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Asexuals... explain attraction and desire to a sexual person...


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Because I've been on this board getting on for a couple of years, read and taken part in loads of discussions/arguments about attraction and desire, and I still have no clue what you're talking about. No version of those concepts, particularly when they're contrasted with each other chimes with how I experience sexuality at all.

 

However, many, many asexuals seem to know what they are. So over to you.

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I have said this before, and I say it again. If someone is asexual, they cannot know on their own what those terms are, and that's why there's the need for sexuals to help us figure out that.

If I know some things, it is merely because I have read Pan's and Telecaster's opinion on that matter. I did not know beforehand that I lacked desire and attraction until I was told by someone else. Then it ocurred to me that I'd may fall somewhere under the asexual side of the spectrum.

But again, we can't define or describe something we don't experience; we can just learn from people who knows and have their point of view regarding this matter. That is how I have been able to figure out little by little what I am.

What I do know, of course, is that attraction and desire are linked and there's a blurry line between the two.

 

My grain of salt here :)

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Hi there. You seem to have been here a while but have no information on your profile. I do not have time to read all your posts although I am sure there are lots of considered discussions.  As someone who is not asexual, I wonder why you are still here, still seeking answers. I am just curious, too. Is there someone close to you that you are trying to understand?

 

As for your question. I know who I am but I only recently started looking into how I fit in the asexual spectrum. It is not a separate quest, it is all the same about learning who one is as life happens.

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Caphyra

 

My wife is pretty much asexual, so initially it was about finding out more. Then I just got interested, and kind of morbidly fascinated by the way people who have no idea about sex were busy explaining it to each other. 

 

The question is genuine though. 

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Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Caphyra

 

My wife is pretty much asexual, so initially it was about finding out more. Then I just got interested, and kind of morbidly fascinated by the way people who have no idea about sex were busy explaining it to each other. 

 

The question is genuine though. 

Thanks, I did not doubt it was genuine, it is just difficult to navigate all the information...and as I said there is nothing on your profile to help guide. 

 

I am not in a position to provide insight to full asexuality. I am somewhere on the sliding scale. What I know is that I keep changing but ultimately, now that I am reading up in these forums, my existence is best explained by the fact that sex does not drive much of my life in any way. I can think of about 10 times, in 50 years, where I had overwhelming desire for people, what is either called an obsession or squish in these forums. But when the sex happened, in these cases, it was either bad or had disastrous consequences or implications (abortions, married people, gay and later found out HIV+). Then I "allowed" myself to have a relationship, and in both cases it was good for a while, I was in love and felt sexual, and then it was just gone, both the desire and the love. And each time I felt relief to have my life back without having to deal with sex with another person. I feel most comfortable with close friends but I do not have the intimacy that some describe here that is somewhere between a sexual relationship and more than a friend. Thinking about my life, I have expended time and energy into career and extracurricular activities instead of having a sexual relationship. I fulfil my needs quietly and alone.

 

Does that give you another perspective? Thanks for answering my initial question.  

 

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idgaf but I generally think of attraction as "to draw attention" "something which draws attention" or "to feel one's attention drawn to a thing" the latter being the most recent in usage...

 

i've no f'ing clue what "desire" means but as far as I understand it, it's more than just a want, but wanting. sometimes a craving.

 

 

not that I've dared to touch on "Sexual attraction" or "Sexual desire" with this post. that's a can of worms

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I'm in my 20s. I've felt what was perhaps a sensual attraction in my fantasies and I used to have some curiosity towards sex (although comparing it to what I hear and see from sexuals both online and in real life, my curiosity seems to have been somewhat different). I could get slightly aroused from the thought that something like sex exists. I say sex, but it was my idea of what sex was. 

The reason why I am so sure I don't have a desire to have sex with anyone (ultimately it's more of an intuition thing, though) is because when something similar to it is happening, taking it futher feels like a foreign thing. The touches and vibes my brain is registering feel wrong. You could say I feel that there is no potential sexual chemistry between me and that person and in my case that's with all the ''kinds'' people I ever met. In that way, to me, all people feel like animals to a non-zoophile - as in species, living beings, objects that aren't meant to be doing something sexual with me.  

