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Heart

Official New Election Procedures

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Heart

Hello everyone!

 

After some discussion and consultation with the membership (here), the admods have decided to change the election system. The new rules will be:

 

Quote

Moderator and Project Team elections will be done as a vote of confidence (Yes/No/Abstain for each candidate), and the candidate with the highest Yes votes will be elected to the position for which they're running. In the event that there is a tie for Yes votes, the candidate with fewer No votes will win. In the event that the candidates are tied in both Yes votes and No votes, a runoff vote will be held where members will choose between the tied candidates so only one is elected. If no candidate gets more yes votes than no votes, the election will be considered to have no winner, and we will wait two weeks and start the election again, until a winner is found.

Please see the linked thread above for a more detailed explanation and example of how this will work. This will apply to all elections that start after this announcement is made, but will not apply retroactively. The thread detailing election procedure has also been updated.

 

As always, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask them here or PM any admod. We will be keeping an eye on this new system to see how it fares, and we hope it will help with such issues as what to do if someone drops out of the running after voting has started, while keeping to a high standard of democracy.

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Polygon

Sounds delightful. Vote of confidence is a good way for users to give their input to each candidate individually, rather than singular choice. I would have preferred jousting as the tie-breaker, but runoff is good, too...

 

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InquisitivePhilosopher
8 minutes ago, Polygon said:

...I would have preferred jousting as the tie-breaker...

 

:lol: 

 

I seriously don't like voting; I don't know how to choose. I'm fine with whoever wants to be mod and don't want to interfere with or destroy anyone else's dream or desire to be one.

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Snao Cone

I'm very glad we get to see this in action. :)

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Heart
15 minutes ago, Polygon said:

 I would have preferred jousting as the tie-breaker, but runoff is good, too...

 

Only if I get to hug all the horses. Before and after, and at all times. Consider me their necklace or something ;)

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Icelandic WinterDragon

It'll be good to see how this goes.....

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Telperion

Sounds like a good idea to me. :)

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Mioav

Someone has to play devils advicout ,why was this brought in? I understand if you have multiple positions but this is making stuff more complex for no reason. And it's open to being exploited in so many ways.

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Heart
6 minutes ago, Mioav said:

Someone has to play devils advicout ,why was this brought in? I understand if you have multiple positions but this is making stuff more complex for no reason. And it's open to being exploited in so many ways.

Thank you for asking. I'll do my best to explain.

 

The original reason this came up was because we were debating what to do about drop outs. When a candidate drops out after the vote has started, in the past we couldn't do anything more than just pick the one with the next highest votes. But this meant that everyone who voted for the one who dropped out effectively lost their votes; their votes didn't count, even if there was another candidate they would have preferred.

 

For example: Candidate A is leading with 23 votes two days into voting, but their dog dies and they decide they need to back out of the election at the last minute because they don't think they can handle being a mod right now. We all wish them our condolences, sometimes things happen. But those 23 votes now mean nothing; Candidate B who has 10 votes, and Candidate C who has 9 votes, are now running against each other for the remainder of the election. But what if Candidate C was close to Candidate A in their modding philosophy? Then, probably, they would have gotten A's votes if A had dropped out before the vote started.

 

We debated re-starting the vote every time someone drops out, but that does two things: 1) Most people by far vote within the first day or two, and most people don't check back after that, so we'd lose all those votes. And 2) this leaves us open to a lot more trolling than any other system we could think of; candidates could deliberately run, pretending to be serious, then drop out a day before the voting is done specifically just to disrupt the elections. Running this site short-handed, which often happens when someone steps down and we need to run elections to replace them, is a huge drain on the existing remaining staff, and we decided as a team we couldn't afford to delay elections any more than we already do.

 

We debated a few other solutions, but eventually settled on this one, and asked the membership about it. There are some additional advantages to this one: Firstly, it's less vulnerable to vote splitting or strategic voting. Say Candidates 1 and 2 have modding styles that most people agree with and they are only slightly different as candidates. Together, under the old system, they get say 30 votes; 14 to 1 and 16 to 2. But Candidate 3 is a radically different style, that the minority of people agree with; they get 20 votes. Clearly, 30 people prefer the style of 1 and 2 combined, but under the old system, 3 wins. This new system though, would allow members to vote yes to both 1 and 2, and no to 3, or yes to 1 and no to 3 but abstain on 2, for example. So maybe Candidate 1 gets 30 yes votes, and 20 no votes; 2 gets 25 yes votes and 20 no votes and 5 abstains; and Candidate 3 gets 20 yes and 30 no votes. Then the vote splitting from above doesn't happen, and candidate 1 wins.

