I feel ashamed of it. [rant]

[binary suns]

 

 

I don't share a lot of political beliefs with the almost extremist left-leaning political discourse of the popularized gender.. ideology. I have a hard time discussing gender with most people on this forum both because I don't feel comfortable navigating around the "don't misgender" and "no personal attacks" policies because comments which I find to be harmless and in fact intending on finding a conversation and possible insight, the community finds to be transphobic and ban-worthy insult. but secondly because if I do have a conversation, the discourse that ensues makes me confused and uncomfortable. 

 

The large majority of trans folk that I see identify with beliefs that I just do not identify with. but of course, I do not feel to be right-wing, I do not feel i am a conservative at all except in recognition that things which succeed probably succeed for a reason. but beyond that nod of.. well, concession to what is apparently true NOW, I actually am more liberal than not. 

 

Yet, I am  not liberal enough to fit in with the vocal trans crowd. 

 

This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I feel both voiceless, ashamed, and like I do not belong to "trans" identity. 

 

more and more each week I notice that when I look in the mirror - no longer am I first and foremost ashamed of my masculine affect, but rather I am ashamed of my embarrasing... life decision to transition. because what it is slowly starting to represents to me, begrudgingly, is an insidious* insistence on "the others" changing who they are because they are "wrong" and "are harrassing bullies" when I just don't hold those oppinions. I am afraid that people will yell at me for beliefs I don't hold, and I will not have anything to say but to shamefully agree with them, passively submit to their abuse, because what am I going to do? 

 

As the trans discussion becomes more and more vocal, popular, and essentially a social justice movement, I feel more and more alone in the world as technically I am on neither side. I find the people who do share some of my beliefs to also say things which downright disgust me, but the things that the people who defend against transphobia says make me worry even more so than just some stupid hatespeech. 

 

For example, the absolute denial of the fact that the large majority of people don't differentiate their gender from their sex, and in fact hold a world view based upon that? whether or not sex -> gender is universal to all, which clearly it isn't, outright denying that it is generally true - as in that the most common gender identity is synonymous with sex - is kinda absurd by my view. the claims that such statements are bigotry absolutely confound me, and I feel voiceless in trying to explain it. 

 

 

 

 

and to be honest? I really don't want to be part of some political/ideological debate. I don't want that to be an essential part of my life. I don't want to dissect gender to better understand it to be a part of my life. I don't want to spend a large chunk of my time making efforts to change who I am to be more feminine. the only thing I want is to have been born a girl, with the natural time of life - my youth- having been properly spent on finding my truer feminine personality, rather than in confusion and shame settling down with the masculine alternative I've scrounged together that feels "comfortable enough" to be me. I want to be able to, on my "down" and "unmotivated" days get up in the morning, skip my bath, dress in comfy clothes, go out and be seen as a woman - not as a man because I didn't take the time to put on makeup to hide the masculine features. I want to have a feminine voice and body and face, rather than a neanderthal's masculine face, narrow hips of a man, and etc. I know that this body would've certainly not looked as so, had I been born a woman proper.

 

and honestly if ever I try to address that VERY REAL DYSPHORIC experience that I have on this site, I only get people trying to say that I am a real woman. that I was born a woman beause that's how I recognize myself to be. that's kind of silly in my eyes - both because well, I look at my body and see a man's body. and I look to others and notice they see me as a man.

 

 I NEED the discourse to talk about how I am not in the body I feel I should be in. How I am... fuck me for fucking having to dumb it down to these painful words... not a real woman.** But it gets denied of me by... what appears to me to be trans-elitist ideology... and accusations of transphobia. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

how can I be transphobic if I'm literally speaking for my personal experience as a trans person???????????????????????

 

 

 

 

NO of course I do not speak universally to all trans folk. Why isn't this assumed by default? No one in the world can possibly speak for everyone. And everyone's beliefs are necessarily biased by their own subjective anecdotal experience. All I want, is I want my version of gender to be a  recognized part of the visibility effort, sharing space with the alternative views... but instead, it is denied and ostracized. I, a trans person, with my personal experience, am being ostracized from the gender discussion because the things which I view as useful and relevant information to discuss MY trans experience, is being outright contradicted and disowned by the common discourse, addressed as transphobic and untrue - when it is very true for me and not just me but others too who constantly get berated.

 

 

 

*insidious is not the right word, but I don't know what is. I do not understand the word "insidious" correctly... 

 

 

** "not a real woman" That isn't the way I want to say it because it fucking sounds like somehow I am fake and phony and can't be authentic - yuck! But any other words I try get... belittled, as the peers attempt to "affirm" my gender... when that isn't even what I want to talk about. I know my gender is woman and if I say so then it's true.. but my reality of existence in this social world is... I am a fucking man right now. and I want to change that. I don't want your shitty fucking affirmations that literally shame my dysphoria.

 

[Emery.]

Have you looked into other websites than this one? I don't have such a feeling that your experience is uncommon at all. Susan's maybe? Just off the top of my head. 

[FinneganOFay]

I'm sorry to hear you've been experiencing that. I also don't think it sounds like your experience is that unusual. Being trans shouldn't have to affect your political views, and hopefully in the long term that will become the case. The dysphoria is real, and your struggle with it is valid. While they're not forums, I've found some very helpful material on youtube as a starting place.

[vmdraco]

2 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

I don't share a lot of political beliefs with the almost extremist left-leaning political discourse of the popularized gender.. ideology. I have a hard time discussing gender with most people on this forum both because I don't feel comfortable navigating around the "don't misgender" and "no personal attacks" policies because comments which I find to be harmless and in fact intending on finding a conversation and possible insight, the community finds to be transphobic and ban-worthy insult. but secondly because if I do have a conversation, the discourse that ensues makes me confused and uncomfortable. 

