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Groobly

Free the Nipple, I'd like some asexual perspectives

Free the Nipple?  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. Should a woman be able to show her nipple as much as a man can?

    • Yes, free the damn things already.
      50
    • No, hide it away, begone!
      12


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Groobly   
Groobly

Here in the United States, a debate is being had about whether or not women should be allowed to expose their breasts in public as equally as a man can. There's a deep, prudish stigma around this sort of thing, to the point of even a woman breast feeding her baby in public can draw the ire of the people around her. I'm in a group on Facebook where many debates happen, and someone shared a post discussing this topic and I was surprised to see a lot of people arguing in favor of the status quo. I'm personally absolutely one hundred percent in favor of freeing the nipple, and I'll explain why, but I figured asexuals could have a unique perspective on this issue, since perhaps you don't even consider the nipple a sexual thing just like me, or maybe even you do and it makes you feel uncomfortable because anything sex related does, so I thought an interesting discussion could be had about this.


 

So, I'm for freeing the nipple because I can't stand the double standard of men being able to go around shirtless but women can't, especially at places like the pool, or the beach. I don't like that a society is basing it's standards around the sensibilities of men when this is an issue that solely effects women. That kind of thing happens a lot, and it's never EVER justifiable. I think anyone who makes arguments in favor of keeping the nipple hidden are also making implications that men can't control their urges, which at the same time I have a feeling the people making these arguments would vehemently deny that accusation. So, it's hypocrisy at it's worst. Also, a woman's ankle used to be sexualized, and women often hid their ankles back then. Now the vast majority of people can see an ankle and think nothing of it, and I think the same can be done for the nipple. Sexualization is a more socialized phenomena then I'm sure most people are aware of, and if our media would stop treating it as a thing to be hidden--this mysterious and sexy thing--then I believe given time nipples would be about as sexy to people as a thumb.

 

 

I feel like there's gotta be some interesting asexual perspectives that are possibly contrary to my own. I can't really think of one because I'm just so in favor of this I find it hard to really get in the headspace of someone who disagrees, but I'm sure there's some interesting dialogue that could happen here, even if everyone agrees. I'm sure there's some interesting aspects to this I missed and you could even teach me a thing or two. Asexuals have a uniquely detached mindset here and I think we have a lot of useful things to say as far as this is concerned. I'm a man, so this issue will never effect me and I'm free to not wear a shirt if I choose, but damn it I can't stand double standards. I want shit like this to end, and for women to be able to decide for themselves how they want go to the beach, and if that's without a bikini top then so fucking be it, right?

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FictoVore.   
FictoVore.

I think that either men should have to keep their chests completely covered the way women do, OR both genders should be allowed to go equally naked on top. Last time I went to town, there were this big billboards outside a clothing store displaying images of these big muscly men who were naked except for underwear (it was an advertisement for the underwear, not a strip club).. This is quite a conservative town regardless, but I know that even in the city, they would never show billboards with topless women in the same way, and I just find that really sexist. Women's breasts actually serve a purpose (to feed babies) whereas a male model with a huge muscly chest has generally specifically made it that way for the purposes of being sexually appealing... Yet the breasts that actually have a purpose have to be hidden and shamed (and in some places, like even many beaches, the woman could get arrested for having them out) and the ones that are only there to make the man appear more 'sexually appealing' (to some people anyway) are totally okay? Those double standards are  really annoying and actually, very offensive T_T

 

And don't even get me started on the way women are viewed as disgustingly hairy beasts for not shaving their legs or underarms, yet it's considered totally normal for those exact same men on the billboard to have leg and underarm hair. *grumble*.

 

edit: now I kind of wish someone would put an image of a topless naturally hairy woman up beside the male models on the billboards, haha. Give people a bit of a reality check :P 

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Ace ♠ At ♠ Archery   
Ace ♠ At ♠ Archery

I wouldn't go without a bikini top, but if other people want to I don't really care.

 

2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

And don't even get me started on the way women are viewed as disgustingly hairy beasts for not shaving their legs or underarms, yet it's considered totally normal for those exact same men on the billboard to have leg and underarm hair. *grumble*.

I COMPLETELY agree with this though. If it's disgusting for women to have leg and underarm hair then it should be disgusting for men to have it too.