 

Yes, it's a bit more complicated, but we feel this will give the membership a better way of expressing themselves. We'll see how it goes, but if anyone has any questions about how to vote, then please do ask. It is a little more complicated, but many of us on the team are happy to try to help explain it if necessary.

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Achromatic Kitty

What is a vote of confidence?

 

In Portland at the moment, so I'm limited on how much I can stay on by the free WiFi I encounter...

 

Anyway, I think this sounds good to me so far...

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festiff
1 hour ago, Achromatic Kitty said:

What is a vote of confidence?

It would be how we have done declass team votes, for example

 

 

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Mioav

Ok and a serious question, did no one in the Aven staff see the GREAT BIG FUCKING PROBLEMS that are already obvious in this system,

 

13 hours ago, Heart said:

Thank you for asking. I'll do my best to explain.

 

The original reason this came up was because we were debating what to do about drop outs. When a candidate drops out after the vote has started, in the past we couldn't do anything more than just pick the one with the next highest votes. But this meant that everyone who voted for the one who dropped out effectively lost their votes; their votes didn't count, even if there was another candidate they would have preferred.

 

For example: Candidate A is leading with 23 votes two days into voting, but their dog dies and they decide they need to back out of the election at the last minute because they don't think they can handle being a mod right now. We all wish them our condolences, sometimes things happen. But those 23 votes now mean nothing; Candidate B who has 10 votes, and Candidate C who has 9 votes, are now running against each other for the remainder of the election. But what if Candidate C was close to Candidate A in their modding philosophy? Then, probably, they would have gotten A's votes if A had dropped out before the vote started.

Ok two issues here.1. people vote for people they like, not for moderating style and I highly doubt anyone votes differently. I vote for the person I feel is most capable.. 2ndly if people are dropping out that tells me that they weren't suitable or stable enough, yes you lose those votes, but I'd rather have a good choice voted for by the majority of the voters than the other choice. If a person gets elected that was a second, or even third choice for a majority of people. It works for declass because theres (mostly) always more than one declass position.

13 hours ago, Heart said:

We debated re-starting the vote every time someone drops out, but that does two things: 1) Most people by far vote within the first day or two, and most people don't check back after that, so we'd lose all those votes. And 2) this leaves us open to a lot more trolling than any other system we could think of; candidates could deliberately run, pretending to be serious, then drop out a day before the voting is done specifically just to disrupt the elections. Running this site short-handed, which often happens when someone steps down and we need to run elections to replace them, is a huge drain on the existing remaining staff, and we decided as a team we couldn't afford to delay elections any more than we already do.

 

I agree on your comments on restarting the vote. Elections go on long enough as it is, However at that point just remove them, Why not remove the candidate? Like... well... currently? I get that things happen during elections, I really do. But at that point It should be down to admod discretion, Failing that did no one think about a knockout style Election thing? Theres normally two strong candidates so a final election between them allows everyone to vote freely.

 

Now let me talk about the huge flaws you missed.

 

1. This is going to get trolled to all hell, by giving people an option to vote no to a candidate, Most people will just vote yes for the one candidate. no for the others, at some point you'll end up electing someone with more no votes than yes How has this not come up at all? At any point? Are we seriously saying the huge number of staff didn't even think about this? What happens in the event someone gets more no votes than yes votes and yet ends up having the most yes votes? 

 

2. People now have more than one vote, if a user decides "I'll vote yes to all of them" Thats'effectively a wasted vote. If 23 people do that, thats 23 wasted votes. Effectively you've just invented a way for people to waste votes.

 

2.3. Your asking for candidates to abuse this system. If I decide to run for mod/declass/whatever, I'm going to make sure I not only vote yes for myself, but no for anyone else, if I get ten of my friends to do that. thats at the very least 20 votes. 

4? Did I mention that if a candidate pulls out, thats their votes wasted anyway?

5. Don't you have to decide on all candidates at the same time anyway?

 

Really this is so. so. so flawed. How has no one seen any of these?

 

 

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Snao Cone
34 minutes ago, Mioav said:

What happens in the event someone gets more no votes than yes votes and yet ends up having the most yes votes? 

If no one candidate gets more yes votes than no votes, that's essentially the same as a "none of the above" win in the previous system. Another election will need to be held, just as is the case now when "none of the above" wins.

 

35 minutes ago, Mioav said:

People now have more than one vote, if a user decides "I'll vote yes to all of them" Thats'effectively a wasted vote. If 23 people do that, thats 23 wasted votes. Effectively you've just invented a way for people to waste votes.

One could argue that any vote for someone who's already in the lead is a wasted vote. This way at least people get to show that they're satisfied with the selection of candidates.

