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Sexual abuse by women in media


Bloc

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I've read the following article in German on Vice Germany: "Versaute Klassenfahrt" und "Sex-Lehrerin": Wie Medien über Missbrauch durch Frauen reden. (TW: Description of sexual abuse). The article is a comment on how sexual abuse of male students by female teachers is presented in German yellow press. The abuse is more presented like a fun and frivolous experience which is for example called "tutoring of the special kind". This presentation is based on the stereotype that men always want sex. These articles contribute to a climate where it is humiliating to for men to talk about being abused by women.

 

In my opinion this on the same line as telling abused women they are responsible for being abused by the way act or dress.

 

How is this in other countries?

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Sexual abuse happens a lot in the US, from both sexes. It goes under reported a lot, seeing how people usually are shamed for it. It's even more under reported when it happens to guys bc they usually are made to feel like "they got a gift, they should be happy". -_- People, amirite?

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10 minutes ago, FranciumSenpai said:

"they got a gift, they should be happy". -_- People, amirite?

This is just sick.

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HallsiKallsi

In Iceland there is sadly a lot of men that find sexual abuse to be a joke, wether it be rape or inappropriate gifts, thankfully there is a yearly protest that encourages victims to come out and open up, the protest is called "druslugangan" (the slut walk) referring to how often a woman raped can be considered a slut rather than a victim

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

I think the way the media, and I can imagine it to be pretty gross in Germany because I off and on try and read German online media, selects these sorts of rape and then gives the impression it's somehow healthy rather than a vile act of asserting dominance, is disgusting. I must admit, I've been reading through some material to get a more nuanced understanding of how different genders involved in rape can be under-represented and it's quite helpful, for example I just read through some statistics showing how while it was originally thought that the more common type of rape in prisons would involve two male inmates, actually they found evidence to show it was typically a female staff member perpetrator and male inmate victim. And though at first it's hard for me to see past a less nuanced example of a feminist understanding of it, in retrospect I'm realising this relates to the capitalist lense of prisons in that people would rather think of two violent inmates abusing each other, than the reality which is that the inmate isn't necessarily violent and the staff member may get a kick out of being able to assert their authority. To be fair this was a study done of numerous different parts of the US, which I think influences things substantially since the prison system over there is so privatised, corrupt and basically designed to house/make money off of the poor. But it does illuminate how these statistics vary globally, and so in order to gain a deeper understanding of things it's important to discard any petty gendered notions of what constitutes rape and what gets treated less seriously, regardless of whether it fits with the broader views of feminism.

Sorry. Whenever I encounter something that challenges my previous views I try to look at actual research and these were some of the cases which shocked me. It should in no way be surprising to people that there can be female rapists because rape is about asserting dominance, and there are still plenty of women in positions of authority who I would definitely hate. And the German mainstream media publishing such a view of it is exactly what I hate about so many journalists.

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swirl_of_blue

What little reporting I've seen in Finland is very neutral, reported the same way a man abusing women would be. About the yellow press I don't know, since I don't follow any of those kinds of papers. But if I read any comment sections or forums online, they are full of "well, the boy should be happy he got an experienced woman" or "he surely doesn't even feel raped, and reported the incident because it makes HIM look good", and men hoping something like that would happen to them! It's disgusting.

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I know someone who was molested by his female teacher. Granted he was a child and people take sexual crimes against children a lot more seriously than adults. But people tend to think women are more trustworthy to care for children than men because they are seen as being maternal. A male teacher once demonstrated to me that if a kid wanted to hug him how he would hug back with only one arm and keep his other in plain sight so no one would think he's touching them inappropriately. Meanwhile women are trusted de facto even though they are capable of the same crimes. It's baffling to me.

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everywhere and nowhere

Anyway, thanks a lot for the link. Very interesting text.

