On still being a virgin

[Forest Spirit]

Just wanted to share this video about "still being a virgin", how our current society views that and sexual liberation in general. I think it's an important topic, not just for aces. Only yesterday a friend of mine told be how, during their (sort of) work trip last weekend, they basically made fun of a 40+ female coworker due to still being a virgin... I think if people could just stop shaming others for not having sex or having "too much" sex or whatever a lot of people could live a happier life!

 

 

[Visenya]

22 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Only yesterday a friend of mine told be how, during their (sort of) work trip last weekend, they basically made fun of a 40+ female coworker due to still being a virgin

I haven't watched the video yet, but I just wanted to say that I wish I could print the quote above, and show it to those people who still insist that women are praised for being virgins, as if we still lived in the 1920s. And the "funny" part is that most people who say that complain about slut-shaming and are willing to fight against it, but don't ever expect them to stand up against prude-shaming!

This is why I have trust issues...

 

On the bright side, though, I'm really glad that Aven exists, because, as a "prudish" sexual, it's the only place I was able to find some acceptance and understanding.

[Ruru+Saphhy=Garnet]

8 minutes ago, Visenya said:

I haven't watched the video yet, but I just wanted to say that I wish I could print the quote above, and show it to those people who still insist that women are praised for being virgins, as if we still lived in the 1920s. And the "funny" part is that most people who say that complain about slut-shaming and are willing to fight against it, but don't ever expect them to stand up against prude-shaming!

This is why I have trust issues...

Yeah, so many people say women are still praised for being virgins, but I see women being constantly belittled for being virgins (or celibate) on or off media.

That is "funny" that most folks who complain about slut shaming and wants to fight against it, never stand up against virgin shaming and actually virgin/celibacy shame others themselves! It's wrong. If people just respected other folk's choices, people would be a lot happier,indeed. Visenya, I'm glad you found Aven.

I enjoyed the video, Quasar.w.  Thanks for posting it.

[Ennis]

I thought about posting this here, too! Thanks @Quasar.w.

[Forest Spirit]

43 minutes ago, Visenya said:

I haven't watched the video yet, but I just wanted to say that I wish I could print the quote above, and show it to those people who still insist that women are praised for being virgins, as if we still lived in the 1920s. And the "funny" part is that most people who say that complain about slut-shaming and are willing to fight against it, but don't ever expect them to stand up against prude-shaming!

This is why I have trust issues...

 

On the bright side, though, I'm really glad that Aven exists, because, as a "prudish" sexual, it's the only place I was able to find some acceptance and understanding.

I've definitely NEVER been praised for still being a virgin (I'm female btw), directly or indirectly. Same friend sometimes jokingly calls me virgin mary, we're close enough that I know he doesn't mean it in a negative way but I think it does show how apparently a lot of people think about this... He also knows I'm ace but I really want to tell him that that's not the only reason why I'm still a virgin and that people, indipendent of their orientation, can have their reasons not to have sex (I'm just sadly not the most comfortable person to talk about stuff like this off AVEN and I can't stand arguing...).

 

And I'm happy that you feel welcome here, that acceptance and understanding is why I love AVEN myself ^sends hugs because I can^

 

18 minutes ago, Julian of Norwich said:

I thought about posting this here, too! Thanks @Quasar.w.

I actually thought about you and was like "this time I'm gonna be faster"

 

[WinterWanderer]

Interesting how this video suggests that being a virgin at 20 is abnormal.

 

Virgin-shaming people is bizarre if you think about it. "Haha, you're 40 years old and haven't meshed your body parts with someone else's." "Haha, you're 40 years old and have almost no chance of getting an STD." "Haha, you're 40 years old and haven't accidentally made a kid in bed."

[everywhere and nowhere]

I've come through that video to another called "What You Need to Know if You're Still a Virgin" and it only made me angry. OK, it's about self-esteem, that's something good, but the words "You will lose your virginity"...