 

The large majority of trans folk that I see identify with beliefs that I just do not identify with. but of course, I do not feel to be right-wing, I do not feel i am a conservative at all except in recognition that things which succeed probably succeed for a reason. but beyond that nod of.. well, concession to what is apparently true NOW, I actually am more liberal than not. 

 

Yet, I am  not liberal enough to fit in with the vocal trans crowd. 

 

This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I feel both voiceless, ashamed, and like I do not belong to "trans" identity.

This is going to sound stupid and sappy but thank you for sharing this, and being open about something this personal.  I can relate to what you mean, I feel similarly.  It feels like you have to walk on eggshells sometimes, even if you're well-meaning and even if you try your best to be respectful of peoples' pronoun usage and what could be deemed offensive or transphobic.  No one is perfect at this, and even if you make a mistake I think it's wrong on someone's part to silence you when you should be part of the discussion as well.  Regardless of your political views you absolutely belong in the trans community, even if other people don't think you do (which... I would be very upset if they did say that simply for differing opinions).

 

2 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

As the trans discussion becomes more and more vocal, popular, and essentially a social justice movement, I feel more and more alone in the world as technically I am on neither side. I find the people who do share some of my beliefs to also say things which downright disgust me, but the things that the people who defend against transphobia says make me worry even more so than just some stupid hatespeech. 

 

For example, the absolute denial of the fact that the large majority of people don't differentiate their gender from their sex, and in fact hold a world view based upon that? whether or not sex -> gender is universal to all, which clearly it isn't, outright denying that it is generally true - as in that the most common gender identity is synonymous with sex - is kinda absurd by my view. the claims that such statements are bigotry absolutely confound me, and I feel voiceless in trying to explain it.

100% agree with you here.  I came out very late but I find it very uncomfortable that it's being pushed into the limelight and most of the time adding insult to injury.  While I think it's good that it's being talked about more often and making younger generations more accepting, the media does not portray trans people well and continues to fuck up post-Caitlin Jenner (as I'd like to call it).  It feels really uncomfortable that there's a feeling of not fully belonging with the newer generation of trans kids who are very familiar with the ever-changing terminology.  I go to school at a liberal college and a lot of the people I befriend are around my sister's age, 19, while I'm in my early 20's (not a wide age range, but enough of a gap technologically for there to be a social difference, especially when I didn't grow up with tumblr).  They are very, very vocal and more aggressive with their stances on trans rights than I am as an actual trans person, which is both a blessing and a curse because it draws more attention to something that is very personal for us individually, but on the upside they are very supportive and compassionate about it which is appreciated.

 

Oh sweet tap-dancing Christ, finally, someone says it.  I am 100% for non-binary folk to accept themselves and being open with their identity, and I am supportive of them as people and as folk who may ID as trans.  However the recent crowd of those that reject the majority of people that exist simply because of their own experiences as someone outside the binary is a bit unrealistic imo.  Most of the people on earth ID as the sex they assign at birth, and that is okay.  I don't think that fact denies non-binary/trans people their existence.  Because of this, though, there has been of rise of people that outright hate cisgender people and openly say so; it's easy to be frustrated with cisgender people because we are a small part of society that most people do not understand, but the amount of disgust and hatred for them for not understanding and being defensive over small comments I feel hurts our community.  Believe me, I am frustrated with cisgender people on a regular basis, especially those close to me who refuse to accept something that is part of me, but I don't feel it helps anyone for me to attack them personally, and make it out for them to be the bad guy all the time.  It's exhausting, and draining.  I've literally crashed emotionally so many times in the past year since coming out of the closet from how much it wears on me, and to disconnect for a while has helped me realize that it doesn't help me get closer to being at peace.  Sometimes, I feel it's important to not focus so much on what society wants to say about us and the constant negativity surrounding being trans, because at the end of the day we exist and we aren't going anywhere and being happy with ourselves is what matters the most.  The rest of the haters can shove it!        

 

2 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

I really don't want to be part of some political/ideological debate. I don't want that to be an essential part of my life. I don't want to dissect gender to better understand it to be a part of my life. I don't want to spend a large chunk of my time making efforts to change who I am to be more feminine. the only thing I want is to have been born a girl, with the natural time of life - my youth- having been properly spent on finding my truer feminine personality, rather than in confusion and shame settling down with the masculine alternative I've scrounged together that feels "comfortable enough" to be me. I want to be able to, on my "down" and "unmotivated" days get up in the morning, skip my bath, dress in comfy clothes, go out and be seen as a woman - not as a man because I didn't take the time to put on makeup to hide the masculine features. I want to have a feminine voice and body and face, rather than a neanderthal's masculine face, narrow hips of a man, and etc. I know that this body would've certainly not looked as so, had I been born a woman proper.

 

and honestly if ever I try to address that VERY REAL DYSPHORIC experience that I have on this site, I only get people trying to say that I am a real woman. that I was born a woman beause that's how I recognize myself to be. that's kind of silly in my eyes - both because well, I look at my body and see a man's body. and I look to others and notice they see me as a man.

 

 I NEED the discourse to talk about how I am not in the body I feel I should be in. How I am... fuck me for fucking having to dumb it down to these painful words... not a real woman.** But it gets denied of me by... what appears to me to be trans-elitist ideology... and accusations of transphobia. 

 

how can I be transphobic if I'm literally speaking for my personal experience as a trans person???????????????????????

 

NO of course I do not speak universally to all trans folk. Why isn't this assumed by default? No one in the world can possibly speak for everyone. And everyone's beliefs are necessarily biased by their own subjective anecdotal experience. All I want, is I want my version of gender to be a  recognized part of the visibility effort, sharing space with the alternative views... but instead, it is denied and ostracized. I, a trans person, with my personal experience, am being ostracized from the gender discussion because the things which I view as useful and relevant information to discuss MY trans experience, is being outright contradicted and disowned by the common discourse, addressed as transphobic and untrue - when it is very true for me and not just me but others too who constantly get berated.

