vega57

The "Sex" 'urge': Fact or Fallacy?

Recommended Posts

vega57   
vega57

Asexjoe posted this in the thread titled "Having Sex to keep a sexual":

 

Quote

I have spent many years trying to source this cultural compulsion for partnered sex, beyond what is required for simple human reproduction.

I've been awake for several hours thinking about this, so I decided to do a little research.  My research led me to various other forums, and I came upon several forum discussions about men who decided to stop masturbating.  Most of them reported an extreme reduction or a complete loss of libido.  That is, their 'urge' for sex, masturbation and orgasms was significantly reduced or eliminated. 

 

Then, I came upon 2 posts: (Neither of these next two quotes are from AVEN)

Quote

That would explain why im so hypersexual and need it constantly, cause im used to masterbating many times a day since i was a teen almost never missing a day

This guy surmised that his excessive masturbatory habits caused him to become "hypersexual".  I can absolutely agree.  But it was the next poster, who responded to him, who got me thinking: 

 

Quote

It could also be explained by your natural drive to reproduce

So THIS poster is saying that basically, that the reason the guy masturbates so much and wants sex so much is because he "naturally" wants to reproduce.... 

 

To that conclusion, *I* say, HUH ??? 

 

The first time I masturbated I was about 10.  I had NO DESIRE to 'reproduce'.  I had no idea that if I continued to 'rub' myself that my actions would eventually cause me to have an orgasm.  I didn't know what sex was or reproduction was.  And I wouldn't know for 2 more years. 

 

Some would say that my body "knew" and it was my body's way of 'gearing up' or 'priming' me for future sexual endeavors, because my body wanted to reproduce.  But how could that be?  It's not as if I was "horny" BEFORE the first time I masturbated...at 10.  Did my body want to reproduce...at 10?   It would have been impossible for me to 'reproduce' until I got my first period...

 

...which wasn't until I was 3 weeks shy of 15. 

 

So, I'm wondering if this 'sex urge' that people talk about isn't self-inflicted.  They masturbate.  They get horny, and masturbate some more.  SOMEHOW, they got the idea that their 'urge' is related to sex, and that their 'urge' for orgasms through sex means that their body wants to 'reproduce'. 

 

Not buyin' it. 

 

Not buyin' it by a longshot. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snao Çoñé   
Snao Çoñé

So...are you saying that humans don't have a natural need to have sex, but they create a craving by masturbating?

 

Also, are you saying that humans don't have an instinctual drive to reproduce?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ABryonJ.maybe?   
ABryonJ.maybe?

Social and cultural mechanisms can also create drives for sex just as indelible and demanding as any biological mechanism.  So there are means beyond the instinctual drive for offspring that can influence sex drive. To say that the sex drive is only caused by the need to reproduce is short sighted. I think if anything can be gleaned from Freud, which I don't think is very much, is that children have a sex drive of their own. While it may not be anything more than a slight interest in the physical differences between male and female genitalia there is a claim to be made for the independent development of sex drive and the ability to reproduce. 

 

Another interesting fact that was overlooked is the age of the people involved because when males reach the age of about 30 on average testosterone is produced less in the body, and as the primary androgen in males it would lead to a decrease in the sex drive. 

 

Sex is a rather complicated subject and as an asexual I feel very inadequate discussing it but this is just my thoughts so please don't take anything I say as any more than opinion. I used Freud for god's sake, that tells you how far I've gotten along in theories and science of sex and sexuality! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mermaidy   
Mermaidy

a couple of anecdotes aren't that convincing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57   
vega57
1 hour ago, Snao Çoñé said:

So...are you saying that humans don't have a natural need to have sex, but they create a craving by masturbating?

I don't believe that humans have a 'natural' need to have sex, nor do I believe that sex is a 'need'.  Having a libido doesn't mean that humans want sex.  They may want orgasms, but they can achieve this through masturbation AND...their desire (as opposed to a 'need') t have orgasms can be influenced by how often they masturbate.  Kind of like, the more they masturbate (to orgasm), the more orgasms they want; the less they masturbate, the less orgasms (and potentially with or without partnered sex) they seem to want. 

 

Quote

Also, are you saying that humans don't have an instinctual drive to reproduce?

