'm asexual I don't even care about them, to other asexuals who do find them sexual and don't like to see them. Both are valid. :)

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10 minutes ago, Groobly said:

Yeah, which is perfectly fine in my opinion. It's why I made this post here, because I knew as asexuals there'd be a variety of ideas, ranging from mine which is since I'm asexual I don't even care about them, to other asexuals who do find them sexual and don't like to see them. Both are valid. :)

Actually the first-in-my-lifetime realization that males are treated differently in our culture than females was when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old and my younger brother was allowed to go without his shirt on a hot day, while I wasn't. It seemed preposterous to me, especially considering I had no breasts to speak of at the time. That first raised the red flag for me about inequality, and I've been a feminist ever since - not a rabid feminist, but hyper-aware of inequality.

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1 minute ago, Moonchaser said:

Actually the first-in-my-lifetime realization that males are treated differently in our culture than females was when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old and my younger brother was allowed to go without his shirt on a hot day, while I wasn't. It seemed preposterous to me, especially considering I had no breasts to speak of at the time. That first raised the red flag for me about inequality, and I've been a feminist ever since - not a rabid feminist, but hyper-aware of inequality.

Wow, that's just so crazy, too. Our culture is really messed up when children, who aren't even sexually mature, are held to this unfair standard.

Yeah, I actually used to be quite the anti-feminist, unfortunately. I'm really glad I woke up to the way the world works. I still don't call myself a feminist, but I do find a lot more common ground with feminists these days than I used to.

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I didn't get to read everyone's responses because I'm tired and it's past midnight, but I'm glad to see that most people are in favor of freeing the nipple based on the poll results at this point. 

 

I think the double-standard between men's and women's nipples is just ridiculous and while I personally don't want to walk around topless (I imagine I wouldn't want to even if I was a man), I think the option should be available without fear of being raped or jailed or whatever else. Also, the fact that women can't breastfeed in public is just disgusting and pretty stupid, in all honesty. I mean, babies are forced to basically either eat in public restrooms or with a blanket or something over their faces potentially in extremely hot weather. It's incredibly messed up that we do this TO BABIES. 

 

That being said, because of the extreme sexualization of women's breasts (and bodies in general) in our society, it's sadly something that is bound to take a lot of time to fully achieve. 

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23 minutes ago, sarahcasm said:

I didn't get to read everyone's responses because I'm tired and it's past midnight, but I'm glad to see that most people are in favor of freeing the nipple based on the poll results at this point. 

 

I think the double-standard between men's and women's nipples is just ridiculous and while I personally don't want to walk around topless (I imagine I wouldn't want to even if I was a man), I think the option should be available without fear of being raped or jailed or whatever else. Also, the fact that women can't breastfeed in public is just disgusting and pretty stupid, in all honesty. I mean, babies are forced to basically either eat in public restrooms or with a blanket or something over their faces potentially in extremely hot weather. It's incredibly messed up that we do this TO BABIES. 

 

That being said, because of the extreme sexualization of women's breasts (and bodies in general) in our society, it's sadly something that is bound to take a lot of time to fully achieve. 

Yeah...it's kinda a long thread. Lots of good conversations though. I'm just glad to hear so many people on board. Also, the people who aren't on board have had many interesting things to say as well. :) As a man, I never take my shirt off in public. I'm just personally really self conscious, but it's dumb that I have the option and many other people don't.

 

The fear of being jailed or raped thing is just awful. My hope is that by doing this we'll make a culture where the female nipple is more normalized, and will make men less likely to just gawk at it like the woman is just a piece of meat. We also have to do something about media sexualizing them too, but this would be a good start from my perspective.

 

Yeah...unfortunately you're completely right. We're not even taking the proper steps to stop this yet either. Though, the rallying cry to free the nipple and the attention it's getting can hopefully set us on the right path!

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Don't worry @Groobly, everyone here can see how all your comments are being misinterpreted and twisted by a certain user. This must have been very stressful for you but sadly it's one of the risks of interacting with people online.. Or interacting with anyone in general really. I hope this hasn't put too much of a damper on your day/night, and honestly it doesn't happen around here very often so hopefully it doesn't put you off the idea of interacting in these forums! :):cake:

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Just now, FictoVore. said:

Don't worry @Groobly, everyone here can see how all your comments are being misinterpreted and twisted by a certain user. This must have been very stressful for you but sadly it's one of the risks of interacting with people online.. Or interacting with anyone in general really. I hope this hasn't put too much of a damper on your day/night, and honestly it doesn't happen around here very often so hopefully it doesn't put you off the idea of interacting in these forums! :):cake:

It did at first, but people have made me feel better about it. That whole conversation just put me in a sour mood. I'm just glad it's over. Thank you for helping as well!

