Attitudes to religion/atheism

[Karacoreable]

I'm interested in the ways religion/atheism is discussed. It's just an easy way to explore how people deal with different opinions in general. It's good to know about that sort of thing.

 

There's only one reason I thought having Religion as a subject at school was good - face to face with people who think differently, you have to moderate your views, and express them in a way that won't insult others. Unless you're a zealot or something, but let's leave aside extreme cases for now. I witnessed quite a lot of people not knowing how to do that. Most kids in my class seemed to think atheism is clever. Anyone else come across that? I'm wondering if it's widespread. I'm atheist, I should say at this point, that's partly why it bothers me. The 'smart' kids in the class were most confident in voicing their negative opinions on religion, and seemed to view it as clever. But they took no notice of how that might affect others in the lesson who did have religious beliefs. Anyway some my best and brightest (physics) professors are religious, so in my view that refutes the idea. Personally I don't know many religious people, but I'm 100% sure the same attitude exists there sometimes too.

 

I think my main question is this. Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior? I mean, everyone thinks their belief is superior to some degree, or they'd believe something different. But it's this kind of arrogant way of looking down on others that I'm talking about. No openness to discussion at all. Are there places that you think particularly cause this kind of behaviour?

 

[Yatogami]

I think teaching about the different types of religion in school would help lessen some tensions born out of ignorance. As long as they didn't take an "Religion did nothing wrong" stance on it. I think they should teach them to be critical, but also both the good aspects, and the cultural and societal impact each religion gives. 

 

I don't like Atheism, not that I don't have an issue with Atheists. I just feel it does nothing for society, but inflate one's arrogance. It shouldn't be a pissing contest of what is worse, because religion really don't work that way. Religion was a guiding mechanism that helped humanity grow culture, and it is ingrained into us to cling to the notion of a higher power. It is just part of being human.

 

Religion inspires cultural practices, brings people together, creates meaningful social holidays, and inspires intricate and fantastic architecture. Most of western civilization was inspired by a lot of Pagan and Christian beliefs. It kinda makes me sad that its influence in art, society, and culture is dying. I feel that without religion, everything becomes bland, brutalist, and nihilistic. 

 

PS: I am a Buddhist

[Karacoreable]

@Yato God of Tofu I feel like if religion didn't exist, something else would be there instead, as a substitute for both good and bad aspects. Cultural holidays would be given other motivations, as would wars (thinking Crusade kind of thing there). I didn't really mean to ask why atheism or religion is worse, but personally this attitude is something I've only experienced in atheists, probably because that's how most of the people I've discussed religion/philosophy with identify. I'm wondering what sorts of environments make this attitude more likely to occur, mainly, and so wondered where people might have encountered the sort of thing I'm talking about.  

 

Having re-read my original post though, I don't think I made that terribly clear. I've edited it a bit.

 

Also, your name is brilliant.

[TheAP]

Yes, I have encountered that attitude from some (not all) atheists. Saying that religious people are delusional, bigots, etc. I have no problem with atheism, just with the attitude that your belief makes you superior to others.

[Rynn]

1 hour ago, Karacoreable said:

Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior? I mean, everyone thinks their belief is superior to some degree, or they'd believe something different. But it's this kind of arrogant way of looking down on others that I'm talking about. No openness to discussion at all. Are there places that you think particularly cause this kind of behaviour?

Well, I actually think that question is easy to answer. On YouTube there's a very prominent 'atheist' community that likes to attack online theists. Prominent figures are: TJ Kirk (The Amazing Atheist), Thunderf00t, Sargon of Akkad, Jaclyn Glenn, and a whole bunch of other people I'm forgetting about. They tend to be very smug and aggressive about their anti-theism and they are very popular among younger people (according to their watch stats). In recent years they've kind of moved on from atheism vs theism and have started attacking 'SJW's' instead. I think this community is the main cause of what you're describing, to be honest.

 

I have personally experienced this sort of attitude from a couple of Christians as well (not all Christians of course), although they didn't think of themselves as smarter, but rather as morally superior. Some Christians actually believe that atheists don't have moral standards, so they'll just rape, pillage and murder all around, because nothing will happen to them after they die anyways. I have seen this attitude in some Muslims as well (obviously not all Muslims blabla). I guess there's just assholes in every group.

 

P.S. I identify as an agnostic atheist (not the kind that says "Religion is stupid and wrong" but the kind that says "I don't know if there's anything 'more' out there and there is no way to know for sure.") and I don't agree that atheism necessarily inflates one's arrogance. I don't see why it would (unless we're talking about the people on YouTube that I mentioned).