No, I won't. And I wish they were fucking more respectful to people who don't have sex by choice. They are subjected to sociocultural pressure too, just like people for whom virginity is a result of circumstances rather than choice.

[Podsnap]

51 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Same friend sometimes jokingly calls me virgin mary

 

A friend of mine who was a lesbian used to call me that including making a loud announcement at the table when we were at a cafe with her girlfriend. That friend has since decided that sexuality is *fluid* and that she's actually straight and she is now married to a guy she doesn't have sex with.

 

I don't care at all anymore. I just don't tell anyone. No one knows what you don't tell them.

[Forest Spirit]

3 minutes ago, podsnap said:

A friend of mine who was a lesbian used to call me that including making a loud announcement at the table when we were at a cafe with her girlfriend. That friend has since decided that sexuality is *fluid* and that she's actually straight and she is now married to a guy she doesn't have sex with.

 

I don't care at all anymore. I just don't tell anyone. No one knows what you don't tell them.

Fun fact I've never told him that I've never had sex, he simply assumed that after I told him that I'm ace. Which, again, brings me to the topic of wanting people to understand that there are several reasons why someone is still a virgin, and that you simply shouldn't shame anyone for what they do and what not.

And I'm sorry to hear that about your friend, as far as I understand it you weren't happy about her comment ^hugs^

[Galactic Turtle]

Oddly enough is that I never got the memo that being a virgin was a bad thing. In high school I assumed people were making up their sexual experiences just to somehow "sound cool." Kind of like people think smoking a cigarette makes them "look cool." Of course then in college the questions turned from "have you done it" to "who have you done it with?" Then all of a sudden everyone else thinks I'm the one making stuff up! Funny how things change.

[Plectrophenax]

Hm.

I must say that I take some issue with the way the first half of the video is framed. Sexual liberation is not a bad thing, and it certainly isn't the cause for the problems described. Otherwise, every movement for more autonomy and more freedom would necessarily result in injustice regarding those who cannot 'meet the standards' of this newly-established openness - and, to me at least, that's an unrelated concern that shouldn't tarnish the validity of said movement in the slightest. It's likely not what the video intended to do, but it nonetheless struck me as something easily inferred from it - because 'it is now shameful to admit not to have sex' does simply not follow from "people should feel wholly at ease around the prospect of making love frequently and diversely". It's not saying that people must engage in sex, but that they shouldn't feel ashamed or morally uneasiy if and when they do.

 

What is the issue is that people are seemingly awfully prone to set up norms and expectations and go on to coerce/pressure/mock/deride/look down upon those who don't meet them for one reason or another. I don't mean to come across as dismissive of the point the video is trying to make - that the sexual liberation has, in some ways for some people, resulted in norms and thus pressures of its own - but it would have been just as valid to simply say that there can be norms and pressures related to sex, and that they are just as needless and potentially hurtful when directed at voluntary sexual inactivity as they are when directed at consensual sexual activity. It's not a difficult concept.

 

 

3 hours ago, Quasar.w said:

Just wanted to share this video about "still being a virgin", how our current society views that and sexual liberation in general. I think it's an important topic, not just for aces. Only yesterday a friend of mine told be how, during their (sort of) work trip last weekend, they basically made fun of a 40+ female coworker due to still being a virgin... I think if people could just stop shaming others for not having sex or having "too much" sex or whatever a lot of people could live a happier life!

Firstly, shame on those people for being assholes.

Secondly, I'm curious as to the nature of the riducule and the motivation behind it. I have been fortunate enough to have never been subject of serious ridicule by the few people who knew or reasonably surmised I am a virgin, but I have been told that one of the reasons this might be is because I seem completely at ease with being such, so there's little to be gained by mockery. It's possible that what people are attacking when making fun of older virgins is a form of percieved 'weakness' when they take their targets to be virgins through no fault or desire of their own, rather than making fun of the absence of sexual activity itself.