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Groobly   
Groobly
2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

I think that either men should have to keep their chests completely covered the way women do, OR both genders should be allowed to go equally naked on top. Last time I went to town, there were this big billboards outside a clothing store displaying images of these big muscly men who were naked except for underwear (it was an advertisement for the underwear, not a strip club).. This is quite a conservative town regardless, but I know that even in the city, they would never show billboards with topless women in the same way, and I just find that really sexist. Women's breasts actually serve a purpose (to feed babies) whereas a male model with a huge muscly chest has generally specifically made it that way for the purposes of being sexually appealing... Yet the breasts that actually have a purpose have to be hidden and shamed, and the ones that are only there to make the man appear more 'sexually appealing' (to some people anyway) are totally okay? Those double standards are  really annoying T_T

 

And don't even get me started on the way women are viewed as disgustingly hairy beasts for not shaving their legs or underarms, yet it's considered totally normal for those exact same men on the billboard to have leg and underarm hair. *grumble*.

Damn straight. That's a good point about the huge double standard of body builders MAKING their chests attractive and being allowed to show it off, but women's chests simply existing and having an actual functioning purpose, but even in the context of serving the function is discriminated against. I'm definitely bring that up next time someone tries to argue with me over this.

 

Yeah...so many damn double standards. Even the reverse, if a man wants to shave his legs, is looked at weirdly. These are textbook examples of dumb socialized gender roles that make NO SENSE. NONE.

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FictoVore.   
FictoVore.

oh noes, I was trying to read your reply to me and knocked my cake off my desk onto the carpet :c *goes to have a cry* (that will probably teach me for having cake for breakfast, haha)

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Homer   
Homer
2 minutes ago, Ace ♠ At ♠ Archery said:

If it's disgusting for women to have leg and underarm hair then it should be disgusting for men to have it too.

Wouldn't that be a further step back? It shouldn't be seen as disgusting on anyone period.

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Groobly   
Groobly
Just now, FictoVore. said:

oh noes, I was trying to read your reply to me and knocked my cake off my desk onto the carpet :c *goes to have a cry*

NOOOO! That sucks. I'm sorry. :( :cake:

 

3 minutes ago, Ace ♠ At ♠ Archery said:

I wouldn't go without a bikini top, but if other people want to I don't really care.

 

I COMPLETELY agree with this though. If it's disgusting for women to have leg and underarm hair then it should be disgusting for men to have it too.

Same here. I wear a shirt to the pool and beach. It's just my choice as someone who's self conscious. I'm all about people having the choice to do what they want as long as they're not harming anybody.

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Julian of Norwich   
Julian of Norwich

Okay, breastfeeding in public shouldn't be illegal anywhere.

BUT I personnally am very uncomfortable with women showing their breasts and therefore voted no.

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Julian of Norwich   
Julian of Norwich
2 minutes ago, Homer said:

Wouldn't that be a further step back? It shouldn't be seen as disgusting on anyone period.

I don't even get how hair can be disgusting as long as it is washed regularly.

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FictoVore.   
FictoVore.
Just now, Julian of Norwich said:

Okay, breastfeeding in public shouldn't be illegal anywhere.

BUT I personnally am very uncomfortable with women showing their breasts and therefore voted no.

So do you agree then that all men should have to keep their chests covered in public too, as well as in advertising etc?

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FictoVore.   
FictoVore.
Just now, Julian of Norwich said:

I don't even get how hair can be disgusting as long as it is washed regularly.

My cake has hair on it after it fell on the floor, that's going to be gross no matter how well I wash it.. and my cake will be ruined if it gets washed. *looks at cake wondering if I should eat it anyway*

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Julian of Norwich   
Julian of Norwich
5 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

So do you agree then that all men should have to keep their chests covered in public too, as well as in advertising etc?

Nope. I don't.

I would like less nudity in advertising in general, yes.

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Julian of Norwich   
Julian of Norwich
Just now, FictoVore. said:

My cake has hair on it after it fell on the floor, that's going to be gross no matter how well I wash it.. and my cake will be ruined if it gets washed. *looks at cake wondering if I should eat it anyway*

:o how dare you throw your cake onto the floor, cake needs the utmost attention and care!