 

37 minutes ago, Mioav said:

If I decide to run for mod/declass/whatever, I'm going to make sure I not only vote yes for myself, but no for anyone else, if I get ten of my friends to do that. thats at the very least 20 votes. 

How is this any different from the current system where one can vote for oneself and get friends to vote as such also? If anything it allows the votes by everyone else to counter that. As Heart explained, where there are more than two candidates, people can show they support anyone but a particular candidate. If the candidate seeking to abuse this system isn't favoured by the majority of the members, they can vote "no" for them and "yes" for everyone else running, rather than having to choose a single candidate to vote for and hope it works as intended.

 

42 minutes ago, Mioav said:

Did I mention that if a candidate pulls out, thats their votes wasted anyway?

This problem is avoided with this election method. Everyone who voted "yes" for Candidate Fire has also given votes on the other candidates - Air, Water, and Earth. If I wanted Fire to win but also wouldn't mind Air or Earth, I would give all three of those "yes" votes and Water a "no" vote. If Fire dropped out, my votes for Air and Earth would still count.

 

This was throughly discussed both by staff and with membership in Site Comments recently, and it received positive feedback there. As a member I think it's important to give this election procedure a chance. If any of the obstacles you've outlined here do arise, I think the whole community will put it under close scrutiny and call for whatever further change might be necessary.

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Grinchmer
1 hour ago, Mioav said:

1. people vote for people they like, not for moderating style and I highly doubt anyone votes differently. I vote for the person I feel is most capable..

You're voting in the dark either way - unless this person has held a staff position in the past, that is. Nobody knows how someone is going to handle modding duties unless they see them in action. Source: Personal experience (off AVEN).

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Santa's Little Elf

I honestly don’t understand why elections are seen as popularity contests.I’ve ran both NOTA and VOC and survived both, members really don’t look at how “popular” you are but how involved you are in the community and also what you can offer them as a potential staff member.Maybe it’s just me but i just don’t see the issue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

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Polygon
35 minutes ago, Jayce said:

I honestly don’t understand why elections are seen as popularity contests.I’ve ran both NOTA and VOC and survived both, members really don’t look at how “popular” you are but how involved you are in the community and also what you can offer them as a potential staff member.Maybe it’s just me but i just don’t see the issue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Yeah, although being "popular" is generally a natural consequence of being involved in the community. Maybe people are too hung up on the "popular" thing, but fail to see how that user ended up popular in the first place - by doing cool shit. 

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Kyon.

I say scrap elections and make wannabe admods battle it out in a game of Yu-Gi-Oh. 

 

The winner becomes an admod and the loser gets off easy and is banished to the Shadow Realm. :P

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Polygon
12 minutes ago, spookyon. said:

I say scrap elections and make wannabe admods battle it out in a game of Yu-Gi-Oh. 

 

The winner becomes an admod and the loser gets off easy and is banished to the Shadow Realm. :P

The one who remembers what Pot of Greed does will surely be the victor. 

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Kyon.
2 minutes ago, Skelegon said:

The one who remembers what Pot of Greed does will surely be the victor. 

But what does Pot of Greed do?! :ph34r:

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Yato
11 minutes ago, Skelegon said:

The one who remembers what Pot of Greed does will surely be the victor. 

I draw 2 cards!

 

I would dominate admods with my Yu-gi-oh skills bruh, do you not see my avatar?

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Santa's Little Elf
47 minutes ago, Skelegon said:

Yeah, although being "popular" is generally a natural consequence of being involved in the community. Maybe people are too hung up on the "popular" thing, but fail to see how that user ended up popular in the first place - by doing cool shit. 

Yeah..I guess it’s all about the cool kids doing cool stuff XD Nah, in all seriousness: If you decide to enter an election with the mindset of “Boohoo!! I’m not popular!!!”  Then i can tell you you’re not gonna win the jackpot :P 

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Polygon
19 minutes ago, spookyon. said:

But what does Pot of Greed do?! :ph34r:

What doesn't Pot of Greed do, tbh? It's the miracle card. 

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Sleighcaptain

Everyone, I'm not moderator of this forum, but a polite request here, can we keep an important debate on topic, please :cake::cake:

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Yato
6 minutes ago, Skelegon said:

What doesn't Pot of Greed do, tbh? It's the miracle card. 

There is a reason why it is banned in official gameplay. 

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Polygon
5 hours ago, Mioav said:

Ok two issues here.1. people vote for people they like, not for moderating style and I highly doubt anyone votes differently. I vote for the person I feel is most capable..