I talked in a roundabout way, please tell me if I didn't answer your question. 

One thing to add is that I feel my comprehension of it isn't universal at all, so it isn't a good explanation. 

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Does one have to give an earnest answer in this thread, or can one be an ironic shitposter? Asking for a friend.

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For me attraction is what pulls you to a person - could be personality, trust, looks, or just a "eh, they don't seem like a murderer"  ... whatever makes you interested in them.

 

Desire is an internal want for something. As in, I might go see a comedy with someone cause I want to spend time with them, but I'm not desiring the movie - I'm desiring time with the person (I hate comedies :P ) . And I might desire cake, but due to a diet not want it. 

 

To break it down into simplest terms. 

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Diamond Ace of Hearts

I mean, the obvious answer we haven't got a damn clue how to explain it. I'm still trying to work it out because no explanation I ever read actually tells you how they feel so I can't really tell if I've felt them and to be able to explain a feeling you have to first know you have felt it, no?

 

It's no surprise that sexuals and asexuals have different concepts of these things; you feel them, we have to infer what you feel from what we experience of how you behave. And you telling us how it feels doesn't bridge that epistemic distance; it's just another behaviour, really - more explicit, more useful, but ultimately not enough to get us all the way to understanding each other. Equally though, us telling you what we've inferred doesn't really help you fully understand our inferrences because they rely on subjective qualia just as much as your explanations do.

 

If I can't see the colour red, how the hell could I understand the feeling of seeing red, as explained by someone who can? And how could they - as someone who has never had to conceptualise their own innate ability to see red - possibly understand my concept of what it might feel like for me to be able to do so? I believe the lack of understanding in both directions is natural.

 

I also think you could possibly get another sexual person to give their take and relate to that just as little as you do to the prevailing understandings here. To go back to my colour analogy, that could be similar to the whole "is my red the same as your red?" thing.

 

Sorry, that got rambly and too metaphorical. I'd try and edit into making sense but I really can't be bothered.

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RoseGoesToYale

Hmm... I can really only describe as an approximation, usually within the context of other attractions. It also depends on whether the person considers aesthetic, emotional, sensual, romantic, and sexual attractions as intermingled or separate. If they're together, I might say it feels kind of like sensual attraction, but I know it's way way different and has some nuances that I don't get. The only other thing I can think of is the magnet metaphor. Magnets are meant to stick to each other, so if you put them close to each other and there aren't any barriers, they'll stick to each other. You can still put a magnet close to a non-ferrous metal, even put them next to each other, but they won't stick. And a magnetic field is an electric current... and I've heard sexuals describe it as a "spark"... maybe you become electrified? Just kidding, that would be terrifying. Yeah, other than that, I don't know.

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Galactic Turtle

I always took it to mean you're physically drawn to someone. I know people throw around sensual attraction a lot so I guess that's part of it too. I guess sensual would be the general want to share your physicality with someone else then it turns sexual when that physicality is aimed towards erotic stimulation.

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To be honest, I'm still confused by what it means to have attraction and desire to another person. I keep hoping someone can explain it clearly enough that I finally get it, but the closest have been you, Telecaster, and Fictovore.

 

 

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I think an asexual should have *some* idea as to what it is so they know what exactly they don't experience...

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I guess what confuses me most is seeing asexuals constantly debating it and theorizing about it and saying 'well we can't really understand but I think it's this or that' (and I myself was part of those exact debates back when I thought I was ace, though my opinions have not changed much! I'm just on the other side of the fence now) BUT we have had many notable vocal sexuals here over the years, a few from the top of my head are Geo (who first introduced me to the concept that it's the desire to bang that comes first.. because without that then 'who' you want to bang is irrelevant. You don't want to bang anyone if you have no desire to bang, haha), Skullery Maid (who made it very clear that some sexuals can just love sex for the sake of sex sometimes without even caring who the heck they have it with as long as that person is willing) and Tele who started getting vocal here around the time I started thinking 'er, maybe I'm grey?' then I realized that while I wouldn't be compatible with most sexuals in a relationship, I am actually still sexual. Because I enjoy some sexy things enough to actively choose to do those things in the right situation with the right person, lol.