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Groobly   
Groobly
6 minutes ago, Julian of Norwich said:

Okay, breastfeeding in public shouldn't be illegal anywhere.

BUT I personnally am very uncomfortable with women showing their breasts and therefore voted no.

You're welcome to your opinion. I knew that perspectives like this would be here, and it's why I was so interested in hearing what people had to say. :)

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Groobly   
Groobly
5 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

My cake has hair on it after it fell on the floor, that's going to be gross no matter how well I wash it.. and my cake will be ruined if it gets washed. *looks at cake wondering if I should eat it anyway*

Five second rule. ;)

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Julian of Norwich   
Julian of Norwich
1 minute ago, Groobly said:

You're welcome to your opinion. I knew that perspectives like this would be here, and it's why I was so interested in hearing what people had to say. :)

It's not even really an opinion, it's a feeling. Theoretically I know that it's unfair how women can't go topless. Nevertheless it makes me uncomfortable.

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Laurann   
Laurann

Yeah I totally agree that this should be the same for men and women, but at the same time I don't feel like having my boobs out in public. It's fine if other people do though.

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Julian of Norwich   
Julian of Norwich
1 minute ago, Groobly said:

Five second rule. ;)

Don't you know the penguin rule? You can eat it until a penguin walks past whatever you dropped. Then it isn't save anymore.

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Groobly   
Groobly
10 minutes ago, Julian of Norwich said:

It's not even really an opinion, it's a feeling. Theoretically I know that it's unfair how women can't go topless. Nevertheless it makes me uncomfortable.

 

Don't you know the penguin rule? You can eat it until a penguin walks past whatever you dropped. Then it isn't save anymore.

Yeah, I can't tell you how you should feel. Your perspective is different than the people who were arguing with me on Facebook. The ones who were talking to me were superficially judging it because video that was shared had the women's breasts censored, therefore their stance can't be that strong and they can be dismissed. It didn't make any sense because it was being censored because of the standard they're fighting, but nobody would listen to reason. You have an actual reason because you've been socialized in a society to see women's breasts that way, and that's a conditioning that can be hard to break. However, I think in good time if progress in society keeps happening that perspective will be a thing of the past. That's my hope, at least. I still think you're welcome to feel this way all of that said.

 

Ooh, I like that rule more. :D

 

10 minutes ago, Laurann said:

Yeah I totally agree that this should be the same for men and women, but at the same time I don't feel like having my boobs out in public. It's fine if other people do though.

Yep, I agree. Like I said earlier, despite my strong stance on this issue I choose to wear a shirt at all times in public, including places where it's socially acceptable for men to not have to. I'm just self conscious enough to the point of wanting this for myself. I just want all people to have the option, and I also want them to feel safe while making this decision. Which is also why I want media to stop sexualizing nipples. I feel like these two issues are deeply interwoven.

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Antihero.   
Antihero.

I admit that there is that part of me that thinks:”Urgh hell no! I don’t want to have to see that.”, because I find tits incredibly unaesthetic and unpleasant to look at.
(Hold on a second; don’t throw the stones just yet!)
But there are many things that I don’t want to see or even find gross but that doesn’t mean that there should be laws against them just because I don’t like those things or don’t want to see them.

The same goes for that case! There is no objective or rational reason that would justify allowing a man to be shirtless in public but to deny a woman that right at the same time.
A woman’s tits aren’t less hygienic than a man’s chest and don’t bear any higher risks of transmitting or catching diseases as far as I’m informed, hence the law should not deny them the same right if they want to strip off their shirts so badly. I can just look into another direction at something more pleasant to me. 

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swirl_of_blue   
swirl_of_blue

I think there should be the same standards regardless of gender. Bodies are just bodies, and if anything besides genitals is viewed as sexual it is because society has made it so. Fortunately I live in a country where nudity isn't seen as necessarily sexual (probably because we see each other in sauna all the time), but even here women are expected to keep their chests covered in public. Personally I don't care what people wear (or don't wear. I wouldn't want to go topless mainly because my breasts are way too heavy for me to be comfortable and I don't particularly like the way I look without clothes. Also, it's way too cold here most of the time to be naked, even in the summer.