This.  I think what you just explained here is so important.  This is your reality as a trans person and as someone who ID's as female and knowing the body you are in from birth should not and will not make you transphobic.  You are not transphobic at all for stating any of this and I'm really upset that someone on here would call you transphobic for your own truth.  If you see yourself that way, then you are in your right to feel that way!  I also agree that being trans shouldn't be the central part of your life, because it's simply a fact of existence and with all the recent coverage of it it can be hard to get away and just be, and not focus so much on what makes you different.

 

Apologies if I misinterpreted anything that you say, because I also don't want to offend you for something that is personal to you.   

[binary suns]

1 hour ago, vmdraco said:

This.  I think what you just explained here is so important.  This is your reality as a trans person and as someone who ID's as female and knowing the body you are in from birth should not and will not make you transphobic.  You are not transphobic at all for stating any of this and I'm really upset that someone on here would call you transphobic for your own truth.  If you see yourself that way, then you are in your right to feel that way!  I also agree that being trans shouldn't be the central part of your life, because it's simply a fact of existence and with all the recent coverage of it it can be hard to get away and just be, and not focus so much on what makes you different.

moreover they call me transphobic if I try to address someone else as baing a man or woman. The thing I struggle to explain is that I 100% identify as a woman now - but I see that I am a man in effect. To acknowledge that is not phobic of who I am - maybe to have to face someone attempting to convince me that I cannot be a woman I could see the argument that that is transphobic (But as I've said - it isn't so much transphobic as it is applying one's own experience by assumption to other people - tho certainly given context there is tranphobia there.... grrr did I say this well? I doubt it... )  but the thing is. if other people look to me and see a man, there is no transphobia there given that I look and sound like one. It would be just as rude for me to try to tell them to stfu and call me a woman as it would for them to try to convince me I am not one. I guess what I really should be saying - rather than deny the phobia as I can't really change someone else's oppinion on that - personally I do not necessarily find it transphobic - but rather to say that if it is phobic then why respond in kind? 

[Guest]

I'm following a show about a gyspy trans couple who are both FTM and MTF, the most interesting comment i heard from the lady was that she was like: "At one point you just gotta stop giving a shit about what others think and feel about you because you can never please them anyway, so i'm just going to be myself and live my life that way"  I found it a very interesting comment coming from someone who had to deal with so much transphobia i admire her for her strenght and courage to carry on like that. Maybe it's  a good thing to think about

[Calligraphette_Coe]

18 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

moreover they call me transphobic if I try to address someone else as baing a man or woman. The thing I struggle to explain is that I 100% identify as a woman now - but I see that I am a man in effect. To acknowledge that is not phobic of who I am - maybe to have to face someone attempting to convince me that I cannot be a woman I could see the argument that that is transphobic (But as I've said - it isn't so much transphobic as it is applying one's own experience by assumption to other people - tho certainly given context there is tranphobia there.... grrr did I say this well? I doubt it... )  but the thing is. if other people look to me and see a man, there is no transphobia there given that I look and sound like one. It would be just as rude for me to try to tell them to stfu and call me a woman as it would for them to try to convince me I am not one. I guess what I really should be saying - rather than deny the phobia as I can't really change someone else's oppinion on that - personally I do not necessarily find it transphobic - but rather to say that if it is phobic then why respond in kind? 

IDK, if your official government issued ID says you're a woman, I don't think it's too much to ask gently to not be misgendered. To persist and use looks as an excuse _is_ rude. 

 

 Just as rude is when someone androgynous like me is called 'he/she' just to get in a dig of disapproval. And this is the kind of "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" excusing of blatant transphobia as "free speech" that give aid and comfort to hostile people. And although my dysphoria and looks aren't their problem, why should we continually turn the other cheek and apologize for something that harms no one. Because once you do that, that 'extra mile' they take often crosses the line to justifying discrimination and unprovoked violence. 'See what you made me do!' 

 

And I think there is ample argumentation for the existence of internalized transphobia. Maybe it's because I grew up seeing that being gay could get you committed or asked to undergo electroshock therapy. At one point, enough people got sick and tired of it enough to stand up and say, "It ends here." 

 

And we know how that turned out. 

 

Because if you don't stand together sometimes, you stand alone-- a minority of one.

[binary suns]

IDK, if your official government issued ID says you're a woman, I don't think it's too much to ask gently to not be misgendered. To persist and use looks as an excuse _is_ rude. 

 

 Just as rude is when someone androgynous like me is called 'he/she' just to get in a dig of disapproval.

 

I hear you and really I agree with this very much! 

 

I think, well no I should say - I try to remember, that I've found that in the moment - the thoughts that come to mind - are assumptions - and if I take them to be true, then, at least in the feeling of it, I make them to be true. Maybe you could argue that if I take a person's transphobia to be innocent remarks, then I'm being delusional. but - the reverse really is what I'm trying to say - if someone says something innocently to me - and I get irritated and assume they mean something rude - then I respond to them rudely, and then they return with their first rudeness. I am the one who has created the disagreement and argument and rudeness, by taking a neutral statement to be a rude one when it was not.

 

and I do not speak just to the trans situation in this thought.

 

But, I try to remember - to let them be as they are, and to not make an assumption - to react in a way that operates under a neutral assumption. If I disagree with what they said, would I assume they were rude, I would react poorly. But if instead I do not assume anything, I will react with a neutral tone - and that will make a huge difference for both of us and any observers. If I disagree with them, then I will with a neutral or polite tone, speak my disagreement plainly. If I have any request to make, I will request so patiently and humbly. After all, I cannot control how they feel - I can only voice my own concerns or intentions. 

 

Right now it seems a lot of trans folk automatically jump to conclusions that a stranger is being rude and transphobic - and mirrored, a lot of non-trans folk automatically jump to the conclusion that a trans folk speaking on the net is being "SJW" and a special snowflake. But I feel that these two prejudices are fueling eachothers' fires. 