 

BUT no matter how vocal sexuals here have been about what it's like to be sexual, no matter how many times they try to explain what it's like or how many examples they give.. they are met with a SEA of opposition from asexuals which eventually drives them away (hence why we have no Geo or no Skullery around anymore.) 

 

 

So the asexuals literally won't give up on opposing these sexuals until eventually it gets too much and the sexuals just give up trying. And then all the asexuals turn back to each other and go

 

''so this is what I think it's like''

 

''yes yes, that's probably what it's like''

 

''I mean, I can't know, I'm not sexual, but it must be something like this''

 

.... and so on and so forth. 

 

It's like the NEED to identify as asexual (and define sexuality to reflect that) is so, so important to some people that nothing anyone else says about what it feels like being sexual is allowed into the AVEN reality. And I guess that's cool.. but it's just weird seeing asexuals absolutely REFUSE to listen to sexuals, then sit down and debate amongst each other what it must be like to be sexual, and explain to each other what sexuals feel etc.. and I don't think I've seen any ace here actually explain it in a way that applies to all sexuals unanimously (other than the desire for partnered sex for pleasure, which yes all sexuals experience unanimously to some extent or another for varying reasons).

 

I'd love an explanation from asexuals as to why THEIR idea of how sexuals feel is so much more valid and important than how sexuals explain they as sexuals actually feel.

 

Obviously that's not aimed at all aces, just to clarify!!

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Diamond Ace of Hearts
2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

BUT no matter how vocal sexuals here have been about what it's like to be sexual, no matter how many times they try to explain what it's like or how many examples they give.. they are met with a SEA of opposition from asexuals which that eventually drives them away (hence why we have no Geo or no Skullery around anymore.)

And that is a shame, the site definitely needs more high-quality posters of all orientations but I don't believe it's an intentionally oppositional thing, it's simply a fundamental inability to relate which people can't express properly and which therefore manifests in ways that seem oppositional. In effect it's the same thing and it's not great that it happens but I take issue with the implication that aces are deliberately driving away sexuals (admittedly some may be doing that but the "SEA of opposition" is - I believe - more a swamp of incomprehension).

 

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It's like the NEED to identify as asexual (and define sexuality to reflect that) is so, so important to some people that nothing anyone else says about what it feels like being sexual is allowed into the AVEN reality.

^This I find especially troubling: doubtless some people do cling to their identity against reason and there are some pretty wacky ideas out there but again I dispute whether that is truly the cause of the issue in the majority of cases.

 

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I'd love an explanation from asexuals as to why THEIR idea of how sexuals feel is so much more valid and important than how sexuals explain they as sexuals actually feel.

I don't think anyone's ever said the ace view is more valid. Admittedly I'm not active in the forums as much as I'd like to be so have probably missed a lot of stuff but I seriously doubt anyone wishes to claim that sexual people's explanations of sexuality are invalid or less valid than aces' - as I've said before I find it far more likely that a sexual person's explanation is simply not easily understood by asexuals so of course it gets discounted somewhat. If this was a forum for Russian speakers who wanted to learn Spanish and someone turned up with the best tips for learning Spanish that you've ever heard... but they knew no Russian and instead were speaking Swahili then of course their input wouldn't be taken on board by the majority and that's not out of disdain for that person or their information but simply because what they're offering can't be understood by the people receiving it.

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What Pan says is right. But then it is only fair to wonder if those who know, or claim to know, just want to fit in the label of asexual (which is a side of a broad spectrum). And it is okay to want to claim the label if it serves to identify oneself, just not attack people who are helpful to us as a community, because they can give us new insights of what attraction, desire and sexuality in general really feels like.

It is okay to be asexual, to be grey, demi and anything in between. There's no harm in being sexual either. But we, as a community, should take responsability if we want asexuality (and its subcategories, if it can be called like that) to be taken seriously, and that requires seriousness.