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Groobly   
Groobly
8 minutes ago, Antihero. said:

I admit that there is that part of me that thinks:”Urgh hell no! I don’t want to have to see that.”, because I find tits incredibly unaesthetic and unpleasant to look at.
(Hold on a second; don’t throw the stones just yet!)
But there are many things that I don’t want to see or even find gross but that doesn’t mean that there should be laws against them just because I don’t like those things or don’t want to see them.

The same goes for that case! There is no objective or rational reason that would justify allowing a man to be shirtless in public but to deny a woman that right at the same time.
A woman’s tits aren’t less hygienic than a man’s chest and don’t bear any higher risks of transmitting or catching diseases as far as I’m informed, hence the law should not deny them the same right if they want to strip off their shirts so badly. I can just look into another direction at something more pleasant to me. 

That's a completely fair perspective. I personally don't really think anything when I see nipples, I just see them as another piece of flesh, but I figured there'd be people here who didn't wanna see them, and I knew some interesting conversations would happen on that basis.

 

I agree with you, and you're right. Though, when breastfeeding things change a bit, but even if it's a little less hygienic I'm more worried about the mother's right to feed her child as she pleases wherever she wants than a little bit of icky breast milk.

 

9 minutes ago, swirl_of_blue said:

I think there should be the same standards regardless of gender. Bodies are just bodies, and if anything besides genitals is viewed as sexual it is because society has made it so. Fortunately I live in a country where nudity isn't seen as necessarily sexual (probably because we see each other in sauna all the time), but even here women are expected to keep their chests covered in public. Personally I don't care what people wear (or don't wear. I wouldn't want to go topless mainly because my breasts are way too heavy for me to be comfortable and I don't particularly like the way I look without clothes. Also, it's way too cold here most of the time to be naked, even in the summer.

Wow, so even in a society where nudity is less taboo this unfair standard still exists? That's interesting. Do you know the reasoning most people have?

 

Yeah, where you live sounds nice. I love cold weather. I can see why you'd feel that way about the cold. Also, I'm with you as far as being naked. That's something for me and me only, at least up until this point in my life, and even then I'm not too interested in seeing it.

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swirl_of_blue   
swirl_of_blue
6 minutes ago, Groobly said:

Wow, so even in a society where nudity is less taboo this unfair standard still exists? That's interesting. Do you know the reasoning most people have?

I think it's the same as everywhere: breasts are still seen as sexual, even though the attitudes aren't nearly as bad as for example in the US. I'm actually not sure if going topless could get someone in legal trouble, I've never looked into what the law actually says and I have never seen anyone topless in public. Going to saunas naked is actually the exception: nudity is all right if you have a proper reason for it, and of course washing oneself is seen as a proper reason. In saunas and showers of public swimming pools you actually HAVE to get naked: washing yourself wearing a bathing suit is not good enough. So while we are not that concerned getting naked in those sort of circumstances, they are considered exceptions. And not everyone is comfortable going into a sauna with opposite sex friends or even relatives. It depends a lot on how a person's parents have raised them and what the culture is among that particular person's friends. I'm used to seeing my bandmates, friends from choir and football teammates naked, and at a field course I even went to sauna with a couple of my professors present in addition to our group of students (though some of my university classmates didn't think that was proper). Some people stop going to sauna with anyone, even close family members, around puberty but I think people like that might be in the minority. So I would say that on average Finns are less concerned about nudity because we are used to seeing it in non-sexual circumstances, but there are still things that "cross the line" in most circumstances and unfortunately women going topless is one of those. Breastfeeding is generally tolerated, however, as it is seen as necessary and detatched from sex (as it should be).

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Planet Ace   
Planet Ace

I feel like either everyone should be allowed to go topless, or no one should be allowed. One or the other, pick one, I really don't have a preference either way as long as the law is consistent for everyone. It's deeply unfair that it isn't the same for everyone. But I think we have a better chance of making it legal for women to go topless than we do of forcing men to conform to the same standards and stop going shirtless whenever they want, so I guess I support freeing the nipple. 