No.  I don't believe it's 'instinctual'.  It's more learned

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snao Çoñé   
Snao Çoñé

So do you think that all humans are asexual unless conditioned to believe they want sex? Like, what's the difference between an asexual person who's said "No thanks" and a sexual person who's had sex (or masturbated) and liked it, so they seek more of it? Can people choose to be asexual like they can choose to be vegetarian, and grow out od any cravings for meat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Techie   
Techie

Being human complicates things because we have intelligence (sometimes debatable) and intellect. Animals have sex out of instinct. They do not go to sex ed class like we do.  Now humans too have the same basic sexual instincts as other animals but our intellect can override that if we choose. Our intellect can also initiate sexual instinct it we want it wants to. Add romantic attraction to the equation and things get very complicated. Just my humble opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sithgirlix   
sithgirlix

Here's a question, what besides libido would drive one to masturbate?  Just because it feels good?  Okay, so with that logic people masturbate because it feels good, and would have sex and desire sex also because it feels good.  This drive would just be to pleasure oneself and to feel good.

 

Now beyond physical need, couldn't someone be psychologically driven to want sex?  Not just the basic "to have children" bit since there's no reason for attraction to anything other than the "opposite" sex if sex was purely for procreation.  What if most humans are hard-wired to want sex in the form of sexual attraction?  Or are you saying that feeling sexual attraction and wanting sex with someone else are different?

 

From what I can tell, people want sex no matter if they masturbate or if they don't.  They have libidos whether they masturbate or not.  People I've talked to say they masturbate to get rid of that sexual urge when they have no better outlet, and I would assume that one's hypersexuality wouldn't be caused by frequent masturbation but rather be the cause of frequent masturbation.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57   
vega57
1 hour ago, ABryonJ.maybe? said:

Social and cultural mechanisms can also create drives for sex just as indelible and demanding as any biological mechanism.

Sex "drive" has been divided up into 2 categories:  What you can do, and what you want to do.  What you can do is related to physiology/biology.  Usually, a man can get an erection. But having the ability to have an erection does NOT mean that he wants to use that erection to have sex.  Unfortunately, many people seem to believe that a man's erection DOES mean (unconsciously) that he wants to have sex and reproduce.  Reproduction is seen as some unconscious desire that "drives" us to have sex.  Yet, it's been demonstrated over and over and again on AVEN and IRL, that not all people have this desire.  Some will say that the desire is repressed in asexuals.  But is it really?  This is where I just don't buy it. 

 

There may be a "drive" for an orgasm, but who said that the drive for an orgasm "biologically" means that it's caused by the unconscious desire to reproduce? 

 

Quote

Another interesting fact that was overlooked is the age of the people involved because when males reach the age of about 30 on average testosterone is produced less in the body, and as the primary androgen in males it would lead to a decrease in the sex drive. 

And yet there seems to be a number of men over 30 out there who will masturbate in order to "keep up" their libido.  Sort of a 'use it or lose it' attitude.  Makes me wonder how much of our "sex drive" is deliberately manufactured. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Math Otaku   
Math Otaku

Humans are creatures just like every other living thing on Earth. Of course we have a natural drive to reproduce.  I am aware that this seems odd since clearly so many of us are not heterosexual and only heterosexual intercourse produces children (ignoring scientific interference). However, I don't think that all humans' drive to have sex is purely learned.

 

Also, don't dogs maturbate? My dog humps a blanket and I've seen dogs in movies do it, though it's a joke then. So if human society teaches us to desire sex and get pleasure from it, what causes dogs to masturbate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Woodworker1968   
Woodworker1968
51 minutes ago, vega57 said:

 I don't believe it's 'instinctual'.  It's more learned

It is, and it isn't.

 

I never got the urges to have sex, but most people do.

 

What I believe is learned is adding a competitive dimension to sex, like you'd notice among many young men who consider themselves quite the sexual athletes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe
3 hours ago, vega57 said:

I'm wondering if this 'sex urge' that people talk about isn't self-inflicted.  They masturbate.  They get horny, and masturbate some more.  SOMEHOW, they got the idea that their 'urge' is related to sex, and that their 'urge' for orgasms through sex means that their body wants to 'reproduce'. 

 

Not buyin' it. 

 

Not buyin' it by a longshot. 