[erf]

I've gotten this attitude from atheists before. I know that other Christians act like this too. I don't hate atheists though, most of my friends are atheists.

[Gloomy]

No religion makes any logical sense to me, but I don't look down on people who believe in religions. I have seen some of my fellow atheists act rude and arrogant towards religious people. I've seen that superiority BS in some religious people too. My sister has given me shit for being an atheist before. My dad's step dad was abusive but thought going to church multiple times per week and praying before dinner made him a better person.

[Anomaly Q3Xr]

I have encountered a lot of prejudice over the years from religious folk, because I am an atheist (secular humanist), and also because of my sexuality and romantic orientation (panromantic).  Not all religious people, and I have encountered fellow atheists who believe they are superior to religious folk.  I don't dislike most religious folk (aside from the prejudice ones).

[daveb]

No group has a monopoly on arrogance, and on the flip side, no group has a monopoly on humility either. It's all too easy to see the "other" as the ones with the problem and miss the decent people, especially when the non-decent people are often the most vocal or most noticeable. I'm sure most of us encounter lots of atheists, agnostics, and believers of all sorts of religions all the time without even knowing what their stance is because it isn't relevant, who treat people with courtesy. I'm sure we all encounter (I know I have) people of all stripes from time to time who are arrogant, pushy, "holier than thou" (or "non-holier" than thou as the case may be). In my experience the latter are in the minority.

[Plectrophenax]

1 hour ago, Karacoreable said:

There's only one reason I thought having Religion as a subject at school was good - face to face with people who think differently, you have to moderate your views, and express them in a way that won't insult others. Unless you're a zealot or something, but let's leave aside extreme cases for now. I witnessed quite a lot of people not knowing how to do that.

Unfortunately, I never had comparative religious studies, nor something like a general course on 'religion'. I only had lessons designed to explain and contextualise (reformated) christianity, because (supposedly) that was my area's 'culture'. I did learn to moderate my expression there, because it was quickly apparent that an inquisitive approach was only tolerated to a certain degree. It wasn't particularly dogmatic, nor did it set out to change the mind of the children there (it would have been illegal if they had), in all fairness, but it might well have been different.

Encouraging an openness to different understandings and stories is a good thing, and, to a certain extent, teaching about several religions at the same time makes it easier to believe in the feasability of coexistence. But I am not prone to deem it commendable to discourage children (and anyone) from expressing critical views. Obviously encouraging being non-insulting is a good idea as well, but I have had countless people feel very deeply insulted when I question the validity of their religious premises. I don't think I should be forced into proper conduct (defined here as polite silence) because some people hold certain beliefs particularly dearly. Especially not at school.

 

1 hour ago, Karacoreable said:

Most kids in my class seemed to think atheism is clever. Anyone else come across that? I'm wondering if it's widespread. I'm atheist, I should say at this point, that's partly why it bothers me. The 'smart' kids in the class were most confident in voicing their negative opinions on religion, and seemed to view it as clever. But they took no notice of how that might affect others in the lesson who did have religious beliefs.

It wasn't as common around my parts, likely because there weren't all that many staunch believers. This sort of attitude seems to be particularly prevalent in places where there is a religious majority or a very religion-heavy public space. But I have met a few people like this, though I agree it is a fallacy.

However, I can nonetheless see why they might feel this way. When you look at atheism as a rejection of religious faith (mostly because of a percieved absence of compelling evidence - and sometimes due to a dogmatic stance), it's quite easy to claim that an atheist and a theist - using these rather unfortunate terms to mean 'religious' in a more general sence - hold similar views regarding the plausibility and validity of most religions and faiths, except one. The theist will counter with that one faith being, in some way, an exception to this rule, being different in one or more relevant ways (like, say, being true), but to an atheist that's just one more baseless assumption added to the pile. From this perspective, an atheist has at least one (unfalsifiable) premise less than a theist, which might lead them to the assumption that this makes them more 'clever'. That they have, somehow, employed their critical faculties 'more'. Again, I don't think this is a helpful attitude, nor does it describe the dynamics between theists and atheists properly. But if one would like to be generous, a thought process like this might be what leads them to make such claims.

As for how it affects others, that's just how some opinions work. A vegetarian might feel very strongly that they are a more compassionate person than a non-vegetarian, and might express this. And while non-vegetarians are free to object to this, and the vegetarians might be better served to express their position in a way that isn't too hostile, I don't see any problem with the mere expression itself.

 

1 hour ago, Karacoreable said:

Anyway some my best and brightest (physics) professors are religious, so in my view that refutes the idea. Personally I don't know many religious people, but I'm 100% sure the same attitude exists there sometimes too.