 

Yeah, everyone has been so nice so far, nothing but positive vibes. That's just one bump in what I assume will be an otherwise overwhelmingly positive experience. This whole asexuality thing is new to me, so having conversations in the context of it and hearing so many great and different perspectives is what I'm here for, and so far I've gotten that in spades. :D:cake:

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9 hours ago, Groobly said:

There are examples, such as the Steubenville High School case, but I do think for the most part rape is condemned in our society. Though, one thing that isn't brought up enough is the fact that adult woman on adolescent boy sexual assault is often apologized for in our society. Also, prison rape is often used as light hearted humor in America too. There are examples of rape culture existing in America.

But that isn't a culture of rape or a culture that support which rape culture mean, or at least seem like to most. Of course these issues should be handled, but if you blame (not saying you specifically) others for supporting rape culture, saying that we live in a rape culture etc. you will most likely alienate most people, as they don't recognize that. Instead of them listening to you and having a meaningful dialogue all tha tmay happen is that many may believe you indirectly accuse them of being a rapist or rape apologist (As they live in a culture of rape) and that will only polarize and alienate. For example it happen several murders each year, still we don't live in a murder culture? Most people don't rape nor murder, and most (the vast majority) condemn it and don't support it. Legally and socially we don't live in a rape culture, still we have issues regarding rape but that is a far cry of our entire culture being one of/supporting rape (!). Adress the issues at hand, instead of saying they are something else that is something different entirley and much more far-reaching. I am yet to see that prudish sentiments as men can show their nipples and women can not is one of rape culture. Perhaps it is an aspect of a prudish culture, where sex is taboo, where people are not as sexually liberated etc, but I a culture of rape? Think that if you were indeed much more conservative and didn't think women should cover up their nipples, would you be less or more inclined to debate the topic and take the arguments to yourself if the issue itself were discussed or if you percieved that you were attacked for supporting rape culture? Also keep in mind that people who don't frequent tumblr, aven, etc. won't think of rape culture as what you do, but it is likely the first time they hear it and will believe you speak of a culture tht support rape. This whole rape culture is an unthing, and at the very best it belittle what constitutes rape. 

 

That is my two cents of it. When it comes to nipples themself I really don't min. It would be strange (but just that) for both male or female to walk around topless in the streets, but in parks, beaches, saunas etc I wouldn't mind it. In the end I think it should be up to the individual female to be topless or not, as we can't do anything much more to it than that. And that is what I look for, practical solutions. If there is laws that prohibit anyone from being topless, then yes that should be lifted. But other than that? It should be up to the individual to be topless if they are comofrtable with it. 

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In honesty, I don't think the Western culture is ready to move toward 'topless for all'.

This is really what it comes down to.

 

It's not really so much that showing boobs is morally wrong.  It's just that the law is not prepared to handle the massive increase of incidents of sexual harassment that would surely result from such a repeal.  It's basically the same sort of reason why they had to go back on Prohibition; they discovered they literally can't police such a thing.

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I wouldn't go topless because I have this weird modesty thing and would be embarrassed. I have confidence and high self esteem and like my body, and yet there is this idea of modesty in my head that makes me not want to walk around with everything out.  However, I don't mind it other people did that. I mean it would definitely be distracting at first and I would be starting at a lot of people's boobs I'm not used to seeing and be a little weirded out, but I wouldn't be disgusted or judge those people and I'm sure I would get used to it in time. And as a hetero gray asexual with a very low libido, I don't see boobs or even penises and vaginas as any different than another part of the body as in they don't excite me more than like looking at a shoulder. However that may gross me out if penises and vaginas are just hanging out, but that seems completely different than boobs out for a variety of reasons. Maybe there would be more sexual harassment or maybe there would be less as people got used to seeing boobs and got bored with them and learned to control themselves?

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@Philip027 @Jade Cross I actually agree with you guys as far as that's concerned, which is definitely a problem with this. However, how do you guys feel about the idea that seeing female nipples in regular non-sexualized settings more often making nipples more normalized over time? It happened with every other weird sexualized body part over the centuries. Obviously I think we have to do something about our media as well, but I also believe this is a good step forward for the desexualization of women's bodies. It works on nudist beaches.