 

The thing is - I know that there is transphobia out there, and yes sometimes when someone misgenders it is so. But - not always. That is all the message I want to speak to - that to claim that misgendering is necessarily transphobic, is a problematic statement.

 

Transphobia sometimes reveals itself through an act of misgendering. 

 

you ask, 

 

1 hour ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

And this is the kind of "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" excusing of blatant transphobia as "free speech" that give aid and comfort to hostile people. And although my dysphoria and looks aren't their problem, why should we continually turn the other cheek and apologize for something that harms no one. Because once you do that, that 'extra mile' they take often crosses the line to justifying discrimination and unprovoked violence. 'See what you made me do!' 

my response is to say I do not intend to present such a statement in any way by the opening post's rant. if there is a person who holds transphobia, I will not deny that they do. But - too often there is the attitude that certain statements or beliefs are inherently transphobic, when they literally are not. Such statements and beliefs I refer to, are formed and held by people before they even know of transgender being a thing. These statements in fact, applicable to trans' peoples concern as well - the belief to say, that a person's body shows their gender. This is true - because a trans person's gender conflicts with that! do you not see? it is not denied by the existence of a trans person, it is built upon. My biology has me developing physically like a male person. This is very relevant in many ways to my life - both positively and, in my dysphoria, negatively. As my gender conflicts with my body - it is necessary that I have a "reproductive gender" which is male, despite that my "gender identity" is female. even as hormones and eventually surgery will make me infertile, the "reproductive gender" is a relevant reality of my life - and later my past life. To deny that the gender binary has had me born as male - despite always being trans - is to deny the reality of trans itself. How can someone be across genders, aka transgender, if they were not in some way both male and female (in my example of my identity)?

 

See, I feel that I am a woman. I identify as one, I seek to exist as a woman. But this conflict does not mean that I am not a man - it means that I am a man who feels like a woman - and that someday I will be a woman who feels as a woman who once was a man who felt as a woman.

 

 

But all this is often called transphobic. The statments I make in this post likely make some people cringe and dislike me. And, I find this concerning. These statements I make - are not at all transphobic, but at least for me - and I assume that if anyone else would think to what I say honestly, assuming I speak it without errors that misguide, they would see that these states are true to us. That, it is very relevant that the gender binary is known, in order to deny it for a tg/nb's self. this does not make it untrue but only inaccurate... follow this example:

 

it is like how most people know gravity to be 9.8 m/s2. or most years to be denoted with 365 days. or that people measure things with inches or meters at all in the first place. Or that we call a tree a tree without needing to call it a Red Oak or a Cornus oblonga.- these are all ideas, measurements, nomenclature, concepts, etc, used to adequately reflect the world we live in. They are not exactly the world itself - at best, a shadow of it. We work under the concession that our tools of description are imprecise. The easier-to-understand concepts are usually less precise - but in being so, they are great stepping stones to begin to build an understanding of what things are. And to most folk - knowing that "gravity is the force which pulls us to earth" is the least precise understanding we need to describe the world. In this same way - to most folk - "men and women are the two genders, women with breasts and beauty and men with no breasts and with strength" is the similar imprecise measurement that is good enough to build an adequate understanding of the world. Just because there is more to the story - doesn't make either of these to be wrong at all.

 

Is this making sense? I hope so....

 

 

but to return to what you ask. I do not ask that you apologize for being trans. I do not ask for you to turn the other cheek. I don't feel that these are needed responses - I only ask in this line, to be more accepting of diversity, rather than force it to be a war. Do you see how that is different?

 

To listen to someone who is different, rather than speak over them. If someone is rude - and/or if you do not have patience for someone for any reason. You have perfect freedom to act in any way that you feel is appropriate. I hold no judgment of you just for how you choose to act, believe, say, or etc. these are choices you make in a moment - and regardless of if they are "right" or "wrong" by anyones judgment... it won't change what has happened. and it won't change that you are a human living your life. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

 

Because if you don't stand together sometimes, you stand alone-- a minority of one.

eh, in order for any movement to be "standing together" it had to be "as one". And further - if the minority would be not worth considering at all - then why do we bother to claim we are trans?

 

If I do not speak up to what I understand - then no one else can gain these same thoughts. Often I get criticized with arguments of this or that, but it is frustrating 'cause usually these arguments are ones I've already considered, and in fact agree with. "trans people are valid" yes indeed. "misgednering is not ok" yes, agreed. "someone who misgenders me should not be rewarded for their rudeness" I feel the same.

 

 

but no one seems to realize, that declaring "the gender binary is wrong - there is no binary!" this is cisphobic AND transphobic. the gender binary is imprecise, but it is very useful to create a first understanding, and in fact is necessary to find anything more precise. The gender binary is necessary in order for a transperson or a nb person to identify themselves at all - in denial of its identity for their own sake. This does not make the gender binary wrong - it makes the gender binary inaccurate for the trans/nb individual. Just like it isn't wrong to say "gravity is the force that pulls us to the earth" - it is inaccurate to anyone who needs to calculate interstellar forces, or who is leaping on the moon.

 

 

 

[binary suns]

if a person makes argument A, B, and C - and C is incorrect - it does not necessarily mean anything about either A or B.

 

The "gender binary" classical argument is -

Quote

• I have a male XY chromosome;
• my body creates testosterone naturally - the male hormones;
• at puberty I developed secondary traits typically seen in men more often and more prominently than in women;
• I produce sperm for the sake of reproduction the male gamete;
• I am recognized as a man;
• I identify as a man.

 

 

But, I actually identify as a woman.

 

This does not make the other statements incorrect. This does not make the other statements transphobic. This does not mean that if someone says I am a man, that they are automatically transphobic. This does not mean that all cases where someone address me as "sir" comes from transphobia. In fact, right now, I encounter very little transphobia in my life, as I let people address me as sir without saying anything, and do not identify myself to anyone as a woman. In fact, the rare few times I have been out to people IRL, they have been accepting or even supportive of me.