 

*Hides*

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Like I said in some other thread recently...

 

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As far as I'm concerned:

 

Desire: "I want sex"

Attraction: "I want sex with you specifically"

Making it any more complex or specific than that will probably alienate folks.  ("Well that's not how I experience it!")  There honestly isn't THAT much of a contrast between them in my book; it's just that attraction *must* involve a specific other person whereas desire is more general; your focus is more on the activity itself than who it's performed with.  Following the above, I don't subscribe to the "purely attraction" definition of asexuality; sexual people define themselves as desiring sex, therefore I feel that if you desire sex (even in general, without all that "attraction" stuff) that makes you a sexual person.  (Doesn't mean you can't be celibate or abstinent or whatever.)

 

Like Grace said, we have to figure out at least some idea of what it's all about so we know what it is that we don't experience.  It's what all the sexual discussion here (for better or for worse) is for.

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4 hours ago, Snao Çoñé said:

Does one have to give an earnest answer in this thread, or can one be an ironic shitposter? Asking for a friend.

Brilliant.

 

Reminds me of a story a friend of mine who worked in an adult store once told. She said "This guy comes in and asks "I've come in on behalf of a friend, he wants to know what the biggest but plug is you sell"?". She replied "It's this one sir.... We get a lot of "Friends" in here".

 

As for the topic it seems a little like trying to explain to a blind person what the colour purple looks like. 

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As for the topic it seems a little like trying to explain to a blind person what the colour purple looks like. 

I don't think it's really necessary to get into the specifics of what attraction/desire feel like, because that is a subjective thing that's going to be different for everyone anyway.  For someone that's just trying to understand what makes someone sexual, it isn't needed to say anything beyond that they desire sex.  More specific details would just be out of sating curiosity regarding personal/subjective experiences rather than out of trying to teach what is fundamentally different between asexual/sexual.

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5 hours ago, Snao Çoñé said:

Does one have to give an earnest answer in this thread, or can one be an ironic shitposter? Asking for a friend.

:lol: Why not both? 

 

 

I don't understand what the OP is asking for, exactly. Asking asexuals for their experiences, as a way to understand or figure out how their asexual wife feels and what she experiences? If so, we wouldn't be able to help you figure out how she feels because each asexual person experiences different attractions (not all have romantic attractions or a libido; it varies).

 

An explanation between the differences of how sexual people experience sexual attraction and asexuals experience romantic or aromantic attractions/squishes/crushes? There were articles and scientific studies published in scientific journals, also written in a book, "Understanding Asexuality," that were written and conducted by researchers who weren't asexual. (i.e. Anthony Bogaert, Lori Brotto, etc.) In them, they explained the differences between asexual people and sexual people who feel sexual attraction and sexual desire for others.

 

An explanation between the differences between sexual attraction, romantic attraction, sensual attraction, etc., or an explanation of what an asexual person's impression of sexual attraction is?

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Desire is easy really.. I mean just imagine something you want like a fucking amazing car, or an iPhone, or some bloody expensive shoes.. Imagine that.. then multiply it a couple of times, and you have desire. The kind of desire you have when you saved up for a year to buy it.. 

 

 

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It's questions like the OP asked that led me to reading romances I think[1]. Trying to understand. Instead, all I got was more confused[2] and an admitted addiction to romances. :lol:

 

[1] Yes, romance stories are worst way to try and figure this stuff out.

[2] For instance: how total strangers can do it like bunnies, and walk away without making emotional connections (over simplification?). Is this where desire for sex, but not attraction, comes in? Isn't there some attraction involved that leads to desire?

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Does the ability to listen to and grasp the experiences and perspectives of sexual people make me sexual myself? Like, if I identify as asexual, do I have to give up all understanding of human sexuality to fit the stereotypes of the clueless asexual? Or can I still agree with sexual people?

 

I mean, it seems pretty clear that some sexual people cling to this assumption that asexual people are ignorant of sexuality, when it's more due to personality and experience. Call it acesplaining - like mansplaining but instead of a guy explaining to a woman what she's already an expert in, it's an asexual explaining to sexuals what they feel and experience. It's a caricature that removes the agency of a group of people when applied to broadly.