 

I like your point about how ankles were once over sexualized, and now no one thinks twice about seeing them in public, not even the most conservative of homeschooled evangelicals. It shows that we can adapt, that what is considered too sexy for the public is mutable. But that's part of the problem too, I think. A lot of people don't want that to change, they don't want the nipple to become desexualized. Especially not Christians, weirdly. Many of them see the changing standards of modesty as an indication of moral decline, rather than a good thing that we aren't quite so uptight anymore about our natural form. It can only be a good thing if it takes much more these days to tempt someone the sin of lust than the merest glimpse of a pair of ankles or calves, right? But they don't see it that way. I've literally seen evangelicals complaining about how the female body has almost no mystery anymore, like that's a bad thing. They'd much rather keep on objectifying women, and making sure everyone else continues to do so as well, in their own mixed up way. Which is both incredibly sad and incredibly backwards, IMO. 

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Amnesiac   
Amnesiac

Isn't it legal in a few states? 

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Groobly   
Groobly
11 minutes ago, swirl_of_blue said:

I think it's the same as everywhere: breasts are still seen as sexual, even though the attitudes aren't nearly as bad as for example in the US. I'm actually not sure if going topless could get someone in legal trouble, I've never looked into what the law actually says and I have never seen anyone topless in public. Going to saunas naked is actually the exception: nudity is all right if you have a proper reason for it, and of course washing oneself is seen as a proper reason. In saunas and showers of public swimming pools you actually HAVE to get naked: washing yourself wearing a bathing suit is not good enough. So while we are not that concerned getting naked in those sort of circumstances, they are considered exceptions. And not everyone is comfortable going into a sauna with opposite sex friends or even relatives. It depends a lot on how a person's parents have raised them and what the culture is among that particular person's friends. I'm used to seeing my bandmates, friends from choir and football teammates naked, and at a field course I even went to sauna with a couple of my professors present in addition to our group of students (though some of my university classmates didn't think that was proper). Some people stop going to sauna with anyone, even close family members, around puberty but I think people like that might be in the minority. So I would say that on average Finns are less concerned about nudity because we are used to seeing it in non-sexual circumstances, but there are still things that "cross the line" in most circumstances and unfortunately women going topless is one of those. Breastfeeding is generally tolerated, however, as it is seen as necessary and detatched from sex (as it should be).

That's so different culturally than in the United States. Here in the US we're pretty much obsessed with segregating the sexes, to the point that people faint on their couches at the thought of gender neutral bathrooms. Thanks for the perspective!

 

9 minutes ago, Planet Ace said:

I feel like either everyone should be allowed to go topless, or no one should be allowed. One or the other, pick one, I really don't have a preference either way as long as the law is consistent for everyone. It's deeply unfair that it isn't the same for everyone. But I think we have a better chance of making it legal for women to go topless than we do of forcing men to conform to the same standards and stop going shirtless whenever they want, so I guess I support freeing the nipple. 

 

I like your point about how ankles were once over sexualized, and now no one thinks twice about seeing them in public, not even the most conservative of homeschooled evangelicals. It shows that we can adapt, that what is considered too sexy for the public is mutable. But that's part of the problem too, I think. A lot of people don't want that to change, they don't want the nipple to become desexualized. Especially not Christians, weirdly. Many of them see the changing standards of modesty as an indication of moral decline, rather than a good thing that we aren't quite so uptight anymore about our natural form. It can only be a good thing if it takes much more these days to tempt someone the sin of lust than the merest glimpse of a pair of ankles or calves, right? But they don't see it that way. I've literally seen evangelicals complaining about how the female body has almost no mystery anymore, like that's a bad thing. They'd much rather keep on objectifying women, and making sure everyone else continues to do so as well, in their own mixed up way. Which is both incredibly sad and incredibly backwards, IMO. 

There's a lot of truth in what you've said. It really is ironic in the worst way that these prudish Christian conservatives are the ones making these kinds of laws, yet at the same time promote a culture of constant sexualization. Of course, it's not all of them, cause at least there's the ones who are consistently prudish and hate sexualization in our culture, but I live around a lot of rednecks, and I've met the very same kind of person you're talking about. It's frustrating, and I'm not even effected by it. <_<

 

10 minutes ago, Amnesiac said:

Isn't it legal in a few states? 

I Googled it, and found some things talking about it here and here. The second one has an interesting map.