Not that this would make their behaviour better in any way, of course, I'm just wondering what the target of the mockery really is.

 

 

3 hours ago, Visenya said:

On the bright side, though, I'm really glad that Aven exists, because, as a "prudish" sexual, it's the only place I was able to find some acceptance and understanding.

It's always nice to see how AVEN can provide a welcoming and supporting place for sexuals as well

[Antihero.]

I honestly don’t get the fuss about virginity at all. Never have. 
Why would I care if someone had or hadn’t had sex in their life? And what does it matter how much or how less sex someone has? I don’t get why it is important or even remotely interesting for others to know and even something they would judge other people by.
Don’t they have any hobbies or interests at all that they need to sink as low as to gossip about other people’s sex lives or lack thereof?

 

[Homer]

This is odd.

 

True liberation would bring freedom (real freedom, not the George W. kind of freedom). Freedom contains the right to not do something, even if it might be uncommon. Not having to do something is the epitome of freedom. As long as people are shamed for exercising their right to not do something, especially since there is absolutely no downside to it, there is no true freedom.

[Forest Spirit]

1 hour ago, Plectrophenax said:

Secondly, I'm curious as to the nature of the riducule and the motivation behind it. I have been fortunate enough to have never been subject of serious ridicule by the few people who knew or reasonably surmised I am a virgin, but I have been told that one of the reasons this might be is because I seem completely at ease with being such, so there's little to be gained by mockery. It's possible that what people are attacking when making fun of older virgins is a form of percieved 'weakness' when they take their targets to be virgins through no fault or desire of their own, rather than making fun of the absence of sexual activity itself.

Not that this would make their behaviour better in any way, of course, I'm just wondering what the target of the mockery really is.

I honestly didn't ask what the exact reason was, as far as I understood it it was also more a "talking behind her back"-thing than actually saying something to her (which doesn't make it better but yeah). I'd have to ask him for a better explanation...

 

1 hour ago, Antihero. said:

I honestly don’t get the fuss about virginity at all. Never have. 
Why would I care if someone had or hadn’t had sex in their life? And what does it matter how much or how less sex someone has? I don’t get why it is important or even remotely interesting for others to know and even something they would judge other people by.
Don’t they have any hobbies or interests at all that they need to sink as low as to gossip about other people’s sex lives or lack thereof?

^^ this! I'll never understand why people care about it, as long as you're not hurting anyone (or yourself) with what you do or don't do I simply don't care!

 

[checkerboard]

I have an online friend who yesterday said "You made me laugh like a virgin schoolgirl" and it really annoyed me, for hours. She said in anime the virgin schoolgirl always have the cutest laugh. Like somehow you are expected to have sex after school and this will change your laugh? I'm in my thirties and this friend i've met online sometimes makes me really feel ashamed. Society has this thought that to me seems like if you're a virgin, you're only half a person? Like, if you haven't had sex you're not a true adult yet or you're missing some important thing you need to be an adult? I only recently joined Aven but it's refreshing to come here and see that I am not alone. But society... often makes it feel that way. And I don't understand why it has to be so tough because of some stupid thing that you should not be assumed to have as a life event. Someone who goes through life, has a decent job, and friends and things, they're not a half person because they haven't had sex. A lot of people seem to think otherwise though. It bothers me. More than it probably should sometimes.

[Strange But Not a Stranger]

I absolutely hate how you're being looked down upon when you're a virgin. I got so tired of having to explain myself that I just don't talk about it anymore. Because when you say that having sex is just not high on your to-do list, they'll look down on you even more. At least that's how I used to experience it.

Like someone else just mentioned, it's like you are only half a person if you haven't "done it". It's so silly. Honestly, I couldn't care less about what another person does or does not do in their private (read: sex) life. It just doesn't matter.

Stop judging. Live and let live.

 

[Plectrophenax]

4 hours ago, Quasar.w said:

I honestly didn't ask what the exact reason was, as far as I understood it it was also more a "talking behind her back"-thing than actually saying something to her (which doesn't make it better but yeah). I'd have to ask him for a better explanation...