It doesn't refute the idea if the people in your class meant 'clever' relative to religion and religious faith. If that's what they meant, they could still consider themselves more 'clever' than even the most high-IQ individual who also considers themselves religious, because that's what they mean by being 'more clever' - not to be religious. Even then I think it's fallacious, but pointing to a bright professor who is religious wouldn't refute them.

It would refute them if they mean 'clever' in a general sense. But that is so much of a blatant fallacy that I can hardly believe anyone would hold it above the aforementioned option. I'm sure some do.

 

1 hour ago, Karacoreable said:

I think my main question is this. Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior? I mean, everyone thinks their belief is superior to some degree, or they'd believe something different. But it's this kind of arrogant way of looking down on others that I'm talking about. No openness to discussion at all. Are there places that you think particularly cause this kind of behaviour?

Unfortunately, most religious people I have talked to have considered themselves 'superior' to non-believers. They feel closer to the truth - to reality, even, they feel like having a closer connection to the fundamental nature of everything around us, they have a better or more meaningful life because of it, their morality is non-arbitrary, they know about ozr metaphysical fates and thus know how to avoid or mitigate metaphysical punishments, etc. That sense of elevation is hard to avoid when expressing some (if not most) religious views, no matter how humble the tone is. Almost all religious people I have met have made grandiose claim after grandiose claim and considered the belief in these claims (the knowledge of them, even) to make a person 'better'. I know many many more religious people who are non-dogmatic and, to an extent, agnostic about these claims than I do zealous ones, but even they tend towards attitudes of superiority, even if they might not be overt and insulting about it. From what it seems like, it might just be a natural consequence of having a limited 'community' with claims to hold at least some sort of 'truth'.

 

And, just to be fair, I have met and extensively discussed with two hardcore atheists (the ones who claim to know atheism is true), and they fall into these trappings of feeling 'above' others as well. However, most atheists seem to be of the agnostic kind, and literally none of them (in my experience) have ever made a positive claim as to how atheism would make them 'superior'. Some might consider that an atheist has a different (and possibly 'greater') sense of 'awe' than a religious person could, but none have claimed that 'awe' is exclusive to atheists (as I have heard religious people claim), nor that a different sense of it makes them better. Some do consider their outlook on nature to be 'purer' or outright 'more correct', but that has more to do with accepting naturalism as the best means of describing it, and less about dismissing religiosity outright. One can be religious and a naturalist.

 

 

1 hour ago, Yato God of Tofu said:

I think teaching about the different types of religion in school would help lessen some tensions born out of ignorance. As long as they didn't take an "Religion did nothing wrong" stance on it. I think they should teach them to be critical, but also both the good aspects, and the cultural and societal impact each religion gives. 

What's a 'good' aspect to religion, for example? I think there are plenty of great things that have come out of religious practices, but, on a technical level, those seem to me to be commendable as 'social' forces, cultural values, personal attitudes. I have a hard time believing that it's reasonable to make arguments for the religious premises behind these practices as opposed to the practices themselves. I can, for example, 'turn the other cheek' and respect that mentality without the metaphysical claims that, supposedly, back it up. Is that what you were going for?

And yes, teaching critical assessment in this case is vital, since it's the only way to counter indoctrination with any chance of success. Teaching about social and cultural impact is very important as well, though I would consider that could be done in the context of a history or sociology class, not one designated for 'religion' itself. And obviously what must also be taught are the things enabled by religions that we might find disagreeable or outright immoral, without sugarcoating it or reasoning responsibility of the faith away. Religion is only a worthwhile subject of study if studied as impartially as possible.

 

1 hour ago, Yato God of Tofu said:

I don't like Atheism, not that I don't have an issue with Atheists. I just feel it does nothing for society, but inflate one's arrogance. It shouldn't be a pissing contest of what is worse, because religion really don't work that way. Religion was a guiding mechanism that helped humanity grow culture, and it is ingrained into us to cling to the notion of a higher power. It is just part of being human.

Well, 'atheism', for the most part, doesn't claim to be anything more than a rejection of theism. It would be difficult to effectively create cultures and customs and art on the basis of that one notion. The best you might get is something like 'secular holidays' or more explicit repurposing of religiosity, like the atheistic 'satanists' do.

Atheism does also not inherently inflate one's arrogance, I would argue. Nor is it inherently tied to strong anti-religious sentiments.

And believing in the notion of a higher power is a strong tendency of humans, but it is not a universal. I do not have this inclination (though, with you being a buddhist, the closest I get to something similar might be easier for you to understand than for a theist).