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37 minutes ago, Snao Çoñé said:

Call it acesplaining - like mansplaining but instead of a guy explaining to a woman what she's already an expert in, it's an asexual explaining to sexuals what they feel and experience. It's a caricature that removes the agency of a group of people when applied to broadly.

Yes, and when you try to explain that what they're saying doesn't fit your personal experience of sexuality so well, the "acesplainers" often just dismiss you. If you don't already fit their preconceived notion for how sexual people are, then your experiences don't "count" to them. They don't consider that if there are sexual people saying "it's not like that for me," then maybe there's a problem with their initial assumptions. It's quite frustrating.

 

But, I do think it's possible to get some grasp of how it feels to be sexual as an asexual (and vice versa). Maybe it will never be fully intuitive, but I think at least a basic working understanding is possible. It just requires a willingness to listen and to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

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What I have found to be the most confusing personally is not the aces attempting to understand attraction, rather some of the sexuals/gray-sexuals being confused by what they feel.

 

I think Pan is doing a huge service to the community by just explaining how many women experience sexuality (and some men too). Before coming to this community, I was pretty comfortable with the idea that attraction was just a feeling that made a person want to get sexual with someone. Then I show up on AVEN and find some people arguing that if they don't experience a visual attraction to someone, it's not attraction and similar arguments.

 

I won't claim to be an expert, but I sure did adore my romance novels as a teen and plenty ended in sexual acts. Not a once did said romance novels have a couple get together purely based on looks. Also, most started with the classic "main character hates eventual romantic partner at the beginning" so visual-based attraction was not the core of the eventual sexual act. It was all emotional.

 

Actually, it was probably thanks to those novels that it took me a while to figure out I was ace :P I mean, I knew visuals never did anything for me, but I never expected them to be the only element in attraction. Love, I thought, was the main ingredient; loving someone's personality, quirks, and mind so much that you want to be that intimate with them. That's what I thought attraction was, though I learned later that there are people who function just on the visual and that's ok too, whatever makes them fulfilled.

 

Honestly, the amount of confusion in this site makes me very disappointed in how we raise kids to understand what they feel. I think a lot of assumptions come from consuming over-sexualitized media which portrays sexuality is such a poor way. It over-simplifies it, which makes it hard to understand the nuances that come with it. But, I suppose, that is a discussion for another thread.

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15 minutes ago, G0D said:

I despise that word with a passion. 

But "person too desperate to show off their knowledge to stop and consider if the person they're talking to is already well familiar with the subject" has too many syllables, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :P

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3 hours ago, fuzzipueo said:

[2] For instance: how total strangers can do it like bunnies, and walk away without making emotional connections (over simplification?). Is this where desire for sex, but not attraction, comes in? Isn't there some attraction involved that leads to desire?

Imagine a regular sexual person a desert island, all by themselves for many years, feeling all sad and dejected for many reasons, but one of those reasons would be that they miss and desire sexual intimacy with other people. They don't just magically stop wanting sex because there is no one around they are attracted to D:

 

And for me (as non-hypothetical example) like, I know I desire certain sexual acts, or at least would enjoy them enough to actively choose to do them with another person. I want to be enjoying them with someone. But without love I have no interest in doing them with anyone. That doesn't stop the desire from being there though just because I have no one to love right now. 

 