I noticed that there is a strong tendency to blame the victims. Not just because men are supposed to always desire sex - in such specific cases, an erection is regarded as proof that the victim must have wanted it. Btw, this kind of argument doesn't notice that PIV is not the only kind of sex - for example performing oral sex on somebody against his will is rape too.

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AVEN #1 fan

I think there's a difference BTW pedophilia and rape

 

Some younger aged guys "consent" to these teachers, even though they are legally incapable of consenting. That's pedophilia.

 

Now talking about rape... yeah, this happens without any consent .

 

 

My bad people make fun of men and women when they say they were raped by cis women. they're discouraged to speak up and many get emotionally distressed.  Now about pedophilia,  idk the popular opinion on this, I think some societies are OK with this kind of deal.

 

 

I doubt in my country if any guy denounced a woman for rape he would be taken seriously or if anything would be done, I think if it was a Trans woman probably . Now for woman on man pedophilia,  yeah, Mrs. Teacher goes to jail.

 

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Popular culture in the United States encourages the seduction of male students by female teachers.

 

The males are never the ones to turn in their alleged rapists, and the latter rarely face criminal prosecution.

 

I don't see this ever changing, as long as victims refuse to be thought-of as victims.

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38 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

Anyway, thanks a lot for the link. Very interesting text.

I noticed that there is a strong tendency to blame the victims. Not just because men are supposed to always desire sex - in such specific cases, an erection is regarded as proof that the victim must have wanted it. Btw, this kind of argument doesn't notice that PIV is not the only kind of sex - for example performing oral sex on somebody against his will is rape too.

But even with PiV the argument in inherently wrong. To be physically aroused does not mean you are okay with having sex and definitely not a sign you are enjoying it, neither for women nor for men. The erection can be only a physiological response to tactile stimulation.

 

But is there a way to challenge this argument is society?

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Not until the alleged victims start acting like victims.

 

A 17-year-old man is not going to testify in court against a 30 year female teacher.

 

That's the way it is here, anyway.

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South Park actually did a commentary on this. Yeah, it was a bit in an exaggerated manner (a kindergarten teacher wanting to have "relationships" with one of her students), but the point was made with how the kid's brother tried to go to the police about it and the police were like "Oh, that's hawt ;D". When a man sexually assaults a woman in any way, the media throws a fit, but if the roles are reversed, it's a polar opposite reaction (some parents going so much "Damn, I wish that'd happen to me/my kid") like bitch no. If that actually happened to your kid, YOU'D BE RAISING HELL. 

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Plectrophenax
5 hours ago, Bloc said:

I've read the following article in German on Vice Germany: "Versaute Klassenfahrt" und "Sex-Lehrerin": Wie Medien über Missbrauch durch Frauen reden. (TW: Description of sexual abuse). The article is a comment on how sexual abuse of male students by female teachers is presented in German yellow press. The abuse is more presented like a fun and frivolous experience which is for example called "tutoring of the special kind". This presentation is based on the stereotype that men always want sex. These articles contribute to a climate where it is humiliating to for men to talk about being abused by women.

 

In my opinion this on the same line as telling abused women they are responsible for being abused by the way act or dress.

 

How is this in other countries?

Rather shocking how these are all minors. If even this is trivialised, then nevermind the dynamics between a victim and a perpetrator once both are of age.

 

The "men always want (or like) sex" notion is particularly annoying to me because it is really frighteningly easy to get that impression. From observations and even the occasional discussion with people around my age ever since the early teens it is a notion that is also upheld and reinforced by men themselves. And, as such, I would be extremely curious to know just how many men actually and sincerely feel this way. Not in the sense of trivialising what happens to others, I should say (because that isn't justifiable anyway), but men who would consider themselves effectively incapable of being the 'victim' of rape, because they would always be willing in one way or another. Not that any percentage would make it okay to assume that it applies to everyone, but it would be interesting to know nonetheless.

 

I can't really respond to your question because I don't usually read that kind of press if I can help it. I assume Switzerland is much like Germany, though.