 

1 hour ago, Yato God of Tofu said:

Religion inspires cultural practices, brings people together, creates meaningful social holidays, and inspires intricate and fantastic architecture. Most of western civilization was inspired by a lot of Pagan and Christian beliefs. It kinda makes me sad that its influence in art, society, and culture is dying. I feel that without religion, everything becomes bland, brutalist, and nihilistic.

I don't consider religious holidays to be 'meaningful', let alone for religious reasons. At best, I have come to find them 'meaningful' for some things they encourage (like the togetherness of family) and less so for others. The same goes for culture. I don't hold any 'christian' values because they are christian values. I hold them because I agree with them. And naturally a big part of this is that religion has dominated culture through large portions of history, but that itself doesn't validate any given religion in the slightest.

I won't disagree when it comes to art and architecture, even if it's hard to say whether even just most of it was 'inspired' by it, or merely 'informed' by it. And while I don't think a non-religious world would be bland, brutalist and nihilistic, chances are that art and architecture loses some of its pomp and gravitas when it makes no claims beyond the secular. Still, as a non-religious person myself, I would rather be a part of a supposedly uninviting non-religious world as opposed to being forced into some sort of belief just for the sake of having a supposedly more colourful one. I'm sure a believing person would be prone to think the exact opposite.

 

 

1 hour ago, Karacoreable said:

@Yato God of Tofu I feel like if religion didn't exist, something else would be there instead, as a substitute for both good and bad aspects. Cultural holidays would be given other motivations, as would wars (thinking Crusade kind of thing there). I didn't really mean to ask why atheism or religion is worse, but personally this attitude is something I've only experienced in atheists, probably because that's how most of the people I've discussed religion/philosophy with identify. I'm wondering what sorts of environments make this attitude more likely to occur, mainly, and so wondered where people might have encountered the sort of thing I'm talking about.

I didn't really answer your question, did I? My bad.

Most of the people I encounter and discuss these notions with are students who bring up the topic either directly to me, or in my vicinity. I also tend to approach people who attempt to convert others on the streets (which are mostly, by design, religious people). In school, any of this was strongly discouraged. In my family, it is also strongly discouraged, and I tend to hold back quite a bit for fear of antagonising people too much.

As for the environments that make this likely to occur, I would still say it's especially in cases where one of the two 'sides' feels to be (unjustly) in the minority, and as such identifies as what they are with more fervour and determination that they otherwise might.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Laurann said:

Well, I actually think that question is easy to answer. On YouTube there's a very prominent 'atheist' community that likes to attack online theists. Prominent figures are: TJ Kirk (The Amazing Atheist), Thunderfoot, Sargon of Akkad, Jaclyn Glenn, and a whole bunch of other people I'm forgetting about. They tend to be very smug and aggressive about their anti-theism and they are very popular among younger people (according to their watch stats). In recent years they've kind of moved on from atheism vs theism and have started attacking 'SJW's' instead. I think this community is the main cause of what you're describing, to be honest.

I only really know thunderf00t from the names you've listed, and he never struck me as anything more than an agnostic (but strong) atheist. He scrutinised creationists for their false assertions of the material world (relative to our current understanding), not anything more 'intangible' beyond that. I don't think it's unfair to be harsh when doing so, and I don't think there is anything wrong with this kind of 'attack'. But I might be out of the loop a little bit, so if you are referring to more recent incidents, I wouldn't know.

Aggressiveness will come from anti-theism, even if it's subdued. People who honestly think the world would be better off without religion will naturally feel hostile towards it. While unfortunate, I don't think this invalidates their position either.

Not sure why you put 'atheist' in quotations, by the way. Do you think they are insincere about their atheism?

 

39 minutes ago, Laurann said:

I have personally experienced this sort of attitude from a couple of Christians as well (not all Christians of course), although they didn't think of themselves as smarter, but rather as morally superior. Some Christians actually believe that atheists don't have moral standards, so they'll just rape, pillage and murder all around, because nothing will happen to them after they die anyways. I have seen this attitude in some Muslims as well (obviously not all Muslims blabla). I guess there's just assholes in every group.

Personally, I think the claim to posess moral superiority is a lot worse than the claim to posess higher intelligence. I think the notion that all atheists are the worst kinds of people due to lacking (percieved) absolute moral certainty is far more insulting that the notion that all religious people are reality-denying wishful thinkers. I don't agree with either position, obviously.

[Rynn]

25 minutes ago, Plectrophenax said:

Not sure why you put 'atheist' in quotations, by the way. Do you think they are insincere about their atheism?