 

Thoughts?

For many people masturbation is an inferior substitute for partnered sex, because they derive pleasure from partnered sex beyond what can be achieved by masturbating.

 

For me it's the other way around. Partnered sex only detracts from what I want to achieve. It's partnered sex that is the inferior substitute.

 

I was a great lover when I was sexually active, which is why I did so many times -- to fulfill the physical needs of my partners. The problem has always been, in retrospect, that I got nothing from it I couldn't get by myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ABryonJ.maybe?   
ABryonJ.maybe?

You also have to remember that sexuality is a spectrum and using outliers, like asexuals and hypersexuals, to determine what the average person is like is not good methodology.

Now you keep wanting to conflate sex drive or libido with physical instantiations of sexual activity. You said that you yourself masturbated before you were able to reproduce, doesn't this at least suggest that libido, or sexual desire could be uncoupled from reproduction and still be an inborn part of the biology of human being?

I really don't understand why you are asking asexuals and others with no expertise in the field for their opinions when I'm pretty sure you could find out the facts if you really wanted to. I'm sure Kinsey or Masters and Johnson have looked into and studied this far more in depth than anyone else on this forum. Don't be lazy, do your research! You don't have to be a university student to find out the facts of the matter. I'm sure if you went to Indiana University or Washington University of St. Louis's web pages, the homes of Kinsey and Masters and Johnson respectively, you could find facts instead of opinions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jade Cross   
Jade Cross

I can see the discrepancies which does bring up an interestimg point.

 

In a purely instinctual way, if all species were hardwired to procreate (Note I say procreate not seek sex for gratification) then even as aces, we would still want to have an offspring of our own at some point which is the case some aces but not all of us desire this.

 

Now if we take it from a purely grafication point, if we aces dont seek sex on our own, it would make it seem like sex is less of a biological drive and more of a taught behaviour. I know this tends to generate alot of controversy but at the same time the "I did it for my partner/to be normal/to be accepted/etc" are so rampart that you really cant help but question the overall veracity of sex.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57   
vega57
37 minutes ago, Math Otaku said:

Humans are creatures just like every other living thing on Earth.

O.k. I'll 'give' you that one!  :lol:

 

Quote

Of course we have a natural drive to reproduce.  I am aware that this seems odd since clearly so many of us are not heterosexual and only heterosexual intercourse produces children (ignoring scientific interference).

This seems like a contradiction of sorts.  I mean, if we have a 'natural' drive to reproduce, WHY do so many people want to have sex...of SOME sort...and NOT want to reproduce?  Why is it that if sex for the purpose of reproduction, can happen at so many times when reproduction is impossible?  (such as, during a woman's period or menopause)?

 

Quote

However, I don't think that all humans' drive to have sex is purely learned.

I suppose this is where you and I will agree to disagree.  I could probably write a book on WHY I think it's 'learned' and not 'innate'. 

 

Quote

Also, don't dogs maturbate? My dog humps a blanket and I've seen dogs in movies do it, though it's a joke then. So if human society teaches us to desire sex and get pleasure from it, what causes dogs to masturbate?

Sure dogs masturbate.  But do they do it because they want to propagate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57   
vega57
20 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

For many people masturbation is an inferior substitute for partnered sex, because they derive pleasure from partnered sex beyond what can be achieved by masturbating.

 

For me it's the other way around. Partnered sex only detracts from what I want to achieve. It's partnered sex that is the inferior substitute.

 

I was a great lover when I was sexually active, which is why I did so many times -- to fulfill the physical needs of my partners. The problem has always been, in retrospect, that I got nothing from it I couldn't get by myself.

Yup.  I felt the same way.  I could give GREAT (so I was told) blow jobs.  But after a while, I was like, "What do *I* get from this?"  An ego boost? 

 

Once I took ego out of the equation, sex became 'meh'. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe

Giving up on sex was the last step in getting over my mother complex.

 

I don't have to try so hard to prove I'm a good man any more. I can finally accept sex will never give me what I really crave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jade Cross   
Jade Cross

Acceptance from a parent?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57   
vega57
30 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

For many people masturbation is an inferior substitute for partnered sex, because they derive pleasure from partnered sex beyond what can be achieved by masturbating.