Don't worry about it. It's just generally something worth considering when it happens, I'd say, but not something worth deliberately recalling once it is past.

 

 

39 minutes ago, checkerboard said:

I have an online friend who yesterday said "You made me laugh like a virgin schoolgirl" and it really annoyed me, for hours. She said in anime the virgin schoolgirl always have the cutest laugh. Like somehow you are expected to have sex after school and this will change your laugh?

What an odd thing to say. I'm assuming it's supposed to mean 'child-like'? Innocent, maybe? "Back when your mind and body haven't fully matured yet"? Put that way, it's quite unsettling to think your laugh would lose some of its charm once you 'become' sexual.

 

39 minutes ago, checkerboard said:

I'm in my thirties and this friend i've met online sometimes makes me really feel ashamed. Society has this thought that to me seems like if you're a virgin, you're only half a person? Like, if you haven't had sex you're not a true adult yet or you're missing some important thing you need to be an adult?

I don't think it's entirely fair to infer that much. People are often so callous about it because, to them, sexuality and sexual activity (if not in action, then certainly in thought) are a given. The word "virgin" is associated with children and young teenagers, everything older is already thought of as unusual unless following some ascetic principle. Not because being a virgin is considered bad or inferior, but because being sexual is considered not just 'normal' but essential to human nature.

 

The thought of not being sexual to at least some extent is, to a fair number of people, like discovering that some humans simply don't eat or drink. It's not something many even begin to consider, and it may come as more than just a little surprise to them once they hear of it, provided they even take the notion seriously.

 

Which is why the "Visibility and Education" parts of AVEN's mission statement are so vital. Because I really don't think that most of these sort of experiences are born out of some deliberate disregard for asexuals or some demonisation of virginity, but flat-out ignorance that there are people who are not children who don't care about sex at all.

[Scott1989]

Think I've been very lucky over this kind of thing. A close friend of mine, who knows Iam a virgin ace, once said to me "At least your a virgin but not really trying. That is fine. The losers are those who try to get laid all the time but are still a virgin" which I found very comforting on my friendship with them.

[Forest Spirit]

@checkerboard the term "virgin schoolgirl laugh" already annoys the heck out of me... as if you can only be cute and innocent when you're a virgin!? As if having sex would make me change my personality...

 

13 hours ago, Plectrophenax said:

The thought of not being sexual to at least some extent is, to a fair number of people, like discovering that some humans simply don't eat or drink. It's not something many even begin to consider, and it may come as more than just a little surprise to them once they hear of it, provided they even take the notion seriously.

 

Which is why the "Visibility and Education" parts of AVEN's mission statement are so vital. Because I really don't think that most of these sort of experiences are born out of some deliberate disregard for asexuals or some demonisation of virginity, but flat-out ignorance that there are people who are not children who don't care about sex at all.

I agree on that. The analogy to "discovering that some humans simply don't eat or drink" kind of nails it. The thing is I can understand them, when you grow up with something being "the norm" and "the thing everyone does or atleast wants to do" then surely it'll be odd at first to discover that some people genuinely don't care about it or don't care as much as society tells you they should (also applying to non-aces). That's why I try to spread more awareness, I'm not out in public so it's just little things, but I hope that I can atleast make the people close to me understand!

[checkerboard]

On 9/27/2017 at 9:37 PM, Plectrophenax said:

I'm assuming it's supposed to mean 'child-like'? Innocent, maybe? "Back when your mind and body haven't fully matured yet"? Put that way, it's quite unsettling to think your laugh would lose some of its charm once you 'become' sexual.

I think that's exactly what's meant by it. But part of me can't help thinking that I would be thought of as "innocent" and "child-like" or "not matured yet", like this half person idea. Or not a real adult. The idea that society assumes you need sex to be whole/adult/mature gets to me. But i'm an overthinker.

