sexual orientation and gender expression

[Jea]

I wasn't sure where to put this, so I compromised by putting it here.

 

I was wondering what you think about the link between sexual orientation and gender expression. I know it's just the cliché of gay men, who are supposed to be effeminate, and lesbians, who are supposed to be less feminine. Technically, I know that there is no link between them, or at least that they are independent, but do y'all think that there is some truth behind the cliché?

 

On this subject I remember a researcher / professor in humanities in my uni who mentioned that there are far more men in sciences and more women in humanities, and that incidentally when there are men in humanities, a big percentage of them are gay. Which is only relevant if you consider that being gay influences your gender in some way. (She didn't mean badly, her point was that there is a separation between hard sciences and humanities that shouldn't exist, she was making a feminist statement, and she is definitely LGBT+ friendly.)

 

Another linked anecdote is that I remember a character in a fanfiction thinking that he 'had never felt more like a man' after seeing a look of desire on the face of the woman he loved, which also implies that sexuality affects gender expression.

 

Note that I'm talking of gender expression, not of gender. All this is very confusing to my asexual mind, because I don't understand sexual attraction at all, let alone orientation. But also I couldn't help noticing the larger percentage of NB people within the ace community, which would also go in the same direction.

 

I know it's a touchy question but I really mean no offence, I'm trying to understand this question a little better.

[Sage Raven Domino]

28 minutes ago, Findus said:

Another linked anecdote is that I remember a character in a fanfiction thinking that he 'had never felt more like a man' after seeing a look of desire on the face of the woman he loved, which also implies that sexuality affects gender expression.

 

Note that I'm talking of gender expression, not of gender. All this is very confusing to my asexual mind, because I don't understand sexual attraction at all, let alone orientation. But also I couldn't help noticing the larger percentage of NB people within the ace community, which would also go in the same direction.

The belief that the extent of a hetero man's masculinity is related to their sex appeal is a cliché too.

 

Aro aces do have fewer obstacles to being NB than (grey-)romantics or (grey-)sexuals do, because aro aces usually don't feel the need to be sexually or romantically attractive to anyone and thus don't have to cater to people who're attracted to one gender only.

[BionicPi]

1 hour ago, Findus said:

But also I couldn't help noticing the larger percentage of NB people within the ace community, which would also go in the same direction.

I questioned my gender ID because of my aro-aceness. It felt the same (e.g. not really feeling things in the sense of... well...). I wonder if part of that prevalence is that it may because ace/aro ppls are more inclined to identify with a lack of something/have more to relate it to.

[banana monkey]

1 hour ago, Findus said:

. But also I couldn't help noticing the larger percentage of NB people within the ace community, which would also go in the same direction.

 

I dont understand the point you are trying to make here, could you explain a little more? I am interested in such a discussion. 

 

I dont know if there is any truth in the cliche, I have known about 2 lesbians in my life and both are more masculine but I also see more feminine lesbians on TV. I (asexual) have never felt any need to present as specifically feminine and since I discovered Aven and started questioning my gender, I have gone back to a more masculine gender presentation (I had a slightly more masculine/neutral one in school around 11 - 16). I have since come the conclusion that it is most likely I am female but I like expressing a more masculine gender and occasionally trying to present as masculine. 

[TheSilentScientist]

On 8/19/2017 at 4:08 PM, Findus said:

On this subject I remember a researcher / professor in humanities in my uni who mentioned that there are far more men in sciences and more women in humanities, and that incidentally when there are men in humanities, a big percentage of them are gay.

So then does this mean that a larger percentage of women in science are lesbians?

Personally, I think this is a false narrative. 

Traditionally, all university studies, whether sciences or humanities were for men only. It's only within the past century that women have entered this domain and now represent over 50% (at least in my country) of students in university. I think people tend to latch onto this dynamic that humanities are for women and science for men, because science was determined to be more intellectually challenging. But both require a great deal of intelligence and therefore if basis and inequality didn't exist then both domains would be equally populated by men and women.