 

For me it's the other way around. Partnered sex only detracts from what I want to achieve. It's partnered sex that is the inferior substitute.

 

I was a great lover when I was sexually active, which is why I did so many times -- to fulfill the physical needs of my partners. The problem has always been, in retrospect, that I got nothing from it I couldn't get by myself.

You're right.  Many people DO believe that masturbation is "inferior" to partnered sex.  But WHY????

I can relate SOME of the beliefs from religion.  And that's about as far as I get! 

 

As for what we can get out of partnered sex, you're right again (do you hate being right yet, Joe?). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sithgirlix   
sithgirlix
11 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I suppose this is where you and I will agree to disagree.  I could probably write a book on WHY I think it's 'learned' and not 'innate'. 

I would like to read that book.  I'm in the firm belief this thought would only relate to asexuals, aromantics, or those sexually-repulsed.  From all the advice given to me as to why I had such a dismal libido and almost no drive to have sex, for everyone I interacted with it was something that came naturally and they did not need to be taught that I somehow lacked.  Not that my parents didn't teach me properly or that I just hadn't been exposed to it yet, but that I lacked something others had.  Sure, this is pretty mean assuming that all normal humans have libido, but it's still the reactions I got from sexuals who never considered that someone wouldn't have a libido.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sithgirlix   
sithgirlix
1 minute ago, vega57 said:

You're right.  Many people DO believe that masturbation is "inferior" to partnered sex.  But WHY????

I can relate SOME of the beliefs from religion.  And that's about as far as I get! 

 

As for what we can get out of partnered sex, you're right again (do you hate being right yet, Joe?). 

According to my partner, it's not the same type of gratification.  He enjoys sex for the partnership of it, the joining of two people coming together and connecting.  Having sex helps him feel this.  It's different with me from others as I don't really reciprocate these feelings, but it's still different from just jacking off.  It's another person being with you and exposing themselves to you in a very intimate and trusting way.  How is that solely something derived from religion?

 

And here's what I get out of partnered sex: my partner's pleasure.  He enjoys it, and I like making him happy.  I have like a .01 libido on a scale of 0-10 and don't masturbate, and I don't get any physical pleasure from sex.  I don't mind having it, however, because it makes him happy.  He wants and needs it and I would be a terrible partner if I denied him that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe
6 minutes ago, vega57 said:

You're right.  Many people DO believe that masturbation is "inferior" to partnered sex.  But WHY????

I can relate SOME of the beliefs from religion.  And that's about as far as I get! 

 

As for what we can get out of partnered sex, you're right again (do you hate being right yet, Joe?). 

Atheist sexuals feel the same way about "intimacy" as the religious ones. I don't think it's religious.

 

There is some psychic need to impart sublimity and meaning to sexual intercourse, to extract from the simple act of fucking something better retrieved from within.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe
2 minutes ago, sithgirlix said:

According to my partner, it's not the same type of gratification.  He enjoys sex for the partnership of it, the joining of two people coming together and connecting.  Having sex helps him feel this.  It's different with me from others as I don't really reciprocate these feelings, but it's still different from just jacking off.  It's another person being with you and exposing themselves to you in a very intimate and trusting way.  How is that solely something derived from religion?

 

And here's what I get out of partnered sex: my partner's pleasure.  He enjoys it, and I like making him happy.  I have like a .01 libido on a scale of 0-10 and don't masturbate, and I don't get any physical pleasure from sex.  I don't mind having it, however, because it makes him happy.  He wants and needs it and I would be a terrible partner if I denied him that.

Is the intimacy maintained if, during the act, you read your Kindle? If you're talking on the phone? If you're updating your Facebook?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe
12 minutes ago, Jade Cross said:

Acceptance from a parent?  

A mother complex can be manifested when a son tries to be the father his father never was, or tries to be the son his mother wanted him to be.

 

He can waste decades of his adult life with this monkey on his back, as I did.

 

A mother complex can endure long after the death of one's mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57   
vega57

 

 

35 minutes ago, ABryonJ.maybe? said:

You said that you yourself masturbated before you were able to reproduce, doesn't this at least suggest that libido, or sexual desire could be uncoupled from reproduction and still be an inborn part of the biology of human being?