 

A transphobic person will very likely misgender me - but to gender me as a male is not necessarily transphobic, even tho I do very much so identify as a woman. As a transfeminine woman. Not bigender - a woman 100%. It would not be incorrect to make a claim that I am a man right now, as I am almost always recognized as a man when I go out in public. There is a reason for that - I look like a lot of men and very few women. This is not a transphobic statement!

[Calligraphette_Coe]

3 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

 

The thing is - I know that there is transphobia out there, and yes sometimes when someone misgenders it is so. But - not always. That is all the message I want to speak to - that to claim that misgendering is necessarily transphobic, is a problematic statement.

 

Transphobia sometimes reveals itself through an act of misgendering. 

 

you ask, 

 

my response is to say I do not intend to present such a statement in any way by the opening post's rant. if there is a person who holds transphobia, I will not deny that they do. But - too often there is the attitude that certain statements or beliefs are inherently transphobic, when they literally are not. Such statements and beliefs I refer to, are formed and held by people before they even know of transgender being a thing. These statements in fact, applicable to trans' peoples concern as well - the belief to say, that a person's body shows their gender. This is true - because a trans person's gender conflicts with that! do you not see? it is not denied by the existence of a trans person, it is built upon. My biology has me developing physically like a male person. This is very relevant in many ways to my life - both positively and, in my dysphoria, negatively. As my gender conflicts with my body - it is necessary that I have a "reproductive gender" which is male, despite that my "gender identity" is female. even as hormones and eventually surgery will make me infertile, the "reproductive gender" is a relevant reality of my life - and later my past life. To deny that the gender binary has had me born as male - despite always being trans - is to deny the reality of trans itself. How can someone be across genders, aka transgender, if they were not in some way both male and female (in my example of my identity)?

 

See, I feel that I am a woman. I identify as one, I seek to exist as a woman. But this conflict does not mean that I am not a man - it means that I am a man who feels like a woman - and that someday I will be a woman who feels as a woman who once was a man who felt as a woman.

 

 

But all this is often called transphobic. The statments I make in this post likely make some people cringe and dislike me. And, I find this concerning. These statements I make - are not at all transphobic, but at least for me - and I assume that if anyone else would think to what I say honestly, assuming I speak it without errors that misguide, they would see that these states are true to us. That, it is very relevant that the gender binary is known, in order to deny it for a tg/nb's self. this does not make it untrue but only inaccurate... follow this example:

 

it is like how most people know gravity to be 9.8 m/s2. or most years to be denoted with 365 days. or that people measure things with inches or meters at all in the first place. Or that we call a tree a tree without needing to call it a Red Oak or a Cornus oblonga.- these are all ideas, measurements, nomenclature, concepts, etc, used to adequately reflect the world we live in. They are not exactly the world itself - at best, a shadow of it. We work under the concession that our tools of description are imprecise. The easier-to-understand concepts are usually less precise - but in being so, they are great stepping stones to begin to build an understanding of what things are. And to most folk - knowing that "gravity is the force which pulls us to earth" is the least precise understanding we need to describe the world. In this same way - to most folk - "men and women are the two genders, women with breasts and beauty and men with no breasts and with strength" is the similar imprecise measurement that is good enough to build an adequate understanding of the world. Just because there is more to the story - doesn't make either of these to be wrong at all.

 

Is this making sense? I hope so.... ppropriate. I hold no judgment of you just for how you choose to act, believe, say, or etc. these are choices you make in a moment - and regardless of if they are "right" or "wrong" by anyones judgment... it won't change what has happened. and it won't change that you are a human living your life. 

I guess it follows under the rule from General Semantics that "The Map is Not the Territory." But lots of people use 'the map' to deligitimize 'the territory' and one's journey through it. Even here, I got misgendered some time ago and never received an apology for it. Just because I related something that happened to me and tried to put it in context. When  I read the words '.. not to invalidate you, but.....' I thought 'Here it comes'. 

 

And it did.

 

Unlike you, I'll never grasp the brass ring of transistion. Because of a congential accident, my medical history is always going to read 'DO NOT let this one transistion with HRT for their own good.' 

 

And that forever is going to be the dagger at my throat. Even, apparently, in safe spaces. It's like I'm a stateless person writing petitions for citizenship with  pleas for political correctness. Even if I work for the Greater Good, it seems, I'll never be allowed to escape  my defective biology and dance under the moonlight.

 

IDK, if I live long enough, it's my intent to use some of the treasure I've worked a lifetime to amass to create a space online where these kinds of transphobia are not tolerated. Where *I* get to be the final arbiter of what is fair and what crosses the line into oppression. To be an oasis in the desert where Refuseniks like moi' come to drink and be given their just due for having made the trek under the scorching sun of bigotry.

[binary suns]

@Calligraphette_Coe I am sorry but I do not understand that post very well at all. do you feel that my words have wronged you or been overall transphobic? do you agree/disagree with any of the things I've said? how is being trans competitive? (isn't that what it means "to grab a brass ring") and how does your inability to use HRT get unappreciated in trans spaces?

[Calligraphette_Coe]

26 minutes ago, Teagan1 said:

@Calligraphette_Coe I am sorry but I do not understand that post very well at all. do you feel that my words have wronged you or been overall transphobic? do you agree/disagree with any of the things I've said? how is being trans competitive? (isn't that what it means "to grab a brass ring") and how does your inability to use HRT get unappreciated in trans spaces?

Once upon a time, about 15 years ago after my 3rd stroke, I joined a group called 'No Transition'. At first, many of us commiserated with each other, but then the group slowly became dominated by people who _were_ transistioning. Who seemed oblivious to the damage to feelings they were causing by using the group to promote transition. Finally, and the last insult for many of the people there, a post-op became the moderator and posted remarks made by a British gender shrink:

 

Quote

HRT separates the women from the boys.