No it's because they've kind of moved on from atheism on to more hot button issues like anti-feminism. They're not really about atheism anymore, so it's weird to still call them the atheist community.

 

25 minutes ago, Plectrophenax said:

I don't think it's unfair to be harsh when doing so, and I don't think there is anything wrong with this kind of 'attack'. But I might be out of the loop a little bit, so if you are referring to more recent incidents, I wouldn't know.

I'm also not really in on everything that happens in that community so I guess I can't really judge, but what I have seen hasn't been good. I don't know if they have become more harsh in their attacks (now aimed at the people they call SJW's), but their audience and influence has increased a lot, which puts the people who are under attack under more pressure. I personally don't agree with these kinds of attacks at all. I think it's malicious to single out a small youtuber and 'expose', 'wreck' or 'pown' them in front of your audience of a million people, a good percentage of which then goes and inundates the smaller channel with hate, doxxing, death and rape threats. There's a lot wrong with that in my opinion. I think it's possible and far preferable to deconstruct creationist arguments without attacking specific people.

 

Being harsh and aggressive while trying to deconstruct someone's argument will just send people into defensive mode, after which they won't listen to a word you say anymore. Being harsh doesn't change any minds, it just polarizes people. Discovery channel says so too:

Spoiler

 

 

[Peachyy]

4 hours ago, Karacoreable said:

I'm interested in the ways religion/atheism is discussed. It's just an easy way to explore how people deal with different opinions in general. It's good to know about that sort of thing.

 

There's only one reason I thought having Religion as a subject at school was good - face to face with people who think differently, you have to moderate your views, and express them in a way that won't insult others. Unless you're a zealot or something, but let's leave aside extreme cases for now. I witnessed quite a lot of people not knowing how to do that. Most kids in my class seemed to think atheism is clever. Anyone else come across that? I'm wondering if it's widespread. I'm atheist, I should say at this point, that's partly why it bothers me. The 'smart' kids in the class were most confident in voicing their negative opinions on religion, and seemed to view it as clever. But they took no notice of how that might affect others in the lesson who did have religious beliefs. Anyway some my best and brightest (physics) professors are religious, so in my view that refutes the idea. Personally I don't know many religious people, but I'm 100% sure the same attitude exists there sometimes too.

 

I think my main question is this. Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior? I mean, everyone thinks their belief is superior to some degree, or they'd believe something different. But it's this kind of arrogant way of looking down on others that I'm talking about. No openness to discussion at all. Are there places that you think particularly cause this kind of behaviour?

 

lol why'd you take the paragraph out about Dawkins? I wrote an entire response

 

 

[ChillaKilla]

Agnostic atheist. Y'all go do ya own thing as long as nobody's hurt. And as for myself? I don't think there is anything out there but who knows? If I had reason to change my mind I totally would

[Ruru+Saphhy=Garnet]

Yeah, I've came across both religious and atheist people act as if their beliefs/religion is more superior and the look down on others who don't have the same beliefs they do. They are not willing to have a discussion at all. You have some people like this in every religious belief (or atheistic/agnostic beliefs). :/

I am agnostic.  I acknowledge the fact that there is no scientific evidence for God, however, I think that it is impossible to know for sure one way or the other. I believe that there is a God. I deal with differing opinions just fine. Not everyone will agree with everyone's belief and that's okay.

[BionicPi]

(Athiest)

Honestly, religion confuses me. Like I can understand the societal motivations behind certain practices, and why a religious reason would be effective for social control, (especially historically with limited education of the masses), but I can't really wrap my head around belief. I don't understand why someone would feel that something must be true, even with nothing to indicate it (or evidence to the contrary). 

 

8 hours ago, Karacoreable said:

I think my main question is this. Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior?

I know my grandparents and aunt used to be rather scandalised when we would visit and not go to church... Beyond that, I tend to try to avoid discussing religion.

[RK800]

I'm a very agnostic Satanist and a member of Systemspace . link and the Satanic Temple. I do not actively believe in any deity as of current, but I don't deny the possibility of one's existence either.

I'm pretty tolerant, I got friends from many faiths. Never much had any issues with them.

[Guest]

I've encountered many who said People of my faith were delusional, there's no god so why we believe there is one, believe in some guy who heard voices and etc. I don't have issues with atheism on it's own, but their attitude they think their superior (christians and other religious groups do that too) then others while dismissing those who don't believe the same things they do is the only issue i've experienced with non religious folks.They're not very open to discussion either whilst they freely want to discuss their opinions with you..