 

 

44 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

I think there's a difference BTW pedophilia and rape

There is.

 

44 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Some younger aged guys "consent" to these teachers, even though they are legally incapable of consenting. That's pedophilia.

No, that's statutory rape. It doesn't matter whether the minor actually (autonomously) consents or not, it doesn't matter if the perpetrator has a sexual interest in minors specifically or not - a minor having sex with an adult is, by definition, statutory rape. No "consent" and no "paedophilia" needed for that assessment. Which is why, no matter how many people think the male minor got 'lucky', the female perpetrator usually will be taken to court. Until now, at least, that attitude is not pervasive enough to make statutory rape of male minors legal. And I doubt it ever will, but I have been mistaken before.

 

Though, if you consider any adult person who has sexual relations with a minor to be a paedophile, then I suppose it's statutory rape and paedophilia. But, as pedantic as it may sound, "having sexual attraction to minors" and "having sex with minors" are not the same thing, and it's well worth the effort to bear that in mind.

 

 

41 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

I don't see this ever changing, as long as victims refuse to be thought-of as victims.

44 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

Not until the alleged victims start acting like victims.

I agree.

And, as unfortunate as it is, the same argument that is employed for all initiators of changes within the sphere of social acceptability applies here as well - the earlier outspoken victims will, to an extent, have to be particularly outspoken, have to swim against the current and be willing to subject themselves to potentially completely disproportional backlash. Which is unfortunate and unfair, but the only way I can see that has any chance to succeed.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Kumo said:

If that actually happened to your kid, YOU'D BE RAISING HELL. 

The scary thing is that I'm not entirely sure they would. I would hope so, because then it's 'merely' hypocrisy we'd have to deal with. But if not, the issue lies far deeper, and will be proportionally harder to manage.

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everywhere and nowhere

Actually, paedophilia is not "sexual attraction to minors". It is sexual attraction to children in pre-pubescent stage. There are some "transitory" terms, such as hebephilia - attraction to children in puberty stage, efebophilia - attraction to teenage boys, nymphophilia - attraction to teenage girls and so on.

Not every paedophile abuses children - there are some who realize that they would harm children and willingly confine their sexuality to fantasies, and not every person who abuses children (not just minors, but even specifically children) is a paedophile. It seems that most people who abuse children are frustrated and sexually demoralized heterosexual men who simply treat children as an "easy" substitute object.

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In America it's presented that men always want sex, and women are always asking for it. Summers are KILLER where I live (quite literally, you always know who just moved here because the first thing they bitch about is the heat), and if women so much as show their arms in schools they are written up. Because showing your shoulders is "distracting" for men. Also, women shorts have to be of certain length that is a ridiculous expectation because it's perpetuating that too much thigh is distracting men. I understand, don't go to school with your butt hanging out, but really? You're going to teach young boys and girls that you just expect a boy to be distracted by thighs and arms? It's teaching boys to sexualize women, and teaching girls that they are just sex objects. Things like that is seriously teaching male on female abuse because it perpetuates the "she's asking for it" and "men are always thinking about sex". Even worse yet, I wasn't kidding when I said the heat is killer where I live. Overheating is a serious threat here, but women can't show too much skin without risk of abuse. So you're forcing the girls to cover up in the heat and making overheating an even worse threat.

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6 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

Actually, paedophilia is not "sexual attraction to minors". It is sexual attraction to children in pre-pubescent stage. There are some "transitory" terms, such as hebephilia - attraction to children in puberty stage, efebophilia - attraction to teenage boys, nymphophilia - attraction to teenage girls and so on.

Not every paedophile abuses children - there are some who realize that they would harm children and willingly confine their sexuality to fantasies, and not every person who abuses children (not just minors, but even specifically children) is a paedophile. It seems that most people who abuse children are frustrated and sexually demoralized heterosexual men who simply treat children as an "easy" substitute object.