Libido does NOT equal "sexual" desire.  That is, it doesn't mean I desired "coupled" or "partnered" sex.  When we talk about "sex", we talk about partnered sex.  We don't say, "Gee, I had sex with myself even though it didn't involve penetration or being penetrated".  Having libido means that you have a physical desire for an orgasm.  That doesn't mean the orgasm you sex MUST "biologically" result in partnered sex.   

 

Quote

I really don't understand why you are asking asexuals and others with no expertise in the field for their opinions when I'm pretty sure you could find out the facts if you really wanted to.

Oh, REALLY?????  You know, it would serve ALL of us well to ask us how we feel about sex instead of telling us how we "should" feel about it.  And THAT is something the so-called "researchers" failed to do! 

 

Quote

I'm sure Kinsey or Masters and Johnson have looked into and studied this far more in depth than anyone else on this forum. Don't be lazy, do your research! You don't have to be a university student to find out the facts of the matter. I'm sure if you went to Indiana University or Washington University of St. Louis's web pages, the homes of Kinsey and Masters and Johnson respectively, you could find facts instead of opinions. 

BTDT.  *yawn*  I'm sorry, but as I posted to the above quote.   There have been VERY FEW researchers who have asked WHY a man or a woman wants/doesn't want sex without thinking that sex "should" be the 'norm'. 

 

Did it ever occur to them that maybe.....just maaaaaayyybeee...it isn't? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sithgirlix   
sithgirlix
5 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

Is the intimacy maintained if, during the act, you read your Kindle? If you're talking on the phone? If you're updating your Facebook?

No, why would it?  If I'm completely separated from the act I might as well be a sex doll and it's basically masturbation with a human body.  It's not a connection then.  Hell, it's not even the same if he has sex with someone else.  I can't exactly describe it as I'm not the one experiencing it and he's not the best at descriptions, but the connection is more psychological to him than physical.  I'm not just a sex doll to be used at his pleasure, nor am I just a friend he can have sex with when he wants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe
6 minutes ago, vega57 said:

 

 

Libido does NOT equal "sexual" desire.  That is, it doesn't mean I desired "coupled" or "partnered" sex.  When we talk about "sex", we talk about partnered sex.  We don't say, "Gee, I had sex with myself even though it didn't involve penetration or being penetrated".  Having libido means that you have a physical desire for an orgasm.  That doesn't mean the orgasm you sex MUST "biologically" result in partnered sex.   

 

Oh, REALLY?????  You know, it would serve ALL of us well to ask us how we feel about sex instead of telling us how we "should" feel about it.  And THAT is something the so-called "researchers" failed to do! 

 

BTDT.  *yawn*  I'm sorry, but as I posted to the above quote.   There have been VERY FEW researchers who have asked WHY a man or a woman wants/doesn't want sex without thinking that sex "should" be the 'norm'. 

 

Did it ever occur to them that maybe.....just maaaaaayyybeee...it isn't? 

That's always the underlying premise behind these "studies," that partnered sex is the norm and unpartnered sex is abnormal.

 

That's why I don't regard asexuality as a sexual "orientation."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ABryonJ.maybe?   
ABryonJ.maybe?

Asexuals are the minority is why we shouldn't be the locus of normativity. Not that asexuality should be marginalized either. 

Libido is the sex drive, it is a synonym. It is a difference without a distinction and arbitrary at that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
asexjoe   
asexjoe
3 minutes ago, sithgirlix said:

No, why would it?  If I'm completely separated from the act I might as well be a sex doll and it's basically masturbation with a human body.  It's not a connection then.  Hell, it's not even the same if he has sex with someone else.  I can't exactly describe it as I'm not the one experiencing it and he's not the best at descriptions, but the connection is more psychological to him than physical.  I'm not just a sex doll to be used at his pleasure, nor am I just a friend he can have sex with when he wants.

I apologize if I offended, but I was posing the question on the way to making a point.

 

If he simply stopped having sex with you, if he declared that he'd rather just masturbate, would you sense a loss? Would you be disappointed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ABryonJ.maybe?   
ABryonJ.maybe?

Sorry Joe, you are wrong about the orientation thing. I never made a decision to be asexual, I've always just been this way. Just because someone chooses the desire to have sex as the paradigm doesn't imply or mean anything about asexuality being an orientation.  One doesn't logically follow from the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now