 

[butterflydreams]

On 9/27/2017 at 7:31 AM, Fioryn said:

Interesting how this video suggests that being a virgin at 20 is abnormal

Statistically it is. I believe the median age of first partnered sexual contact is 17-19. The standard deviation I think is 1-2 years. So statistically, if you’re older than say 25, it is technically abnormal.

 

However, that doesn’t make it bad, and shaming someone for not having sex is one of my biggest annoyances. I won’t ever associate with someone who does that. It’s disgusting and unfair.

[JacketsOn]

I'm very lucky to have friends who, upon finding out the (non-)secret of my virginity, inevitably react with a resounding "oh, ok", and resume chewing their food. Note that I'm not out to anybody right now (myself included)

[checkerboard]

On 9/28/2017 at 11:26 AM, Quasar.w said:

The thought of not being sexual to at least some extent is, to a fair number of people, like discovering that some humans simply don't eat or drink. It's not something many even begin to consider, and it may come as more than just a little surprise to them once they hear of it, provided they even take the notion seriously.

This was very interesting to me, i'd never thought of it like that.

 

The same friend who mentioned the "virgin schoolgirl" thing told me I was adorable the other day. I asked why and this was the reply:

"What makes a person adorable? I don’t know, I’ve met few adorable people. In your case I think it’s your shyness. I also think your lack of…well…experience combines with that shyness and makes you even more adorable."

 

That irritated me. I am a shy person, but only to strangers and I don't see why this person keeps mentioning it because I talk to them daily online and tell them a lot of things, so to me there is no shyness there. But that's not the part that bothers me. It's this thought that a lack of experience makes someone adorable?

 

It's once again like this "virgin schoolgirl" thing. It takes me back to my twenties when I realised I didn't want to have sex, and went through years of thinking and feeling down about myself because I couldn't figure things out and that's when I first heard about asexuality and thought "well, that sounds like me". And I was okay with that, i've not thought about it much since my twenties and i've been happy. Now this person is dredging all those thoughts up again and once more making me feel like some sort of half-adult who will forever be thought of as childlike, schoolgirlish, innocent, and adorable because I haven't had sex? Which when you think about it doesn't make a lot of sense. It sounds like some people think of sex as some kind of transformation you need to have to be an adult.

 

But here I am, now in my thirties going through this thought process again feeling like I am somehow never going to be whole or a proper adult in societies eyes. Looking at all the different types of asexuality trying to discover my exact term, when really I think "asexual" is enough for me to know, without having to categorise myself further. I'm not bothered with dating, I don't fancy having sex, I'm happy to be alone and I don't think I need an "other half" to feel whole.

 

I just felt like venting that incase other people feel the same in these situations, or to see how other people manage these thoughts when society/individuals treat them somehow like an innocent young child when they're far from school age.

[roland.o]

20 hours ago, checkerboard said:

It sounds like some people think of sex as some kind of transformation you need to have to be an adult.

Quoting Buffy: "It's a rite of passage thing." Not exactly needed to be adult, but it's unusual to meet an adult who hasn't performed it. Buffy said that to Angel when she invited him to her prom ball - something he couldn't relate to.

 

While it might be annoying to you, I find it great that your friend is so open to you. Even if you're not shy towards her anymore, you probably were in the beginning, and she might also notice how you interact with others.

 

Nobody is an expert in everything. Your friend might not ask you for relationship advice, fine. But I'm sure there are other areas where you wouldn't ask your friend for advice, right? We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Friendship is about accepting both, I think.

[checkerboard]

I guess I just don't understand how a lack of experience could be "adorable". That makes me feel like i'm being made fun of, or being made to feel childish or something. Maybe i'm misreading it, and jumping to conclusions, or I get too defensive and bothered about these things. I'm not sure.

[roland.o]

44 minutes ago, checkerboard said:

I just don't understand how a lack of experience could be "adorable".