A lot of people protested, and the mod used her powers to squelch it, and leave the toxic sentiments in place. Most of us quit, and I assume the group fell apart and ceased to exist soon after. I think you could make a case that that was her intent all along, and that her half-hearted attempts to mollify the people who were wronged by it were steeped in bigotry against the very people for whom the group existed. Many of those attempts used some of your logic, that those of us felt wronged needed to accept that we were children of a lesser god, and even if that group was a temple, it should follow THEIR rules.

 

So when you say we should accept essentialism and allow those purveyors a free and uncontested open mic to say what they will? And to accept it?

 

No.

 

Just no.

 

I know where that leads. 

 

On one of the last Apollo missions to the moon, one of the astronauts did the classic experiment of dropping a hammer and a feather simultaneously. They of course hit the moons surface at the same time. With the same forces.

 

Just like that HRT essentialist statement in No Transistion. That shit happens where there is a vacuum of feelings, and I see no reason to postulate its beneficial nature. Sorry,  I just don't.

 

So when it happend here again this year? It was the hammer I felt, not the feather.

 

HTH.

[Sally]

5 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

See, I feel that I am a woman. I identify as one, I seek to exist as a woman. But this conflict does not mean that I am not a man - it means that I am a man who feels like a woman - and that someday I will be a woman who feels as a woman who once was a man who felt as a woman.

 

 

As an older cisgendered woman who has never even read about trans before I came to AVEN -- I must say that what you said above is extremely clear to me.   It stands as your personal statement that should be respected, and should not need to be artificially compared to any particular political set of beliefs.   You state how you feel about yourself, but you realistically recognize what others might see.  

[binary suns]

39 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

So when you say we should accept essentialism and allow those purveyors a free and uncontested open mic to say what they will? And to accept it?

what? I didn't say this. I said, well I said to listen to them and let them be in what they say. but that isn't to be "free uncontested open mic" lol - do indeed contest them if you disagree - go right ahead. to "Accept" it - no, you accept them for theirselves. You accept that they feel that way and believe that way. You allow them to be different - because no matter what you do, they ARE different. Disagree with them and vocalize it if you want - but I ask that you look for ways to do that, where you are saying what you believe. not "correcting" them when that isn't reality. you can't "Correct" opinion.

 

[binary suns]

45 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Many of those attempts used some of your logic, that those of us felt wronged needed to accept that we were children of a lesser god

WTF? this isn't my logic at all! I find such a statement as horrifying as you find it!

[binary suns]

46 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

vacuum of feelings

this does not describe me in any way.

[binary suns]

@Calligraphette_Coe I feel so sorry for your bad experiences I wish I knew a way to help recover from them. I wish I knew a way to recover from my own bad experiences too... life sure is hard isn't it?

[binary suns]

*looked up the word*

 

maybe also I should clarify that what I speak to is not essentialism. I don't care that things get taught by my way - I care that the label "transphobia" stopped being thrown around at what is quite relevant to my experience as a trans person. I feel that the common discourse used to discuss gender erases who I am, and other trans folk similar to me, as well as the experience of many cis gendered folk.

 

 

I ask, is it really the case that your gender identity is entirely pinned upon your pronoun? because as much as it matters to me that someday my pronoun will be she her everywhere I'm addressed, that is not why I'm trans in anyway. my pronoun is not who I am and it's not the pinnacle of my identity as a woman. but everyone making such a racket about pronoun politics sure makes it feel that way.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

27 minutes ago, Teagan1 said:

@Calligraphette_Coe I feel so sorry for your bad experiences I wish I knew a way to help recover from them. I wish I knew a way to recover from my own bad experiences too... life sure is hard isn't it?

It is, and you're beginning to understand where we are both coming from. Empathy is sometimes the only remedy. Being able to imagine what it feels like to experience something outside your own experiences helps you to understand the damage that  giving political incorrectness a free pass can sometimes do.

[binary suns]

I am sorry to have to say this, but your bad experiences have nothing to do with my message. I please request that you try to recognize that I am not those people who hurt you  and I do not share their values. what I am saying was in no way reflected by the purveyors in your memory.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

56 minutes ago, Teagan1 said:

I am sorry to have to say this, but your bad experiences have nothing to do with my message. I please request that you try to recognize that I am not those people who hurt you  and I do not share their values. what I am saying was in no way reflected by the purveyors in your memory.

I beg to differ when you post something like this:

 

Quote

I have a hard time discussing gender with most people on this forum both because I don't feel comfortable navigating around the "don't misgender" and "no personal attacks" policies because comments which I find to be harmless and in fact intending on finding a conversation and possible insight, the community finds to be transphobic and ban-worthy insult. but secondly because if I do have a conversation, the discourse that ensues makes me confused and uncomfortable. 

Those are your exact words in your OP. You don't feel bound by misgendering policies and 'no personal attacks policies' because _you_ find them harmless?  Fine. But this is EXACTLY what those people espoused-- rules that apply to only those who they feel don't belong in a place where the very name of the place suggested they DO belong.

 

How can there be any trust or willingness to share hurtful experiences when there are elements present who insist on the 'right' to say whatever no matter who is hurt? Who tell you right up front that they feel free to unload on you if the mood strikes them? All while asking that the reciprocal not be done to them? "Do unto others with no consequences" does not make for much empathy, yanno?

 

[binary suns]

5 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

I beg to differ when you post something like this:

 

Those are your exact words in your OP. You don't feel bound by misgendering policies and 'no personal attacks policies' because _you_ find them harmless?  Fine. But this is EXACTLY what those people espoused-- rules that apply to only those who they feel don't belong in a place where the very name of the place suggested they DO belong.