As for more gay men in humanities. I think people tend to make a bigger deal about the "taboo" of gay men than gay/lesbian women. Therefore, by that fact, we become more aware of gay men and may think there are more gay men in a certain career path. But honestly, how often do we mislabel peoples' sexuality too, based on gender and behaviour? While I don't know the stats, surely there are as many gay men in humanities as there is in the sciences. Although, there may also be more pressure in science to hide your sexuality.

[Brighterside]

Stereotypes and clichés like these simply wouldn't exist if there wasn't some truth behind them. Whilst not all gay men are more effeminate and not all lesbians are more masculine, in history there have been enough cases of gays presenting as the other gender for these stigmas to form.

[F1shCake]

I started questioning my aroaceness because related to so many experiences talking to a-spec enbies. And maybe being uninterested in romance allows you to care less about what other people think because you don't care about dating?

[Jea]

12 hours ago, TheSilentScientist said:

So then does this mean that a larger percentage of women in science are lesbians?

Personally, I think this is a false narrative.

In this precise example I was citing it is clearly a fact, but as it is a small uni it does not mean that it has to always be the case, it is not very representative.

12 hours ago, TheSilentScientist said:

Traditionally, all university studies, whether sciences or humanities were for men only. It's only within the past century that women have entered this domain and now represent over 50% (at least in my country) of students in university. I think people tend to latch onto this dynamic that humanities are for women and science for men, because science was determined to be more intellectually challenging. But both require a great deal of intelligence and therefore if basis and inequality didn't exist then both domains would be equally populated by men and women.

As for more gay men in humanities. I think people tend to make a bigger deal about the "taboo" of gay men than gay/lesbian women. Therefore, by that fact, we become more aware of gay men and may think there are more gay men in a certain career path. But honestly, how often do we mislabel peoples' sexuality too, based on gender and behaviour? While I don't know the stats, surely there are as many gay men in humanities as there is in the sciences. Although, there may also be more pressure in science to hide your sexuality.

Although yes, all university studies were reserved for men in past centuries, humanities are considered for women simply because it's supposed to be mainly about emotions, which women supposedly have, whereas science is considered to be about reason, which men are supposedly better at. In my opinion, even if most of us don't think that men are better with reason and women with emotions nowadays, it is part of the unconscious and the culture, and as they are raised to be that way, and therefore the cliché becomes partly true. This explanation is only a guess, but the fact that there are more men in sciences and more women in humanities is true.

That there is a higher percentage of gay men in humanities (and yes, of lesbians in sciences)...idk. I think so, from my observations, but I cannot understand why, unless I start thinking in terms of clichés and gender expression, which the post was about. I don't really understand these questions tbh.

 

On 19/08/2017 at 11:57 PM, banana monkey said:

On 19/08/2017 at 10:08 PM, Findus said:

But also I couldn't help noticing the larger percentage of NB people within the ace community, which would also go in the same direction.

I dont understand the point you are trying to make here, could you explain a little more? I am interested in such a discussion.

Sorry for the super late reply, I'd totally forgotten about this post. Yes, my idea was that, if the cliché that sexuality determines a part of gender expression is considered true, or partly true (as in, hetero men are supposed to present in a more masculine way than gay men), then those who are asexual would tend to present in a less strongly gendered fashion? It's all suppositions that come from observations, no scientific truth in what I say.

 

3 minutes ago, F1shCake said:

 

Stereotypes and clichés like these simply wouldn't exist if there wasn't some truth behind them. Whilst not all gay men are more effeminate and not all lesbians are more masculine, in history there have been enough cases of gays presenting as the other gender for these stigmas to form.

 

I agree with you here. The cliché has to come from a certain truth originally. But I can't help wondering why sexual orientation has an influence on their gender expression -- is it for cultural reasons, or that they want to be more like women to attract men? Or is there an actual biological link between sexual orientation and gender (and not just gender expression)?