Nit picking pedophilia doesn't change the fact that as an umbrella term it's still sexual attraction to minors (age of majority NOT age of consent). The sub communities are just that, sub communities. 

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53 minutes ago, Plectrophenax said:

And, as unfortunate as it is, the same argument that is employed for all initiators of changes within the sphere of social acceptability applies here as well - the earlier outspoken victims will, to an extent, have to be particularly outspoken, have to swim against the current and be willing to subject themselves to potentially completely disproportional backlash. Which is unfortunate and unfair, but the only way I can see that has any chance to succeed.

Why is it unfortunate? If there are no victims, there are no crimes.

 

We are talking about sexually mature male adolescents consenting to sex with sexually mature female teachers. It is generally accepted here that the legal process does more damage to an alleged victim than the sex caused.

 

 

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swirl_of_blue
3 hours ago, Plectrophenax said:

The "men always want (or like) sex" notion is particularly annoying to me because it is really frighteningly easy to get that impression. From observations and even the occasional discussion with people around my age ever since the early teens it is a notion that is also upheld and reinforced by men themselves. And, as such, I would be extremely curious to know just how many men actually and sincerely feel this way. Not in the sense of trivialising what happens to others, I should say (because that isn't justifiable anyway), but men who would consider themselves effectively incapable of being the 'victim' of rape, because they would always be willing in one way or another. Not that any percentage would make it okay to assume that it applies to everyone, but it would be interesting to know nonetheless.

The issue of females sexually abusing males has come up amoung my friends sometimes, and I haven't heard a single male speak against it. Every one of them has either said something like "I wish I had been in his place", "that is SO UNFAIR, I can't even get attention from women at the bar" or "he must be gay", or been silent. No one has spoken against this. It's like the men I know can't comprehend that there could be situations where a man would turn down an offer of sex from a woman. Of course it could be that they're trying to conform to the stereotype of virile masculinity and don't mean what they say, but there's no way to know unless someone speaks up and disagrees with the others.

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1 hour ago, swirl_of_blue said:

The issue of females sexually abusing males has come up amoung my friends sometimes, and I haven't heard a single male speak against it. Every one of them has either said something like "I wish I had been in his place", "that is SO UNFAIR, I can't even get attention from women at the bar" or "he must be gay", or been silent. No one has spoken against this. It's like the men I know can't comprehend that there could be situations where a man would turn down an offer of sex from a woman. Of course it could be that they're trying to conform to the stereotype of virile masculinity and don't mean what they say, but there's no way to know unless someone speaks up and disagrees with the others.

I think you're missing the point. Egalitarians would have you believe the total harm, if any, caused by a woman who "rapes" a man is the same as what is experienced by female victims of rape. The assumption is the sexes are biologically and psychologically the same.

 

Obviously they're not.

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32 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

I think you're missing the point. Egalitarians would have you believe the total harm, if any, caused by a woman who "rapes" a man is the same as what is experienced by female victims of rape. The assumption is the sexes are biologically and psychologically the same.

 

Obviously they're not.

Well, if I had to be raped, I would rather be raped in a non-penetrative way by a woman than in a penetrative way by a man, but that's not the point. 

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21 minutes ago, m4rble said:

Well, if I had to be raped, I would rather be raped in a non-penetrative way by a woman than in a penetrative way by a man, but that's not the point. 

What, then, is your point?

 

Most of the folks here seem bent on ascribing victimhood to men who don't want it.

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Plectrophenax
5 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said:

Actually, paedophilia is not "sexual attraction to minors". It is sexual attraction to children in pre-pubescent stage. There are some "transitory" terms, such as hebephilia - attraction to children in puberty stage, efebophilia - attraction to teenage boys, nymphophilia - attraction to teenage girls and so on.

Not every paedophile abuses children - there are some who realize that they would harm children and willingly confine their sexuality to fantasies, and not every person who abuses children (not just minors, but even specifically children) is a paedophile. It seems that most people who abuse children are frustrated and sexually demoralized heterosexual men who simply treat children as an "easy" substitute object.