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80hours   
80hours

Honestly, I and I'm pretty sure the majority of people don't really care about this.

 

I don't believe this will advance healthy feminism, nor do I think it's going to be something horrible. Go for it if you want! would be my answer.

 

However:

 

If we're talking about equal rights for men and women, the feminists (these days at least) have to mean it. Men still do the jobs that account for 90% of work-related deaths. They're considered disposable in society. This is nothing compared to a nonexistent wage gap which if it existed, would mean that business owners could just hire women and drive everyone out of business.

 

 

What I've seen from feminists these days is not a cry for equality, but for pure power and superiority.

 

 

 

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80hours   
80hours

I agree that religion should not be used in deciding stuff like this though.

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Groobly   
Groobly
7 minutes ago, 80hours said:

Honestly, I and I'm pretty sure the majority of people don't really care about this.

 

I don't believe this will advance healthy feminism, nor do I think it's going to be something horrible. Go for it if you want! would be my answer.

 

However:

 

If we're talking about equal rights for men and women, the feminists (these days at least) have to mean it. Men still do the jobs that account for 90% of work-related deaths. They're considered disposable in society. This is nothing compared to a nonexistent wage gap which if it existed, would mean that business owners could just hire women and drive everyone out of business.

 

 

What I've seen from feminists these days is not a cry for equality, but for pure power and superiority.

 

 

 

I think you'd be surprised how many people care.

I disagree completely about your views on feminism, and I agree with your views on how men are often viewed in society, however those are off topic so let's not get too much into that. This doesn't even have to be viewed through a feminist lens to realize it's a hypocritical way of viewing the world. Someone pointed out earlier how body builders, who strive to make their pectoral muscles attractive have a free pass on showing off their nipples, but women, who are just born with nipples and breasts and can't do anything about it have to hide them and it's considered sexual if they don't. I thought that was an amazing point and just goes to show how deep this hypocrisy runs. You seem in agreement, though, at least on that, so I guess we don't have much to disagree on in this topic.

I agree with you there too, one hundred percent.

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FictoVore.   
FictoVore.
2 hours ago, Julian of Norwich said:

Nope. I don't.

I would like less nudity in advertising in general, yes.

I'm mainly interested to know what's the difference, for you? a nipple is a nipple, how does the gender change that? Just like, a butt is a butt, regardless on who it's on lol. And I understand men's chests aren't always as jiggly as a woman's, but there are many men who have bigger breasts than many small breasted women (whether those man breasts are made from fat or muscle, lol - more commonly fat). So is it something to do with the shape, or just that the nipple is attached to a woman instead of a man? :o

 

46 minutes ago, 80hours said:

Honestly, I and I'm pretty sure the majority of people don't really care about this.

It's a fact though that in many places, a man can have his shirt off in public and not get arrested, whereas a woman is very likely to get arrested in the same situation and charged with public indecency. It's not about feminism (I'm actually anti most modern feminism) it's about the ridiculousness of social standards when it comes to who is allowed to wear what (and who has to shave where but that's a different topic). And yes, most people have an opinion on this, it's just that the most common opinion is that a woman topless in public is a 'dirty slut' and that it's disgusting etc. If women suddenly started walking around topless, almost everyone would take very serious issue with that. So yeah, a lot of people care about it..  they're just on the opposite side of the fence to those saying that if a man can legally be topless in public, a woman should be allowed to as well. I remember reading about when women would get told to leave the beach if their swimsuits ended just above the knee, as that was considered outrageous public indecency (while men were STILL allowed to go shirtless at the beach, lol). This was before the word 'feminism' existed I think, but enough people started taking issue with the double standards that women were eventually allowed to show more thigh and now, no one thinks twice about seeing a womans legs. It's the exact same situation now, just for boobs instead of legs.

 

2 hours ago, Groobly said:

Five second rule. ;)

I admit that I did end up eating it :P

 

2 hours ago, Laurann said:

Yeah I totally agree that this should be the same for men and women, but at the same time I don't feel like having my boobs out in public. It's fine if other people do though.

I also would never have my boobs out in public, they're only for my special someone ^_^ ..He's not allowed to have his shirt off in public either though haha.

 

 

 

 

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