 

How can there be any trust or willingness to share hurtful experiences when there are elements present who insist on the 'right' to say whatever no matter who is hurt? Who tell you right up front that they feel free to unload on you if the mood strikes them? All while asking that the reciprocal not be done to them? "Do unto others with no consequences" does not make for much empathy, yanno?

 

I don't actively misgendering people.

 

there are many context in which a person denotes their own or another person's "reproductive gender" as I say it for lack of an accepted term, without it being transphobic.

 

 

there are discussions about gender that are being called transphobic, but aren't, discussions which can be very critical to unraveling identity, discovering a person's gender, denoting cultural trends of interest, exploring personality or style, sharing personal feelings about ones own identity, and other useful or positive things. perhaps even discussions about trying to understand what it is like to be cis and what it is like being trans - visibility discussions.

 

 

 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

6 hours ago, Teagan1 said:

I don't actively misgendering people.

 

there are many context in which a person denotes their own or another person's "reproductive gender" as I say it for lack of an accepted term, without it being transphobic.

 

 

there are discussions about gender that are being called transphobic, but aren't, discussions which can be very critical to unraveling identity, discovering a person's gender, denoting cultural trends of interest, exploring personality or style, sharing personal feelings about ones own identity, and other useful or positive things. perhaps even discussions about trying to understand what it is like to be cis and what it is like being trans - visibility discussions.

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you are advocating for imposing Hot Box rules on _this_ forum.

 

No thanks.

[binary suns]

2 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you are advocating for imposing Hot Box rules on _this_ forum.

 

No thanks.

ok, you are incorrect, I do not speak here "gender discussions" to change gender discussions policies, that is not my desire. I do not wish to challenge any individuals identity or statements about their own selves.

 

I rant here because I am in pain. I rant here because this place is a safe space for gender-related confessions. If I am not allowed to voice my pains in a forum built for it, then what is the forum really?

 

 

I suppose that you think I am advocating for change because I say I wish things were different? but I say what I dislike because it hurts me. I am only expressing how the belief system that people think is universal, does not apply to me. and in it being forced down my throat, I am being erased and hurt. and so I wish to express that I am being hurt, and to express who I am so that I'm not invisible.

[binary suns]

[deleted content]

 

ignore this post if it was seen by anyone. I was emotional, and when I am emotional I speak from my thoughts without patience, which means I say any thought even if it is untrue - as I don't allow myself the chance to notice the thoughts that are falsehoods are so. My thoughts do not define me - they are just a thought. exploration of what could be.

 

[Alex the Queer]

On 8/18/2017 at 2:03 PM, Teagan1 said:

For example, the absolute denial of the fact that the large majority of people don't differentiate their gender from their sex, and in fact hold a world view based upon that? whether or not sex -> gender is universal to all, which clearly it isn't, outright denying that it is generally true - as in that the most common gender identity is synonymous with sex - is kinda absurd by my view. the claims that such statements are bigotry absolutely confound me, and I feel voiceless in trying to explain it. 

this!!!!! so often the trans community forgets that us being a minority doesn't just mean it's an oppressed group. it also literally means that something is a smaller/outnumbered subset of a larger group. which still is and probably always will be extremely true for the trans community. do i think the world should try to be at least slightly more considerate to the fact that trans people exist? yes. but the community seems to lose touch with the reality of the fact that the vast majority of the world is cis. this also leads into the debates about things like being misgendered based on looks. trust me i'm an enby myself, and i know firsthand how much it sucks to have people constantly referring to you as something you're not. but the fact of the matter is that most people still see it as 'if you're biologically female then you more than likely are female' (or vice versa for male),  and thus the majority of the world operates under this simply because most of the world is cis. 

 

then there's the arguments about people doing or saying things that most of the community regards as 'incorrect'. like you, for example, referring to yourself being a male right now because you have not yet transitioned. or people sometimes referring to a trans person before they had transitioned and/or come out as their birth name/pronouns. the trans community forgets that what the majority thinks doesn't speak for every single individual. every one is going to regard the matter of whether or not they ever actually were their birth gender differently, but because the majority of the community says that whatever you now identify as is what you always were to begin with, no one's ever really allowed to say otherwise, even if they're speaking about themself. and if you ever refer to a trans person as their birth name/prounouns for any reason, good lord you're in for a s**t storm. but people don't realize that when this happens, more often than not it's because the trans individual has said it's ok with them. like with the jenner family, for example (first one i could think of). i've seen that a lot of the time if the others are talking about caitlyn before she transitioned and came out, they'll refer to her as bruce and he because that's what she was back then. and again, every individual is going to have different opinions as to whether or not they're ok with people doing that. but because the majority of the community says that trans people always have been what they go by now and that saying otherwise in any situation is transphobic, they'll jump down your throat if you do this, regardless of the individual situation.

 

ok, this is a long winded rant, and i'm not even sure exactly where i was going with it, but i hope this makes. it's just the general fact that if any one individual does or says something that the majority of the community doesn't like, you're automatically transphobic, regardless of the individual or any other circumstances and it's really frustrating 

[vmdraco]

41 minutes ago, Hamiltrash Queer said:

i've seen that a lot of the time if the others are talking about caitlyn before she transitioned and came out, they'll refer to her as bruce and he because that's what she was back then. and again, every individual is going to have different opinions as to whether or not they're ok with people doing that. but because the majority of the community says that trans people always have been what they go by now and that saying otherwise in any situation is transphobic, they'll jump down your throat if you do this, regardless of the individual situation.