I'm sure for SOME people, it's the attraction that drives the desire for sex (I THINK Tar mentioned that it's like that for him, but I'd have to double-check that). But I think in most cases the desire is already there to some extent or another, which is *why* we seek people to have sex with depending on our own unique set of preferences. Like, I desire to have romance and will eventually seek someone to love, and with that I will be able to enjoy sexual intimacy with that person.. But for me it's the love that's the preference and the sexual intimacy and pleasure is just an aspect of that. Love is my 'preference', not random sex. For someone else, they may specifically just want to find hot people to screw (and even though AVEN seems to think that's the default mode for sexuals, a lot of sexuals would actually view that person as 'shallow'), some might enjoy the feelings and intimacy of sex and also love some fetish play, but have no interest in relationships and care more about shared ideas/similar life experiences/personality etc than looks, so go to furry groups to meet randoms with similar preferences to enjoy sexual intimacy (furry was just a random example). Some (we had a very vocal sexual here who admitted to this) care SO little about appearance but desire sex to such an extent that they'll advertise on somewhere like Craig's List to meet randoms in a motel room for sex. They won't talk to  them at length or see the person  first, just meet at the room and have sex then go their separate ways. That's a very clear case of the desire driving that person and 'attraction' just isn't coming into it in any way. Pretty much the only requirement for that person is ''be willing to fuck me.'' This is one of the things that gets to me most about self-identifying asexuals saying ''I love and desire sex, but I honestly am not drawn to people sexually. I will have sex with people whose personality I like/close, trusted friends/someone I can talk to'' ...They're assuming that literally all sexual people are 'drawn to other's sexually' and that's what drives their desire for sex. But in many (possibly most) cases, it's the other way around: It's the desire for partnered sex that drives someone to seek a partner to have sex with, based on that individual's unique set of preferences that may be as basic as 'that other person is willing' (which is literally no different than what the ace-identifying person is claiming makes them asexual) or as complicated as 'I need to be deeply in love with them and it's the love that I seek, not the sex' and anything and everything in between.

 

But yeah, if you take a sexual person and put them in a world full of butt-ugly people who smell baaad and have shit personalities, and super low IQs, they're not going to stop desiring partnered sexual intimacy on some level just because they aren't attracted in any way to anyone around them. We actually had a thread here years ago where someone asked ''Sexuals: would you rather be celibate for the rest of your life, or have sex with people you are not attracted to?''. Some answered: sex, with people I'm not attracted to hands down, no questions. And a couple asked if love could be a factor, because they don't care about 'attraction' as long as they can love the person. They said without the love, they'd choose celibacy (which would be my answer nowadays). And of course there were other answers with varying degrees of 'just how unattractive are we talking here?' haha. But can you see what I mean? That thread alone clearly illustrates that at least for SOME sexuals, it's the desire that's important. And if that's true even of SOME sexuals, then that disproves all the times anyone on AVEN has said 'sexual people are drawn to other's sexually and that's why they're sexual. They desire sex because of a sexual reaction to other people that draws them to seek sex with that person'.. Sure that's true of some sexuals, but certainly not all of them.

 

What they all have in common though, whether they are someone who is drawn to others sexually which is what makes them want sex, or they want sex in the first place which is why they seek specific partners to have sex with based on their own unique 'criteria' (which is much more common imo) they all desire partnered sexual intimacy to some extent or another under some circumstances. That's the one thing all sexual people have in common when it comes to their unique sexuality.

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3 hours ago, fuzzipueo said:

For instance: how total strangers can do it like bunnies, and walk away without making emotional connections (over simplification?). Is this where desire for sex, but not attraction, comes in? Isn't there some attraction involved that leads to desire?

To answer this question: not necessarily. It's possible for a sexual person to experience an urge to have sex without anyone specific in mind, at which point they might opt to have a casual, no-strings-attached sexual experience with a stranger. They might choose to have sex with someone on the basis of attraction, but they also might not. Some sexuals are willing to have sex with people they aren't attracted to if the urge is strong enough. On the other hand, some sexuals don't find sex satisfying unless there's an established, underlying emotional connection and therefore have no interest in casual sex.

 

There also those who actually do find one night stands to be highly emotional and memorable in their own way. Some people find it exciting when the stars align and they make that kind of spontaneous passionate connection. For those folks, the lack of pressure for the relationship to continue beyond just one night can make it easier to enjoy the experience for what it is. Although I'm not personally interested in one night stands, I can see how that would be appealing to some people.

 

...I started typing this up before Pan replied, so I'm probably repeating her somewhat. In any case, though, here's the thread that Pan is referencing (about choosing between sex or celibacy). It's an interesting read. :)

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