 

I'm a devout pentecostal christian

[Was here]

Athiest here, I don't care what people believe in, they have the right to believe in whatever they want. I mean, as long they don't hurt themselves or actually have an undiagnosed mental condition like schizophrenia or something.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Actually I just thought, why do we look for a meaning in life or want a god or god-like thing to exist anyway? As humans, we always want more, so what happens when that 'more' is fulfilled? What if there is a god and we do have a purpose? Wouldn't knowing that purpose be kind of worthless since we always want more anyway?

 

Anyway, I kind of just see life as,"You exist, try to enjoy it. Find something that makes it meaningful."

[Cimmerian]

 

10 hours ago, Karacoreable said:

I think my main question is this. Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior? I mean, everyone thinks their belief is superior to some degree, or they'd believe something different. But it's this kind of arrogant way of looking down on others that I'm talking about. No openness to discussion at all. Are there places that you think particularly cause this kind of behaviour?

 

Most definitely. I run into both, but I feel like this stance is a little more prevalent among atheists (or at least they're louder about it).

The atheists like this seem to think they're intellectually more superior because of their belief, while the religious tend to think they're morally superior because of their beliefs. Then both think they're superior because they're "right".

 

As for places that I think cause some of that behavior: universities (at least in regards to atheists holding this view). Professors tend to be extremely condescending to non-atheistic views and often act like there is no room for other views on religion and to think otherwise makes you uncultured, of lesser intelligence, and undeserving of any reasonable consideration.

 

 

2 hours ago, BionicPi said:

(Athiest)

Honestly, religion confuses me. Like I can understand the societal motivations behind certain practices, and why a religious reason would be effective for social control, (especially historically with limited education of the masses), but I can't really wrap my head around belief. I don't understand why someone would feel that something must be true, even with nothing to indicate it (or evidence to the contrary).

A mini-me! I would've said the exact same thing.

[Plectrophenax]

6 hours ago, ChillaKilla said:

Agnostic atheist. Y'all go do ya own thing as long as nobody's hurt. And as for myself? I don't think there is anything out there but who knows? If I had reason to change my mind I totally would

I think this is an emminently reasonable position, and I'm glad to say that most people who are fairly close to me hold a position identical or very similar to this (religiously minded or not).

 

Unfortunately, I myself am not sure how reasonable it is to stand idly by when systems of belief are legitimised on the back of very charitable and humane outlooks like this. I can't even count how often otherwise reasonable people have attempted to deny the possibility of a system of faith that necessitates people getting hurt - and that is, to me, such an uncontroversial statement that I haven't even deemed it necessary to mention in the 'controversial opinions' thread - or how often the 'bad' aspects of religions are argued away by blaming individuals, or just human nature in general. This simply won't do. A religion, in its most general understanding, is not bound to certain commandments or ethical positions (as little as 'religious person' is synonymous with 'a morally upstanding person'). They can be cruel and destructive (often towards the outgroup, but the ingroup is not always safe either) as well. I think most people can realise when this happens, and are happy to denounce certain practices where they break certain laws. But why then also go out of one's way to stress that it isn't the belief that is thusly denounced? Just because people can't (usually) be persecuted for their beliefs - and thank goodness for that - doesn't mean that they must be accepted and cannot be denounced. If a religious group believed it is correct to poison the food of others, I would denounce not just the people who go out poisoning food, but also those who do not, yet still believe it. And just like that, it has become impossible to me to be accepting of any person's (religious) position by default, even when nobody seems to be harmed directly by that person in particular. So, as much as I like the sentiment you express, and as much as I appreciate the people who agree with you, I fear that I can't.

(This is leaving aside the notion of child indoctrination, which is one of the things I feel most strongly about and one of the relatively few things that actually make me physically upset. And, of course, this is not a uniquely religious problem, but it is a problem inherent to most religions.)

 

 

58 minutes ago, Jayce said:

They're not very open to discussion either whilst they freely want to discuss their opinions with you..

I would be open to and interested in discussion, and I'm not even all that keen on having my opinions be the focal point. I would be very interested to hear about the intricacies of your beliefs, how strongly and on what grounds you hold them, and what you think of other belief systems and their arguments, or the rejection of belief systems in general.

If you ever feel inclined to this sort of exchange, my PM box is always open. I can perfectly understand if this is not the medium you would like to use for this sort of discussion, or if I'm not the kind of person you would like to have it with, but the offer still stands nonetheless.

 

 

8 hours ago, Laurann said:

No it's because they've kind of moved on from atheism on to more hot button issues like anti-feminism. They're not really about atheism anymore, so it's weird to still call them the atheist community.

Well, I'm sure there are still people who focus uniquely on atheism on that platform. But the ones you listed do seem to be very popular, and if many atheists get their information from these types, I can see why one would notice an increase in smugness, as it were.