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Alejandrogynous
10 hours ago, ThaHoward said:

That is my two cents of it. When it comes to nipples themself I really don't min. It would be strange (but just that) for both male or female to walk around topless in the streets, but in parks, beaches, saunas etc I wouldn't mind it. In the end I think it should be up to the individual female to be topless or not, as we can't do anything much more to it than that. And that is what I look for, practical solutions. If there is laws that prohibit anyone from being topless, then yes that should be lifted. But other than that? It should be up to the individual to be topless if they are comofrtable with it. 

Well yeah, Free The Nipple isn't trying to FORCE women to go topless, haha. Nobody forces men to go topless either, that would be super weird. All we want is equality. If two people are wearing the exact same thing and only one of them gets arrested for public indecency, based solely on their sex, that's kind of fucked up, isn't it?

 

10 hours ago, ThaHoward said:

But that isn't a culture of rape or a culture that support which rape culture mean, or at least seem like to most. Of course these issues should be handled, but if you blame (not saying you specifically) others for supporting rape culture, saying that we live in a rape culture etc. you will most likely alienate most people, as they don't recognize that. Instead of them listening to you and having a meaningful dialogue all tha tmay happen is that many may believe you indirectly accuse them of being a rapist or rape apologist (As they live in a culture of rape) and that will only polarize and alienate. For example it happen several murders each year, still we don't live in a murder culture? Most people don't rape nor murder, and most (the vast majority) condemn it and don't support it. Legally and socially we don't live in a rape culture, still we have issues regarding rape but that is a far cry of our entire culture being one of/supporting rape (!). Adress the issues at hand, instead of saying they are something else that is something different entirley and much more far-reaching. I am yet to see that prudish sentiments as men can show their nipples and women can not is one of rape culture. Perhaps it is an aspect of a prudish culture, where sex is taboo, where people are not as sexually liberated etc, but I a culture of rape? Think that if you were indeed much more conservative and didn't think women should cover up their nipples, would you be less or more inclined to debate the topic and take the arguments to yourself if the issue itself were discussed or if you percieved that you were attacked for supporting rape culture? Also keep in mind that people who don't frequent tumblr, aven, etc. won't think of rape culture as what you do, but it is likely the first time they hear it and will believe you speak of a culture tht support rape. This whole rape culture is an unthing, and at the very best it belittle what constitutes rape.

As for rape culture being A Thing or not, I'm not going to debate it here only because I don't want to derail this thread (that's already seen some hiccups, lol). But pretend I didn't say rape culture - take that phrase completely out of it - and imagine I said something like this instead: One of the biggest arguments against women going topless is that it will tempt men and sexual harassment will skyrocket. Harassment is a big problem, obviously, but when it's framed like that, it's putting the responsibility on the potential victims to be careful (take precaution, cover up, don't dress too sexy, etc.) instead of on the harassers themselves to control themselves regardless. And treating the issue this way not only does disservice to women, but to boys too who are being shown that 'boys will be boys' and they just can't help it so it's the girls who should adjust themselves accordingly. Society and the law might not overtly support assault, but this way of thinking is prevalent and very, very common in the U.S.. So whether or not you want to call it 'rape culture' or something else, this plays a big part in why a lot of people are against women going topless in America.

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11 hours ago, Philip027 said:

This is really what it comes down to.

 

It's not really so much that showing boobs is morally wrong.  It's just that the law is not prepared to handle the massive increase of incidents of sexual harassment that would surely result from such a repeal.  It's basically the same sort of reason why they had to go back on Prohibition; they discovered they literally can't police such a thing.

It worked for ankles and thighs. As soon as those body parts stopped being taboo, men stopped wanting to rape women just because they started wearing shorter skirts (I don't actually think men automatically want to rape women, it just seems to be how you're wording it - an automatic assumption that men want to rape women based on what they're wearing). In other human cultures where breasts are considered a normal, every day part of life, women and young teen girls aren't raped 24/7 just because bras don't exist.. I mean, some of those cultures take virginity so seriously that they sew the girl's labia shut.. which yes is of course f***** horrendous but I'm just saying, seeing tits doesn't automatically equate to rape if tits aren't considered 'taboo'. Rapists will exist regardless of what a woman (or man) wears and it's generally not the clothes (or lack thereof) that actually encourage rape, if you ask me. If someone is capable of rape, they'll rape regardless. Blaming it on clothing choice seems to be a total cop-out and avoidance of the actual issue, oh and also shifting the blame onto the victim, obviously. 

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3 minutes ago, Jade Cross said:

It is always possible for people to become desensitized if there is constant exposure but sex for instance is still taboo regardless of how much exposure it has gotten for centuries. Would breast exposure really do anything?