I think the reason why people get so up in arms about it is because their birth name and their experiences have been used against them in order to invalidate their identity in the now, and to this day when people refer to Caitlyn as "Bruce" it's used derogatorily as a way to say that she's "a man in a dress".  A lot of people get defensive because they refuse to let anyone have agency to call them the gender that they were assigned at birth, because more often than there will be people who will use the age old "muh science" to disregard them and their identity when they are the exception to gender roles.  That doesn't mean trans people are entitled or that they feel they deserve special rights, it's more of the attitudes against them that make them preconditioned to react negatively, if that makes sense.  It doesn't excuse me, or trans people in general, to expect everyone to think that because they are trans that everyone is on the same page, though, or to act that everyone is out to get them.  I admittedly have felt that way every time I leave the house but I have to remember that it's not people's fault to equate my secondary sex characteristics to gender, because that was what everyone was taught and for most people they never question it.  It sucks, but blaming my circumstance on everyone else doesn't improve my situation, or make me look more male.  Unfortunately until I look and act like a boy, people will see me as one.

 

I think it's a matter of past versus present, too; I don't usually get offended when someone is referring to a younger version of me as my birth name and use she, mainly because my parents are the ones doing this so they can equate "who is who" so to speak, since they're the ones who raised me as their screaming gremlin; versus a stranger doing this would be upsetting because they're referring to something I don't associate with when I live in the present and they have never met me before I was trans.  This differentiation determines how I react to misgendering.  Obviously I'm still the same person but at the time I did not ID as a trans man, so for a long time I was cis until my early adulthood.  I think differentiating between that isn't a bad thing and not inherently transphobic, but again this depends on the person and the intent.  If someone knew since they were a toddler and people refuse to use their name and pronouns for the majority of their life, then I can see where that could be really infuriating and damaging because the misgendering is deliberate. 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

3 hours ago, vmdraco said:

I think the reason why people get so up in arms about it is because their birth name and their experiences have been used against them in order to invalidate their identity in the now, and to this day when people refer to Caitlyn as "Bruce" it's used derogatorily as a way to say that she's "a man in a dress".  A lot of people get defensive because they refuse to let anyone have agency to call them the gender that they were assigned at birth, because more often than there will be people who will use the age old "muh science" to disregard them and their identity when they are the exception to gender roles.  That doesn't mean trans people are entitled or that they feel they deserve special rights, it's more of the attitudes against them that make them preconditioned to react negatively, if that makes sense.  It doesn't excuse me, or trans people in general, to expect everyone to think that because they are trans that everyone is on the same page, though, or to act that everyone is out to get them.  I admittedly have felt that way every time I leave the house but I have to remember that it's not people's fault to equate my secondary sex characteristics to gender, because that was what everyone was taught and for most people they never question it.  It sucks, but blaming my circumstance on everyone else doesn't improve my situation, or make me look more male.  Unfortunately until I look and act like a boy, people will see me as one.

I don't have a choice, I have to go to work everyday in the male clownsuit and get called 'he' etc, etc, etc. That's not what I get up in arms about. What I find intolerable (and it's happened to me on many occassions) is when _trans_ people themselves commit  gross violations of ettiquete and ethics by calling me a man in a dress. Or a boy, who can't make it as a woman because I can't take hormones that would likely cascade and kill me. Or worse.

 

I can forgive the cis people who do it to an extent out of ignorance. I have ZERO patience when trans people do it. They should know better. 

 

And I also have _really_ hard time when people like that politician that used to hang out in Hot Box say they are for trans rights as long as we meekly consent to being misgendered deliberately, refusing to see even people who have transitioned as anything but their birth gender. Who refuse to use the pronouns people have asked to be called by which they have earned with their long and arduous pursuit to get right with the skin they're in.  I'm sorry that IS transphobia masquerading as Free Speech writ large. And if you're in the trans community and you want to be a free speech apologist and cut a deal with those people? Please refer to the lyrics of that old Beatles ditty, Revolution:

Quote

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world

But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

 

Sometimes you have to make a stand or get steamrolled over. If you have to go down and you've already tried turning the other cheek and only got more of the same? Why not go down fighting to the bitter end. History has shown us that sometimes, that's all you can do as underdogs: Bite back. Or keep getting kicked.

 

[vmdraco]

On 8/20/2017 at 3:48 PM, Calligraphette_Coe said:

And I also have _really_ hard time when people like that politician that used to hang out in Hot Box say they are for trans rights as long as we meekly consent to being misgendered deliberately, refusing to see even people who have transitioned as anything but their birth gender. Who refuse to use the pronouns people have asked to be called by which they have earned with their long and arduous pursuit to get right with the skin they're in.  I'm sorry that IS transphobia masquerading as Free Speech writ large. And if you're in the trans community and you want to be a free speech apologist and cut a deal with those people? Please refer to the lyrics of that old Beatles ditty,

I fully agree, and I didn't mean to insinuate that I'm advocating for people that are purposefully misgendering people under the guise of "free speech" and "it's just my opinion, calm down lol".  Those people are honestly the worst, I'm sure they also fit into the category of "well if you'll be a good transgender, then I'll do x, y, z"    I don't know who that politician was but they were probably there and gone long before I came here, and thank god they are.  Whatever they said I do not stand for.  And by saying what I said I wasn't trying to throw those people a bone so we can roll over and kiss their asses.  All I was trying to explain was that I don't expect everyone to accept me for something that most people don't get nor do I expect them to be receptive to it, and for my own mental health fighting them will be a wasted effort when I can spend more time valuing myself and my own journey to something positive.  I don't want to cut a deal with someone like that, I want to get the fuck away from them, that was what I was saying.  Maybe I'm a coward that way, but I find it emotionally exhausting to have to reiterate to people that are more concerned with their idea of me rather than who I am.  I probably didn't elaborate as much as I could have but I have trouble explaining things and articulating them in a way that can't be misconstrued (sorry).  Of course for your situation you are stuck with being unable to go to the next step, so I agree that fighting back is appropriate.

 

Nor do I find it acceptable for you to be treated with disrespect because of something as understandable as your physical health.  That's gross and I'm sorry to hear that you've experienced something like that.  Those words sound empty but I mean it.  Sometimes I think the trans community can be extremely critical of each other and their journeys for no good reason other than their own insecurities.