Maybe it helps to think of it as "pristine"? Like people who leave their house open, because they have no experience with burglars. Or people who think that Martial Arts are pointless and all conflicts can be resolved through discussion, because they never experienced an assault. Some experiences leave you broken and scarred and thinking the worst of fellow humans. I've heard that dirty break-ups and divorces rank amongst them.

 

Ah... no, that sounds too negative. Not sure where that's coming from right now. I'll post it anyway, just in case.

[Forest Spirit]

1 hour ago, roland.o said:

Maybe it helps to think of it as "pristine"? Like people who leave their house open, because they have no experience with burglars. Or people who think that Martial Arts are pointless and all conflicts can be resolved through discussion, because they never experienced an assault. Some experiences leave you broken and scarred and thinking the worst of fellow humans. I've heard that dirty break-ups and divorces rank amongst them.

 

Ah... no, that sounds too negative. Not sure where that's coming from right now. I'll post it anyway, just in case.

I get that experiences "change" you in a way, I mean that's life: you make new experiences, you learn new things, your thoughts on stuff change,... but I just don't get why having sex would change you so dramatically so that you're a whole other person afterwards (atleast that's what such comments sound like). And I do have a female homosexual friend who has a partner since years and with 30 (!) is "still" one of the most adorable people I know. Idk maybe such comments just trigger me too much, I just don't understand this whole thing of sex = mature =/= innocent/adorable or whatever.

(Little rant there sorry)

[checkerboard]

1 hour ago, Quasar.w said:

I get that experiences "change" you in a way, I mean that's life: you make new experiences, you learn new things, your thoughts on stuff change,... but I just don't get why having sex would change you so dramatically so that you're a whole other person afterwards (atleast that's what such comments sound like). And I do have a female homosexual friend who has a partner since years and with 30 (!) is "still" one of the most adorable people I know. Idk maybe such comments just trigger me too much, I just don't understand this whole thing of sex = mature =/= innocent/adorable or whatever.

(Little rant there sorry)

Same.

[Plectrophenax]

1 hour ago, Quasar.w said:

I get that experiences "change" you in a way, I mean that's life: you make new experiences, you learn new things, your thoughts on stuff change,... but I just don't get why having sex would change you so dramatically so that you're a whole other person afterwards (atleast that's what such comments sound like).

As mentioned above, I don't think it's just the act of having sex (and losing one's virginity). It is strongly implied that the person in question is sexual, and it makes perfect sense to consider this a first step into a previously unknown yet very important aspect of life (even for sexuals who aren't sex-obsessed).

 

And I really don't want to spread misinformation regarding sexuals, so please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but from what I could see 'maturing' into being sexual does change you. The act of losing one's virginity is the event that marks it most, symbolically speaking, but I would assume that it's the blossoming of a 'new' desire and world of experiences/feelings/relations that makes people talk about losing virginity in the tone that they do. Looking back to their pre-pubescent self might very well strike a sexual as though they were looking at a completely different person, even if the only real difference were the lack of sexual maturity. At least I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case for some.

 

So the association of virginity with 'childlike innocence', as it were, is somewhat understandable and you should try not to take it as infantilising. What would make me much more annoyed is if they asserted that you will most certainly definitely lose your virginity eventually, or if they insinuated that, behind your 'innocent' veneer, you are actually as sexual and sexually deviant as the rest of them.

[Forest Spirit]

1 hour ago, Plectrophenax said:

As mentioned above, I don't think it's just the act of having sex (and losing one's virginity). It is strongly implied that the person in question is sexual, and it makes perfect sense to consider this a first step into a previously unknown yet very important aspect of life (even for sexuals who aren't sex-obsessed).

What you say makes sense, maybe the thing is that I don't understand why having sex has to be that first step. I mean... it's the most obvious thing but Idk... It's just hard to emphatize with something I've never experienced/had interest in (no matter how many comparisons I come up with I still fail at this every time).

But I'm going to try wrapping my mind around this (again)...