Well, my goal would be to normalize female breasts to the point that it's no longer something women have to hide in fear of sexual assault, jail time, etc using constant exposure. So if you agree that constant exposure can help lead to desensitization, what changes for breasts, since they're not even directly related to sex?

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It worked for ankles and thighs. As soon as those body parts stopped being taboo, men stopped wanting to rape women just because they started wearing shorter skirts (I don't actually think men automatically want to rape women, it just seems to be how you're wording it - an automatic assumption that men want to rape women based on what they're wearing). In other human cultures where breasts are considered a normal, every day part of life, women and young teen girls aren't raped 24/7 just because bras don't exist.. I mean, some of those cultures take virginity so seriously that they sew the girl's labia shut.. which yes is of course f***** horrendous but I'm just saying, seeing tits doesn't automatically equate to rape if tits aren't considered 'taboo'. Rapists will exist regardless of what a woman (or man) wears and it's generally not the clothes (or lack thereof) that actually encourage rape, if you ask me. If someone is capable of rape, they'll rape regardless. Blaming it on clothing choice seems to be a total cop-out and avoidance of the actual issue, oh and also shifting the blame onto the victim, obviously. 

I'm not even really talking about rape, here.  I'm talking just about sexual harassment.

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I can't vote in the poll, really... I want a third option. :lol:

 

I don't like seeing either men or women topless, it makes me uncomfortable and I tend to look away. Exposure to topless men hasn't made me any more OK with it, so I doubt exposure would do much for me for women, either. 

 

Though, if one is allowed, then I don't see why not for the others. Most women would not choose to go topless, anyway, just like most men don't... 

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Topless guys are a lot more of a common sight here in Hawaii.  I'm almost always shirtless around the house myself because it's just too hot.

 

I've always told my mom that she could do it too if she wants, I wouldn't care.  But her sensibilities won't allow her.

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On 10/11/2017 at 1:02 PM, Groobly said:

Here in the United States, a debate is being had about whether or not women should be allowed to expose their breasts in public as equally as a man can. There's a deep, prudish stigma around this sort of thing, to the point of even a woman breast feeding her baby in public can draw the ire of the people around her. I'm in a group on Facebook where many debates happen, and someone shared a post discussing this topic and I was surprised to see a lot of people arguing in favor of the status quo. I'm personally absolutely one hundred percent in favor of freeing the nipple, and I'll explain why, but I figured asexuals could have a unique perspective on this issue, since perhaps you don't even consider the nipple a sexual thing just like me, or maybe even you do and it makes you feel uncomfortable because anything sex related does, so I thought an interesting discussion could be had about this.


 

So, I'm for freeing the nipple because I can't stand the double standard of men being able to go around shirtless but women can't, especially at places like the pool, or the beach. I don't like that a society is basing it's standards around the sensibilities of men when this is an issue that solely effects women. That kind of thing happens a lot, and it's never EVER justifiable. I think anyone who makes arguments in favor of keeping the nipple hidden are also making implications that men can't control their urges, which at the same time I have a feeling the people making these arguments would vehemently deny that accusation. So, it's hypocrisy at it's worst. Also, a woman's ankle used to be sexualized, and women often hid their ankles back then. Now the vast majority of people can see an ankle and think nothing of it, and I think the same can be done for the nipple. Sexualization is a more socialized phenomena then I'm sure most people are aware of, and if our media would stop treating it as a thing to be hidden--this mysterious and sexy thing--then I believe given time nipples would be about as sexy to people as a thumb.

 

 

I feel like there's gotta be some interesting asexual perspectives that are possibly contrary to my own. I can't really think of one because I'm just so in favor of this I find it hard to really get in the headspace of someone who disagrees, but I'm sure there's some interesting dialogue that could happen here, even if everyone agrees. I'm sure there's some interesting aspects to this I missed and you could even teach me a thing or two. Asexuals have a uniquely detached mindset here and I think we have a lot of useful things to say as far as this is concerned. I'm a man, so this issue will never effect me and I'm free to not wear a shirt if I choose, but damn it I can't stand double standards. I want shit like this to end, and for women to be able to decide for themselves how they want go to the beach, and if that's without a bikini top then so fucking be it, right?

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMGxpHybqWUym4IgbK8AQ 

 

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1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

Topless guys are a lot more of a common sight here in Hawaii.  I'm almost always shirtless around the house myself because it's just too hot.

 

I've always told my mom that she could do it too if she wants, I wouldn't care.  But her sensibilities won't allow her.

Well. In Florida, it's mainly centered around the beach and women go around in bikinis so small it might as be topless there too. But, more inland it's not that common ... more tank tops than topless. 

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