Still, as much as tone has to be taken as it comes (in most scenarios), what is being said can always be disputed. Provided they are open to discussion, the particularly fervent believers of any kind of notion often turn out to offer the most fruitful exchanges - even if, nine times out of ten, you'll end up agreeing to disagree.

As for dogpiling or punching-down, I don't see an easy answer. As much as I would like to advocate for a civil tone and be done with it, many people will not be able to not come across as hostile (or even just being interpreted that way, justly or not) when it comes to certain positions. And while it would be decent of these 'attackers' to argue against an argument devoid of the person who put it forward, it is actually more honest to let the people who hold the argument themselves express it - which is hard to do if you don't want to 'single' this out. What I find to be malicious is anything that goes beyond the discussion of the arguments themselves. And I don't think that a person with a large following and a harsh way of expressing their (reasoned) positions is being malicious just because they chose to address someone who is less well-known. They can be, of course, but they don't have to be.

That said, on YouTube there is also money involved, so that has a chance of changing most of the dynamics quite significantly.

 

8 hours ago, Laurann said:

Being harsh and aggressive while trying to deconstruct someone's argument will just send people into defensive mode, after which they won't listen to a word you say anymore. Being harsh doesn't change any minds, it just polarizes people. Discovery channel says so too:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Without having seen the video (yet), I agree that it is not usually a useful debate tactic if it can be avoided. Disregarding obvious flaws like ad hominem attacks or false equivalences, even just snark and a dismissive tone can be uncalled for and detrimental. I don't think they ever take away from any given argument (uness, of course, they are the argument), but it's still unnecessary and makes the number of productively receptive people needlessly small.

But, as said above, some issues will simply be unable to avoid coming across as harsh and even aggressive. People who genuinely belive the world would be better off without religion will sound harsh to anyone who isn't inclined to agree, even if they are taking the time to explain their reasoning openly and clearly and might even be open to critical counter-arguments. Which is why, while I agree with you on it's lacking effectiveness, I also think that it is something that can't always be avoided, and as such must be overlooked (not 'overlooked' but 'dealt with', as it were) to a certain extent. The only alternative to this would be to advocate for people who hold fringe positions like that to simply not express them, and that's a far worse option in my opinion.

[Ruru+Saphhy=Garnet]

10 hours ago, Jayce said:

I've encountered many who said People of my faith were delusional, there's no god so why we believe there is one, believe in some guy who heard voices and etc. I don't have issues with atheism on it's own, but their attitude they think their superior (christians and other religious groups do that too) then others while dismissing those who don't believe the same things they do is the only issue i've experienced with non religious folks.They're not very open to discussion either whilst they freely want to discuss their opinions with you..

 

I'm a devout pentecostal christian

I'm Christian too, and had an encounter with someone like that :/

At least he was somewhat open to discussion, but still..

The nerve of some people 

[arekathevampyre]

there was a friend who encouraged me to go to church with her many times but I politely decline each time , because I have different beliefs (but at the time not really , still finding out in which deity I believe in) but that's it . Lucky she wasn't pushy or anything . 

 

I am interested in world religion too !! 

 

not trying to do anything funny here but is satanism a religion ?? Just curious 

[QuirkyGeek]

13 minutes ago, arekathevampyre said:

not trying to do anything funny here but is satanism a religion ?? Just curious 

I recently found the official website for it. I thought it was a joke before, but apparently not. It's also not as bad as I thought it would be. Don't tell anyone I said that. 

 

The official website.

[arekathevampyre]

4 minutes ago, QuirkyGeek said:

I recently found the official website for it. I thought it was a joke before, but apparently not. It's also not as bad as I thought it would be. Don't tell anyone I said that. 

 

The official website.

it looks more badass than I thought it will be lolol

I think I have ever read through the faq before and apparently they are not afflicated with the devil at all . interesting . but that's it , not gonna go deeper ....

 

and yeah I won't tell anyone . and you too ... keep it between us ... shhh...

[The Joker]

I find religious beliefs to make no sense at all, and I have a belief that those who practice religion are looking for a way to fill an inner void, or simply as a means to explain away an aspect(s) of reality they really can't stomach. That being said, I don't think I'm better than them just because of that. I am willing to listen to people if I feel that they could offer something insight into something (you can usually tell whether or not they're gonna be insightful or just preach to you).

[Busrider]

Religion is a topic that usually shouldn't be discussed but sorted into the same drawer as porn collections. - You might have one but if so, you shouldn't be bragging about it. Always keep in mind: Holy wars are even messier than soccer hooliganism!