While I disagree with the first sentence, I appreciate the clarification. If I was going to be pedantic myself, I might as well have made that distinction between pubescent and pre-pubescent paedophiles as well.

 

 

2 hours ago, swirl_of_blue said:

The issue of females sexually abusing males has come up amoung my friends sometimes, and I haven't heard a single male speak against it. Every one of them has either said something like "I wish I had been in his place", "that is SO UNFAIR, I can't even get attention from women at the bar" or "he must be gay", or been silent. No one has spoken against this. It's like the men I know can't comprehend that there could be situations where a man would turn down an offer of sex from a woman. Of course it could be that they're trying to conform to the stereotype of virile masculinity and don't mean what they say, but there's no way to know unless someone speaks up and disagrees with the others.

Well, at least some stayed silent is all I can say to that.

 

 

4 hours ago, asexjoe said:

Why is it unfortunate? If there are no victims, there are no crimes.

It is unfortunate because they are victims, and atypical or uncommon victims relative to an established norm have to struggle more in order to be properly heard. I didn't apply the word 'unfortunate' to the fact that they don't consider themselves victims in the first place - that's entirely on them. I'm just saying that if they do they have a steeper hill to climb than they should have.

And yes, given the context of this thread, I would consider these minors victims (either of being abused - against their will - or, if nothing else, of statutory rape regardless of their degree of consent). I thought you were talking about how they see themselves, and how they often don't see themselves as victims nor demand to be seen as such, and I agree with that. But if you are saying that, if a person doens't view themselves as a victim, they actually aren't a victim by default, I would disagree.

 

4 hours ago, asexjoe said:

We are talking about sexually mature male adolescents consenting to sex with sexually mature female teachers. It is generally accepted here that the legal process does more damage to an alleged victim than the sex caused.

While the current topic does include sexually mature minors consenting to sex, it is by no means limited to that. It also includes sexually immature minors being coerced or forced into sex. I agree that these cases ought to be viewed a little differently, but let's not pretend the prior is all 'we are talking about'.

And I won't argue for the efficacy of the legal process, but I will say that this conversation is also about attitudes of broader society, and not just about getting legal recompense.

 

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everywhere and nowhere

Anyway, that's the point of statutory rape laws: people under a certain age are unable to legally give consent because they may not realize all consequences of sex. They may regret later. They may not truly want sex, but just conform to expectations - this way, the law is trying to prevent them from their own possible decisions.

Too bad all of the above may also very well apply to adults. This is what I mean by all tirades (elsewhere) against having sex for any reason other than truly wanting it: sex should be exclusively for people who are 100% sure that they want it.

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1 hour ago, m4rble said:

Well, if I had to be raped, I would rather be raped in a non-penetrative way by a woman than in a penetrative way by a man, but that's not the point. 

...I would rather not be raped at all...

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Plectrophenax said:

It is unfortunate because they are victims, and atypical or uncommon victims relative to an established norm have to struggle more in order to be properly heard. I didn't apply the word 'unfortunate' to the fact that they don't consider themselves victims in the first place - that's entirely on them. I'm just saying that if they do they have a steeper hill to climb than they should have.

You are saying they are victims, not if they are victims. You seem to be implying the state should somehow protect them against their will. I submit that, too, is a form of rape.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Plectrophenax said:

While the current topic does include sexually mature minors consenting to sex, it is by no means limited to that. It also includes sexually immature minors being coerced or forced into sex. I agree that these cases ought to be viewed a little differently, but let's not pretend the prior is all 'we are talking about'. And I won't argue for the efficacy of the legal process, but I will say that this conversation is also about attitudes of broader society, and not just about getting legal recompense.

 

The attitudes of modern society are much in agreement regarding pedophiles. Teachers who have sex with adolescents do not fit that description, which is why these claims of "rape" aren't taken seriously, at least where I live.

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