Isn't it a little presumptuous to assume that you alone do the "right" thing, while everyone else is accused of playing the favorites? How could you know what's going through the minds of the people voting? And also, it should be clear why the users that people like tend to simultaneously be judged as being capable of the job. One might argue that a less likable person should be voted for if "they are more capable of the job", but a big part of "the job" is being likable. Effective moderators are respected and liked because things go most smoothly when respectable and likable people are the ones you have to deal with when someone makes an oopsie and ends up with a nudge/warning. 

 

 

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Snao Cone

I think ultimately we will learn a lot from putting this method in action. Until we've had a few elections like this, we don't have much evidence to go by for evaluating the effectiveness of this procedure. I'm looking forward to testing it out.

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festiff
31 minutes ago, Snaocula said:

I think ultimately we will learn a lot from putting this method in action. Until we've had a few elections like this, we don't have much evidence to go by for evaluating the effectiveness of this procedure. I'm looking forward to testing it out.

^this

 

if this new system doesn't work out well, we can review it and revert to the previous system. we'll give it a chance, see how it works and if not, we can change it.

 

 

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Cimmerian
7 hours ago, Mioav said:

Ok and a serious question, did no one in the Aven staff see the GREAT BIG FUCKING PROBLEMS that are already obvious in this system,

 

Ok two issues here. 1. people vote for people they like, not for moderating style and I highly doubt anyone votes differently. I vote for the person I feel is most capable.. 2ndly if people are dropping out that tells me that they weren't suitable or stable enough, yes you lose those votes, but I'd rather have a good choice voted for by the majority of the voters than the other choice. If a person gets elected that was a second, or even third choice for a majority of people. It works for declass because theres (mostly) always more than one declass position.

 

2. People now have more than one vote, if a user decides "I'll vote yes to all of them" Thats'effectively a wasted vote. If 23 people do that, thats 23 wasted votes. Effectively you've just invented a way for people to waste votes.

People may always vote for people they like (having a Moderator you hate is kind of counter-productive, isn't it?), but I don't think that means it's a popularity contest; I know I'm not the only person who has voted against one of their friends in an election before. But quite a few voters do look at qualifications and temperament at the least, and I think that shows in the elections from the last several years. We haven't had a lot of previous mods re-run for green Mod positions lately, but I know when previous Mods run for election their past moderating style is a huge factor for me.

 

I can understand having reservations about this system. I certainly do too, but I think it does address a couple election concerns the site has had recently (in particular, the "lost" vote in drop out situations, and time delays plus stress on existing staff when there are positions to fill) and that it's worth giving it a chance to see how it works.

 

Your second point is actually what I am most wary of with this system. I think one of the most important aspects to this system will be that people need to be very conscious that anyone they vote "yes" for could easily become a Moderator under this system, so being nice and going through and hitting "yes" to every candidate without thinking it through just because you don't "mind" them could be a problem, because then it will depend on if someone drops out, or else will rely on who had the fewest no votes (in the case of tied "yes" votes). If this isn't how it is used and people do the "yes" to one candidate and "no" to the others than it doesn't have much of a different effect than the previous election system did (unless this manages to get the runner-up candidate to have more No votes than Yes and the lead candidate drops out, that is).

 

Ideally, I hope we will still see one more strongly supported "yes" candidate in most elections. With rarer elections with several very strong candidates (like some we've held recently where the vote stays very close) where we might see the ability to select multiple candidates as "yes" used.

 

2 hours ago, Jayce said:

Yeah..I guess it’s all about the cool kids doing cool stuff XD Nah, in all seriousness: If you decide to enter an election with the mindset of “Boohoo!! I’m not popular!!!”  Then i can tell you you’re not gonna win the jackpot :P 

I do agree with that, in the way that I think the attitude you show is more important than whether or not you feel (or are) popular. I've seen a lot of people run that might not be popular in the sense I remember from years ago, but they might be known around the forum they're running from (i.e. they have a presence there) so regulars have an idea of the person's temperament and their familiarity with the forum. 

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Yato

Anyone who says its a popularity contest has obviously never met me. :P 

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Achromatic Kitty
7 hours ago, spookyon. said:

I say scrap elections and make wannabe admods battle it out in a game of Yu-Gi-Oh. 

 

The winner becomes an admod and the loser gets off easy and is banished to the Shadow Realm. :P

 

Beat my Zombie Dragon Lords Deck and we'll see if I go to the Shadow Realm LOL. ;)

 

6 hours ago, Skelegon said:

The one who remembers what Pot of Greed does will surely be the victor. 

Pot of Avarice's better FYI... http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Pot_of_Avarice

 

Does what Pot of Greed does but better. ;)

 

Sorry... Anywhere I see a Yu-Gi-Oh! talk gets me saying what cards are better or my deck I play. Anyway, back to what y'all were doing.

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