On ‎30‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 5:44 PM, Karacoreable said:

Have you encountered, either online or offline, people with attitudes that their beliefs/religion is superior? I mean, everyone thinks their belief is superior to some degree, or they'd believe something different. But it's this kind of arrogant way of looking down on others that I'm talking about. No openness to discussion at all. Are there places that you think particularly cause this kind of behaviour?

I wasn't offered a job documenting the war against ISIS. I also never traveled to the more violent Irish border, but there is a recent trend in Europe to yell "my deity is the greatest!" and kill or hurt every bystander in reach. 

To me "religion!" is an alternative fast forward button for futile discussions, just like "peanuts!".

What I am trying to express by that statement: Everybody is entitled to hold some less rational believes & principles and everybody else should respect those as long as they somehow respect the other person at all. 

It is OK to ask somebody with a different religion details about it out of respectful curiosity. - Don't expect an answer beyond what they are doing when and how. If a convincing(!) "why" could be added, the entire thing either wouldn't be an religion or you are talking to it's missionary. 

[Plectrophenax]

51 minutes ago, Busrider said:

It is OK to ask somebody with a different religion details about it out of respectful curiosity. - Don't expect an answer beyond what they are doing when and how. If a convincing(!) "why" could be added, the entire thing either wouldn't be an religion or you are talking to it's missionary. 

I can't say I agree. I am of the, perhaps unfounded, conviction that people usually hold opinions for a reason, and because religiosity is something rather foreign to me, it is particularly interesting to hear the specific beliefs and how strongly they are held and how people came to hold them in the first place. I do not expect them to convince me (and I have no intention of convincing them), but I nonetheless find that addressing these points openly can be very fruitful. The best this has given me so far was to have people who blindly accepted a belief to start valuing reflecting on them as well (which is, I think, a step forward). The worst was closer to someone barricading themselves away from these questions, but I'd argue it was still worth a try.

Regardless, I would really rather not have something as deep-rooted and important as religion be relegated to complete privacy. I would agree if religiosity were to only manifest itself privately and personally, but it doesn't.

 

5 hours ago, arekathevampyre said:

not trying to do anything funny here but is satanism a religion ?? Just curious

5 hours ago, QuirkyGeek said:

I recently found the official website for it. I thought it was a joke before, but apparently not. It's also not as bad as I thought it would be. Don't tell anyone I said that. 

5 hours ago, arekathevampyre said:

it looks more badass than I thought it will be lolol

I think I have ever read through the faq before and apparently they are not afflicated with the devil at all . interesting . but that's it , not gonna go deeper ....

 

and yeah I won't tell anyone . and you too ... keep it between us ... shhh...

The question of what constitutes a religion is a very open one. Technically, anything can be consdered a religion if it's communal and doctrinal. Many consider that there must be a supernatural/transcendental element to it, but I'll leave that open here.

Satanism is, if I recall, atheistic. They simply use christian iconography and symbolism to express their distinctly 'real' (as opposed to 'idealised') understanding of the universe and humanity's place therein. It has a lot of interesting teachings as far as a philosophy goes, but I can't say I much appreciate the deliberate co-option and provocation of other religions, nor the overall framing as a 'religion' in general. But it is rather facinating. Don't be scared away from studying it a little simply because they call themselves "satanists"

[SorryNotSorry]

I'm of the opinion that kids shouldn't be shoehorned into ANY religion until they're able to grasp what religions are about, and then they should be allowed to choose for themselves. 18 is the arbitrary age in many countries.

 

Unfortunately some religious leaders consider this to be apostasy and a threat to their faiths. But what are congregants supposed to do?

 

Many of us have heard over and over on the news about Catholic church officials getting busted for having sex with children. That's repugnant enough, but then some church officials have the temerity to bad-mouth congregants for severing ties to the church because they don't want to be associated with an institution in which such things occurred. Muslims never even get a chance to get that far, in a sense. Muhammad said that if a person decides to become a Muslim, they're in for good. So a child raised in a Muslim family doesn't have much of a choice.

[A mere monkey]

I'm an atheist, and admittedly was kind of smug about religion back in the day. However I no longer mind. Believe what you want, just leave me alone. And that goes for both sides, since some atheists seem to go out of their way to ridicule religious people.

[Karacoreable]

On 30/07/2017 at 10:03 PM, Peachyy said:

lol why'd you take the paragraph out about Dawkins? I wrote an entire response

 

 

Go for it! I'm still interested, I just thought it was obscuring my original question a little. I'm definitely curious about why he's so prominent, his particular brand of communication seems excessive to me.